Latest posts for the thread "Reinventing grenades"

Reinventing grenades

Max — GMT

I'm not the biggest fan of how grenades are currently represented in 4e, as they are only used as a pre-assault piece of gear, and I think that's a shame that grenades have been cut down so much. I've been scratching my head about how to include grenades into the larger game and have come up with several thoughts on the matter.

1) Grenades shouldn't be more deadly than gunfire. Or what's the point of using small arms?
2) Grenades should be as disruptive an element as they are distructive. The knowledge that a grenade has landed close by is as effective as the actual weapon itself.
3) Grenades are best used when the enemy is dug in, as a way of winkling out bad guys from cover (when in range).
4) A squad is unlikely to throw grenades all at once. It would be hard to co-ordinate a simultaneous throw, and grenades are a rarer commodity than rifle ammo. Troops are unlikely to waste grenades in the middle of battle.

Given these thoughts, I came up with the following ideas:

1) A unit may opt to make a grenade attack in the shooting phase, as well as making a shooting attack. If they do that, then they may not assault or move in the assault phase. A grenade attack is treated as a standard shooting attack. The model with the best BS in the unit makes the attack, instead of using his normal weapon (if BS is equal, then any model can make the attack). Range for the attack is 12". Rate of fire is governed by the type of grenade used.

2) If the unit being attacked is hit, then:

2a) If the unit being attacked is in cover, it has to make a LD test, or be forced to make a fall-back move (taken immediatly, out-of-sequence). This represents the unit loosing its nerve, and getting out before the grenade goes off.
2b) If the unit is in cover and passes its leadership test, then all models in the unit are hit by the grenade attack (the squad is more bunched up). STR and AP, as well as any other special rules are governed by the type of grenade used. The squad may not take cover saves.
2c) If the unit is not in cover and hit, the unit must make a pinning test (with any relevant modifiers from the grenade type) in addition to any other effects the grenade has. STR, AP and area of effect are determined by the type of grenade used, as well as any special rules the grenade may have.

Some examples of grenade types:

Frag: STR 3, AP -, Assault 1/Blast (x2)
Plasma: STR4, AP4, Assault 1/Blast
Photon. STR2, AP -, Assault 1/Blast. Photon grenades have a -3 LD modifier to the pinning check.

RE: Reinventing grenades

happypants — GMT

I want RT grenades back, hallucinogen grenades rocked!

RE: Reinventing grenades

wight_widow — GMT

IMHO grenade attacks should have a range equal to the strength of the model throwing them, and should also affect the unit throwing them unless the unit - or the target - is behind hard cover or outside of 3". Grenade attacks should also ignore hard cover (on the target) and cause 1D3 hits per grenade thrown on target, to a maximum of the number of models in the target squad. (old city fight rules for small templates) Possibly divide the total number of hits as equally as possible between the target and throwing unit if the throwing unit is within 3" and neither is in hard cover. This would make them somewhat similar to grenades in real life - they've got a wound radius larger than any normal human being can throw them, hence their funtion as trench clearers. Hard Cover represents surfaces (literally) hard and sturdy enough to absorb and deflect the shrapnel.

but I digress. RT grenades were all right when RT was played - closer to a true skirmish game than the typical platoon-to-company sized action now depicted in 40k. You can't throw a grenade as far as a gun can shoot though - otherwise, why would anyone make or use grenade launchers?

RE: Reinventing grenades

Max — GMT

A coupe of questions, wight.

With grenade ranges varying (usually) between 3-4", would they be used? And what would you call "hard cover"? Cover with a 4+ ir more save? Or cover that has a specific descriptor, something like: "Hard cover is [all] cover made from (materials X,Y,Z) and is shaped like (shapes X,Y,Z)"

RE: Reinventing grenades

djones520 — GMT

Posted By happypants on 01/11/2007 5:12 PM
I want RT grenades back, hallucinogen grenades rocked!

Hell yeah. I was reading through the 2nd Edition rulebook yesterday about Grenades, getting all nostalgic and stuff.

RE: Reinventing grenades

Strangelooper — GMT

Vortex grenades!

These rules would certainly make the IG grenade launcher pretty kick-donkey.

RE: Reinventing grenades

wight_widow — GMT

@Max: By Hard Cover I did indeed mean cover providing a basic (ie before stealth, chameleonic chitin, or small targets) 4+ save. Pretty much the only things that will provide this are buildings, ruins, bulkheads, trenches, vehicles wrecks, and the like. Their use would be limited, but keep in mind this is a one-point piece of wargear we're talking about. They'd be strong on high terrain boards, less so on more open boards. In a Guard-on-Guard fight, for instance, you might have a squad of Stormies blow a hole in their NMEs Chimmie, pinning the squad inside, then following up the next turn using their grenades as a pseudo-flamer effect to spread some love to the grunts cowering in the wreck. Assault Marines might get a marginally better round of shooting than if they had used their pistols against, say, uber-Hormies skulking in some gore-splattered trench - or 4+ SV troops standing in the open.

RE: Reinventing grenades

Max — GMT

I remember RT grenades. I remember *never* playing as IG in either RT or 2nd ed, seeing as how IG got the thin end of the stick there!

Anyway. Wight, wouldn't it be better to do Strx2 when determining range? See, at 3", even in CoD situations, that very, very short ranged. May as well charge the unit rather than throw a grennie!

Here's a thought. Should grenade attacks have the barrage attribute, to signify they can be thrown from (relative) safety?

RE: Reinventing grenades

Mr. X — GMT

I agree that 3-4" is a little short, but I think grenades should be an assault weapon. Pull the pin, throw, rev up the chainsword.

Frag grenades should maybe lose their assault advantage if thrown, or be raised to 2 pts/model.

RE: Reinventing grenades

HellsGuardian316 — GMT

How bout keeping it simple

Grenades have a range that it x2 the strength of the model throwing it. (E.G. A space marine can throw 8")
If your throwing grenades then you cannot shoot any other type of weapons including assualt (unless your charactor is allowed to fire two weapons in one turn)
The Grenade is a basic Frag grenade (Str 4 - AP 6) regardless of race.
It is an instant hit so you only roll to wound. Eg if your squad has 4 models then you roll 4 dice to wound, if you have 8 then you roll 8. This takes into account that the codex's say that every model in the unit has a grenade so the more models in the unit the more damage you do.
Saves as normal, causes the unit under fire to take a pinning test.

Nice and simple and gives the player a choice rather than a new way to over kill things

RE: Reinventing grenades

Nurglitch — GMT

Deleted

RE: Reinventing grenades

wight_widow — GMT

Well, Max, if I said that, I'd have to accept that a grenade has effectively the same template as an ordnance piece, albeit much less powerful. A 5" blast diameter grenade as standard WOULD actually be sort of cool, now that I think about it though. Frag grenades in launchers would suddenly become a much less situational weapon.

It's actually balanced, IMHO, if we marry it to your idea of a single grenade attack per squad per turn, as you could then just resolve all grenades like ordnance. The template hits at S3 and ignores all cover saves of 5+ or worse, before modifiers. An unmodified cover save of 4+ deflects the blast if the blast would pass through it - i.e. if a grenade scatters into a trench, the template will affect all models struck up until the next bend in it - shrapnel moves in a straight line, unlike, for instance, a barbed strangler shot. If someone could shoot at you at a range of 2.5" from where the grenade landed without you getting a 4+ save, you're hit. Pretty much S as type, AP as type Heavy 1 G Sx2" Ordnance. Possibly allow the shooting unit to waive the scatter roll if they are within their strength in inches to the targetted model. It would fit with the GW tradition of scale distortion at close ranges based on the sizes of their models.

Under old-school city fight rules, this grenade would cause d6 hits on units within a given terrain feature, ignoring all cover saves, up to a maximum number of hits equal to the number of members in the squad. Rule of thumb is measure range with strength UP as well as ACROSS - because of gravity you can drop grenades at the bottom of a 900 foot-tall fortified tower, but try throwing them back up. Maybe allow cover saves for units over the grenades range down in inches as it would probably explode above them.

Nurglitch's idea is very good too. 4th is not really the place for too many extra dice or templates for one-point wargear. This is giving me some ideas for a homebrew skirmish game I might try to run up at the club sometime, though.