Posted By Alpharius on 07/05/2007 7:49 AM

Comments like these, plus GW's new "dumb it down" Codex philoposphy really make me worry for the future of the youth (!) of the World.

Posted By Alpharius on 07/05/2007 7:49 AM

Comments like these, plus GW's new "dumb it down" Codex philoposphy really make me worry for the future of the youth (!) of the World.

Well, the future of Wargaming, really...

Posted By Osbad on 07/06/2007 12:06 AM

Posted By Alpharius on 07/05/2007 7:49 AM

Comments like these, plus GW's new "dumb it down" Codex philoposphy really make me worry for the future of the youth (!) of the World.

Well, the future of Wargaming, really...

I note the winky eye, and your age.  I personally am a child of the summer of lurv, which makes me rapidly approaching 40...

It's not that the game is too complex or that I couldn't understand it, but that it just didn't "feel right".  "Winning" initiative because I was a faster troop type would mean that I was actually worse off and got walked all over by slower ones who in going second got to react to my choices of attack/defence dice - which actually handed them the advantage.  Just felt horribly wrong to me.

Posted By Caern on 07/06/2007 6:18 AM

Posted By Osbad on 07/06/2007 12:06 AM

It's not that the game is too complex or that I couldn't understand it, but that it just didn't "feel right".  "Winning" initiative because I was a faster troop type would mean that I was actually worse off and got walked all over by slower ones who in going second got to react to my choices of attack/defence dice - which actually handed them the advantage.  Just felt horribly wrong to me.

It felt horribly wrong because it IS wrong. A re-reading of the rules is in order for you and your group. The initiative winner places their dice last, the loser is the one forced to commit dice first.

Posted By Osbad on 07/05/2007 3:50 AM
I love the models, but couldn't get on with the game, even though I really wanted to. Just seemed too counter-intuitive to me. Maybe I just didn't try hard enough, but it was all too much of a struggle.

I'm hoping these new rules will brighten my day!

Posted By Cybele on 07/09/2007 7:54 AM

Posted By Osbad on 07/05/2007 3:50 AM
I love the models, but couldn't get on with the game, even though I really wanted to. Just seemed too counter-intuitive to me. Maybe I just didn't try hard enough, but it was all too much of a struggle.

I'm hoping these new rules will brighten my day!

Isn't counter-intuitive just a fancy word for strategy???

Posted By Asmodai on 07/09/2007 8:43 AM

Posted By Cybele on 07/09/2007 7:54 AM

Posted By Osbad on 07/05/2007 3:50 AM
I love the models, but couldn't get on with the game, even though I really wanted to. Just seemed too counter-intuitive to me. Maybe I just didn't try hard enough, but it was all too much of a struggle.

I'm hoping these new rules will brighten my day!

Isn't counter-intuitive just a fancy word for strategy???

No.

Posted By brotherskeeper74 on 07/11/2007 1:07 PM
This was in my e-mail today:

Now that is a funny quote...

Oh, they're a victim of something alright, but it is probably a lot closer to "incompetence" in how they've handled the transition away from detailed skirmish rules and metal models than actual "success", at least at this point!

A better analogy might be they are the victim of a massive 5000 car pile up of rubberneckers and ghouls on the opposite side of the freeway that just had a rather severe accident as well...

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/174473/175475.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/174473/175475.page GMT
Hopefully the rules will be solid. I may have been able to make those Clix figures look good after a repaint, but you can't do the same with rules!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/174473/175486.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/174473/175486.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/174473/175589.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/174473/175589.page GMT
The other nice thing is picking up two small forces won't add to my painting queue.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/174473/175625.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/174473/175625.page GMT AT-43. Which isn't a terrible thing!
Looking forward now to seeing more plastics- those wolfen look sweet!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/174473/175662.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/174473/175662.page GMT
I think though that they will lose a good deal of their old customers and exchange them for new ones, now that the scale of the game has been upped. Long gone are the days of an army with just 10 models in Confrontation 2 and tending to play about 300 point games. While you can certainly still do that, those 10 models will be inside 2 or 3 units, rather than acting as individuals, resulting in less action on the board as a whole. The new minumum is more like 20 models for a good game with lots of things happening.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/174473/175675.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/174473/175675.page GMT All they needed was a revised rulebook written by a native english speaker and to overhaul their card system to bring everything together.
And yes I am a bitterly dissapointed Rackham player who loves the models which they have now deemed to complicated for people to paint so they will make 28mm barbie dolls, might as well break out my medieval themed lego men err... I mean prepainted interchangable dynamic posed and customisable figures.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/174473/175764.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/174473/175764.page GMT

Posted By Caern on 07/12/2007 2:48 PM
I think though that they will lose a good deal of their old customers and exchange them for new ones, now that the scale of the game has been upped. Long gone are the days of an army with just 10 models in Confrontation 2 and tending to play about 300 point games. While you can certainly still do that, those 10 models will be inside 2 or 3 units, rather than acting as individuals, resulting in less action on the board as a whole. The new minumum is more like 20 models for a good game with lots of things happening.

Its a shame for those that like C3.5 and all, but bottom line, there weren't enough of them to make continuing to support the game viable.  All that kept the range going at all was people buying the beautiful metals for painting and for other games.

I think Rackham have done the right thing by biting the bullet and changing tacl completely like this.

If I'd been more heavily invested in C3.5 I may have felt differently, but as someone who only really dabbled and never really liked the rules I think they are doing the right thing.  The modified AT-43 rules look sound - and I have played enough AT-43 to know I will like the new game.  A simple set of rules doesn't necessarily make for a less enjoyable game (give me LotR for satisfying gameplay over 40k's complexity of rules anyday! )  As for whether I will continue to like the new plastics depends on how well they are painted, and that hasn't been seen yet.  I appreciate you can repaint them easily enough, but as I am being asked to pay a premium over unpainted plastics for the figures, I want to get value for money.  AT-43 just about does it, but Fantasy figures are harder to paint well simply - more exposed flesh, few "uniforms" that give passable results from just flat colour and a wash, etc.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/174473/175766.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/174473/175766.page GMT WHFB,.. which I already do. Or maybe I would play LOTR,... okay I do that too. Now why do I want to play a third fantasy game that offers nothing new? This smacks of AT-43 fantasy style, and I see no good reason to invest in it. 3.0 was a decent enough rules set, and quite fun. It offered something completely different. A very detailed fantasy skirmish game. Now they expect you to buy many more figs (prepainted plastic at that) with a very watered down rules system. Sorry, but this puts the final nail in the coffin for me, and from the sounds of it the group I play with. On first look, and second look,. and third look,.. it just looks horrible. A "painted lady" for sure.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/174473/175807.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/174473/175807.page GMT
" Nevertheless, we have planned to release rules that will reach a level of detail equivalent to the previous editions of Confrontation, similar to Dogs of War or the rules of AT-43 Tactics published in Cry Havoc (vol.15 for the English version and vol.17 for the French one). They will be available in a future Cry Havoc and will be based on Confrontation: the Age of the Rag’narok. "

They may be great, they may be horrible, but it's probably best to see how these turn out before your group pounds in that last nail.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/174473/175808.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/174473/175808.page GMT
Will have to see what they come up with down the line, but it doesn't look good at this point. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/174473/175809.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/174473/175809.page GMT

Posted By Caern on 07/13/2007 9:14 AM
You may want to hold onto your figs awhile yet. Jean Bey (Rackam's pres) had this to say today

" Nevertheless, we have planned to release rules that will reach a level of detail equivalent to the previous editions of Confrontation, similar to Dogs of War or the rules of AT-43 Tactics published in Cry Havoc (vol.15 for the English version and vol.17 for the French one). They will be available in a future Cry Havoc and will be based on Confrontation: the Age of the Rag’narok. "

They may be great, they may be horrible, but it's probably best to see how these turn out before your group pounds in that last nail.

Wow!

This is some (potentially) good news!

Maybe, just maybe, skirmish isn't dead...

Thanks for that update!

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/174473/175824.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/174473/175824.page GMT Plastic wulfen:

http://www.rackham.fr/newsletter/rackham/img/2007_06_18_WF_C4_2A.jpg

http://www.rackham.fr/newsletter/rackham/img/2007_06_18_WF_C4_2B.jpg

http://www.rackham.fr/newsletter/rackham/img/2007_06_18_WF_C4_1A.jpg

http://www.rackham.fr/newsletter/rackham/img/2007_06_18_WF_C4_1B.jpg

http://www.rackham.fr/newsletter/rackham/img/2007_06_18_WF_C4_1C.jpg

Can any of the anti-plastic whiners make your metal look that good?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/174473/175831.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/174473/175831.page GMT And the main jist of the last couple of posts in that the new rules blow. The rubber dolls are just icing on the cake.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/174473/175832.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/174473/175832.page GMT



I am sure someone out there can lay down some awesome paint on these things, but in the end they are still what they are and I stopped playing with these about 25 years ago.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/174473/175841.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/174473/175841.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/174473/175926.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/174473/175926.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/174473/176011.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/174473/176011.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/174473/176035.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/174473/176035.page GMT
"I'm sorry, but when you get right down to it, all cars are in the end, simply a means of transportation too, too. Thinking of them as anything more than that is simply a learned justification for spending money on a hobby that might otherwise seem childish."

"I'm sorry, but when you get right down to it, all sports are in the end, simply tossing a ball around, too. Thinking of them as anything more than that is simply a learned justification for spending money on a hobby that might otherwise seem childish."

Uh huh.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/174473/176036.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/174473/176036.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/174473/176037.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/174473/176037.page GMT
The point isn't that the production paint will look like that (The production paint will be much simpler.), the point is that is what a skilled painter can do with plastic. Some seem to believe that plastic is somehow inherently inferior for painting. That is total rubbish.

Toreador: Obviously you don't play WHFB. Or maybe just not Brettonians. So what? And metals aren't bendy? (You have never seen a tin spear or banner pole, I guess.) No, I suppose they often just break instead.....

Back on topic, the rules are very similar to AT-43. If you don't like AT-43 at all, then you probably won't like them. I am not sure how well squad level combat will work, but I anticipate it will lead to quicker games (less stat keeping), which can be a good thing. Overall, it actually reminded me alot of how Warmcahine/Hordes plays.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/174473/176127.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/174473/176127.page GMT WHFB, and have painted a few Brettonian figs. Until they figure out how to get rid of mold lines and to get undercuts plastic will be inferior. Now, with WHFB I am not paying for prepainted, pre-assembled figs, so I pose and paint them how I like. Because of the one piece molds the some of the AT-43 figs look a lot like what I posted above. I liked the concept art of the red blok, but the figs were a major disappointment. And the rules tend to be ok for at-43, but like I said, making them fast play mass combat kills one of the few reasons I played Confrontation. There is really no reason to keep it up now that they are going this way. I will buy a few metals as they put them out, but as a game, it is dead to me.

Odd that WM/Hordes is very much about each individual model.To me it is more like Confrontation is, and the new way is a lot more like how 40k is. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/174473/176187.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/174473/176187.page GMT AT minis are at least 5 pieces]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/174473/176194.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/174473/176194.page GMT The paint jobs are nice, and make the figs look a lot better in these shots, but the ones in the box just make the bad poses worse....




]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/174473/176200.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/174473/176200.page GMT

Posted By Duncan_Idaho on 07/16/2007 2:21 PM
AT minis are at least 5 pieces

Duncan,

While that may be true, I'm pretty sure that you don't HAVE to agree with EVERYTHING Rackham says, and you don't HAVE to LOVE everything they put out!

It is OK to disagree, even if only occasionally.

I'm fairly confident that by doing so, you will not be assaulted, and possibly killed, by French commandos wearing ninja black singlets emblazoned with big scary Red Dragons on them.

Of course, I can't be 100% positive of that...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/174473/176246.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/174473/176246.page GMT

Posted By Alpharius on 07/16/2007 7:53 PM

Posted By Duncan_Idaho on 07/16/2007 2:21 PM
AT minis are at least 5 pieces

Duncan,

While that may be true, I'm pretty sure that you don't HAVE to agree with EVERYTHING Rackham says, and you don't HAVE to LOVE everything they put out!

It is OK to disagree, even if only occasionally.

I'm fairly confident that by doing so, you will not be assaulted, and possibly killed, by French commandos wearing ninja black singlets emblazoned with big scary Red Dragons on them.

Of course, I can't be 100% positive of that...

It's kind of interesting watching Toredor and Duncan post and counter post the way Toredor posts on every thread critical of GW though. Ironic counterpoint in some ways. No matter what positve spin comes in this thread Toredor has a negative counterspin to it.

After investing several hundred dollaras in Rackham I'm fairly fine with the idea of change. My net investment with Rackham and the damge the changes will do to it is less by far than what the new chaos codex is promising. I had hoped for clean plastics ala GW, but I'm curious about how th prepaints will work.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/174473/176253.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/174473/176253.page GMT

Posted By Toreador on 07/16/2007 3:06 PM
and yet they look like this....
The paint jobs are nice, and make the figs look a lot better in these shots, but the ones in the box just make the bad poses worse....

Hey.  Look at this way.  At least they don't have one fist raised in the air and an eternal scream on his face. 
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/174473/176259.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/174473/176259.page GMT No, I don´t have to agree with everything Rackham does and there is quite some I don´t like. But if one says they are one piece and they are not, wouldn´t it be right to put it right?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/174473/176273.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/174473/176273.page GMT
The minimum squad size is six models. In the eighteen Rackham models I have, the most repeated model is at three. No combination of the models I have can be used to play the new Confrontation.

The game has completely changed in scope. It is no longer a skirmish game (which is what I wanted to play.) It is now a squad level game.

Judging from the Griffin information posted, a good portion of the special abilities (perhaps 50% or more) that each model could possess has been wiped out.

The mechanic where you picked dice for attack and defence, it's a similar mechanic to the focus/fury mechanic in HordeMachine. It focused on decisions regarding individual models and their resources.

That focused strategy is now gone. The game is faster (Hurray!) but somehow it is now a bigger waste of my time.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/174473/176306.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/174473/176306.page GMT

Posted By Duncan_Idaho on 07/16/2007 11:59 PM
@Alpharius
No, I don´t have to agree with everything Rackham does and there is quite some I don´t like. But if one says they are one piece and they are not, wouldn´t it be right to put it right?

How dare you answer a factual question!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/174473/176307.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/174473/176307.page GMT
I can defend a company when they do little things, but I can see something better from it. Rackham has pretty much tossed what I like on the ground, jumped on it and took a whiz! I see nothing to salvage. I was afraid when AT-43 came out. My fears were realized.

And the one piece comment was somewhat sarcastic. The poses look like they were cast one piece. With only replaceable heads, they come to you one piece and have to be cut apart to be reposed. Not a big fan of that on something I am paying a premium for.

It just makes me mad for a company to go this direction, and no logic can make me go that way. So the game as a whole is dead to me. I have under 15 models each of 4 factions, and was planing on another. But not now. No reason.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/174473/176312.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/174473/176312.page GMT

Posted By Duncan_Idaho on 07/16/2007 11:59 PM
@Alpharius
No, I don´t have to agree with everything Rackham does and there is quite some I don´t like. But if one says they are one piece and they are not, wouldn´t it be right to put it right?

Duncan: absolutely!

And I'll admit, I'm biased in this case because I really, really don't like the direction that Rackham has decided to take the game.

I'm with Redstripe and Toreador on this one, though sadly, I've apparently got a much larger investment of miniatures than Redstripe!

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/174473/176318.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/174473/176318.page GMT Judging from the Griffin information posted, a good portion of the special abilities (perhaps 50% or more) that each model could possess has been wiped out.

The mechanic where you picked dice for attack and defence, it's a similar mechanic to the focus/fury mechanic in HordeMachine. It focused on decisions regarding individual models and their resources.

Posted By methoderik on 07/17/2007 10:49 AM
Wow! Toreador you do not like the direction Rackham is going and you think AT-43 is a junky clicky game...

Shocker!

Maybe post a few hundred more times about it...

Posted By Asmodai on 07/17/2007 7:08 PM
Is it WFB-like?

The rules I read suggested that formations were the exception, not the norm. It's more like Fantasy 40K than WFB.

That said, Rackham won't burn your 3e rulebooks. No one will punch you in the arm if you keep fielding skirmish armies. In some ways having a settled game without tons of new models shoveled out every month can be a good thing.

Posted By syr8766 on 07/18/2007 6:29 PM
That was a time of really good games/minis that have just gone away. 1999 comes to mind as also from that era. 'tis a shame, really.