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ok, so yeah, I don't generally post on forums, but i was bored tonight and got to poking around on a couple, and to be frank, i'm kinda sick of all the whining about how much the hobby costs. [bear with me, or at least don't lynch me yet]. i'm well aware that there've been crazy price hikes, and some things do costs silly prices, but actually buying an army really isn't that expensive. for example; i recently bought a new guard army, since i'd wanted to for ages, and i like the new[ish] plastics [sorry, sidetracked] anyway, on to the shopping list.

-cadian battleforce-£50
-armoured fist squad-about £25 [i think they've stopped doing this one]
-a box of catachans-£18
-a box of kroot-£18 [mercenary kroot are the best thing in the game. don't argue, i'm right.]
-a mail order for £12 worth of accessory sprues and stuff
-a sentinel-£12 [a waste of money, but they're fun models, and no one converts them round where i play, so making something different's easy]

which comes to £135. i padded that out to 2k with stuff i already had, but that in it's self's a solid, and versatile 1500 point force, and whilst £135 straight off might seem like a lot, it's only a fortnight's work for me [i have a crap job and only work weekends, so i'm not loaded either] i think the amount of time i've spent building, painting [oh the horror, i've got a squad finished, the whole force'll kill me] and gaming with this force, i think it's fantastic value for money, when compared with paying [for example] upwards of £150 for a psp, or the hundred a month i spend on petrol.
now, i'm not an idiot, or narrow minded, i'm well aware that on top of that a completely new gamer would have to fork out about £65 on rule books and materials, [but a good fileshareing program can reduce that cost significantly, as can playing the vastly more enjoyable 3rd ed rules] and as i said, some of the prices are silly. but there's always private stores, and the net, and i just really wanted to present an alternative point of view, with a bit less bias and vitriol than some of these posts.
may main points again, if you're skimming
-not that expensive
-kroot own
-[interlectual property] piracy is ok if you wear an eye patch and drink rum whilst doing it
-3rd ed is the way forwards [or backwards, but that's the rum...]
-serious about the kroot
-i'll shut up now
-out.

Agreed on the "doesn't cost that much"; couldn't agree less on the piracy/thievery part. Unless I can come around and sift through your stuff, taking what I like, you're a self-serving hypocrite there.

[whiney voice]Whiners are terrible!![/whiney voice]

Agreeance on all but the steeling. Only Roethlisberger is allowed to be a steeler.

Posted By 6ix on 08/21/2006 7:57 PM
whines about people whining about prices, goes on to prove they have a point and then suggests people should pirate copyright material since it's too expensive. 

What? Yeah, you obviously don't post much on the forums, with this being, you know,  your first post. And a crappy one at that.

As to your "argument", that £135 doesn't even create a functional army (no HQ, no platoon HQ) much less an effective one and on top of that, at least one item on it is no longer available (the Armored Fist box, though the parts are available separately).
So, lets look at that again without whatever beer goggles you were wearing when writing the original post:
Cadian battleforce (£50/$90) - gets you 20 Cadians, 3 heavy weapon teams (plus spare weapons) and a Leman Russ. Oh, and some ever so useful terrain.
Armoured Fist Squad (£38.00/$70) - Chimera and 20 more Cadians, the 10 extra which can be used for command figures.
Catachans (£18/$35) - 20 Catachans (huh? why?)
Kroot (£18/$35) - 16 Krootloops (another slowed selections)
Sentinel (£12/$25) - If you say so
Misc accessory sprues and stuff (£12/$25) - yeah, real descriptive there. Lets say another sentinel.
SUBTOTAL=£148GBP ($280USD)

Now lets add those necessary rulebooks you suggested people steal:
WH40k Hardbound book: £30.00/$50
Imperial Guard Codex: £12.00/$20
TOTAL=£190GBP ($350)

Oh yeah, sounds like a great deal for 60 infantry models, 3-9 heavy weapons teams (six of which have to canibalizes figures from other sets), 16 kroot, 2 sentinels , one chimera and one leman russ. Terrible, terrible army and still costs an arm and a leg. Funny that you chose IG too, since they are one of only two armies that can be somewhat effectively built using solely plastics and even then you still have giant gaps in your list. Namely needing at least one more heavy weapons platoon, another Leman Russ and a Hellhound (all which will add another £70.00/$120) which will still leave you short nifty things (most which are cast in metal), like Stormtroopers, Rough Riders, Ogryns, purpose-built command teams, and, last but not least, tanks, tanks and more tanks. Not so cheap now, huh?

This sounds like one of those "Drive an escallade for $199 a month" commercials.

As has been pointed out, "functional, effective army not included, $6000 due at signing".

The biggest eater for the hobby, I think, is time. No one EVER has
enough time to assemble/paint/play what they have. But they earn
more than enough to stock up their shelves.

Posted By lord_sutekh on 08/21/2006 8:12 PM
Agreed on the "doesn't cost that much"; couldn't agree less on the piracy/thievery part. Unless I can come around and sift through your stuff, taking what I like, you're a self-serving hypocrite there.

Well, technically, since its P2P, you can only go and sift through his stuff and make copies if he allows you too.

Also, dont forget paints, glue, paint brushes, primer (also paints, I guess), etc...
Those add on, if you want a wide range of colors, you also need a wide wallet.

As someone once said, Warhammer 40k is called 40k because it costs 40k to build an army. Or something along those lines.

 

First, I don't want to get into an arguement about prices. This reply is just a point of comparison. The following Guard Army is not from a preset list, but a generic collection of Guard so you can play a variety of ways.

Rulebooks, dice and templates: 55 ( Battle of Macragge, tin of dice).

Imperial Guard Army: 3 Battle Forces for 90=270dollars. Saves you 60 bucks.It gets you 9 Heavy Weapons Platforms, 2 platoons, 2 leman russes, and extra figures for command sections.2 blisters of officers is 24.4 blisters of special weapons is 48.3 sentinels is 75.Basilisk is 40.Hellhound is 45.2 Chimeras is 70.Box of Stormtroopers is 40.2 blisters of ratlings or snipers 20-24.Lets throw in another box of Cadians for whatever. 35.

Grand Total is 671

Necrons: 2 Battle Forces 180. Gets you  6 Destroyers, 56 warriors, 14 scarab swarms. Saves you around 100 dollars then if you bought everything separately. Gives you several squads, 2 units of Destroyers and plenty of scarabs. Necron Lord 15. Monolith 55. Another box of Warriors 35. 2 units of Immortals 200. 3 Heavy Destroyers 75. Total cost of the base army is 505.

XBox360 is 299 at Walmart for the core system. 4 games around 50 dollars is 200. Harddrive 99. Wireless controller 40. Headset 20. Gold subscription to Live 46. Total cost: 704.

Golf Clubs (from Froogle) 299. ( a Callway driver can cost a 1000 bucks). Country Club membership. 3000 dollars. Greens fees 200 a game. Or, a public golf course 15. Not including tips etc. Total cost starts at 299, and goes up from there.

Scuba Diving. Instructions/certifacation: 400. ( I've seen it more and less) Basic Equipment: 400-1000 dollars.

You can't always scuba dive. You can't always play golf. Video games may not always have replay value and you have to buy more. Now, I'm sure there are cheaper ways to get equipment and certfied. I Froogled most of the answers or called someone up ( the country clubs fees for example).

You can always play Warhammer, as long as you can drive to a store, or have a table and a friend. Your models for the most part are always going to be valid. Yes, sometimes armies are changed. But the cost of building a new regiment vs replacing a 1000 Callaway driver or a 700 scuba wetsuit...

Of course, you could always spend 10 bucks on a chess set.

 

Um...I can still play my nintendo games from a decade and a half ago. The nintendo system itself is $10 from any thrift store and you can probably get a ton of games for another $10. Even games from 2-3 years ago can be found on ebay for $10-20 each. Funny how you say video games may have little replay value...yet don't say the same for warhammer. Playing the exact same game over and over, with maybe a few differences in scenarios, somehow has greater replay value? At least with video games you can spend $20 to play an entirely new game, in a new genre. Warhammer will always be a strategy game with 2 players, conceivably up to 4, but I find that multiplayer mode full of bugs. And even then you don't have access to all armies! You have to pay another ~$500 for another one. That's conceivably $10,000 to have access to each and every army and their sublists - just for one game. Of course, you pay the same for golf or a few years of diving but I'm limiting my argument to video games and there's plenty of public golf courses that are well taken care of in Florida (why would you play anywhere else anyway?).

 

The point with the video games is if you want the latest and best. I said in my post you could probably find cheaper ways to do those hobbies.

Thats what this is...a hobby. I know people who travel around the country to watch Nascar, or spend 1000's of dollars for sweaty jerseys worn by athletes.

You state you could spend 10K for all the armies...well...I don't want more then a couple armies. So I'm not going to spend 10K.

And yes, Warhammer has great replay value...I play several times on the weekends, and sometimes fit a game or 2 in a week. I don't play video games, but my brother does, and he'll go through a 50 dollar game in a week and be done with it. On the flip side, he can play Madden forever.

kinda figured that the mention of filesharing wouldn't be popular, [but, as shadow strike said, you are free to come to my house and make a copy of anything you want]
wasn't expecting people to get quite that het up about things.
-i did mention that the armoured fist box wasn't available, so sorry for mentioning that, i was listing what i personally bought.
-yeah, it doesn't come with 20 quids worth of metal hq figures, that's because i always prefer to convert my own from what's available
-the catachans were because i didn't want a uniform looking force, all the models were mixed together
-the accessory sprues weren't relevant, i wasn't discussing army composition, if you must know, it was a space wolf sprue, an empire militia sprue, and a tau sprue
-as far as a terrible terrible army, unless you're incredibly opposed to conversions, you can make rather a lot out of basic guard, a fair few of mine went on storm troopers and a squad of veterans [any extra armour went to make cadians into looking like they had a 4+ save]
-kroot, slowed choice? that statement doesn't show a lot of imagination. for 8 points [half a space marine, rounding up] you get a s4 rapid fire gun [with a reasonable, not fantastic bs] a 4+ cover save in forests, of which on most boards i play there are too many. and something that's as good in hand to hand as an assault marine [on the attack anyway] they have a decent ld, and a great character, and if you play well, are the bane of damn near any army, for their points
-i said the sentinel was a waste of money, it was an afterthought because i like them.

as it caused so much bad feeling, i apologise for mentioning file sharing, i accept that some people don't take well to the idea, i personally think if used right it's a good thing, but that wasn't the point i was making.

i'm well aware that there are easier ways of getting an effective army, i should have mentioned that mine was heavily converted in the first post.
and as an aside, guard aren't the only army that can be made effectively from pure plastic, or even one of 2, i've played [and had my ass handed to me, i suck with guard, i prefer fast armies, still, give it time] tau, necrons, nids, marines and chaos that have been effective and made from plastic. and it's not against the law to convert basic troops into something more effective.

"On the flip side, he can play Madden forever."

Don't they re-release that game every year or something? Or did they stop?

They do, as well as every other sports title imaginable....

GA - Latest and best: Video games will quickly depreciate in value if you wait, say, two months. They are still the latest and best. If you look at "greatest hits"-type games, they only do a couple of those every year or so. It's not like you're being constantly bombarbed by must-have games.

It's a hobby, but I don't see what that has to do with anything. Did I say you were investing in anything (except possibly GW stock - I know everyone who had some spare change lying around feels stupid for not buying in mid-July)?

My point with $500 for each army, possibly $10k for all, is that is what it takes to have access to the entire game. For video games, put in a few cheats or play for a few hours. Sometimes they might ask you to buy an expansion or sometimes the game is a small series. In either case, it's certainly not going to cost you $500 just to play with a different faction in the same game.

When you really want to talk about great replay value for a strategy game...Medieval 2: Total War is coming out in November.

Hmmm, how much does my army cost?

If it all burnt up in a fire, and I replaced it exactly, my drop pod army costs:

Librarian $15

4 boxes of termies $200

1 box tac marines $35

2 tornados $70

2 venerable dreads $100

5 cheap-o, non-GW pods $100

Assault cannon and meltagun bitz $10

So $530 in parts to make my present army.

 

 

6ix - I've been on Dakka for awhile (my previous IDs no longer work, but I've been lurking/posting since 2003). While it may appear that many people complain about the prices, I believe that if you watch the post over time the real complaint is about the increase in prices.

Yes, I agree that 40K is a very cheap hobby compared to others. What about golf? A set of clubs could easily run more than a 40K army, plus you are looking at fees of $20-$50 per round of golf. I've gone target shooting with friends, that costs $250-$1000 for a good rifle and $5-$10 per box of target load ammo. It also cost $40 to use the range and another $12 if you want a golf cart to haul you and your gun. There are other hobbies that cost even more, such as art collecting or re-building cars. These may offer some sort of financial return, so it's harder to compare them to miniatures.

My main beef with GW is the yearly "price adjustments" and current cost of putting together an army. There is no excuse for the price increase to the current levels other than pure greed. I'd expect some increases in price, but they have gotten out of hand.

Posted By malfred on 08/22/2006 5:21 AM
"On the flip side, he can play Madden forever."

Don't they re-release that game every year or something? Or did they stop?

Madden 2007 just released at midnight this morning. I know - I was working it.

40K isn't expensive compared to a lot of pasttimes such as golf or computer games, but GW games generally are expensive compared to other wargames.

Posted By 2112 on 08/22/2006 8:23 AM
6ix - I've been on Dakka for awhile (my previous IDs no longer work, but I've been lurking/posting since 2003). While it may appear that many people complain about the prices, I believe that if you watch the post over time the real complaint is about the increase in prices.

Yes, I agree that 40K is a very cheap hobby compared to others. What about golf? A set of clubs could easily run more than a 40K army, plus you are looking at fees of $20-$50 per round of golf. I've gone target shooting with friends, that costs $250-$1000 for a good rifle and $5-$10 per box of target load ammo. It also cost $40 to use the range and another $12 if you want a golf cart to haul you and your gun. There are other hobbies that cost even more, such as art collecting or re-building cars. These may offer some sort of financial return, so it's harder to compare them to miniatures.

My main beef with GW is the yearly "price adjustments" and current cost of putting together an army. There is no excuse for the price increase to the current levels other than pure greed. I'd expect some increases in price, but they have gotten out of hand.

I might be wrong, but is GW a non profit company??? I thought it existed to...well..make money. Don't most people work for money? and try and make as much as they can? Is greed bad? Have you ever been offered a raise or a better job for more money and turned it down? I think the livnig wage is what, nine dollars an hour. Anyone working for more then that, are they greedy?

Don't get me wrong, I think GW would make more money cutting prices and selling more product, and they need better quality control, which would help retain players. However, in a free market capitalist society, they can sell their products for whatever they want and you are always free to choose to play another game. Attacking them for greed while trying to earn as much money as you can is a bit hypocritical.

Posted By Jester on 08/21/2006 8:24 PM
[whiney voice]Whiners are terrible!![/whiney voice]

Agreeance on all but the steeling. Only Roethlisberger is allowed to be a steeler.

Nice.  Althougth I hope he remembers to wear a helmet on his motorbike in the future- he nearly gave steeler fans a heart attack.

Yeah I sometimes get upset with how much some things in the hobby cost. There are ways to reduce it though. I buy a lot of stuff through a local shop that when my gaming group does bulk orders gives us 25% off. That helps a lot. For my Marines when I wanted to add termies I pretty much balked at the idea of $50 for FIVE PLASTIC MODELS. Metal I can forgive...somewhat...ok not really but yeah 5 Plastic Termies for $50 is stupid insane when it doesn't even come with the extra assault cannons you want.

So I hit the other cost saver: eBay and got the older plastic termies for around $20 shipped, add about $6 for two old assault cannon bits and you get some pretty cheap termies that still look good. I guess you have to add the cost of the large bases I bought a bag of to mount them on, but that wasn't too bad and is useful for other stuff.

Most mainline Vehicles can be had cheaply if you're smart. Don't buy Rhinos, buy Preds and magnetize everything. Then go and buy a Whirlwind Sprue for $10 and you can field nearly anything in the SM army with a small outlay of cash. I already have one pred done up this way and the next one I buy will get the same treatment, eventually I'll buy the whirly sprues. You can do something similar to this with Tau and Eldar if I'm not mistaken.

My drop pods cost me $6.36 a pop from Home Depot using the Minivault article on building em. Look great and aren't cheesily huge either. Put some work painting them and they should come out looking nice that you don't feel bad about putting it on a gaming table in public.

Battle Boxes now being $90 are almost a dumb move by GW. One friend started IG and another started Nids. Each ordered multiple battleforces to build the bulk of their army. Hell one reason I'm tempted to start Necrons is because to build a decent 1500 point army is Two Battleforces, 2 Lords and a Monolith. Bout what $260 Retail? Add in discounts and you're doing pretty well.

This is a somewhat expensive hobby but honestly coming from a guy who used to play a lot of video games I have a lot more fun with this game and hobby than I did playing games that appealed only to me (I still play RPG's and other games with the wife, but I've mainly stopped playing a lot of FPS's and fighters that only I'd enjoy).

Oh and as a side note, exactly how much does it cost if I wanted to get into playing Warmachine? Is it that much cheaper than GW to start an army since I hear it's a much smaller scale game (ie less figures)?

My Thagrosh "beast swarm" army costs $115 for a tournament army.

The Baldar Wold Warden army costs about the same.

So not including rulebooks, you aren't spending even $200 and getting a a tournament army + some optional units. 

 

So...
About $5000 into my 73 charger and it still doesnt run yet.
$3000 into my current computer setups
$500-$600 for 40k.

I think 40k is the cheapest hobby I have. Also the one I have the least time for since it takes the coordination of players, painting (which I am finally doing myself) and a place to play.

Posted By mauleed on 08/22/2006 10:32 AM

My Thagrosh "beast swarm" army costs $115 for a tournament army.

The Baldar Wold Warden army costs about the same.

So not including rulebooks, you aren't spending even $200 and getting a a tournament army + some optional units. 

 

:|

Right, so going on the fact that you play WM, I'm guessing that means there are a few stores in our area that has a community that plays? 

I really need to hurry and finish up my Marine army so I can start going to the GW Store and the indy shops/tournies you linked me to before.  I just don't like playing with strangers w/o having a painted army.  Finnally getting close to being done enough that I can take stuff in to play soon.

Honestly, we could use the 40k players, and I know of no group that cares less about painted armies in casual play than us. It is not uncommon to see completely subbed out armies for play testing purposes (elves played as dwarves, brets as chaos, etc.).

 

Well I played a lot of stuff like that when I started with my gaming group (all buddies from college), but even when I went to play you at the shop I felt crappy about having unpainted 2nd Ed Grots and not having trukks/buggies/tanks done. Inside our group we generally do the same kind of stuff, but for some reason I don't like doing that sort of gaming w/ people I don't know well. I personally don't care if someone wants to proxy but for some reason I don't like doing the same to other people. I'm odd, so sue me. :p

I think I'll try and make the September tournament if Fat Cats Comics is running it, probably need to get my ass kicked a few times with the army anyway.

If you play fantasy there's a tournament there Saturday. You can ride with me if you like.

Nah, not into fantasy. Was interested with the 7th ed box coming out, but I think if I ever did another strategy game I'd probably do Warmachine instead of Fantasy since it's cheaper (bringing us back to the original topic).

GreenAngel - I completely disagree with your logic.

As I said, the big issue is not exactly what they charge, but it's the constant and uncalled for increases in price. Five years ago, a Rhino cost me $19.99. Now it's $30. This is much more than an increase due to inflation, cost of raw materials, labor, or marketing. As someone in another post pointed out, GWs new plastic making system was supposed to REDUCE costs. Many companies that reduce costs try to pass the savings along to the consumer to make themselves more competitive. If the don't want to do this fine, just more money in their pocket. GW knows they have (had) a hardcore fan base that wants their product, but instead of rewarding their loyalty, they did everything they can to bleed more money out of them.

Don't even go on about work and pay. I work hard and feel I deserve the pay I get. If I get a raise it is because I performed to a certain set of expectations. I don't know who you work for, but my company does not just give away money for nothing. I have earned what I receive and do not focus my time at work on just trying to get more money. Raises and bonus pay are rewards for meeting professional goals. GW had not done anything to show they can charge a premium for their models. The rules are a joke and lack any quality. WarMachine may cost the same as GW, but you are getting all metal models.

Whey you buy a car, do you just walk onto a lot and pay whatever they are asking? Most people don't. They try to haggle and get a better price. A lot of people shop around for consumer goods. They look for the best deal and try to save a little money. Most people try to pay what they feel is fair price for non-essential goods and hobbies. With GW there is no way to save (at least buying direct). Your options are to buy second-hand, find a discounter that you can buy from and don't end up paying more than retail because of shipping, or complain about prices and hope they realize they are overpriced and may do something about it. This is the other side of the market that is so often ignored here. Yes, a company can say "it's our product, we can charge whatever we want", but consumers can also come together and say "we like your product, but you charge too much...give us a more reasonable price or we will stop buying".