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If you don't mind using some Kasrkin as basic infantry, and vice-versa, I toyed around with the figures in your list and I think this is slightly stronger, though I didn't bother adding up the points. You are going to want a flag, some heavy weapons - especially lascannon - and about a dozen guys with plasma guns when you get the chance, because grenade launchers suck. Voxes are not terribly useful in general either. After that, either Chimeras and/or more infantry does the ticket. (edit - actually a Demolisher would be pretty helpful as well)

Doctrines: Close Order Drill, Drop Troops, Grenadiers, possibly Carapace Armour and/or Cameleoline and/or Iron Discipline to fill up points

HQ
Junior Officer with laspistol and close combat weapon, 4 Staff with flamers, drop troops
4 templates and deep strike

Elite
5 Storm Troopers OR Hardened Veterans - 2 melta guns, deep strike OR drop troops
(HQ and Elites both try to deep strike against light infantry/tanks respectively. Alternately, Hardened Veterans can infiltrate and the HQ can be held behind the line to flame incoming infantry before impact.)

Troops
1 Platoon
Junior Officer with bolt pistol, power fist, Honorifica Imperialis, Medallion Crimson, 4 staff, vox
(Keep this unit in base-to-base for a LD 10 bubble. Unfortunately, the PF sucks but going by WYSIWIG you should still pay points for it, cause it wastes I5. To overcome not having a Master Vox, just keep one to three of your non-Deep Strike/Drop units inside 12" of the Officer)
2xInfantry Squad - grenade launcher, vox
(spread out at first, but can bunch up for I4 if being assaulted/lack of enemy templates and dead officers)

5 Grenadiers - 2 grenade launchers, vox
5 Grenadiers - 2 grenade launchers, vox
(keep them behind the infantry to force your opponent to check LD to target them. They will go down pretty fat, however.)

3x1 Sentinel Squadron - multilaser, drop troops (and NO UPGRADES)
drop down to hunt flank armour

2xRuss

I like the ideas. I'll take a closer look at this list tonight, but I like the idea of drop troops. maybe not the close order drill though.

I have another question though. What if I took a Senior Officer HQ with laspistol and powerfist, with 2 staff with meltaguns and 2 staff take laspistol and CCW? would that be a decent counterassault? If so, I think that the eventual Infantry Platoons I'll be fielding will have the same configuration, except with a Jr. Officer.

I like the Idea of Drop Troop Sentinels - in that respect, are multi-meltas only for the Elysians, or am I better off with the all-around capabilities of a multilaser?

thanks again for your thoughts.
CK

Just to clarify, taking COD doesn't oblige you to bunch up all your troops - it's just a free point of leadership for an Officer, and the option of getting a free point of initiative.* Ditto Drop Troops - taking it means you CAN drop some units, but not all units should be dropping. Generally IG want to drop small, cheap units to do a bit of damage and disruption to the enemy line, whereas ten-man squads should be huddled around their lascannon and their officers leadership bubble, kicking out long ranged shots. I predict you'll actually have a pretty hard time hurting a lot of enemies with your infantry until you can get them some stronger weapons - plasma guns and lascannon primarily, though heavy bolters and occasionally flamers can be okay on boards with a lot of cover. (Heavy Bolters are the strongest infantry weapon against anything in cover the Guard have.)

If you're really concerned about counterassault, take Rough Riders. You don't have to use guys on horses, some people use bikes - just say they throw krak grenades like Tyrannic War Veterans so that counts as a hunting lance. 61 points for 11 S5 I5 power weapon attacks isn't too bad. (five riders with lances + sergeant for the extra attack)

Multi-melta Sentinels aren't in the main book, but if they're in Imperial Armour they're legal. I don't personally own the book and I was assuming your list was of the stuff you had assembled/ready. If they don't clock in at over 55 points, they might be worthwhile.

No IG officer will ever be much of a counterassault unit. Senior Officers are considered fluffy by some, but I've personally never liked them since they're more points than a Junior Officer for the same leadership. Heroic Senior Officers - or anyone with the HI - get LD9, however.

*Powerfists also give you I1 - so the Officer, who's an independent character, will probably be struck before getting a chance to attack. With a power sword and close order drill, however, he has I5 and so will probably go first, with a chance to take down an attacker although you should not count on his unit to do much damage to anyone tougher than a Tau or Grot. A lot of people avoid any upgrades at all on their Officer, but given HI/COD is really the only source of LD10 in the army, 15 points against the odd flukey S6+ template hit isn't too bad, and the 5 for the power sword can be half-justified by I5. If you want to use a guy with a powerfist, he pretty much has to be the sergeant of a walking or infiltrating squad of veterans as Commissars are a little expensive and they're the only other guys who can have powerfists without being singled out in close combat. (advisors are not characters)

Thanks for the advice. I had forgotten that Leaders can get screwed over in assault by being singled out. That said, I have taken those changes into account. I'll write up a third version in the morning. Here's what I've come up with for a 1200 points unit. I'll explain why I chose to take certain units over others.

HQ – 86 pts

Command Squad (Tank Hunters) – 86 pts

Junior Officer

                        Laspistol, Power Sword

            Officer’s Staff (4)

                        Meltagun (2), Plasma Gun, Veteran Medic

Elites – 212 pts

Hardened Veteran Squad (2) – 106 pts

            Veterans (10)

                        Laspistol +Chainsword, Grenade Launcher (2), Meltagun, Lasgun (6)

Troops – 602 pts

Stormtrooper Squad (2) – 144 pts

            Veteran Stormtrooper Sergeant

                        Hellpistol, Power Fist

            Stormtroopers (9)

                        Grenade Launcher, Meltagun/Plasma Gun, Hellgun (7)

Infantry Platoon – 314 pts

            Command Unit (Counterassault) – 124 pts

                        Junior Officer

                                    Laspistol, Power Fist, Honorifica Imperialis

                        Officer’s Staff (4)

                                    Veteran Laspistol + Chainsword (2), Veteran Medic, Meltagun

            1^st Platoon – 95 pts

                        Guardsmen (10)

                                    Lascannon + spotter, Plasma Gun, Lasgun (8)

            2^nd Platoon – 95 pts

                        Guardsmen (10)

                                    Lascannon + spotter, Plasma Gun, Lasgun (8)

Fast Attack – 135 pts

Sentinel Squadron (3) – 135 pts

            Multilaser (3)

Heavy Support – 155 pts

Leman Russ – 155 pts

            Hull-Mounted Lascannon

Total: 1200 pts

Doctrines: Stormtroopers, Grenadiers, Veterans, Hardened Fighters, Close Order Drill

Out of curiosity, does anyone know the points cost for a Multi Melta to be added to a Sentinel?

CK

This list is... awful. I'm sorry, it's just horrendous. In every way. It's disjointed, bloated, incohesive and filled to the brim with useless units and hopeless combinations.

Ok, from the top:

CHQ:
JO w/Laspistol + Power Weapon
Meltagun X2
Plasma Gun
Medic

This unit is just beyond awful. A Power Weapon on a T3 I3 Independant Chartacter. 5 points wasted. A Plasma Gun mixed with 2 Meltaguns. 30 points wasted. A medic who won't do anything. 11 points waste.

Your CHQ should cost 81 points and consist of:

JO w/Honorifica Imperialis + Iron Discipline
Standard Bearer
3 Lasgunners

... and that's all. Your CHQ should not be fighting. It should be providing an Ld9 Bubble around it with a re-roll thanks to the standard. it should be hiding, not shooting. It should be keeping out of any forms of danger. Keep 'em cheap, and keep 'em hidden. Weapons encourage you to place them in harms way, thereby giving your opponent free Victory Points for killing your T3 W5 unit. And never give Guard HTH weapons. It never works.

H-Vets:
Sergeant
2 Grenade Launcher
1 Meltagun
6 Lasguns

What is this unit doing? They're huge, full of expensive 8 point Lasguns, and have Grenade Launchers, the worst weapon available to a Guard Commander, and you've mixed them with a meltagun (?!) a super-short-ranged anti-tank gun. What is this unit doing?

H-Vets are best suited to being suicide units. 5-men strong, 3 Meltaguns, Deep Strike in, kill something, then die. These are just giant point sinks at this level. And you took two of these units. They're awful.

Grenadiers:
Vet Sergeant w/Power Fist
Grenade Launcher
Meltagun/Plasma Gun
7 Hellguns

Well, for starters, Stormy Vet Sergeants can't get Power Fists, making this unit illegal. Secondly, why are you mixing weapons? Grenade Launchers are a complete waste of the BS4 these guys come with, and mixing GLs with Plasmas or Meltas is a complete waste of the squad. So is taking full squads. In fact, as Grenadiers are so completely unmanouvrable, these two squads are a liability to the rest of the army.

Platoon Command Section:
JO w/Honorifica + Power Fist
2 Veterans w/CCWs
Medic
Meltagun

Hideous. Utterly horrendous.

A power fist on a T3 IC means that the JO will die before he swings. 5-man Guard units are not counter-assault forces. Giving them Hardened Fighters (which I have to assume you have) doesn't make them better in HTH, it just makes them worth more VPs when your opponent slaughters them. This unit is just awful... it really is.

Command Sections obey the same rules as CHQs - keep 'em cheap, keep 'em hidden. They provide Ld to the rest of your army. They do not fight.

Squad #1:
Las/Plas
Squad #2:
Las/Plas

These two squads are fine, but that's not saying much. 20 Infantry at any points level is pitiful.

Sentinel Squadron:
3 Sentinels w/Multi-Lasers

There's nothing wrong with Sentinels, but why a single unit? You have 3 FA slots - use them. Make them into a scoring unit each.

Leman Russ:
Hull Lascannon

The Hull Lascannon is a waste of 15 points. You'll never use it. You're better off spending 15 points on 3 Heavy Bolters, which you may get some use out of.

This unit has 40 'Elite' Infantry, which are mixed up, have illegal weapons, and odd mixed combinations that don't work. The Grenade Launchers alone have to go. They utterly destroy this list. The two Command Units are a joke. The Sentinels are inneficient. The Russ has a gun it'll never use. The only good things are the two Las/Plas squads, only because there's nothing fundamentally wrong with them - you still don't need Lascannons at 1200 points. Autocannons will do nicley.

On the bright side, you didn't take Voxes, so that's at least one mistake erradicated.

Also, not accounting for Hardened Fighters, this list comes to 1184, but that doesn't matter because this list needs serious reworking.

A word about your Doctrines:

You took Storm Troopers without taking any Storm Trooper units. Waste of a Doctrine point.
Veterans is only useful if you're going to take all 3 Veteran units.
Grenadiers have no utility. They're the same price as Storm Troopers, but have none of the benefits of flexability. Waste of a Doctrine point.
Close Order Drill is free. It's fine.
Hardened Fighters is one of the three worst Doctrines in the book (alongside Cybernetic Enhancements and Independant Commissars). Throwing 15 points at a HTH weakness doesn't make the weakness just 'go away', all it does is make that weakness more profitable for your opponent when he slaughters you HTH and reaps an extra 15 VPs per unit for his troubles. DROP IT.

Ok, so, what to do this with? Well, if we dump all the useless Elite infantry (even make them min size for the moment), and dump all the silly wargear, Veterans, Medics and weapons, we're back down to 765 points. I honestly think you should drop the Grenadiers completely and add another platoon. But, let's say you keep them, and we keep the same basic structure. Your army would probably be best with these amendments:

CHQ:
JO w/Honorifica Imperialis + Iron Discipline
Standard Bearer
3 Lasgunners

Hardened Vets:
3 Meltaguns + Sergeant w/Bolt Pistol
1 Lasgun

Hardened Vets:
3 Meltaguns + Sergeant w/Bolt Pistol
1 Lasgun

Hardened Vets:
3 Plasma Gun
2 Lasgun

Command Platoon #1:
JO w/Iron Discipline
2 Flamers
2 Lasguns

Squad #1:
Autocannon/Plas

Squad #2:
Autocannon/Plas

Command Platoon #2:
JO w/Iron Discipline
2 Flamers
2 Lasguns

Squad #3:
Autocannon/Plas

Squad #3:
Autocannon/Plas

Grenadiers (5) w/2 Plasma Guns

Grenadiers (5) w/2 Plasma Guns

1 Sentinel w/Multi-Laser + Searchlight

1 Sentinel w/Multi-Laser + Searchlight

1 Sentinel w/Multi-Laser + Searchlight

Leman Russ w/Hull Heavy Bolter + Sponson HBs + Extra Armour

Doctrines - Iron Discipline, Drop Troops, Close Order Drill, Veterans, Grenadiers


1200 exactly.

BYE

I took a look at your loadout for a 1200 pts list. It is far more efficient - I think I have too much Black Templars on the brain, which is my other army, in case you were wondering.

I think I trimmed the fat off of this list. I’ve got a basic CHQ with an Honorifica for a Ld 10 base, a pair of 5-man suicide Hardened Vets, two infantry platoons, one with anti-tank, one with all-around (sorry HBMC, but I just don’t feel comfortable using only Autocannons as my sole means of popping armor at range – I had to pack a couple Lascannons), two Grenadier Stormtroopers for medium-range anti-armor, and my two Infantry Platoon CHQ’s with flamethrower counterassault.

As for Doctrine points, I think I need to first defend a point of mine: I thought that in order to use Stormtroopers as Troops, I had to first take them from the Restricted Troops list – nonsensical, I know.

Anyway, I re-evaluated the Doctrines, and this is what I came up with:

Drop Troops – for the suicide Vets (and maybe the Stormtroopers, if I’m feeling ambitious.

Close Order Drill – I can’t believe I didn’t take this to begin with. What’s not to like about free +1 Initiative and Leadership?

Grenadiers – Both Stormtrooper Squads are tooled for anti-tank, to deal with a vehicle rush, charging Monstrous Creatures, Daemons, etc. Both are 8-man for increased survivability. I didn’t realize that Veteran Stormtrooper Sergeants couldn’t take Power Fists. Thanks for catching that too, HBMC.

Veterans – I’ll eventually get 3 of them when I work my way up to 1500 pts. For now, they’re my suicidal, Drop Trooper tank hunters.

Hardened Fighters – As bad as it is, I just can’t part with this Doctrine. Now, before you bust a gut, let me assure you it’s not going on any Infantry units. I just want my trio of Sentinels to be a little more versatile as they operate alone (On that note, I should have explained that the sentinels in the previous list were supposed to each be independent of each other and were not in a squadron. That would be pointless.).

On to the list:

Headquarters – 65 pts

Command Unit – 65 pts

            Junior Officer

                        Laspistol, CCW, Honorifica Imperialis

            Attendant Staff (4)

                        Lasgun

Elites – 120pts

Hardened Veterans (5) – 60 pts

            Meltagun (3), Lasgun (2)

Hardened Veterans (5) – 60 pts

            Plasma Gun (3), Lasgun (2)

Troops

Stormtrooper Squad – 111 pts

            Veteran Stormtrooper Sergeant

                        Hellpistol, Power Sword

            Stormtrooper (7)

                        Meltagun (2), Hellgun (5)

Stormtrooper Squad – 111 pts

            Veteran Stormtrooper Sergeant

                        Hellpistol, Power Sword

            Stormtrooper (7)

                        Plasma Gun (2), Hellgun (5)

1^st Infantry Platoon – 248 pts

            Command Unit – 58 pts

                        Junior Officer

                                    Laspistol, CCW

                        Attendant Staff (4)

                                    Flamethrower (3), Lasgun

            Squad Alpha I – 95 pts

                        Guardsman (10)

                                    Lascannon, Plasma Gun, Lasgun (8)

            Squad Alpha II – 95 pts

                        Guardsman (10)

                                    Lascannon, Plasma Gun, Lasgun (8)

2^nd Infantry Platoon – 224 pts

            Command Unit – 58 pts

                        Junior Officer

                                    Laspistol, CCW

                        Attendant Staff (4)

                                    Flamethrower (3), Lasgun

            Squad Beta I – 83 pts

                        Guardsman (10)

                                    Autocannon, Grenade Launcher, Lasgun (8)

            Squad Beta II – 83 pts

                        Guardsman (10)

                                    Autocannon, Grenade Launcher, Lasgun (8)

Fast Attack – 165 pts

Sentinel – 55 pts

            Multilaser, Hardened Fighters

Sentinel – 55 pts

            Multilaser, Hardened Fighters

Sentinel – 55 pts

            Multilaser, Hardened Fighters

Heavy Support – 156 pts

Leman Russ – 156 pts

            Hull-Mounted Lascannon, Searchlight

 

1200 Points, even.

I had to take the Lascannon on the Russ simply because I do not feel comfortable using the Battle Cannon as an anti-tank weapon, in addition to leaving the tank busting to my infantry. With that Lascannon behind AV 14, I feel confident that I will have at least one on the field when my infantry get cut to pieces.

Overview

Infantry: 81 models

Vehicles: 4 vehicles

Anti-Infantry Weapons:

            2 Grenade Launchers

            6 Flamethrowers

            3 Multilasers

Anti-Armor Weapons:

            5 Meltaguns

            3 Lascannons

Multi-Purpose Weapons:

            7 Plasma Guns

            2 Autocannons

            1 Battle Cannon

Let me know what you think. I'm ready to take suggestions on how to expand this list to 1500 pts, too. Thank you for your help, wight_widow and HBMC.

CK

Hmm... still some big problems...

"I think I trimmed the fat off of this list."

Not completely. You've still got 62 points tied up in Hellgun wielding wastes of space. The bigger your Grenadier squads, the more of a tasty target they are. Lots of easy VPs. Nothing changes the fact that they're T3. A Sv4+ does not change this, and often won't matter.

" I’ve got a basic CHQ with an Honorifica for a Ld 10 base."

It's Ld9, and you're missing the Standard Beare - that is a major problem.

"a pair of 5-man suicide Hardened Vets, two infantry platoons, one with anti-tank, one with all-around (sorry HBMC, but I just don’t feel comfortable using only Autocannons as my sole means of popping armor at range – I had to pack a couple Lascannons)"

The Autocannon performs excellently against all targets, and is actually better against AV12 than a Lascannon is. The only thing an Autocannon can't handle is AV14, and it's mediocre at best against AV13. It is an all-round excellent weapon. Still, if you want Lascannons that's fine, just be aware that they are overkill a lot of the time at small points levels.

CHQ:
JO w/Honorifica
4 Lasguns

This needs to change. Ignoring Iron Disipline in place of Hardened Fighters (which I'll get to later), you need a Standard Bearer. It is one of the most useful tools a Guard army can have, and at 11 points you can afford it.

Hardened Vets w/3 Meltaguns
Hardened Vets w/3 Plasma Guns

Fine. Nothing wrong with them. In hindsight 3 at 1200, as I suggested, is also over-kill. Two will do nicley. Also, the very fact that these guys exist make the Platoon Lascannons uncessecary. If your opponent has enough tanks to cause you to need Lascannon at 1200 points, then they haven't got much else, and you probably outnumber him by a significant margin...

Grenadiers w/Power Sword + 2 Meltas
Grenadiers w/Power Sword + 2 Plasmas

This is one of the places where I'd actually suggest all Plasma. These guys will make up part of your battleline, so the longer range guns they have, the better. The Meltaguns are over-kill. You don't need any more.

But this isn't the major issue here. The 40 points wasted on 4 unecessary Grenadiers (they only need be 6-man units) is a bigger problem, as is the 22 points wasted 2 Vet Sergeants with power weapons. These squads are costing you 111 points each when they should cost 80 each. Save yourself 62 points and lose the bloat.

Platoon Command Section #1:
JO
1 Lasgun
3 Flamers

Fine other than the fact that they need Iron Discipline, but more on that when I get to the Sentinels.

Squad #1
Las/Plas
Squad #2
Las/Plas

Again, nothing fundamentally wong with them. If you want to keep them, keep them. Keep in mind that 2 BS3 Lascannons = 1 Penetrating and 1 Glancing Hit per game vs AV14, and that's assuming each gun fires 6 times. You have a lot of Meltaguns and Plasma Guns (for side shots). Against AV12 it's 1 Glancing and 3 Penetrating. With Autocannons 2 Glancing and 2 Penetrating vs AV12, and costs 20 points less. In fact, for the cost of 2 Lascannons you can get 3 Autocannons, and 3 Autocannons gets as many Penetrating Hits as the 2 Lascannons, and 2 extra Glancing Hits.

Platoon Command Section #1:
JO
1 Lasgun
3 Flamers

Again, fine, minus the glaring omission of Iron Discipline.

Squad #3
Autocannon/Grenade Launcher
Squad #4
Autocannon/Grenade Launcher

No! Bad! Horrible! Hyperbole!

1. Never take Grenade Launchers. They are utterly useless. For 2 points more you get a gun superior to S6 AP4, and for 2 points less you get a gun superior to S3 AP6 Blast.
2. Never take Grenade Launchers!!!
3. Plasma Guns are the match for Autocannons. They're both S7. They can handle the same types of targets. The Grenade Launcher will always struggle to keep up.

Sentinel #1
Mult-Laser + Hardened Fighters
Sentinel #2
Mult-Laser + Hardened Fighters
Sentinel #3
Mult-Laser + Hardened Fighters

30 points wasted right there on Hardened Fighters.

Hardened Fighters – As bad as it is, I just can’t part with this Doctrine. Now, before you bust a gut, let me assure you it’s not going on any Infantry units. I just want my trio of Sentinels to be a little more versatile as they operate alone

Hardened Fighters does nothing to make these units versitile. Sentinels are good units. The Multi-Laser is a fantstic weapon. They don't need any help. Sentinels die if you look at them funny. If they're in HTH, they're going to die (unless you're fighting S3 gribbly's, but that's rare). Spending +10 points per Sentinel is just giving your opponent extra VPs, especially when for half the points you could buy Iron Discipline 3 times, and that's a Doctrine that could turn a defeat into a draw, or a draw into a win.

It is my strong, huge and loud suggestion that you ditch the worst doctrine in the book and replace it with the best - Iron Discipline.

Leman Russ
Lascannon + Searchlight

No. Bad. Lascannon on Russ = always bad. Let me explain why as I respond to your last point:

I had to take the Lascannon on the Russ simply because I do not feel comfortable using the Battle Cannon as an anti-tank weapon.

Which begs the question - Why are you using your Russ for anti-tank? The Battlecannon, as you have quite rightly suspected, is not an anti-tank weapon. It is an anti-infantry weapon through-and-through. Russes do not hunt tanks. They hunt infantry. That is all they do. When you don't fire the Battlecannon in order to fire a single Lascannon that misses 50% of the time, you are wasting the tanks abilities. For the same cost as that utterly useless and wasteful Lascannon you can get 3 Heavy Bolters, something that can make a difference, especially if the Russ is moving and your targets are in cover (making the Battlecannon shot unecessary and ineffectual).

I implore you, ditch the Lascannon. It will do nothing for you and replace it with 3 Heavy Bolters.

So, if we go with the suggested cuts, get Iron Discipline and a Standard Bearer in there quick-smart, and turn those Grenade Launchers into Plasmas, we get few points left. In summary:

Drop

• Hardened Fighters (30 points)
• 2 Grenade Launchers (16 points)
• Russ Lascannon (15 points)
• 4 Grenadiers (40 points)
• 2 Grenadier Veteran Sergeants w/Power Weapons (22 points)
  

Take

• Iron Discipline (15 points)
• 2 Plasma Guns (20 points)
• Russ Hull HB & Sponson HBs (15 points)
• Standard Bearer (11 points)

You'll have 62 points remaining after buying the above 4 items. I would immediately put 45 of that into a 4th Sentinel (in the HQ slot). This leaves 17. 12 points ups the Flamers in the Platoon Commands to 4 each. Leaves you 5 points. Extra Armour for the Russ.

I think that would work nicley.

BYE

And from here, expanding to 1500 is easy.

You drop one Sentinel (1155), add a Russ (1310), add a Las/Plas squad (1405), add an AC/Plas squad (1490), add Extra Armour to the second Russ (1495), add Searchlights to the 3 Sentinels and the 2nd Russ (1499) and then give the H-Vet Sergeant leading the Meltagun squad a Bolt Pistol (1500), just incase you land at the AV10 rear of something - an extra S4 shot at AV10 can't hurt.

BYE

Ok. I’ve created another list. I took your advice on several parts – you’ll see which ones as you go through.

 

Question: Will my Infantry Platoons be able to use the CHQ’s (with Close Order Drill) Ld 10? I’m a little confused about what it says in the entry under COD. Just a little clarification, please.

 

The three special weapons per five-man Vet. Squad was too much. I dropped each down to two meltaguns apiece. One Stormtrooper Squad is tooled for antitank. I’m hoping that I’ll be able to hold onto them until a Dreadnought, War Walker, Carnifex, etc. charges my line. Mind you that they are a last ditch option, and I don’t plan to try and footslog 5 T3, 4+ Save units across the field to go tank hunting. That’s why I’m equipping the Vets with Drop Troops and meltaguns. The other squad will sit behind the regular Infantry Platoons to provide an extra pair of plasma guns where needed.

 

Both Infantry Platoon Command Units have three flamethrowers like before – I think that they’ll do well against assault troops (for that first round where I’m shooting, that is). The Lascannons in Platoon 1 are overkill, but I like that sort of mindset. Plus, they’ll help when I fight at 1500 pts, or against a highly mechanized army.

 

Platoon 2’s troops have Autocannons and Plasma Guns, just like HBMC recommended. On that note, is there any situation where grenade launchers are better? They seem so pointless, now that I keep seeing how inferior they are to Plasma Guns and Flamethrowers.

 

I dropped the Hardened Fighters on the Sentinels.

 

I’m keeping the Lascannon on the Russ. I don’t want it on there, but seeing as how I built the tank before starting this thread, I have little choice. The next Russ with have three Heavy Bolters – no worries there, I won’t make the same mistake twice.

 

The Bolt Pistols in the CHQ and Command Units are just to even out the total to 1200.

 

Doctrines:

            Drop Troops

Grenadiers

Iron Discipline

            Close Order Drill

            Veterans

 

<h1 style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">HQ – 81 pts </h1>

CHQ – 81 pts

Jr. Officer w/ Bolt Pistol & CCW, Honorifica, Iron Discipline

Staff (4) w/ Company Standard, Lasgun (3)

 

<h2 style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">Elites – 180 pts</h2>

Hardened Veterans (5) – 60 pts

            Meltagun (2), Lasgun (3)

 

Hardened Veterans (5) – 60 pts

            Meltagun (2), Lasgun (3)

 

Hardened Veterans (5) – 60 pts

            Meltagun (2), Lasgun (3)

 

<h2 style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">Troops – 646 pts</h2>

Stormtroopers (5) – 70 pts

            Meltagun (2), Hellgun (2), Hellpistol & CCW

 

Stormtroopers (8) – 100 pts

            Plasma Gun (2), Hellgun (5), Hellpistol & CCW

 

Infantry Platoon 1 – 248 pts

            Command Unit – 58 pts

                        Jr. Officer w/ Bolt Pistol & CCW

                        Staff (4) w/ Flamethrower (3), Lasgun

            Squad A-1 – 95 pts

                        Guardsmen (10) w/ Lascannon, Plasma Gun, Lasgun (8)

            Squad A-2 – 95 pts

                        Guardsmen (10) w/ Lascannon, Plasma Gun, Lasgun (8)

 

Infantry Platoon 2 – 228 pts

            Command Unit – 58 pts

                        Jr. Officer w/ Bolt Pistol & CCW

                        Staff (4) w/ Flamethrower (3), Lasgun

            Squad B-1 – 85 pts

                        Guardsmen (10) w/ Autocannon, Plasma Gun, Lasgun (8)

            Squad B-2 – 85 pts

                        Guardsmen (10) w/ Autocannon, Plasma Gun, Lasgun (8)

 

<h2 style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">Fast Attack – 135 pts</h2>

Sentinel – 45 pts

            Multilaser

Sentinel – 45 pts

            Multilaser

Sentinel – 45 pts

            Multilaser

 

<h2 style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">Heavy Support – 155 pts</h2>

Leman Russ – 155 pts

            Hull-Mounted Lascannon

 

<h1 style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">Total: 1200 pts</h1>

 

Thanks again for the help HBMC.

 

CK

your vet squads can carry 3 meltas, i'd use 3 in each squad.

I don't understand - Why take 2 special weapons in the H-Vet units, rather than 3? You are wasting the squad's potential. Taking 2 weapons just makes them into slightly cheaper and slightly more fragile Storm Troopers, defeating the purpose of H-Vets. With 3 guns you get two hits (BS4 means 2 hits). 2 statistically-garenteed Meltagun hits should fry anything. Cutting that down to 2 cuts down their chances of killing anything. Same goes for Plasma Guns. Rapid firing you go from 6 shots/4 hits to 4 shots/2 and a bit or so hits. It's a big difference. Furthermore, taking 3 units with only Meltaguns is overkill. One of them should have Plasma Guns.

Next, a 5-man Stormy unit, and then an 8-man. It is my strong suggestion that you take 2 from the eight man, put one into the 5-man unit, and then spend the 10 points on whatever.

Bolt Pistols should go on the H-Vet Veteran Sergeants, as they're the ones who might get some use out of them.

Another problem is that you're missing Iron Disicpline on your two Platoon Command Sections. This is a bad thing.

In fact, that third H-Vet squad is actually weakening this list. It's taking away too many points that should be spent elsewhere. Dump it and you get 60 points back. After fiddling the Stormy units you get 70. You put 10 of that into Iron Discipline, 20 of that into putting the 3rd Special Weapon into the remaining two H-vet units, and then the remaining 40... where ever.

BYE

Ok, I’ve got two layouts this time. I’ve tooled them slightly differently – I need to know the strengths and weaknesses of each.

 

Layout 1

 

<h4 style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">Doctrines</h4>

            Drop Troops

            Grenadiers

            Iron Discipline

            Close Order Drill

<h4 style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">            Veterans</h4>

 

<h1 style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">HQ – 80 pts </h1> <h2 style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">CHQ – 80 pts </h2>

            Junior Officer w/ Honorifica, Iron Discipline

            Staff (4) w/ Company Standard, Lasgun (3)

 

<h1 style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">Elites – 210 pts </h1>

Hardened Veterans (5) – 76 pts

            Meltagun (3), Lasgun, Bolt Pistol & CCW

 

Hardened Veterans (5) – 76 pts

            Meltagun (3), Lasgun, Bolt Pistol & CCW

 

Hardened Veterans (5) – 70 pts

            Plasma Gun (3), Lasgun (2)

 

<h3 style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">Troops – 508 pts</h3>

Storm Trooper Squad (6) – 80 pts

            Meltagun (2), HP & CCW, Hellgun (3)

 

Storm Trooper Squad (8) – 100 pts

            Plasma Gun (2), HP & CCW, Hellgun (5)

 

Storm Trooper Squad (8) – 100 pts

            Plasma Gun (2), HP & CCW, Hellgun (5)

 

Infantry Platoon – 324 pts

            Command Unit – 63 pts

                        Jr. Officer w/ Iron Discipline

                        Staff (4) w/ Flamethrower (4)

            Squad Alpha – 85 pts

                        Guardsman (10)

                                    Autocannon, Plasma Gun, Lasgun (8)

            Squad Beta – 85 pts

                        Guardsman (10)

                                    Autocannon, Plasma Gun, Lasgun (8)

            Squad Delta – 85 pts

                        Guardsman (10)

                                    Autocannon, Plasma Gun, Lasgun (8)

 

<h3 style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">Fast Attack – 135 pts</h3>

Sentinel – 46 pts

            Multilaser, Searchlight

 

Sentinel – 46 pts

            Multilaser, Searchlight

 

Sentinel – 46 pts

            Multilaser, Searchlight

 

<h3 style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">Heavy Support –156 pts</h3>

Leman Russ – 156 pts

            HM Lascannon, Searchlight

 

1200 Even.

Layout one is Stormtrooper Heavy, and has most of its leadership resting on the CHQ and Platoon Command Unit. It has a decent amount of firepower, but I imagine it will not last long under concentrated enemy fire.

 

 

<h3 style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">Layout 2</h3>

 

<h4 style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">Doctrines (same for both)</h4>

            Drop Troops

            Grenadiers

            Iron Discipline

            Close Order Drill

<h4 style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">            Veterans</h4>

 

<h2 style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">HQ – 80 pts </h2>

CHQ – 80 pts

            Junior Officer w/ Honorifica, Iron Discipline

            Staff (4) w/ Company Standard, Lasgun (3)

 

Elites – 210 pts

Hardened Veterans (5) – 70 pts

            Meltagun (3), Lasgun (2)

 

Hardened Veterans (5) – 70 pts

            Meltagun (3), Lasgun (2)

 

Hardened Veterans (5) – 70 pts

            Plasma Gun (3), Lasgun (2)

 

Troops – 622 pts

Storm Trooper Squad (6) – 80 pts

            Meltagun (2), HP & CCW, Hellgun (3)

 

Storm Trooper Squad (6) – 80 pts

            Plasma Gun (2), HP & CCW, Hellgun (3)

 

Infantry Platoon 1 – 241 pts

            Command Unit – 51 pts

                        Jr. Officer w/ Iron Discipline

                        Staff (4) w/ Flamethrower, Lasgun

            Squad Alpha – 95 pts

                        Lascannon, Plasma Gun, Lasgun (8)

            Squad Beta – 95 pts

                        Lascannon, Plasma Gun, Lasgun (8)

 

Infantry Platoon 2 – 221 pts

            Command Unit – 51 pts

                        Jr. Officer w/ Iron Discipline

                        Staff (4) w/ Flamethrower, Lasgun

            Squad Alpha – 85 pts

                        Autocannon, Plasma Gun, Lasgun (8)

            Squad Beta – 85 pts

                        Autocannon, Plasma Gun, Lasgun (8)

 

Fast Attack – 135 pts

Sentinel – 45 pts

            Multilaser

 

Sentinel – 45 pts

            Multilaser

 

Sentinel – 45 pts

            Multilaser

 

Heavy Support – 155 pts

Leman Russ – 155 pts

HM Lascannon

 

1202. I need help trimming off those two points without losing anything significant.

 

This layout favors regular guardsmen, using massed firepower and fewer Storm Troopers. Any suggestions on either are much appreciated. HQ, Elites, Fast Attack, Heavy Support slots are identitcal in both, minus the searchlights on the vehicles and the bolt pistols on the Hardened Veteran Sergeants.

 

Hopefully this’ll do it.

CK

Layout #2, except make the Stormtroopers another tank - either a Russ or a Demolisher. One tank all by its lonesome is asking for too much attention, whereas with two you've got a chance of one surviving the inevitable hail of AT shots. That saves you those points right there - if you go for the Demolisher just ]turn the HM LC on the Russ into an HM HB. Ten points for little significance, to paraphrase H.

If you're bent on using Kasrkin models, use them as Veterans and file off the power cables. Helgun minus power cable = lasgun. They can look cool AND be useful.

I'd personally put the HI on a PHQ, but no-one in my area has a problem with COD adding +1 LD on top of the HI. Until you know it's okay with your opponents, it's best to follow H.'s advice on that one and use it for the cheap HSO in the CHQ.

edit - most important parts in bold. Don't worry, H. will reword his advice for you if you still have trouble understanding it.

I made one more revision. I felt that the list wasn't conveying the kind of fluff I wanted it to. I'll post the fluff on it when I get a chance this weekend.

Veritian Grenadiers - 1200 pts List

Doctrines: Storm Troopers, Grenadiers, Close Order Drill, Iron Discipline, Drop Troops (I'm considering swapping Drop Troops for Light Infantry or Cameleoline)

 

HQ – 109 pts

 

Command HQ – 109 pts

            Heroic Sr. Officer w/ Iron Discipline, Power Sword

            Staff (4) w/ Company Standard, Flamethrower (3)

 

<h1 style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">Elites – 220 pts</h1>

 

(x2) Storm Trooper Squad (5) – 75 pts

            HP & CCW, Hellgun (2), Meltagun (2), Deepstrike

 

Hardened Veteran Squad (5) – 70 pts

            Meltagun (3), Lasgun (2)

 

<h1 style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">Troops – 681 pts</h1>

 

(x2) Storm Trooper Squad (8) – 111 pts

            HP & Power Sword, Hellgun (5), Plasma Gun (2)

 

Infantry Platoon – 359 pts

            Platoon HQ – 106 pts

                        Jr. Officer w/ Honorifica, Power Sword, Frags

                        Staff (4) w/ Flamethrower (4), Frags (4)

            Squad Alpha (10) – 85 pts

                        Autocannon, Plasma Gun, Lasgun (8)

            Squad Beta (10) – 85 pts

Autocannon, Plasma Gun, Lasgun (8)

            Squad Delta (10) – 85 pts

Autocannon, Plasma Gun, Lasgun (8)

 

<h1 style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">Fast Attack – 135 pts</h1>

 

Sentinel w/ Multilaser – 45 pts

 

Sentinel w/ Multilaser – 45 pts

 

Sentinel w/ Multilaser – 45 pts

 

<h1 style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">Heavy Support</h1>

 

Leman Russ w/ HM Lascannon – 155 pts

 

 

1200 pts even.

 

71 models

1 Heavy Vehicle

3 Light Vehicles

I'm open to more suggestions as to the minor tweaking of units, but nothing major like dropping all the Storm Troopers for max tanks. Like I said, I'd like to keep the fluff of the list while retaining a decent amount of capability.

CK

Command HQ ? 109 pts

Heroic Sr. Officer w/ Iron Discipline, Power Sword

Staff (4) w/ Company Standard, Flamethrower (3)
Putting flamers and a power sword in this squad will only tempt you to bring them within assault range where they will die. Drop the flamers, hso w/ power sword for a j.o w/ hon.. If you want these guys to shoot, put a mortar in, if not, they should cost 81 pts.

Platoon HQ ? 106 pts

Jr. Officer w/ Honorifica, Power Sword, Frags

Staff (4) w/ Flamethrower (4), Frags (4)

drop the honorifica, power sword, frags, and 1-2 flamers. 2-3 flamers is all you need for a counter assault command squad.

@rryann: He's got the HI on the PHQ for LD10 with COD. Beats the pants off a trigger-happy Commissar in my book.

I still say you need a second Russ - trade in ONE squad of Grenadiers and one Sentinel and you've got it.* Russes should follow the Buddy system - one WILL get shot up as most armies take at least a few dedicated anti-tank squads. This will still leave you a reasonably fluffy number of Grenadiers and Storm Troopers, and you won't be "maxing" tanks with two Russes packing fluffy hull armanents. (max tanks is armoured company, or 3 Basis and half a dozen chimeras)

I also say you should find 30 points from somewhere - frag grenades, flamers and power swords, cut from the list in whatever fashion you feel is fluffiest - to get your infantry a lascannon each. Autocannon are good, but rank AFTER lascannon as far as essential infantry weapons go.

Your list has improved somewhat, and you should be able to find a reasonable compromise between effectiveness and fluff. *On that note, if you definitely want two squads of Grenadiers, I'd suggest making THEM be your five-man flamer squads, leaving the Officers free to concentrate on Leadership. This will free up points for your buddy-tank and lascannon almost as well as cutting a squad.

Lascannons are not necessary at this points level. 1200 games see very few AV14 targets, and Autocannons can deal effectivly with everything else.

BYE

Would I be alright if I split them down the middle, say with 2 Autocannons and 1 Lascannon? Or would that turn into another one of those versatility quests and make the entire unit a "Jack of all trades, master of none?"

What if I dropped the Drop Troops Doctrine? Since I'm really only using it for the H-Vet squad, I need to lose it. My current candidates for a replacement are Cameleoline (I fight a lot of urban, but no CoD yet), Light Infantry, Rough Rider Squadrons (for counter assault), and Special Weapon Squads. I'm not too keen on the last of the four - right now I'm interested in Cameleoline and Rough Riders. Please advise me otherwise if these are inappropriate or inneficient. RR's may not go with the fluff, but I'm thinking I might use converted scout bikes or something of that nature.

Also, I just realized that my most recent list is actually 1300 pts even. So, I need to revise it again anyway. Tomorrow morning, perhaps, when my head is screwed on right.

CK

Posted By Corpsman_of_Krieg on 09/07/2006 12:23 AM
My current candidates for a replacement are Cameleoline (I fight a lot of urban, but no CoD yet), Light Infantry, Rough Rider Squadrons (for counter assault), and Special Weapon Squads.

None of which you can afford. Cameleoline costs you 10 points a squad and you have to take it. Your army will be weaker with it.

Light Infantry is a fantastic Doctrine, but Infiltrating doesn't help this list, and, again, it's too expensive for 1200.

Rough Riders you could get away with, maybe instead of a Sentinel.

SWS won't help you much, not at this points level.

And this list still has a number of problems:

1. Power weapons. You can save yourself 10 points just by ditching them.
2. Frags on the Platoon HQ? Why are they there? Get yourself 5 points back by ditching them.
3. Notice the instant problem with the H-Vets and Storm Troopers? They're the same cost, yet the H-Vets have more guns. Do you see why Stormies are an inferior choice to H-Vets 99% of the time? With the Stormies you've got to pay for Deep Strike. For H-Vets its free. With Stormies you get 2 guns. With H-Vets you get 3 guns. Sure Sv4+ is nice, but these are suicide units, they're going to die anyway, so a 4+ save or a 5+ save won't make much of a difference.

If you ditch 1 Sentinel (45 points), and the 2 PWs and the Frags (15), you'll have 60 points. That's enough for 5 Rough Riders w/Hunting Lances... but you'll have to give up Drop Troopers. Thankfully you can just replace the H-Vets with another unit of Stormies. Not as good, but atleast it saves you a Doctrine slot.

BYE

@H.: *shrugs* I guess I just have an environment where people tend to squeeze in heavy stuff as much as they can, though you're absolutely correct that the ACs are better if he plays against a lot of Speed Freaks/speeder heavy marines. At some point, he'll want las/plas infantry NEways.

Special Weapons Squads are a lot better with Drop Troops than without, so I second H. on the Rough Riders. Beautiful little unit. I'd still like to see a second Russ in there, on general principle. A little redundancy never hurts - always nice to still have one MEQ-squishing pie plate even after one of your big guys has been stunned.

If I go with Rough Riders, a possibility that is becoming more and more appealing with each passing second, is there any benefit to taking special weapons in the squad, like a pair of flamethrowers before charging?

Also, why don't RR's have the option of taking Frag Grenades? It makes no sense.

CK

I wouldn't take flamers. RR's are one-hit-wonders. You hit them with as many S5 I5 Power Weapon attacks as you can afford, and then after that they die. They haven't got time for anything else.

BYE

I figured RR's are something like that. Nice first blow, but with a glass jaw. Here's a revised list

1200 pts

HQ – 143 pts

Command HQ – 98 pts

                Heroic Sr. Officer w/ Iron Discipline

                Staff (4) w/ Co. Standard, Flamethrower (2)

 

                Sentinel w/ Multilaser – 45 pts

 

<h1 style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">Elites – 220 pts</h1>

 

(x2) Storm Trooper Squad (5) – 75 pts

                HP & CCW, Meltagun (2), Hellgun (2), Deepstrike

 

Hardened Vet. Squad (5) – 70 pts

                Meltagun (3), Lasgun (2)

 

<h1 style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">Troops – 537 pts</h1>

 

(x2) Storm Trooper Squad (8) – 100 pts

                HP & CCW, Plasma Gun (2), Hellgun (5)

 

Platoon 1 – 337 pts

                PHQ – 82 pts

                                Jr. Officer w/ Honorifica, Iron Discipline

                                Staff (4) w/ Flamethrower (2)

                Squad Alpha w/ Autocannon, Plasma Gun, Lasgun (8) – 85 pts

                Squad Beta w/ Autocannon, Plasma Gun, Lasgun (8) – 85 pts

                Squad Delta w/ Autocannon, Plasma Gun, Lasgun (8) – 85 pts

 

<h1 style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">Fast Attack – 145 pts</h1>

 

Sentinel w/ Multilaser – 45pts

 

Sentinel w/ Multilaser – 45 pts

 

Rough Rider Squadron w/ Hunting Lances (5) – 55 pts

 

Heavy Support – 155 pts

 

Leman Russ w/ HM Lascannon

 

 

If I need a 1K pt list, I’ll just drop the RR’s, the HQ Sentinel, and one of the 8-man Storm Trooper Squads. When upgrading to 1.5K, I’m thinking a second Russ w/ a fluffy HM Lascannon, just for the sake of identicality, a Las/Plas Squad (Gamma), and a second RR squad (after pairing up the two Sentinels in the FA slots. That’ll leave me 5 points over any suggestions as to how I can fix that?

 

CK

Alright, I was able to play several games at 1000 points with the list above, minus the Rough Riders, HQ Sentinel, and an 8-man Storm Trooper Squad. My opponent was Iron Warriors.

In the first game (Cleanse), the game was very well matched. He had a Land Raider, which proved to be really troublesome for my gunline. It ended up making it to my AC/Plas squads and dumped 5 Terminators directly into CC. Despite some poor reserve rolls and even worse scattering of my suicide melta-squads, I was able to pop the Land Raider, in addition to 2 Obliterators. I lost a considerable number of troops, though. I ended up winning by chance. I had two Storm Trooper Squads and a Sentinel in the Iron Warrior deployment zone, a pair of 10-man guard squads one of the neutral zones, and my Russ, my CHQ and one 10-man guard in my own deployment zone.

The second game was called by turn four. Without his Land Raider, my lighter anti-tank was able to slaughter his troops and Rhino. It was an objective mission, and by the end he only had 4 bolter marines.

Game three was 1100 points. I added an 8-man Storm Trooper Squad to what I already had. It was a Recon Mission. His most powerful units were a Basilisk (no indirect fire), a Land Raider with 5 Terminators, and a Chaos Lieutenant with a Command Squad. They were mounted on Demonic Cavalry. I managed to stop his Lt. and his Retinue with a well-placed Battlecannon shot, a pair of Meltas from one of the suicide Storm Trooper Squads, and rapid-firing Plasma. By turn three I had also killed his Basilisk, Land Rainder and all crew inside (they disembarked into a Melta-Plasma-Multilaser crossfire), and all but a few of his marines. We ran out of time halfway through turn four, but by then he had Deepstruck 3 Obliterators into my lines. All my anti-armor and plasma was on the other side of the board (except for the 10-man guard squads with plasma, and the Russ). If I had to guess, he would have been able to get into close combat and slaughter my line (but would have lost at least one before getting there). We called Game 3 a draw.

In the end, the list worked out excellently. I had a little trouble with the Land Raider, but at 1000 points, I don't think I'll encounter that all the time, as HBMC suggested. I am however considering changing my fifth doctrine from rough riders to Heavy Weapons Platoons. I might not, but I think that the extra firepower I could get from them would be beneficial.

I revamped my 1200 list again by eliminating RR's for a Mortar support squad and something else that I forgot (I don't have my list with me, I'll post it up here in a couple hours). I'm also thinking about putting mortars in both my CHQ and PHQ (I'll drop Flamethrowers, of course).

Let me know what you think.

CK

By dropping the flamers in the PHQ's, what do you plan on filling a counter assault role with?

Seeing as how they were completely useless against his assaulting units, I thought that I could either save myself 24 points by losing them entirely, or by by swapping them for a pair of mortars in each squad. They're supposed to stay out of sight, and now I can actually do something with them as a result. Unfortunately, two mortars are hardly effective (in the four turns of a game I played against Tau, I killed two Fire Warriors and a Drone.). I think that I can successfully stave off an enemy charge with rapid-firing plasma from the pair of 8-man storm troopers, in addition to the plasma and Autocannon shots from the static guard units. Toss in a couple dozen rapid-firing lasguns/hellguns at BS 3 and 4, and I can pop most smaller squads. I'm assuming here that I will have already been shooting at large squads or very powerful units - I'm not going to sit on my hands and wait for a Greater Demon or a 30-man Ork Close Combat squad to get into rapid fire range.

Example: In the first game of those three I mentioned, my opponent dumped 5 terminators in front of me. He had intended to shoot the nearest squad of guardsmen and to then assault them, but the rolls worked in his favor to land him 10 guard kills. In my turn, I blew up his Land Raider with my deepstrikers, and then turned to his Termies. I moved both my CHQ and PHQ into position, covering three Terminators per template. With 4 Templates tallying up to 12 Str. 4 hits, I was confident I could inflict at least one casualty so that my plasma could mop up the rest. I wounded with two of those hits, of which he saved both.

I wasn't sweating at this point, but I did get upset when 8 plasma shots (of which 5 hit) and 4 Autocannon shots (of which 2 hit) failed me by killing only 2 models. I charged in with my PHQ, and proceeded to tie up the three remaining Terminators for two turns of close combat. My Jr. Officer with an Honorifica finally killed one before dieing himself.

It wasn't until turn six that I was able to kill the remaining two Termies with 32 rapid-firing lasgun shots, 10 rapid-firing hellgun shots, 4 autocannon shots and 6 plasma shots (one of my Plasma Storm troopers killed himself with an overheating weapon) finally inflicted enough wounds and subsequent failed saves to kill 3 Terminators. by this time, his chaos lieutenant had been Fleeting downfield and had just finished with one of my sentinels, and was in striking range to hit one of my guard squads.

The point I'm trying to make is that I think I can counter most enemy assault troops that I encounter. I play an Infantry Tau player, a stand and shoot IW player, and used to play Orks, although he's switching over to Death Guard in time for next summer. If I start getting whooped by assault-heavy armies, I'll buy some RR's. Until then, I outgun both of my other opponents (Tau and IW). I'm hoping that my hideous number of weapons will pick apart a Death Guard army before it can get in close.

Speaking of counter-assault, I'll start a new thread about Ogryns as a viable counter-assault unit in the Tactics section.

CK

how effective were the sentinels at 1200 pts. ? I've got a 1k game against nids this weekend and was thinking of including a couple. I think outgunning your opponent beats a counter assault any day of the week.

The sentinels worked in pairs. I moved them up along one side of the board, taking potshots at one of his light squads just out of bolter range. I kept them out of LOS of his Land Raider, and killed about 5 or 6 of his Marines. It was a 10-man with a Heavy Bolter and two of these possessed-looking guys. The remaining 7 were bolters. I lost one Sentinel because his Lieutenant charged it on a Demonic steed with Furious charge and some upgrades that gave his Lt. strength 7 on the charge. I miraculously held him off for 3 turns in CC with one Sentinel, though. That bought me enough time to deal with assaulting Termies and a LR that transported them. They acted as speedbumps, and did their job well. They also killed about 90 points of marines, so they paid for themselves too.

The multilasers worked very well, but that was a 1K game I used them in. guants and genestealers will drop like leaves in the fall against a pair of them - if your opponent bothers to upgrade their save he'll just be wasting his points by giving you more valuable (and fewer) targets to shoot at.

I think when I get to a 1500 point level I'm going to field four of them. Maybe the next two will have autocannons to boot - I could have popped my opponent's bassie and rhino in game 2 if I had taken autocannons instead. I wouldn't recommend Heavy Flamers or Lascannons, simply because the HF puts you in assault range where it wil die (although it might be pretty good against T3 gribbly guants), and the Lascannon misses half the time. If your opponent has some antitank, expect only 1 good turn of shooting out of that Lascannon, and then kiss the 55 point model goodbye.

again, multilasers are the way to go.

CK

Would there be any point in making my CHQ and PHQ Plasma counterassault? I had little success with flamethrowers, as they are too short-ranged (I don't want to get into assault with my opponent unless they're a massive horde of Orks or the like), and Mortars are even worse.

If I were to slap on a pair of Plasma Guns in each squad, would they be more effective (4 rapid-firing plasma shots should be able to kill at least a couple assaulting opponents)? Or should I go with 3 or four per unit?

CK