Latest posts for the thread "Doesn't anyone have any rumors about the new Ork Codex?"

Doesn't anyone have any rumors about the new Ork Codex?

Maximillion1 — GMT

I've been waiting and waiting and I still haven't heard a single rumor about what will be in the new Ork Codex.

Doesn't anyone have any inside info? Please!!!! Throw me a bone here?

RE: Doesn't anyone have any rumors about the new Ork Codex?

winterman — GMT

Other then its scheduled to release about a year from now?

I doubt they'll be much in the way of rumours until after the eldar codex is released. Even then i'd expect to wait until after the Dark Angels codex before any real juicy stuff gets unveiled.

RE: Doesn't anyone have any rumors about the new Ork Codex?

Doctor Thunder — GMT

Personally, I hope they push back the release another year or so. My Tyranids went from being one of my most powerful armies to being one of my weakest.

With my Speed Freaks currently my favorite army to play, the thought of them getting nerfed like my nids just fills me with dread.

Remember, new codex does not mean better codex.

RE: Doesn't anyone have any rumors about the new Ork Codex?

Tazok — GMT

But it means new ork minis, which are really needed, especially for the outdated vehicles.

RE: Doesn't anyone have any rumors about the new Ork Codex?

Doctor Thunder — GMT

Nah,

Half the fun of orks is scratch-building your own vehicels, anyway.

RE: Doesn't anyone have any rumors about the new Ork Codex?

GrimTeef — GMT

But if the new ork models are anything like the new orc fantasy models, then I think I would rather NOT have a new codex.

A nerfing of the ork codex is quite a fear. No one considers them overpowered at all, yet I can see some evil things in the works...

The ork codex doesn't really need all that much. It just needs to consolidate the Speed Freeks into the regular codex list, so they all use the same wargear and vehicle upgrades. A few wargear choices need to be tweaked (like the 'Uge Choppa), and then the list needs to allow for building of any kind of ork clan based army.

I think seeing some fun things like the Shokk Attack Gun make a comeback would be great, and the rumored plastic Stompa would be at the top of my list to see.

A couple of changes like making the Waagh check and mob check work off Wounds and not 'heads' would be a great change, since Warbosses and Nobz should generate more Waaagh than a boy does. This would also make it easier for a warboss and retinue to get their Waaagh to work when there is only a handful of Nobz with the Boss.

RE: Doesn't anyone have any rumors about the new Ork Codex?

Hordini — GMT

Shokk Attack gunz would be cool.

But I think more importantly, as Grimteef said, making mob checks work off of wounds instead of model count would be friggin' sweet.

Although something like that just makes too much sense for GW, it would seem.

RE: Doesn't anyone have any rumors about the new Ork Codex?

Maximillion1 — GMT

I'm hoping for Weirdboyz, Warpeadz and Squiggoths. Also, I saw in the concept are Squig riders. That would be cool too. BAH, I hate waiting.

RE: Doesn't anyone have any rumors about the new Ork Codex?

Reecius — GMT

I'm hoping for Weirdboyz, Warpeadz and Squiggoths.

Dito that.

I heard a good rumor from an ex employee of GW, so take it with a grain of salt, but still fun to think about.

I was told that the new trukk kit would be Rhino sized and with it you would be able to build most of the orc vehicles, ie.: trukks, buggies, gunwagons, etc.

now that would be really cool.

but, i agree with grimteef, the trump card is the orc stompa. if they do a good job with that, good night nurse. i think we will se a large influx of orc players, which is nothing but cool in my book.

RE: Doesn't anyone have any rumors about the new Ork Codex?

Drake_Marcus — GMT

Indeed the trukk/everthing kit has been confirmed from inside sources.

RE: Doesn't anyone have any rumors about the new Ork Codex?

Phryxis — GMT

It will be interesting to see what they do with Orks. Marines were strong, they only got better. Tau also got better overall. Nids may be an exception, but there is a pretty strong trend of Codex Creep. So, considering that Orks are by far the worst Codex right now, it will be interesting to see how they're handled. I think they could take numerous improvements across the board, and not be overpowered.

A little tweak to the Waagh check isn't gonna cut it.

Speed Freeks and Feral Orks are, obviously, not quite as bad off as the normal boyz, but I think too many people apply their success to the basic Ork Codex... And neither list is in there.

Long story short, the Ork Codex is really the only one that truly NEEDS a rewrite. The Eldar probably deserve one, but it's an endless irritation to me that the Orks don't get a rework. They needed a new one before Marines, Tau, Nids... Hell, they needed one before Tau even were released...

RE: Doesn't anyone have any rumors about the new Ork Codex?

Holy_Mecha — GMT

I don't really understand why it's been left for so long. I mean, the general reason GW update an army is to make more money, na ja? (Let's here it for the Marines, Nids and Tau...) But why leave the Orks so long? Historically they're one of the most popular armies (don't know if that's the case now), they have a dire need for new vehicle models, they're a horde so their armies are necessarily big (and costly), and I reckon that a flush of decent new models would pursuade most players with an existing army to either add a few new ones or upgrade the old.
Alas - a year to go...

RE: Doesn't anyone have any rumors about the new Ork Codex?

Warrior 50 — GMT

Check out White Dwarf #321 in the US. It is mostly about the new Orc and Gobblin codex and there are some articles about the new models.

Some items also about the new stuff for LOR and Eldar.

Other than that not much else.

RE: Doesn't anyone have any rumors about the new Ork Codex?

Romerous — GMT

Just an idea for those fellow Ork players out there - and this is something I will be doing in the next few months.

How about using the Lord of the Rings War Mumak to make a Squiggoth. It would take a little bit of conversion but it is plastic after all and cheaper than the forge world version.

My thought is to make one up and use the Squiggoth rules found in the Feral Orks list with the normal Ork codex - at tournaments just give it the same stats as a Battlewagon with a few bits of wargear.

RE: Doesn't anyone have any rumors about the new Ork Codex?

Reecius — GMT

Squiggoths are so bad arse! they kick butt.

But i agree, the Orks do need a power boost. I am against codex creep on the whole, but what i think every codex does need is flexibility. You dont need uber units, you need the ability to field a wide variety of units and combos. that is what keeps armies fresh and fun. A huge part of the effectiveness of marine and chaos lists is the huge amount of variations you can field with your force within the codex.

Every army needs that kind of variety, IMHO. people would enjoy their amries more, buy more models and would allow for a greater degree of tactical flexibility in game, makeing that army more effective.

on topic:

I alos heard from the same ex GW employee, that Jes Goodwin was doing a lot of the orcs, which would be great, i really like his work.

RE: Doesn't anyone have any rumors about the new Ork Codex?

Maximillion1 — GMT

You know, I've been reluctant to make a Feral or Speed freak army because I don't know if they'll be included in the next codex. I'd hate to make an army, and by the time I'm finished, have it be totally useless because it's not in the new dex. I'll say it once again, BAH!!!!! I HATE WAITING!!!!!!

RE: Doesn't anyone have any rumors about the new Ork Codex?

GrimTeef — GMT

Phryxis - a little tweak to the mob check is not ALL that is needed, but the orks on the whole only need so much. The majority of ork players are generally happy with the codex as is, aside from some fixes and tweaks.

Ork players on the whole are not powergamers and only want to compete on an even playing field, and at The-Waaagh I don't hear a lot about people complaining that the orks are underpowered and still hear about plenty of ork wins over da Beakies. As long as nothing is taken away from the current codex and only some things are added, ork players on the whole will be happy. A power boost would be nice, but a large boost is not necessary.

With any luck, Speed Freeks and Feral Orks will be something that can be done with the general codex. I see no reason why this cannot happen, along with the Clans. It would make the new ork codex very versatile, fun, and would draw in a lot of players, old and new.

Holy Mecha - the majority of ork players agree that the Eldar needed help before the boyz did. At least that's the way it seemed on The Waaagh.

Reecius - Jes Goodwin is good, but BAH! I want Brian Nelson on the orks! No one else has done as much good for the orks as he has. I hope that the absence of a lot of his work lately can be attributed to his working feverishly on new ork models. Jes is good, but the orks need Nelson to really thrive as a model range.

Jes has done a LOT for the new Eldar, and I would think that there is a lot of work going on concurrently with the ork models. Considering how long it takes to get stuff designed, approved, sculpted, and approved again, then made into sprues and molds, I would think that 2 teams would need to be working nearly simultaneously to get that amount of work out within the time frame that we are all expecting. If Jes is doing a lot of Eldar AND a lot of the orks, don't think he's sleeping much.

I pray to Gork and Mork that Nelson is on the ork range. His talent is generally missed on the new orc fantasy range, with only the warboss character model to be released showing his trademark style. Perbet must be doing the fantasy orcs and gobbos, they look like they might be his, as the sculpting is good but not quite there compared to Nelson's orcs from last editions set.

RE: Doesn't anyone have any rumors about the new Ork Codex?

Hordini — GMT

I don't think a tweak to the mob check is the only thing that needs to be done, I just think it would be a step in the right direction. Honestly, something that probably should have been tweaked before now. Obviously, a new codex needs more than just a step in the right direction - it needs to have actually arrived at the right place. Hopefully, that means a place where orks are not overpowered, but definately have an even playing field. A Waaagh should be a force to be reckoned with.

RE: Doesn't anyone have any rumors about the new Ork Codex?

Phryxis — GMT

The majority of ork players are generally happy with the codex as is, aside from some fixes and tweaks.

I'd attribute that more to a positive attitude on their part than to the reality of the Codex. I can't really see them as being anything but the worst list in the game. They have WS4, 2A and Choppas. That's it. Everything else is subpar. They pretty much don't get saves... They mostly have S3... They're an assault biased force with I2...

I could see them getting major improvements in multiple areas and still being a perfectly fair list. S4 across the board, with S5 for Skarboyz seems fair to me (and vastly more fluffy). Cost decrease on Klaws...

Maybe I'm just not any good with them, but I'm really not impressed with the whole "they just take practice" thing people say about weak armies. Fine, you go practice, and while you're doing that I'll also be practicing with my Blood Angels, only I won't need it, because I can pretty much send the whole army off in a corner to have s'mores, while the Death Company rolls over the table like a black wave of easy-to-win-with.

I don't care how clever people get with Grot screens, if you have to get your whole army working in perfect concert to even have a chance, that's no good. SM Assault Squads just come crashing in with Power Fists, and hordes of I4 S4 attacks. It takes very minimal forethought to get a charge when and where you want it.

Not that Orks CAN'T win... But name a list that's harder to win with?

RE: Doesn't anyone have any rumors about the new Ork Codex?

warlordty — GMT

Depends on who's playing with them.

I be you could win with nids or dark eldar or perhaps even tau on your first game against an experienced player, but you get better. Orks are just one of those armies that takes time to get better other than, "i don't need to worry about tactical flexibility because they're marines"

Secondly orks ar not close combat biased. if you've ever been on the recieving end of a bad moon army of flash gitz, big shootas, rokkit launchas and kustom mega blastas you'll know what i'm on about.

Then there's speed freeks, are they close combat biased?. Most definitly not. Hit and run tactics using their guns as much as the do thier choppas.

Then you say the rest of the army is all about cc?. So what if they are I2 if there's enough of them there they get double I auto anyway. Then if a 10 man marine squad doesn't fall to a 20-30 strong mob of sluggas then there is something very wrong in this world.

To be honest as an ork player i never play 'to win' i play for sh*ts and giggles, you win, so what. Did you opponent enjoy the game as you black marines of doom got into 2nd turn combat and lost right there right then? i'm gonna go out on a limb and say no.

RE: Doesn't anyone have any rumors about the new Ork Codex?

yakface — GMT

The fact that the majority of the Ork players feel that very little needs to be done to the codex (if that is truly the case) is immaterial. The current Ork players make up only a small percentage of overall players, and that's the whole problem!

These are the same people who constantly say: Why do we need new Ork vehicle models, half the fun is converting Ork vehicles yourself!!!

It's like Ork players are punk rockers. They like their little niche and they don't want their army going mainstream cause then they'll feel like what makes the army special to them isn't theirs alone anymore.

BULLCRAP!

Orks should be just as much an uber-power army as any other codex. We should see (non-Feral) Orks at the top of GT winner lists again.

If GW just does make a few changes here and there to the Ork codex after nearly 8 years, I say shame on them.

Footslogger Orks *cannot* be tooled to outshoot a shooty army. They are to slow and too expensive to be a true horde army. They lack durability and the truly poweful CC unit to be an elite CC army.

In short, they do a whole bunch of things decent, but nothing really well.

Orks deserve better. They deserve a massive line of new models after 8 years and they deserve to have a truly strong army list after 8 years.

RE: Doesn't anyone have any rumors about the new Ork Codex?

Hordini — GMT

Posted By yakface on 09/16/2006 3:57 AM

Orks deserve better. They deserve a massive line of new models after 8 years and they deserve to have a truly strong army list after 8 years.

Hear, hear! Yakface speaks the truth.

RE: Doesn't anyone have any rumors about the new Ork Codex?

Ebon — GMT

I also agree with Yakface. They need an army list that gives you pause when considering them vs. Marines. They are a standard in the 40k universe and they deserve do be played as much that it shows.

To the guy that says Orks are played so your opponent has a good time. I've got to admit, the last few times I've played against Orks, it hasn't been fun, because most of my time is spent consoling my opponent when I blow all his stuff off the board, and his guys are dying in droves.

RE: Doesn't anyone have any rumors about the new Ork Codex?

GrimTeef — GMT

Whoa Whoa WHOA there, Tex! I agree that orks deserve the best shot imaginable, and deserve a hell of a lot of new models. I would rather that there were proper models for everything in the ork codex than having to scraatch build so much - that will bring in new blood! I'm all for that. I think that one big problem with the ork list is that so much DOES need to be converted, and your general player does not have the time, skill, or money, (or all three) to really get into the orks. If orks get new kit, then that will bring in more ork players. Gork knows that I don't have the time to convert everything in some way anymore.

I think what I'm getting at is that I don't want orks to be used as an example of being overpowered in the same breath as marines. That should never happen. I would hate to see the orks turned into some cheese-fest list. I want to see them competitive as much as the next greenskin. Perhaps that is what it will take for orks to become more popular, since so many players seem to be the win-at-all-costs types. I win with my orks as much as I lose. If they get some more strength, fine, but I just don't want to hear that the list of overpowered armies includes orks.

I want people to have a good time playing against a greenskin army. That's a part of it, but it is not the only thing. I want them to have a good time trying to think about how the heck to beat me as well, and not have to worry about how to make it look sporting as they blast us off the table.

RE: Doesn't anyone have any rumors about the new Ork Codex?

Hordini — GMT

Well, the thing about over-powered lists is, if all the lists are really powerful, none of them would be over-powered. GW just needs to standardize the power levels - that means balancing the army lists.

Personally, I don't want to hear about any army being overpowered. Obviously that's not the case currently, but I think it is something GW should strive for.

RE: Doesn't anyone have any rumors about the new Ork Codex?

Maximillion1 — GMT

I've only been playing Orks for a little while, and don't get me wrong, I love the Greenskins. But it's true, that, compared to other armies, they do seem to be underpowered. Particularly when all the fluff describes an ork Waagh as this unstoppable force of nature. It seems the power that the actual strength of an ork army does not match the fluff strength that they are supposed to have.

It bugs me that they don't have any psychic abilities. Especially when, as a race, all orks are supposed to be psychic creatures. And it bothers me that, so much of the codex is useless. 50% of the Wargear and half of the units in the codex never get used because their not worth the points. When was the last time anyone used a unit of stikkbomberz?

I think the orks definitely need some tweaking. That being said, I still love the Orks. Win or lose, they're the funnest army in the game.

RE: Doesn't anyone have any rumors about the new Ork Codex?

Shadow_Strike — GMT

Honestly, if youre gonna steamroll me, I just wont play you again. My mistake. Why play a game you dont like? Or more importantly, gainst a person you dont like?

I play the Kult of Speed, they seem fine to me, then again, I havent played in so long.

I agree that the options do suck in the codex. Honestly, Stikkbommas? I call my warboss (thank fully you dont need one in a KoS list) Warboss Pointsinka.

RE: Doesn't anyone have any rumors about the new Ork Codex?

Drake_Marcus — GMT

Well all I care about is that they don't replace any of the beautiful Nelson models with non-Nelson sculpts like they've done with the new Orcs and Goblins.

RE: Doesn't anyone have any rumors about the new Ork Codex?

Phryxis — GMT

Did you opponent enjoy the game as you black marines of doom got into 2nd turn combat and lost right there right then?

I don't mean to be a dick, but this is the punchline to all the "[insert underpowered army] aren't actually underpowered" arguments. It's basically undercutting your whole point, on the way to trying to support it. Not only are you using fun as a variable in a discussion purely about army power, but you're also tacitly implying that Orcs would never be able steamroll anybody, and thus tend to be more fun to play against.

They're not a good army. I think we both know that. They might be a fun army. Hell, I painted 1500+ points of them, knowing all along how terrible they are, just cause I do like kustomizing vehicles, painting orks, hacking up models, etc. They're fun, have personality, all that. But they blow worse than any other list in the game. You can win a game or two... Practice helps... But they're probably as weak as the Death Company is overpowered, and that's pretty terrible.

Like I said, name a list that's harder to win with than Codex Orks. I don't think there is one, at least not in the mainstream of Codexes (maybe WD released one of their slowed "Imperial Guard with close combat weapon" armies that'd be worse).

Sure, as I admitted, there's some variants that are tougher, namely KOS and Feral Orks, but they're not the whole of the list, nor even in the actual Codex. The classic, fluffy, mob of orks on foot and in trukks... Blows.

RE: Doesn't anyone have any rumors about the new Ork Codex?

Therion- — GMT

The funny thing is that in almost every other game I can think of the Orcs are one of the strongest, if not the strongest army in the game. In 40K Orks are no good at the moment. This hasn't always been so, as we can probably all still remember how near unbeatable the KoS was in the previous edition where you could assault out from your armoured tops and Trukks and Buggies could hold quarters. All in all this whole new 'dynamic' edition of 40K is a complete failure and the Orks and the new Eldar reflect it best. You can't be an assault army if you can't use transports.

The entire problem of transports being too powerful would've been perfectly fixed with the new damage table along with its entanglement rules, especially when combined with the fact that dedicated transports can't hold quarters or objectives. To not be able to assault from closed top transports was completely unnecessary. The local retailers here say they sell about one Rhino kit per month now, if that.

Like I said, name a list that's harder to win with than Codex Orks.

Dark Eldar.

RE: Doesn't anyone have any rumors about the new Ork Codex?

gorgon — GMT

While I think Orks aren't okay as is, I also think fixing them might not require drastic changes. The boyz mobz hit plenty hard enough if they arrive mostly intact...the problem is that they rarely do that outside of CoD games. The two ways to solve this is either give them more footspeed or make them more resilient. IMO, footspeed doesn't feel right, so the focus oughta be on the resilience of the mobz.

I'd be interested to see how Orks play if you give boyz a slight points break, fix the Waagh checks and give them more reliable saves, either through fixing of Gretchin, more access to KFFs (think Gungans) or both. With more boyz on the table and 5+ cover saves they can rely on, footsloggas might fare quite a bit better.

Focus the rest of the efforts on fixing wargear, cleaning up and consolidating a lot of the ancillary unit types, and bringing in some aspects of the Feral list (Weirdboyz and Squiggoths, anyone?) and you might have yourself a codex.

RE: Doesn't anyone have any rumors about the new Ork Codex?

Reecius — GMT

Dark Eldar.

Are you serious? DE are an MEQ's worst nightmare. They have a REALLY tough time against IG and Nids, but against anyone else DE are brutally effective.

On topic:

Orcs deffinately need help. KOS and Fearl Orcs are tough, no doubt, and fun to play but they need to be incorporated into the basic codex, as others have stated.

I would like to see:

Toughness 5 warboss. The Orcs lack a HtH monstrosity, which they need and fluff wise, deserve.

Clan options: similar to SM traits and IG doctrines. I want to be able to customize my mobs. Allow players to pay to be Goffs with the extra point of strength, etc.

Include new units: squiggoths, weirdboyz, etc. I would like to see some more variety.

And, as everyone else has said, NEW VEHICLE MODELS!! god dang, the old ones are terrible.

Stickbomb options on boyz, things like that. they need a big overhaul, and a characterful, fun army like orcs would only benefit the game as a whole if more people pleyed them.

RE: Doesn't anyone have any rumors about the new Ork Codex?

Voodoo Boyz — GMT

Posted By yakface on 09/16/2006 3:57 AM

The fact that the majority of the Ork players feel that very little needs to be done to the codex (if that is truly the case) is immaterial. The current Ork players make up only a small percentage of overall players, and that's the whole problem!

These are the same people who constantly say: Why do we need new Ork vehicle models, half the fun is converting Ork vehicles yourself!!!

It's like Ork players are punk rockers. They like their little niche and they don't want their army going mainstream cause then they'll feel like what makes the army special to them isn't theirs alone anymore.

BULLCRAP!

Orks should be just as much an uber-power army as any other codex. We should see (non-Feral) Orks at the top of GT winner lists again.

If GW just does make a few changes here and there to the Ork codex after nearly 8 years, I say shame on them.

Footslogger Orks *cannot* be tooled to outshoot a shooty army. They are to slow and too expensive to be a true horde army. They lack durability and the truly poweful CC unit to be an elite CC army.

In short, they do a whole bunch of things decent, but nothing really well.

Orks deserve better. They deserve a massive line of new models after 8 years and they deserve to have a truly strong army list after 8 years.

Thank you for saying it far better than I could have.

One more year and we'll see how it goes.

RE: Doesn't anyone have any rumors about the new Ork Codex?

Therion- — GMT

Are you serious? DE are an MEQ's worst nightmare. They have a REALLY tough time against IG and Nids, but against anyone else DE are brutally effective.

You wouldn't mind explaining this a bit? DE are a MEQ's worth nigthmare? DE is the weakest army in the entire game and a MEQ player who doesn't wipe them off the table in every mission imaginable is a lot worse than just clueless. By your admission the DE should be an extremely good GT force since what you mostly encounter at GTs are SM, Chaos and some Eldar. If you don't mind can you name a Dark Eldar GT winner either in fourth or third edition? Failing that, can you name a Dark Eldar GT player who has scored 100 or higher battle points? I know I can't, because I haven't ever even seen them make top10 in a GT qualifier not to mention actually winning anything. My own experience of Dark Eldar is seeing 20 Disintegrators and Lances on the table on turn one, and seeing none on turn four. In addition to bringing the succesful DE players to light, please post the brutally effective worst nightmare -type of DE army in the army list forum, and explain there how it's going to beat IW and Pod Marines in a tournament environment.

RE: Doesn't anyone have any rumors about the new Ork Codex?

gorgon — GMT

Therion, in the U.S. we've had at least two DE GT winners, one in 3rd edition, and one in 4th edition, IIRC. Marc Parker (who is a multiple GT winner) won with a Wych Cult in 2005, and a gentleman from Texas (someone help me out with the name) won one with a Raider rush army in 3rd edition several years ago. I know there's been other good finishes by DE armies as well.

While I think Reecius was overenthusiastic regarding the effectiveness of DE, saying "a MEQ player who doesn't wipe them off the table in every mission imaginable is a lot worse than just clueless" is off the mark too. I won't claim that DE can consistently hang with the ubertuned GT lists, but maybe you simply haven't seen a good player utilize the army effectively? I think the army was better under 3rd edition than 4th, but DE players have adapted using WWP tactics.

RE: Doesn't anyone have any rumors about the new Ork Codex?

The Happy Anarchist — GMT

Mainly the webway portal ones, Wych Cult and otherwise that I have been hearing the best results from.
They can avoid the first turn loss issue, and can still get good use out of raider fleets. Decent in close combat as well.
Still, not nearly as powerful as many of the marine variants.

RE: Doesn't anyone have any rumors about the new Ork Codex?

Reecius — GMT

Yes, the DE are highly effective. I admit, i may have been a little too, as gorgon put it, "overenthusiastic" in my deffense of them, but they are far from the worst army in the game, wihtout a doubt.

The maxed empty raider dark lance army is very effective, and wych cults are extremly viable.

and if i am not mistaken, hasnt't Xtapl from these boards had a great deal of success with the DE?

@therion
while we may have both gone a bit overboard with our claims, i can not see how you could say they are the worst army in the game, or how they should be wiped off of the table by any marine player turn 2. They have speed, anti armor punch, and brutal HtH. I would gladly take a tooled out DE list against a marine player and i think that it would be an enjoyable and tough match up.

RE: Doesn't anyone have any rumors about the new Ork Codex?

Therion- — GMT

I didn't go overboard at all in my statements, and the game between us wouldn't be enjoyable or tough. The maxed empty raider army you talk about is a piss-poor list.

One GT win in the US (where people generally like to play weak armies) in this edition is quite far from being a MEQ player's worst nightmare especially as you have what 10 GTs per year? I strongly suggest you just make that post and explain your strategy instead of just throwing empty claims in the air.

RE: Doesn't anyone have any rumors about the new Ork Codex?

Reecius — GMT

hahahahaha, jeez buddy, i didnt realize defending Dark Eldar would get your panties in such a bunch. You act like its a personal insult. I admit, Dark Eldar are not the ultimate MEQ crushing army that will never fail, no army is. But I was reacting to you statement, and they are NOT the worst army in the game, and by no means would two optimzed lists with high level generals end in a wipe out in every imaginable mission. That is very obviously a rediculous statement.

The fact that so many GT's are taken by MEQ's has as much to do with the fact that the majority of players at GT's play MEQs as anything else. They are hands down the most popular armies in the game. In a pool of good players with in which 90% take MEQs, it doesn't take a rocket scientest to predict the end result.

As much as I do not want to get into a pissing contest, you have no clue how a game between the two of us would end, no matter which army either of us played. And it is pointless to even debate such a thing as it will most likely never happen.

At any rate, chest thumping on the internet is absolutely pathetic, so I will leave this alone. If you think they suck, then ok, i dont feel that way.

Nuff said.

RE: Doesn't anyone have any rumors about the new Ork Codex?

Therion- — GMT

First of all, Craftworld Eldar win a lot more GTs than MEQ do, atleast untill the new book hits the shelves. Secondly, well, another one bites the dust. You come to the thread guns blazing calling DE the MEQ players' absolute worst nightmare, and when I ask you to back up your statements you start to cry and proceed to write some incoherent babble. Well done.

RE: Doesn't anyone have any rumors about the new Ork Codex?

gorgon — GMT

Therion, let's be fair...you asked for one winner (actually, you asked for a lot less than that), and I gave you two. You can say the competition was weak, but all those guys could do was beat the armies they faced. I'm not going to get behind Reecius' "nightmare" statement, but I think a well-composed, well-played DE army isn't an automatic win vs. anything other than clueless players like you said.

Now, I'm not even a DE player, but my take on WWP DE vs. drop pods is that reserve rolls and the roll for first turn would be huge factors. If DE get first turn, they should be able to safely drop WWPs on their turn 2. That'll allow them to pit the majority of their army coming in on their turn 3 against half the SM force that came in on turn 2. With enough disintegrators and agonizers, DE can dish out enough damage to make the game pretty interesting. However, if SMs get the first turn, the DE player will probably have to drop on turn 1, as the pods coming in on SM turn 2 will endanger the WWP carrier and thus everything in reserve. Then on DE turn 2, only half the DE force will emerge and obviously it becomes a tough road for the DE.

In my experience facing them, DE are quite a glass hammer...but they're still a hammer that will hurt if they get the opportunity.

I wouldn't want to face IW with WWP DE, as the ordnance would really threaten the carriers. But then who doesn't match up poorly with IW? Again, I'm not arguing that DE are a top GT army, just that the truth lies somewhere between "nightmare" and "clueless."

RE: Doesn't anyone have any rumors about the new Ork Codex?

NinjaRay — GMT

@Therion; DE are better at killing MEQs them most people give them credit for. Having a 10 man squad that have 2 blasters and 2 dark lances for 110 points means that they can easily shoot Marines up, but low leadership and T3 does not make it easy. The Archon will shadowfield and Talos help survive aginst Marine close combat or short range shooting. Using a several Haemonculi will webway portals that are screened by warrior squads allow you to compete with Drop pod armies to an extent (although it's a little risky), allowing your close combat units to engage the Drop pod marines with out taking causulties first.

DE is a unforgiving army but it's tricky and very powerful. I'd hazzard to say it's a better army list then IG, Orks, and Deamonhunters. It's as good as Tau, Old Eldar and SOBs.

RE: Doesn't anyone have any rumors about the new Ork Codex?

skkipper — GMT

Therion talks as if Europe is the land of super armies, the Americans would never dream of. We have some very good players and instead of taking the cheese of the month army. They tend to follow their own way. I really doubt the power players of Europe could come to the states and win our big tourney, Adepticon. Who knows maybe some adepticon winners will come to Europe.

RE: Doesn't anyone have any rumors about the new Ork Codex?

The Professor — GMT

The strength of the DE army comes in the WWP wyche list. Being able to deliver ~3 wyche squads into CC with little to no shooting casualties is very strong against MEQs, especially when you have 3 triple DL Ravagers backing them up.

The weakness of the DE army is against anything that isn't MEQs, they simply don't have the horde killing power to deal with large amounts of troops.

The DE are a very skill dependent army that has many poor matchups and are very fragile, and yet in their niche, they can be very strong.

RE: Doesn't anyone have any rumors about the new Ork Codex?

NinjaRay — GMT

The DE can deal with hordes too. Massed str 3 attacks seem designed for killing hordes. It really comes down to how the army is built. Wyches don't crush MEQs with there close combat attacks so much as survive in Close Combat long enough for their succubus and weak but plentiful attacks to wear then enemy down.

When I first desided to play DE I was trying to build a better IG army (I always played Infantry heavy). I learned that DE warrior squads can be better at killing MEQs, point for point then IG squads, but the leadership tricks that IG have make a far more resilent army.

The list I play was Archon and Incubi retiue in raider, 6 Squads of Warriors each 10 man strong with 2 blaster and 2 dark Lances, 2-3 Haemonculi with gear and webway, 2 talos', and a 8 man wyche squad in raider. The Warriors and Haemoculi start on the table and try to advance or shoot up the enemy. I try to wait until turn three to drop the webway, but I'll drop them quicker if nessary. The Key is to get two webways out at once and try to have them atleast 18"s apart. This really increases your threat range for the raider bound melee squads. The Talos are mostly counter charge. Aginst Very static shooty armies, I'll try to run the Wabways deep into the table, using Warriors to keep the Haemoculi alive to deliver them.

To all Ork players, Sorry about the thread jack. I feel your pain, I play Orks as one of my main armies too.

RE: Doesn't anyone have any rumors about the new Ork Codex?

Dice Monkey — GMT

Posted By skkipper on 09/29/2006 2:31 PM
Therion talks as if Europe is the land of super armies, the Americans would never dream of. We have some very good players and instead of taking the cheese of the month army. They tend to follow their own way. I really doubt the power players of Europe could come to the states and win our big tourney, Adepticon. Who knows maybe some adepticon winners will come to Europe.

Therion is a very good player playing against other very good players with absolutely brutal armies. I think he would do quite well in the states as he has one the sharpest minds for tacticts and army strengths I have seen, Do not undersell him.

RE: Doesn't anyone have any rumors about the new Ork Codex?

Therion- — GMT

Nice replies people. Although I don't actually believe in most of the things you say about Dark Eldar, atleast you guys are trying unlike the worst nightmare guy. A few things:

In theory the worst army in the game might be a decent army nevertheless -- It's just a question of game balance. Tau isn't very competitive either but on occasion a Tau player will still gather a lot of wins and make it to the top tables, and the same applies to any other army. My opinion is that DE are too fragile to be anything else than the most handicapped list in the game simply because an equal points amount of Marines can exchange shots with them indefinately and end up winning big. I believe you can do funny things with Dark Eldar if you are on top of your game and know your opponent well, but this is all assuming that the opponent does not know what he is doing. Believe me or not but some players have such massive egos that eventhough they might be some of the best players around they still take the most effective army imaginable to tournaments.

Secondly, if you read closely I didn't make any claims about which country or continent or planet has the best players. I merely said that Americans tend to play weaker armies and the lists are much more varied. Some armies that are all but extinct in Europe still get played in the US. On many occasions I've cited this fact as a good thing. In addition, Europe only has one meaningful GT every year (EU population 456 million) and from two to three qualifiers to play in it, instead of more regional state wide GTs with a smaller pool of participating players. National tournaments of course exist and they are indeed numerous, but the meaning of a GT win is quite different in the EU and in the US.

RE: Doesn't anyone have any rumors about the new Ork Codex?

NinjaRay — GMT

Good Points Therion, US does play weeker armies over all, but that's because of GWUS and their GT and RTT rules, IMHO. Back in Second Ed and Earily Third Ed, My friends and I used to play the most broken(good) lists we could but we would do poorly do to the Tournement scoring. When 60% of your scores come from Painting, Sportsmanship, Army Comp and The Judges wims (yes, I've seen the judges in USGTs just subtract points from an over all score and call it their right as judges). More then anything this has left US players with less brutal armies as they have been punished for there efforts. It's funny I always assumed (and was told) that the US was the brutalist players and everyone else was nice and sporting. And Really that's what it comes down to "being Sporting". Sportsmanship means doing everything in your power to even the playing fields. GWUS (or maybe just GW) has pounded being sporting into us so strongly that Europe might have much more brutal armies and our only defense is to call it "cheesy or Bready" becasue that's what we have be trained to say.

Also THe US does not have GTs anymore, atleast not the way we used too. Now the closest thing we have is Games Day RTTs. I could be wrong, but to the best of my knowledge and checking the USGW site the GTs are dead in the states.

Finally, anyone playing aginst my DE need to know what I;m going to do in detail, other wise the DE will pull out some devistating manuvers.Terrain will also play a huge part in DE success. With decent terrain, a lot of the DE's weakness become less pronounced, but with low terrain they are meat on a hook. Also what can stand up to an equal points of Marines in a Shooting match and survive (that's the Marines main strenght, its' an Army that's resistant to small armys fire) and Yes I know that Necrons probably could, until you factor in heavy and speacial weapons.

RE: Doesn't anyone have any rumors about the new Ork Codex?

gorgon — GMT

Therion, I think you're right regarding more diverse lists in the U.S. My impression (only an impression since I haven't played in Europe) is that the lists there are more cookie-cutter. I don't chalk that all up to comp rules, however. The U.S. GT scene is all but dead now, but when it still had a pulse, it had moved away from quantitative comp scoring to squishier "theme" scoring. Yeah, that system was open to "tanking," but I don't think the threat of theme tanking was the only thing holding people back.

IMO, part of it is a contrast in attitudes between European and U.S. tournament players. If a U.S. player had come up with the uber-Seer Council army and won a GT with it, they'd probably be scorned in some circles, but recognized in others for having the ingenuity to completely break the army list and win with it.

However, if multiple players copied that winning list and brought it to the same tournament in the following year, I think a majority of U.S. players would see that development as unoriginal and unimaginative. I can understand the European attitude...it's a competition, so why not bring what you think gives you the best chance to win? That's perfectly logical. But I think many of the better players here would rather bring their own idea and try to win with it their way, as per the Sinatra tune. Again, that's not a value judgment on European players, just one person's observation about different attitudes.

RE: Doesn't anyone have any rumors about the new Ork Codex?

Reecius — GMT

atleast you guys are trying unlike the worst nightmare guy

The reason I didnt start in with the theory hammer is that ultimately, it is pointless. At that stage of a budding *female dog* fest, no matter what either of us said our only goal would be to disprove the other. Neither of us would have changed the other's point of view, or accepted any good points and it would have most likely degenerated into a flame war that made us both look like fools. Talking theory and tactics on forums can never really prove anything other than potentialities of one result or another in a very limited context. Untill you actually put models on the table and start rolling some dice, its all just talk. Theory hammer can't possibly account for all of the variables involved with a real game of 40K.

So when you called me out on the playground to "throw down a list" in the tactics section it made me laugh, what really would that prove? that i can make an imaginary list that would beat your imaginary list? that is pointless and ultimately unproveable, and smack talking and aggresion on line is juvenile and idiotic considering any 14 yea old dOOd can do it form the safety of their PC.

But, as others have said, the DE can very deffinately give MEQ's hell. Dropping two to three WWP in an opponants back line and bringing three full Wych squads into HtH with an enemy gunline is brutal. Hell, you can drop WWP's from warrior squads on your front line and wyches will still be highly likely to make it into combat the turn they come in (moving an average of 25.5", not taking into account the chances of one out of three squads rolling the 12" charge with the comabt drugs). The 6 min maxed warrior squads can shoot like hell for their points. They have the same BS and LD (baring the chapter master) as a SM las plas squad but have more wounds. Their only real weakness to SM's is the dropping Libby with Fear, which is a brutally effective against them, i admit.

Archons can destroy an entire SM shooty squad a game turn in HtH starting turn two.

Ravagers can drop 9 plasams cannon templates a turn on the move, which when utilizing terrain and focused fire can severly limit return fire.

Any mechanized list is toast Vs. all of the Dark Lances on the board.

Against Drop pod armies, put your hard hitters in reserve. If you go first, drop WWP's turn 2 to counter the pods, if you go second drop it turn one for the same effect.

Deamon bombs can be countered due to the high amount of shooting in the line squads which can do a hell of a lot of damage to enemy fast movers coming in to deliver the deamons, combined with countercharging from wychs. The agonizer and 4+ invul makes wyches excellent for taking out greater deamons, deamon princes and SM characters.

I could go on, but again, we can only speak from our own experiances, and you may have seen plenty of DE players get ground under powered armored boots, I have seen a lot of the frederick's of hollywood all stars beat SM players into the dirt.

At any rate, as i said, this is all just hot air untill you play a game. I stand behind my assertion that the DE are not the worst army in the game, period, and that they are in fact, brtual against MEQ's. The dubious distinction for worst list goes to walking orcs, IMHO, who very dearly need a rewrite in their codex.

RE: Doesn't anyone have any rumors about the new Ork Codex?

NinjaRay — GMT

/ignore Reecius

RE: Doesn't anyone have any rumors about the new Ork Codex?

Maximillion1 — GMT

OK. So, let's get back on topic. I'm looking for Ork Codex rumors. Anyone?

RE: Doesn't anyone have any rumors about the new Ork Codex?

stormboy97 — GMT

The problem with dark eldar not being a force is that you have to learn how to use it and the model dont inspire alot of conversion in the golden deamon people.

You could give a chimpanze a couple of hours to read the marine codex and he will have either drop pods or a mauled list "all royalty checks for using Ed's name should be mailed ASAP" those are the most powerful out of the list and there is a reason they work. Not bashing on you marines out there, you are using the cards dealt you.

Dark eldar require alittle thought and practice. You have to use speed and shock and allittle faith in the dice rolling average " please just be average" and there is no reason you should lose to marines.

I have won with dark eldar along with yarbough I believe his name was back in 3rd. I won with wichs in fourth because people said the army couldnt do it.

I could swear we had this dark eldar debate on hear before but here we go.........................

I think witch cult is more powerful of the 2 lists

6 raiders with 7 or 8 witches in each ..1 blaster and succubus with agonizer and plasma haywire gernades

1 lord tooled out ....drugs punisher gernades shadow field

1 Lt. punisher drugs gernades

3 ravagers 2 disintigraters one dark lance

2 raider squads 5 men dark lance

4 packs of dogs

you should be hit from on turn one by both lords and one squad and all vehicles should be stunned or dead unless they are behind cover.

1. standard mission 12 in all raider move 12 deploy 2 inch in front fleet 1-6 inch 12 inch charge for 3 different units. lets see thats 12+12+2+12+3= 41 inch on average how are those last 7 inches doing. Be honest and tell me you already knew they on average move that fast. and if you say ill just stay back than the raiders jump 24 behind cover within said 41 inch range for turn 2 charges instead of turn one..

10 independent dark lances not counting the ravagers. that can go tank or infantry hunting with the disintigrators firing on low pwer for 6 str4 ap3 shots with the dark lance all hitting on 3's.

the regular dark eldar is close to the same but you use 2 units of incubi with as many witches as you can fit.

If you refuse to believe that they are good and that us Americans are week players" I dont know where that crap started, " havnt seen any of you guys come across the pond and show us how to play. The pound to dollars is almost 2 to 1 so its cheap for you to do it. cowboy up and come on over for a GT. I dont think you could handle Adepticon so start at a GT.

and in responce to them not doing well over there so it sucks, maybe just maybe the good players are over here and your the one in the minors....

Marc Parker

RE: Doesn't anyone have any rumors about the new Ork Codex?

NinjaRay — GMT

@stormboy97: I do agree that the Wyche list is awesome, but I can't stand the thought of losing my Talos. Those guys are close combat monsters.

RE: Doesn't anyone have any rumors about the new Ork Codex?

stormboy97 — GMT

I hear you, but I gave in to the extra ravager when I went witches and never looked back. just love the extra fire power

RE: Doesn't anyone have any rumors about the new Ork Codex?

yakface — GMT

Feel free to start a thread about DE tactics in the tactics forum.