Latest posts for the thread "Space Wolves Drop Pod rule silliness"

Space Wolves Drop Pod rule silliness

Lowinor — GMT

From the best drop pod list thread:

Durandal wrote:

Wolves still get their pods for free, so you don't lose points by going that route.

This assertion was made in the thread, countered, but not really discussed. After it piquing my interest, I looked over the relevant text...

Space Wolves Codex, pg. 4

Drop Pods. At the start of a battle where you can use the Deep Strike rules, you can declare that your Space Wolves are deploying by ... drop pods ... Models doing this deploy using the Deep Strike rules ... Only the following can deploy from drop pods. No other rmodels in the army can be used in this mission

Space Wolves FAQ (emphasis mine)

these notes should provide you with the rules clarifications you need to play games

Space Wolves FAQ

Drop Pods. Use the rules for Drop Pod Assault on p.21 of Codex: Space Marines

So, the FAQ gives a SW general access to the Drop Pod Assault rule.

The SW Drop Pods rule lets you declare at game time that your army is arriving via pods, if Deep Strike is in play. The clarification for the rule says to use Drop Pod Assault.

So, if I have a SW army, and Deep Strike is in play, I declare they're coming in on drop pods... do I get free pods?

Note 1: To me this is a case of odd and inderminate rules writing, as the rules in the FAQ clarify as opposed to replace the mentioned rules in the Codex.

Note 2: Even if it's viable, it would only be useful if you could guarantee Deep Strike, as otherwise to get any point benefit, you end up with a lot of 6"/6" models deploying as normal infantry if at any time Deep Strike isn't available.

RE: Space Wolves Drop Pod rule silliness

Lordhat — GMT

Posted By Lowinor on 04/03/2007 7:03 PM
From the best drop pod list thread:

Durandal wrote:Wolves still get their pods for free, so you don't lose points by going that route.

This assertion was made in the thread, countered, but not really discussed. After it piquing my interest, I looked over the relevant text...

Space Wolves Codex, pg. 4 wrote:Drop Pods. At the start of a battle where you can use the Deep Strike rules, you can declare that your Space Wolves are deploying by ... drop pods ... Models doing this deploy using the Deep Strike rules ... Only the following can deploy from drop pods. No other rmodels in the army can be used in this mission

Space Wolves FAQ (emphasis mine) wrote:these notes should provide you with the rules clarifications you need to play games

Space Wolves FAQ wrote:Drop Pods. Use the rules for Drop Pod Assault on p.21 of Codex: Space Marines

So, the FAQ gives a SW general access to the Drop Pod Assault rule.

The SW Drop Pods rule lets you declare at game time that your army is arriving via pods, if Deep Strike is in play. The clarification for the rule says to use Drop Pod Assault.

So, if I have a SW army, and Deep Strike is in play, I declare they're coming in on drop pods... do I get free pods?

Note 1: To me this is a case of odd and inderminate rules writing, as the rules in the FAQ clarify as opposed to replace the mentioned rules in the Codex.

Note 2: Even if it's viable, it would only be useful if you could guarantee Deep Strike, as otherwise to get any point benefit, you end up with a lot of 6"/6" models deploying as normal infantry if at any time Deep Strike isn't available.

The Drop Pod Assault can be used whether or not Deep Strike is part of the mission. No you don't get free pods, as the FAQ to use the rules in the SM book.

C:SM Pg 21:

".....(per the FAQ, this portion of the sentence is supplanted by the Space Wolves Codex, detailing which units may use a drop pod)... may be equipped with a drop pod (see the transport entry for details). If so they may not select any other transport option. Such units remain in reserve and arrive by drop pod, even if the Mission being played does not normally allow Reserves or Deep Strike. ....."

Emphasis mine.

Referring to the entry for drop pods in C:SM, you see that the pods cost XX points each, so you must pay the points to get them.

The FAQ is NOT odd or indeterminate (for once). It CLEARLY says to use the rules found in C:SM, with the only exeptions being those which are stated in the the very next sentence!

RE: Space Wolves Drop Pod rule silliness

Lowinor — GMT

It's a clarification, not a replacement. That's kinda the issue here -- what exactly is it clarifying?

I'd love to hear from Durandal about he plays this and/or the rules argument for it.

RE: Space Wolves Drop Pod rule silliness

Green Bloater — GMT

You pay for the drop pods like everyone else. Stop being such an arse about it.

- Greenie

RE: Space Wolves Drop Pod rule silliness

Lowinor — GMT

Posted By Green Bloater on 04/04/2007 10:15 AM
You pay for the drop pods like everyone else. Stop being such an arse about it.

Sweet irony.

I pay for my pods as it is, and I don't really think using any of this is really reasonable just due to the lack of clarity of the whole thing. However, an ad hominem attack does not make an argument.

RE: Space Wolves Drop Pod rule silliness

Green Bloater — GMT

Three cheers for a little common sense. Hip hip and all that bloody rot.

- Greenie

RE: Space Wolves Drop Pod rule silliness

beef — GMT

where does it say SW have to pay for there pods?

RE: Space Wolves Drop Pod rule silliness

Green Bloater — GMT

Oh this is a RAW thing. Sorry.

- Greenie

RE: Space Wolves Drop Pod rule silliness

Lordhat — GMT

Posted By Lowinor on 04/04/2007 9:23 AM
It's a clarification, not a replacement. That's kinda the issue here -- what exactly is it clarifying?

I'd love to hear from Durandal about he plays this and/or the rules argument for it.

I don't understand where you get that it's a clarification. The FAQ CLEARLY says to use the rules in C:SM. C:SM CLEARLY says to look at the appropriate page for all the pertinent details on Drop Pods. Points cost is definitely a pertinent detail.

RE: Space Wolves Drop Pod rule silliness

Mannahnin — GMT

Agreed.

RE: Space Wolves Drop Pod rule silliness

Durandal — GMT

I've not played my wolves with the new rules. Been too busy with IG and now Eldar and I hadn't bothered to look at the FAQ. Since Wolves don't get any of the new codex benefits such as Rites of Battle or Littanies of Hate, I assumed they still used their old mechanics for other things as well.

That being said, the FAQ simply states that space wolves use the drop pod rules in Codex Space Marines on P21. Page 21 of C:SM gives the new mechanics but does not require the wolves to pay the cost of the transport, it just references the unit entry. According to the FAQ, only Land Speeder costs use the costs given in C:SM. Other examples of Wolves not paying the same cost as C:SM are 75 vs 85 pts for Whirlwinds, 20pt PW weapon combat servitors and 5pts more for Vindicators. I would make the argument that C:SW still has the drop pod cost baked into the cost of your 18pt grey hunters and therefore they would get them for free.

I would prefer if GW would just get off their duff and update C:SW, including 13th company there in. There are too many holes, like a Wolf priest having Healing Potions and Fang of Morkai (Reductor/Narthecuim) to ignore the first "TWO" wounds his unit takes, the overcosted bikers, assault marines and undercosted whirlwinds, and the ability to master craft assault cannons and cyclone missile launchers on Wolf Guard Terminators.

RE: Space Wolves Drop Pod rule silliness

beef — GMT

so free drop pods by what you are saying.

RE: Space Wolves Drop Pod rule silliness

Breotan — GMT

look at the appropriate page for all the pertinent details on Drop Pods

Let's follow the logic process here using RAW.

The FAQ says use rules on C:SM, page 21. C:SM, page 21 says see the transport entry for details. What does the transport entry for Drop Pods say in the C:SW?

RE: Space Wolves Drop Pod rule silliness

Durandal — GMT

Yes, I think you could make the case for free drop pods for SW, if only because GW left it somewhat ambiguous in their text and they failed to cover all the bases when FAQing SW to match the rules in C:SM.

I wouldn't push it hard. If I were break out my wolves and use this tactic I would clarify it with my opponents first to avoid any trouble later. This is clearly something where if you look at your opponents army while setting up and go "Oh, I'm drop podding all my infantry squads" it will reflect poorly upon you.

RE: Space Wolves Drop Pod rule silliness

ender502 — GMT

This is ridicilous...

The SW dex also says to see codex space marines for dreadnaughts. But it never mentions a price. Does that make the dread free? No. You use the price in the codex entry.

Same thing for pods....

The "Clarification" is for which wolves are able to use pods. The "replacement" is for the rules that detail how pods are used.

There is no argument to be made that SW get free pods. Unless you also agree they get the free dreads.

ender502

RE: Space Wolves Drop Pod rule silliness

Durandal — GMT

If it was as simple text as "Troops: Blood Claws -> Transport options: Drop Pod, See codex space marines" I would agree Ender. While that probably was GW's intention why didn't they just say so? Why "See C:SM p21" rather then "Units may purchase a drop pod as a transport option, see C:SM p21"?

RE: Space Wolves Drop Pod rule silliness

Green Bloater — GMT

I think ender502 has hit the proverbial nail right on the head.

- Greenie

RE: Space Wolves Drop Pod rule silliness

Lowinor — GMT

Bloater and ender, you're missing the point -- at least, my argument, which is a bit different from Durandal's.

The SW drop pod rules say that you can, at the start of a battle, declare that all (valid) units in your army are arriving via drop pod. The FAQ then, noting that it is specifically a clarification, to use the SM drop pod rules -- not to replace the drop pod rules.

So, the SW codex gives you a time that is after list creation to declare that everything you've got that's poddable is arriving in pods. Since it's after list creation, you can't pay points for the pods. Basically, use the SW rules, and where it says "arrive by drop pod", use the SM codex drop pod rules instead of Deep Strike.

Again, not that I'm advocating anyone try this...

RE: Space Wolves Drop Pod rule silliness

Mannahnin — GMT

It's still a load of indefensible bullpucky. You use the drop pod rules from codex: space marines. Which include the points cost.

There is absolutely no argument to be made for SW to get free drop pods. Anyone who says differently is deluding themselves.

RE: Space Wolves Drop Pod rule silliness

ender502 — GMT

Lowinar-

I think I see where you are going wrong. There are no "Space Wolf Drop pod rules." The original dex included these but they were supplanted in the SW FAQ which states.... "Use the rules for drop pod assault on P. 21 of Codex: Space Marines. Follow the Codex: Space Wolves list of models that can utilize drop pods."

You continue to try and use the Drop Pod rules from Codex: SW but the FAQ clearly states you are in error. The only way your argument holds water is if you ignore the SW FAQ.

again...

"Use the rules for drop pod assault on P. 21 of Codex: Space Marines. Follow the Codex: Space Wolves list of models that can utilize drop pods."

It is clear and unambigous.

ender502

RE: Space Wolves Drop Pod rule silliness

Lowinor — GMT

Yes, I'm not suggesting anyone try this, it's absurd.

No one has made any real argument as to why it's not viable. It's never going to pass a "least advantageous interpretation"* test. No one should use it.

The FAQ says to use the C:SM rules, but use the SW rules for which units can take drop pods. The SW rules specify certain models declared at battle start. Using the standard interpretation (which, I should point out, I use exclusively) requires a leap of interpretation that, while reasonable, isn't in the rules themselves. The reader has to read more in to the rules than are actually printed -- and I'd argue that read in a vacuum without a history of 40k game knoweldge, the standard interpretation isn't necessarily the most obvious reading.

Remember, the FAQ says to use the SM rules for podding itself and the SW list of models which can pod. The SM rules give a list of SM units which must be equipped with pods. The SW rules give a list of SW units which must be declared at battle start (if Deep Strike is in play). Of course, the next step in the line of argumentation is that SW units can't purchase pods and must rely on the battle-start declaration (only when Deep Strike is in play) -- being equipped with a drop pod only helps the SM units listed as poddable, the SW use a different rule for determining who can pod.

* Realistically, if you take the SW rules for which models can use pods (power armor, scouts, dreads on missions which allow Deep Strike), you lose access to OBEL when podding and can't pod in missions without Deep Strike. In an environment without exact knowledge of mission parameters, I wouldn't call this advantageous over the standard setup.

RE: Space Wolves Drop Pod rule silliness

Green Bloater — GMT

I remember when you could drop pod bikers. That was cool.

- Greenie

Re:Space Wolves Drop Pod rule silliness

leoko4321 — GMT

My friend says that if space wolfs have even 1 unit in a drop pod then they must drop pod all units... is this correct

Re:Space Wolves Drop Pod rule silliness

Gorkamorka — GMT

This thread is 3 years old... I'd start a new one.

Space Wolves Drop Pod rule silliness

Karon — GMT

Yeah, they we're talking about the old SW codex.

Why in hell do newbies ressurect year old threads?

Space Wolves Drop Pod rule silliness

Cheex — GMT

Because the forum quicksearch feature by default arranges its results by ascending date rather than descending date. This means it displays the oldest threads first rather than the newest - an issue I've already raised in the Nuts&Bolts forum.

Looks like he just did a search for Space Wolves and found that.