Warhammer 7th ed. review posted

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**fellblade**

A friend of mine sent me this link to a review of the new 7th ed. Fantasy rules.

http://folk.ntnu.no/tarjeia/avian/misc/seventh.htm

**fellblade**

I am trying to stay unbiased until I have my own copy in hand and have played a few games, but I really don't like what I am hearing. I think Warhammer may have gotten dumbed-down.

**bigchris1313**

Sounds interesting. Too bad to hear that bows still suck, but I guess there just isn't much love for HE archers.

And am I correct that it sounds like GWs will no longer work while mounted or something? Mounted GWs are going to be neutered somehow, but because questing knights just got new rules and models, maybe the rule just applies to characters?

Anyone have any insight?

**Manfred von Drakken**

In 6th edition there were lines saying you were not to abuse the rules by declaring impossible charges or whether or not you were allowed to overguess with war machines.

These should go without saying.

**bigchris1313**

In 6th edition there were lines saying you were not to abuse the rules by declaring impossible charges or whether or not you were allowed to overguess with war machines.

These should go without saying.

I'm with Manfred. Deliberately overguessing or declaring a 30" charge on the Ratling gun will get you tanked on sports/hit in the face/abandoned by your opponent. It's not really an issue.

**Manfred von Drakken**

The problem is, I know someone will try to declare a 30" charge and say, "But the rules don't say I can't anymore," and I'm going to feel the urge to hit him.

Now, I've seen on many occasions a player declaring a charge they weren't quite sure about, but the charging unit was march-blocked, so it wound up not costing them anything. That I can live with, because you think there's a chance. Charging when you know you won't make it is wrong.

**Tyfe**

I haven't played WHFB since 5th ed. so my question might be completely stupid. So feel free to riddle me with generar shouts of n00b and whatnot.

Anyway, in 5th IIRC if you declared a charge, and didn't reach, you only moved a normal move, i.e. not the double distance that was the charge distance in that rules set. So there was practically no use doing a phoney charge, since that didn't really benefit you any more than from making a standard move.

Is there a new way of charging in the current set of WHFB rules, or have I completly overlooked something?

**nyarlathotep667**

No, in 6th ed it was the same; failed charges only move the normal distance. My guess is the benefit of such an action (declaring an impossible charge) would be to either bait out frenzied units in your opponent's army, or to reduce your own units movement if, for some reason, your troops would otherwise be required to force march (and therefore potentially prevent them from being charged next round). Though I'll admit, given my considerable inexperience with WHFB, I can't imagine how that latter instance could possibly occur (frenzied troops don't have to march move too, do they?).

**bigchris1313**

No, charges work the same. But if you charge the Skaven Warp Lightning cannon, it must declare flee as the charge reactions. Because you can declare charges on anything you have LOS to and "want to charge," you can charge it, per RAW, from anywhere on the table if you can see it. The WLC has to flee, and then you fail the charge.

Again, I've never seen it actually done, but in theory it could. But again, it will get you tanked in sports or smacked straight-up.

Aside from charging the WLC, I don't really know of any other way to exploit charging. But I really haven't played in any hard-core circuits enough to know what else might be out there.

**Tyfe**

Ah, so that was the exploit. Well, that one should be quite easy to fix in a FAQ... Ah, who am I kidding. Anyway, thanks for enlightening me, bigchris.

**Schepp himself**

Erm...if you are a fear-causing unit with high unit strength then a charged unit has to make a moral test...or it flees.
Nice to pull that off at the start of the game, eh? "My undead horde charge your goblin army, Good game."
But i don't want to know where your sportmanship scores would be after that... -100?

Greets
Schepp himself

**Ghaz**

Here's a supposed GW summary of the rules changes that was listed on Warseer

WARHAMMER 7TH EDITION RULEBOOK
RECORD OF RULES CHANGES - COMPLETE

In general, all rules text has been simplified where it was felt that it was unclear or overwritten. Some diagrams have been modified for extra clarity and new ones have been added where necessary.
Compatibility with existing army books was paramount throughout the entire process and has been 99% achieved!

The main changes are:

? Movement:

1. Charging units must now move to bring as many models as possible into the ensuing fight (from both their side and the enemy?s). This prevents exploitation with ?clipping? charges.
2. Clarified how to move fleeing and pursuing units. Essentially: pivot the unit on the spot to face the direction it?s going to move towards, and then move it the distance rolled.
3. Clarified charge re-direction. Units hit enemies other than the ones they charged only if the new target is in their way as they charge after the fleeing intended target.
4. Re-worded the Change Formation manoeuvre so that it refers to the width of the unit?s frontage and not its ranks.
5. Killed the Snaking formation, as it is an obsolete rule that has long lost its reason to exist due to the newer rules for skirmishers and fast cavalry.
6. Clarified that units cannot voluntarily move off the battlefield unless specified in the scenario that is being played.

? Shooting:

7. A unit can now shoot only against one enemy unit and not multiple enemy units in any case, no exceptions.

? Magic:

8. Power dice generated by wizards can be used only by the wizards that generated them and not by other wizards in the army. The dice in the pool remain available to all wizards.
9. The Miscast Table itself is a lot nastier and the wizards can actually die from a Miscast, with rather spectacular pyrotechnic effects.
10. Spells in the Magic Lores have been reviewed in an attempt to make the least used Lores more appealing and tone down the ones that are a bit too good.
11. The Enchanted Shield cannot be combined with magic armour.
12. Reading a dispel scroll does not terminate the dispelling wizard?s Remains in play spells anymore.

? Combat:

13. Combat Phase sequence changed. The player whose turn it is picks combats in turn and each combat is completely resolved, including fleeing and pursuing, before passing onto the next. This clarifies the sequence in which fights, fleeing and pursuing happen. This change has several repercussions, such as allowing units to fight twice in a combat phase if they pursue into an existing combat that has not been solved yet during that phase (fight, win, pursue/overrun into another combat, fight again). Units, however, are limited to one pursue/overrun per turn only.
14. Fleeing is now always done directly away from the cause first, and then towards the closest table edge in following turns. Fleeing troops can move through friends (causing Panic), but are destroyed if they have to flee through enemies (of Unit Strength 5+) or impassable terrain. This solves the complex issue of the movement?s direction of fleeing and pursuing units.
15. The number of models needed to receive a Rank bonus in combat is now 5!
16. Killed the ?Lapping Round? manoeuvre, but allowed winning units to perform a turn or change formation manoeuvre in combat, in order to bring more models into the fray.
17. Allowed the +1 combat res. bonus of the Battle Standard to stack on top of the +1 for units? banners.
18. Added the Insane Courage rule: rolling snake eyes on a break test means the test is automatically passed, regardless of modifiers. This can even override auto-break from Fear-causing enemies!
19. Defended obstacles have been toned down. Units attacking over an obstacle simply lose the charging bonuses.
20. Clarified the rules for units that re-enter the battle after pursuing enemies off the table.

? Psychology:

21. Troops engaged in close combat do not take Psychology tests!
22. In order to cause Panic, friendly units fleeing/wiped out must have Unit strength 5+.
23. Unified all Panic ranges to 6?.
24. Removed the Panic test for fleeing friends within 4? at the beginning of the turn (it has effectively been replaced by the Panic test for friends fleeing through the unit).
25. Immune to Psychology gives immunity only to Panic/Fear/Terror, allowing positive psychological effects to affect the unit.
26. Unbreakable has now a Swarm box-out, which makes swarms suffer extra wounds when losing a fight, much in the same way as Undead.
27. Use combined Unit Strength of all units defeated in a fight against the combined Unit Strength of all fear-causing units on the winning side to determine if they are outnumbered by fear-causing enemies.
28. Stupidity does not affect units in close combat.

? War machines:

29. War machines without a crew are immediately destroyed by enemies in base contact with them.
30. Cannon balls hit all models they go through when hitting skirmishers or war machines and their crew.
31. Grapeshot uses the flame template, has variable Strength (Artillery dice) and causes D3 wounds.

? Weapons:

32. Great weapons confer only a +1 Strength bonus to mounted models.
33. Pistols simply count as hand weapons in close combat. If a model carries two+ pistols, it has the 2xMultiple shots rule.
34. Hand weapon+shield extra pip of armour applies only when fighting to the front and not to the flanks/rear.

? Skirmishers:

35. They cannot march if enemy is within 8? (this rule now applies across all units, no exceptions).
36. They get a single change of direction during the charge.
37. Added a section about skirmishing units of monsters and handlers.

? Monsters/chariots:

38. They get only one pivot during a charge.
39. Chariots can choose to move through difficult terrain and obstacles (but still suffer damage).

? Miscellaneous rules:

40. Regeneration is now a simple save working exactly like a ward save, except that it can be taken after ward saves (!) and is cancelled by flaming attacks.
41. ?Always Strike First? has been standardised as a Special Rule.
42. Deleted the rule protecting Characters within 5? of friendly units. If not inside a friendly unit, characters are a unit of their own and can therefore be targeted normally!
43. Characters inside a friendly unit cannot be targeted by missile fire (and get ?Look out sir? if the unit is 5 or more models strong). This rule does not apply if they have Unit strength 5 or more. This allows characters mounted on multi-wound steeds (like Archaon, Tyrion etc.) to join friendly units without being picked out by enemy fire!
44. Buildings. Complete new rules for moving and fighting in buildings, including a spread on Special features (funky fantasy terrain!).
45. Clarified interaction of flying movement and terrain.
46. Magic resistance is passed from a character to the unit it joins and vice-versa.
47. Clarified rules for capturing Battle Standards.
48. Half VPs are now scored for units reduced to half strength or less, and not below half strength. The same is true of characters (so wounded Heroes yield half their cost in VPs!).
49. Units with Unit strength of less than 5 cannot capture table quarters, nor can they deny them.
50. Champion banners musicians and characters all equally have to be in the first rank (players are free to decide who goes at the back if there?s no space).
51. Clarified that fleeing generals and battle standards lose their abilities.
52. Clarified character-unit psychology interaction.

? Scenarios:

53. All scenarios have been either deleted or moved to the Hobby section. The rules section has now a ?Starting the game? sequence that effectively explains the Pitched Battle scenario.
54. The rules for deploying terrain have been expanded, creating a terrain-set-up pre-game phase.
55. The player winning the roll-off at the beginning of the game gets to choose the table side but also has to start deploying, balancing out the importance of the initial roll.

**bigchris1313**

Scenarios deleted or moved to the hobby section?

Does that make anyone else feel uncomfortable?

The pistol rule just nerfed pistoliers, and questing knights also got whacked pretty hard. And although I like the new GW rule in terms of characters, questing knights didn't need to take the hit. As far as the no pistols in CC, well, that just doesn't sit right. Well, there go the braces of pistols on all my Dwarf Engineers.

No psychology in CC also troubles me a little bit. A terror causing creature showing up or a random panic test because of stuff happening to friendlies nearby always made fighting combats a little more fun. Every so often a combat you had no business winning would break in your favor as the enemy ran from a panic or terror test.

**Dice Monkey**

I have to agree with the part about terror. Did they nix the rule about takeing a terror test if you are charged by a terror causer?

**fellblade**

? Psychology:

21. Troops engaged in close combat do not take Psychology tests!
25. Immune to Psychology gives immunity only to Panic/Fear/Terror, allowing positive psychological effects to affect the unit.
27. Use combined Unit Strength of all units defeated in a fight against the combined Unit Strength of all fear-causing units on the winning side to determine if they are outnumbered by fear-causing enemies.

My question is, why? If a unit in CC is Immune to Psychology, why bother figuring out if it is outnumbered by a fear-causing enemy? It won't autobreak! ...Must have own copy of rules.

Thanks, Ghaz, this is much more informative than the review I linked. My pistoliers got nerfed, but my Cold One Knights got better. And my group has been using the 'stand on snake-eyes' break test rule forever, but we didn't apply it to autobreaks.

**Thanatos_elNyx**

Posted By bigchris1313 on 07/30/2006 4:43 PM

The pistol rule just nerfed pistoliers,

Well correct me if I am wrong, but the Army Books still override the Main Rulebook in any clashes. Therefore Pistoliers still get their Fusillade rule since the rule is in the Empire Army Book. That being said they might change it in the new Empire Book but until then Pistoliers are still awesome.

**Longshot**

Solo characters can be shot with impunity. Hmmm

I hope that doesn't make it in. I guess it does pretty much end the use of the trollslayer list, but I suspect a lot of folks'd be jumping for joy over that.

Kinda spanks Alter heroes for wood elves, too. And any character that must remain solo in general. Eh.

I kind of think they ought to at least have some restriction. But whatever. Here's hoping my Pegasi heroes get to join pegasi units

**Manfred von Drakken**

Posted By Schepp himself on 07/30/2006 3:54 PM
Erm...if you are a fear-causing unit with high unit strength then a charged unit has to make a moral test...or it flees.
Nice to pull that off at the start of the game, eh? "My undead horde charge your goblin army, Good game."
But i don't want to know where your sportmanship scores would be after that... -100?

Greets
Schepp himself

The only problem with that idea is that the book DOES say that you only take the test if the charging unit is found to be in range.

In addition, someone noted that the new Pstchology in Combat rules prevent units from running away from (for example) a Giant after the Giant pursued/overran into them. This shouldn't be an issue. If read the 6th Ed. rules, you take the Terror test as the Giant makes its pursuit/overrun move, and the target might run before the Giant can actually hit them.

**fellblade**

but the Army Books still override the Main Rulebook in any clashes. Therefore Pistoliers still get their Fusillade rule since the rule is in the Empire Army Book. That being said they might change it in the new Empire Book but until then Pistoliers are still awesome.

Good point. Also, a careful reading of Ghaz's post indicates that units in close combat are not immune to psychology, but that they do not take psychology tests. Therefore the unit might still autobreak when outnumbered by a fear-causing enemy. Unless they display insane courage.

**jmurph**

Hrm. +1 S for mounted GWs. Interesting that mortal Chaos characters can take halberds and mounts and no rule currently prevents the two! I wonder if that will get an errata....

I look forward to shooting Nike Saurus, Trollslayers, flying Strigoi, and anything else that tends to run solo. OTOH, it will now be easier to hide my big mount guys in a unit. Nifty!

**bigchris1313**

And for the Dwarf and Empire players, this will stop the constant whining about cannon sniping being against the "spirit of the rules."

I still say Questing Knights got the shaft and no one seems to care. But that might be because no one takes Questing Knights.

**Manfred von Drakken**

Posted By bigchris1313 on 07/31/2006 10:43 AM
And for the Dwarf and Empire players, this will stop the constant whining about cannon sniping being against the "spirit of the rules."

I still say Questing Knights got the shaft and no one seems to care. But that might be because no one takes Questing Knights.

Good point about 'cannon sniping'. If there's been one thing I hate to hear people whining about... Wait... ::thinks about the Steam Tank:: If there's two things I hate to hear people whining about... Most people tend to forget that Gav wrote an article on war machines that clearly and plainly allowed 'cannon sniping'.

Do they even still sell Question Knight models? I don't know if I ever sold a single box in the short time I had them.

**Infantryman**

I was going to take QK, I thought they where nifty; but on the upside now I don't have to worry about buying them, as they're utterly worthless--my yeomen are better.

**Schepp himself**

I guess they will get a special rule that overrides that rule, otherwise...yeah, they would be shafted.

Looking forward to the new Rules. The lone models always targetable seems a bit strange to me. Well, I play Vampires (lone Necromancers) and Skaven (weapon teams) so
I should bother me. And from the look of it, Weapon teams are seriously screwed now. Sure, they were overpowered before, but that... I don't know.

Glad to see the magic section changed though. It was a bit dull for the Vampires to overpower the magic every game.

The "Handweapon+Shield" Rule is not only for Ws4+ Troops? Am I seeing this right?

Greets
Schepp himself

**Infantryman**

I didn't see anything about that, thank the gods.

I had really wished halberds would have gotten fight in two ranks, though. Would have given me a reason to take them.

**Gabe**

So, for the armies that have the choice, the halberd is a better option for a mounted character, compared to a great weapon. In 7th, they will have the same Str increase, but the halberd will let the character fight in Initiative order. Atleast for my chaos lord and champions on mounts, the halberd is now the obvious better choice.

**carmachu**

Well correct me if I am wrong, but the Army Books still override the Main Rulebook in any clashes. Therefore Pistoliers still get their Fusillade rule since the rule is in the Empire Army Book. That being said they might change it in the new Empire Book but until then Pistoliers are still awesome.

Dubtful. Since it was a sixth edition army boopk, 7th edition rules hold sway.

Like when 4th ed 40k came out, their universal rules overrode everything in army books.

**Stu-Rat**

I have to agree with carmachu. GW's policy is, and always has been, the new trumps the old. Doesn't matter what game system, or what gets released, if the rulebook changes rules in an old Codex/Army Book, you go by the rulebook. If a month later another Codex/Army Book is released that changes the rules in the rulebook, you go by the new Codex/Army Book.

**Antonin**

Heh - if the bit about Defended obstacles is true, then dwarf Master Engineers are once again relegated to the dustheap. Their really bit change int he new rules, that makes 'em worthwhile, is to make war machines defended. Given the changes, that's no longer relevant - even taking away the autofirststrike option of charging models doesn't matter, with the low initiative of dwarfs. Pretty funny, but looks like the dwarf army book was not made with 7th ed. in mind.

**Manfred von Drakken**

Posted By Stu-Rat on 08/04/2006 7:50 AM
I have to agree with carmachu. GW's policy is, and always has been, the new trumps the old. Doesn't matter what game system, or what gets released, if the rulebook changes rules in an old Codex/Army Book, you go by the rulebook. If a month later another Codex/Army Book is released that changes the rules in the rulebook, you go by the new Codex/Army Book.

True, but I believe that they also have a policy of 'specific trumps general'. If that's the case, then Pistoliers aren't screwed.