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Recently my friends and I have been playtesting the new Dire Avengers. This being that they are fundamentally the same, with the two new warriar powers and also the diresword/shimmerfield combo.

Here is the problem that we are running into. By the time you upgrade the squad, they are around expensive as a marine. I do not know the exact point costs of the diresword/shimmerfield but I would think it would be between 10-20 pts and that distract and shuricanstorm would be around 10pts each. This will add 3 pts to the models for a total of around 15 pts per guy. A full squad is still going to cost you around 150-175 pt range.

However, they haven't received any more toughness or any more protection. You are effectively paying points for offense in short/mid range and also for defensiveness in HTH. However, dire avengers are still 4+ save and a 3 toughness... which means that most of the high rate of fire weapons on many armies simply chew them up. For instance heavy bolters, assault cannons, gause blasters etc... eat them up... and all of their new powers don't amount to anything.

So we have attempted to play them and honestly, they just geat eaten so far. If they move forward someone drops a whirlwind or submunition on them and half kills them with one shot. Or random heavy bolters from destructors or marine squads just tear them up.

Has anyone had any luck playtesting them? If so, what do you you with them? Is the waveserpent mandatory for them to deliver them effectively?

I think they're going to need a wave serpent to hide in until they're ready to strike. As you've found, they aren't going to live long enough to hurt anything if they're hoofing it.

But 10 guys jumping out and getting 30 shots is going to hurt nearly anything.

or .. you don't upgrade them with all the shiney stuff.

Yeah, the dawn of the 'Serpent Storm' (as opposed to 'Fish o Fury') is upon us. They won't be able to eat a Meq squad on their own, but teamed up with other firepower units and their mobillity means they can help lay the hurt down where you need it without getting hosed by AP4 goodness in return.

Well with a wave serpent you can basically pull a longer range Fish of Fury type technique, just keep the squad minimal, and the Serpent can be armed with much more potent weapons than the Devilfish. Plus the ability to fire 3 shots in one turn (if the rumors are true) makes them even better.

I'm beginning to agree with you Mauleed. I was hoping that with fleet and assault weapons you could move them up fast enough to become effective immediately, and not need the transport. This is obviously incorrect. Unfortunately the WS will increase their points dramatically. It is supposed to have been lowered in points.

The main problem is that I'm working on eldar for Adepticon team, and the need for scoring units is fighting against practicaility. I want 6-7 units of troops, but I want them to be mobile to claim objectives. Interesting delima. I had hoped that dire avengers would give me an effective option of mobility and firepower. Instead they have become a point sink.

I was thinking about 18 inch shuri. cat. range. With the new rapid fire rules, it's not that big of an advantage as any unit with rapid fire capability can step up and put a big bunch of hurt on the Avengers the following turn. With this limitation in mind, they aren't going to be useful for running around as unsupported infantry, taking on MEQ's in close range fire fights.

I agree with kwade, I think they will be very useful in serpents. Jumping out and putting 30 shots on a unit of marines, they can get around 3/4 causualties. While not devestating, that is great in the late game for seizing objectives and wiping out 2-3 man marine units armed with las/plas, which is exactly the situation that rapid fire pulse rifles currently excel in. With an effective shooting range of 32 inches, this unit can even chase down mobile units such as necron destroyers (roughly 2 casualties to the necrons) and high points value units hanging out deep in the enemy deployment zone such as devestator marines (with 3/4 causualities on the 25 pt marines).

IMHO...

With there very powerful and very expensive units, I have always regarded mission objectives as the achilles heel of the Edlar List.

As it stands now, I can think of no other army I would rather play in a line 'em up and knock'em down scenario.  The eldar player should always outscore his opponent on VP.   In a mission where the objective is to take or defend ground, an eldar player can find his elite force short of the scoring units nessessary to win. 

Granted, since all anyone seems to play anymore are the 6 standard missions (some people I play with have never played a raid or battle in 4th ed).  This weakness might not be a problem.

30 shots is 20 hits, 15 wounds, and 5 dead MEQs.

Not bad at all.

Compare that to 10 fire dragons, which is 10 shots, 20/3 hits, 100/18 or 5.6 dead MEQs

But you only get the 30 shots once.

And if you kill everything within 18", you aren't getting assaulted (by most things) OR rapid fired next turn.

Close, unless the shuricats get a S boost it'll be 30 shots -> 20 hits -> 10 wounds -> 3.33 dead Meqs.

Still not bad, but not quite that uber...

Oops.

Posted By kwade on 08/22/2006 11:16 AM
Yeah, the dawn of the 'Serpent Storm' (as opposed to 'Fish o Fury') is upon us. They won't be able to eat a Meq squad on their own, but teamed up with other firepower units and their mobillity means they can help lay the hurt down where you need it without getting hosed by AP4 goodness in return.

Alright KWADE as penned the moniker.  Lets see if Serpent Storm sticks.

I've heard the soon to be popular fire dragons+wave serpent army refered to as "snakes on a plane".

Not too sure what Fire Dragons have to do with snakes, but cute none the less.

Posted By mauleed on 08/22/2006 1:24 PM
I've heard the soon to be popular fire dragons+wave serpent army refered to as "snakes on a plane".

Now I definately need to get more motha#&^%in' fire dragons.

I think DA with Doom will increase their kill potential.

Capt K

Posted By CaptKaruthors on 08/22/2006 3:15 PM
I think DA with Doom will increase their kill potential.

Capt K

Yup, then you're looking at the better figures (30 shots -> 20 hits -> 15 wounds (with re-rolls figured in) -> 5 dead Meqs).

Oddly enough, Guide only results in 12.5 wounds on average (or, 4 and a titch dead Meqs).  Interesting that the Doomseer adds so much more to the squad over the Guideseer...

Course, that requires a Farseer for X points, getting him to arrive at the same time as the DAs (not a given in a reserves game, but quite doable otherwise with the Serpent's increased capacity), and there not being a Librarian around to counter the psychic power.

Still, I can see the value of the Doomseer in a list that plans on using the 'Serpent Storm' tactic - just about makes him mandatory (depending on how effective the Autark would be... ).

D'uh, just figured out the value of the Doomseer. Since it's casting on the enemy unit rather than the friendly one, it can basically choose one squad that'll go 'poof' this turn. A single Doomseer could hit an enemy squad, giving the benefit to two DA squads on the same turn. That's 10 Meq kills on average folks - and that ain't no small potatoes.

Wow... too bad weddings cost so much, this new 'dex is actually getting me interested in my old Eldar again...

You getting married soon Kevin? December for me.

I'm not sure that the serpent drop is going to be popular as the Fish of Fury (if it is actually popular). Tau use it to avoid HTH. Dire avengers don't particularly mind HTH.

More likely will be the fish moving 24 into position, probably within range of a unit, but behind cover. Using vectored engines to make sure it isn't wiped out by something. The following turn pivot, 2 inch deployment from the back then 6 inch move, shurican storm, then assault by the dire avengers. They will kill 3 marines with shooting, then assault and kill 2 more or so. The marine will be hard pressed to kill them easily with distract and also the 5+ I in hth to the powerfist. They become a tar bit with LD 9. Interesting, but hard to pull off and it will be obvious what is about to happen.

A farseer with guide can now just be thrown into the serpent with them as an attachment. Or an Autarch if you wish.. or both if necessary. They could then use fortune/doom to be effective, but this is a near 400 pt unit.

I'm still not sold on them. I think we will still see guardians quite a bit.

b.t.w. I'm also getting married in December, on the 9th. What about you mauleed?

Congrats on the weddings guys.

OT, i think that the new avengers, in flak fire kitted wave serpants, will be very handy at crowd control, and as Kwade pointed out, with a seer, will be brutal.

The firepower of the serpants will contribute additional kills as well.

I agree, mechanized eldar will be the wave (har har) of the future.

The 30th for me.

Wow, congrats all around guys. Mine's coming up quick - October 28th! Too much stuff to do, too much stuff to buy... Hopefully this one will stick. I think it will, I'm a lot happier this time and she's good at keeping me 'in line' (heh).

I don't see DA really wanting to get into combat unless it's with a severly weakened squad. If Shuri Storm is exarch-independant (i.e. - you don't need an exarch to get the ability), then I can't imagine how a fully kitted out squad would be much better than a bare-bones 120 point one. The 18" range lets you stay relatively safe from getting charged after you've blown your load, and since you can't fire next turn there's no harm from mounting back up the following turn and zipping off. Granted, you'll only be able to pull the alpha strike off twice a game (maybe three times if there are no reserves... ), but still it'll be nasty when used right. Plus, unlike the charge tactic you'll be able to threaten a nice big 30" radius around your Serpent. Not so easy to see where it's coming when you keep the mobility...

My biggest question is what the range on Doom's gonna be. If it's far enough I may just have to hit up e-bay to dump some old stuff... and fund a few new purchases...