Latest posts for the thread "GW forbids any kind of Fanwork movies"

GW forbids any kind of Fanwork movies

Galatea — GMT

GW's nwe IP-Policiy forbids any kind of Fanwork Movies and Films.
It is ours now to show that we are not willing to let that happen to us.
Today it's the movies, tomorrow they may get the idea of forbidding any Fanwork stories and Fluffworks.
The whole community sat still far enough - now it is time to show them that we aren't the mindless consume-kiddies they like to think we are.

So spread this message to all forums you know and do your part.
Contact the press if you have any connnections!
We will not go down quietly in the night!

For the Emperor! For Damnatus! But mostly - FOR US!

http://www.damnatus.com
http://www.forenplanet.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19488
http://www.forenplanet.de/showthread.php?s...5669#post525669

The DAMNATUS Decision now affects all of us - British and Americans too are now not allowed any more to create and make films because some parts of the Anglo-American legal system do not work together perfectly with the Continental European

RE: GW forbids any kind of Fanwork movies

Vero — GMT

that's a terrible decision by GW. I can see why they made it, I just can't agree with it.

RE: GW forbids any kind of Fanwork movies

Frazzled — GMT

Cry me a river and call me when you have a real problem.

RE: GW forbids any kind of Fanwork movies

Grot 6 — GMT

??? After you beg Kirby with hat in hand, you now want to knuckle up with them?

Why don't you take the smart approach and let your lawyers get together with them and show them the financial goldmine that a movie, and possible features or a series would give them. The only issue you have is cash. Kirby can be bought, he's already shown that. You just have to figure out how much hes going to take out of your pocket, though...

Trust me, as any GW game player can tell you, bring your own lube.

RE: GW forbids any kind of Fanwork movies

Pariah Press — GMT

Wait, we're not allowed to violate GW's IP whenever we feel like it? But what about the spirit of the game???

RE: GW forbids any kind of Fanwork movies

Grot 6 — GMT

Roll a D6 for it, or call Mail Order for a ruling on that one.

RE: GW forbids any kind of Fanwork movies

Boss Salvage — GMT

Posted By Grot 6 on 07/11/2007 7:02 AM
... call Male Order for a ruling on that one.

- Salvage ... and his soft spot for Ty Finnocociaioado and his chunky glasses

RE: GW forbids any kind of Fanwork movies

Da Boss — GMT

Good luck lads, but barring a change in the law I don't see much hope for ye.
A GW film isn't high on my want list. But I think it's a shame for all the work you put into it to go to waste. A damn shame.

RE: GW forbids any kind of Fanwork movies

Wolfstan — GMT

With due respect, the Damntus guys should just say screw you GW and release the movie via the web. There is tons of stuff that GW fans would love to see, but at the speed that GW takes to release a Codex you would have to live 3 life times for them to get up to speed with the stuff the fans want to see.

RE: GW forbids any kind of Fanwork movies

Asmodai — GMT

Wait.... you didn't get GW's permission in writing before investing so much time and effort?

It's hard to feel much sympathy in that case. GW makes LotR too, but I think someone might get upset if I made an animated version of the Two Towers.

And no, I don't think this ruling means that your yaoi fanfic about Gaunt and Rawne is likely to be threatened.

RE: GW forbids any kind of Fanwork movies

Vero — GMT

When the project started, they contact GW for the OK, it took 2 + years for them to say no.

So technically, you can still release the movie if you blur any GW "IP" like the aquilla, and then sensor any non-common words (relplace Space Marine with Devil Dog?). You can then claim that it is a different sci-fi movie all together.

RE: GW forbids any kind of Fanwork movies

torgoch — GMT

I don't see how the company can make any other decision, given that in English law a copyright must be defended or control is effectively ceded.

RE: GW forbids any kind of Fanwork movies

Da Boss — GMT

Yup. the only thing they could have done was make the decision a lot faster, and save the DAMNATUS crew so much work.

RE: GW forbids any kind of Fanwork movies

Beast — GMT

A shame, as I was looking forward to Damnatus... I hope it pops up on YouTube... Something like that should be seen.

RE: GW forbids any kind of Fanwork movies

Frazzled — GMT

I don't buy it. Whats to stop GW from specifically given permission for the release of the film?

RE: GW forbids any kind of Fanwork movies

General Hobbs — GMT

According to German IP law, as I understand it, then the makers of the film own part of that property.

If I take a picture of your wife naked, then I get access to her as much as you do.

And the makers of the film apparently cannot waive those rights.

So before you complain about GW, you have to realize they are protecting their rights. I suggest writing the German legislators and tell them to change their laws.

RE: GW forbids any kind of Fanwork movies

Frazzled — GMT

Or don't release it in Germany. Release it in China where it can be pirated properly...

Seriously, its a fan film, big deal. Their junk is not going to be copied in Germany. Its going to be copied in Asia and Eastern Europe, and the publication on a fan film will not impact the economic calculus of those companies.

I guess Transformers viewed in Germany either then. Wouldn't want Michael Bay to suddenly have an ownership interest in Porsche and GM.

RE: GW forbids any kind of Fanwork movies

pnweerar — GMT

I think this means it's time to make as many fan movies as possible.

RE: GW forbids any kind of Fanwork movies

General Hobbs — GMT

So I make a movie of your car in Germany. When you sell that car, I can come forward and say, I get X% of that money.

Just an example, not a true example of how IP works, but the principal is the same, I guess.

RE: GW forbids any kind of Fanwork movies

Asmodai — GMT

Posted By General Hobbs on 07/11/2007 12:59 PM

According to German IP law, as I understand it, then the makers of the film own part of that property.

If I take a picture of your wife naked, then I get access to her as much as you do.

And the makers of the film apparently cannot waive those rights.

So before you complain about GW, you have to realize they are protecting their rights. I suggest writing the German legislators and tell them to change their laws.

What § of the BGB is that from? I wouldn't mind reading it for myself.

RE: GW forbids any kind of Fanwork movies

Hordini — GMT

Wait....were you Damnatus guys actually expecting to make money off of this movie, or were you just doing it because it was a cool idea?

If you guys were actually expecting to distribute the film for money, then I will say wholeheartedly that that was a mistake, and would have said the same at the start of the project.

Now, if GW has just banned all not-for-profit fan films....that's yet another lame decision from a company that consistently makes lame decisions.

If you guys were just doing this as a labor of love, I have a lot of respect for that and think it's a really cool idea, and it sucks to get shafted by GW at the last minute.

But honestly, if you guys were expecting to cash in on this thing, that was a very foolish idea.

RE: GW forbids any kind of Fanwork movies

Kotrin — GMT

It's not like we're dealing with blueprints for an atomic bomb, for Khorne's sake. It's a friggin fan-based CGI movie.

Find a web server in a remote pacific island, release the movie, voilà .
The time they manage to close the whole thing - and frankly, I even doubt they can - everyone and his dog will have a copy on his hard drive. e-Mule and others will do the rest.

I don't know how much money GW is willing to spend to worsen even more its already awful reputation, but it can only get ridiculous to a point. And I doubt official and legal would bother much.

RE: GW forbids any kind of Fanwork movies

Delephont — GMT

WH40K is a stunning and colorful creation, so is Middle Earth, and there are countless other examples of great worlds of fluff!!!

The lesson all of these features has shown us, as miniature collectors, wargamers, roleplayers, visionaries all...is that we should create and be creative.....

DAMNATUS, you failed, simply because you based your dream on the dreams of someone else, you stole an idea in which to base your own ideas off....you call in fan made movie, but its I.P theft......its almost like I go to your house, steal your car and drive it to my favorite theme park

At the end of the day, WH40K belongs to GW, enjoy it as they intend you to, but it doesn't give you the right to create anything based on it!!

Create something new that rivals WH40K, that shakes it to its very foundations. Create something new that you can own, and decide on its future.....

RE: GW forbids any kind of Fanwork movies

upliftingprimer — GMT

well it could be considered a violation of the first amendment (freedom of speech) but sadly they are in germany

RE: GW forbids any kind of Fanwork movies

General Hobbs — GMT

Posted By Hordini on 07/11/2007 2:24 PM
Wait....were you Damnatus guys actually expecting to make money off of this movie, or were you just doing it because it was a cool idea?

If you guys were actually expecting to distribute the film for money, then I will say wholeheartedly that that was a mistake, and would have said the same at the start of the project.

Now, if GW has just banned all not-for-profit fan films....that's yet another lame decision from a company that consistently makes lame decisions.

If you guys were just doing this as a labor of love, I have a lot of respect for that and think it's a really cool idea, and it sucks to get shafted by GW at the last minute.

But honestly, if you guys were expecting to cash in on this thing, that was a very foolish idea.

I think the issue is more that under the IP laws for movies made there, they would be entitled to a percentage of any sales for any items featured in the movie. So if there was a space marine in it, then anything having to do with space marines entitles them to a percentage of money from sales etc.

RE: GW forbids any kind of Fanwork movies

Asmodai — GMT

Posted By upliftingprimer on 07/11/2007 3:08 PM
well it could be considered a violation of the first amendment (freedom of speech) but sadly they are in germany

Try making your own rip-off 40K, or Harry Potter or Batman movie and see how far arguing free speech will get you.

RE: GW forbids any kind of Fanwork movies

Ozymandias — GMT

If they made a parody they'd be ok. At least here in the US, parody is protected by Free Speech.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

RE: GW forbids any kind of Fanwork movies

wspatterson — GMT

Isn't the Emperor of a million worlds who sits on the Golden Throne the IP of the Herbert estate?

RE: GW forbids any kind of Fanwork movies

Osbad — GMT

Once again GW bigwigs cheese off their fanbase for no good commercial reason. It wasn't that the German lawyers couldn't agree, but that the "higher ups" were to uptight. Couldn't see the larger benefits of good PR but could only stick their heads up their collective behinds and fear for the "dilution" of their oh-so-precious IP (which is bleeding support faster than a stuck pig, judging by their tumbling turnover figures).

Yet another classic business decision brought to you by the people who gave you rolling 20% price hikes and the nerfing of WD...

So thi sis how they plan to please their "core customers" eh? Fools...

RE: GW forbids any kind of Fanwork movies

bigchris1313 — GMT

I just don't get it. It seems like a film would boost sales. What were those flicks that came out a few years back? Lord of the something or other?

RE: GW forbids any kind of Fanwork movies

hammerofulric — GMT

Petition signed. I've also set up a Yahoo group SAVE DAMNATUS http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/SAVE_DAMNATUS so those who don't speak German have a dedicated forum to discuss, organise, and maybe demonstrate our displeasure at Games Day UK in September.

Anyone up for waving a banner, or handing out flyers?

RE: GW forbids any kind of Fanwork movies

Abadabadoobaddon — GMT

Posted By Da Boss on 07/11/2007 12:11 PM
Yup. the only thing they could have done was make the decision a lot faster, and save the DAMNATUS crew so much work.

But would they really want to save the DAMNATUS guys the work? By waiting until the last minute to pull the plug they maximize the damage. This serves as an example to deter others. They used a similar tactic against Dreamforge. Of course it seems unwise to screw over your fans in the same way as you would a competitor. Maybe they just couldn't be bothered until the release was imminent and it became an issue?

RE: GW forbids any kind of Fanwork movies

Frazzled — GMT

Posted By General Hobbs on 07/11/2007 3:22 PM

Posted By Hordini on 07/11/2007 2:24 PM
Wait....were you Damnatus guys actually expecting to make money off of this movie, or were you just doing it because it was a cool idea?

If you guys were actually expecting to distribute the film for money, then I will say wholeheartedly that that was a mistake, and would have said the same at the start of the project.

Now, if GW has just banned all not-for-profit fan films....that's yet another lame decision from a company that consistently makes lame decisions.

If you guys were just doing this as a labor of love, I have a lot of respect for that and think it's a really cool idea, and it sucks to get shafted by GW at the last minute.

But honestly, if you guys were expecting to cash in on this thing, that was a very foolish idea.

I think the issue is more that under the IP laws for movies made there, they would be entitled to a percentage of any sales for any items featured in the movie. So if there was a space marine in it, then anything having to do with space marines entitles them to a percentage of money from sales etc.

If thats the issue couldn't they just quitclaim any rights to GW?

RE: GW forbids any kind of Fanwork movies

Asmodai — GMT

Posted By jfrazell on 07/12/2007 5:21 AM

Posted By General Hobbs on 07/11/2007 3:22 PM

Posted By Hordini on 07/11/2007 2:24 PM
Wait....were you Damnatus guys actually expecting to make money off of this movie, or were you just doing it because it was a cool idea?

If you guys were actually expecting to distribute the film for money, then I will say wholeheartedly that that was a mistake, and would have said the same at the start of the project.

Now, if GW has just banned all not-for-profit fan films....that's yet another lame decision from a company that consistently makes lame decisions.

If you guys were just doing this as a labor of love, I have a lot of respect for that and think it's a really cool idea, and it sucks to get shafted by GW at the last minute.

But honestly, if you guys were expecting to cash in on this thing, that was a very foolish idea.

I think the issue is more that under the IP laws for movies made there, they would be entitled to a percentage of any sales for any items featured in the movie. So if there was a space marine in it, then anything having to do with space marines entitles them to a percentage of money from sales etc.

If thats the issue couldn't they just quitclaim any rights to GW?

That's not the main issue.

The issue is also that this would negatively impact the value of GW's IP. GW might very well want to sell the rights to a 40K movie, especially with the popular video games and MMO coming out.

If there's already fan-made works out there then instead of getting (for example) $10 million for the rights to the movie, GW might only get $1 million.

By cracking down here, GW preserves the value of the universe they've spent 3 decades building. I don't see them being wrong in this.

RE: GW forbids any kind of Fanwork movies

jeremycobert — GMT

this does not make sense , if the movie is really just a fan movie then anyone involved with the film could easily leak it to a torrent file and the makers would have plausible deny-ability.

it seems like a publicity stunt or they are trying to make money off of it. something seems wrong with this story.

RE: GW forbids any kind of Fanwork movies

Schepp himself — GMT

Maybe they don't want to simply "leak it out". After all the years, some credit have to be given I guess.
But make all this stuff for cash. Really no good idea without having a waterproofed contract with GW beforehand.
I want to see it though.

Greets
Schepp himself

RE: GW forbids any kind of Fanwork movies

Da Boss — GMT

I feel really bad for the DAMNATUS guys, but I can see GW's point of veiw.
Abby, if what you say is true, I'd be so *fudge*ing angry.
That sort of dicking around is what makes big GW so damned unpopular.
Well, that and all the other gak.
I'm willing to give 'em the benifit of the doubt though. (God only knows why)

RE: GW forbids any kind of Fanwork movies

Wolfstan — GMT

Bloody hell I not seen so much self righteous drivel for a long time In all the time I've kept an eye on the Damnatus updates I've never seen any mention of making money. These guys are fans who have liked the fluff enough to make a film.

Yes there is an element of self promotion here, but why not. They produce a good movie and it gets noticed, someone say's 'hay the effects in this are great' or 'the direction of this movie is well done' and this leads to somebody getting a chance to do something in movies. Wind your necks in boys, it ain't nice.

RE: GW forbids any kind of Fanwork movies

Ozymandias — GMT

Damnatus Guys: Just pass the movie to all of your friends and say, "Don't leak this, nudge nudge." If GW is going to be a dick about this, I'm sure there are ways to get your movie released to the fans.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

RE: GW forbids any kind of Fanwork movies

Delephont — GMT

I wouldn't say the comments made so far are self-righteous in the least!!

At the end of the day you gotta swallow it! Everything WH40K belongs to GW, thats the bottom line. I certainly feel for anyone who chances their arm at capitalising from the I.P and gets caught, but thems the bones.

Whether a film would be good advertising or not, its GW decision to make, not ours.

The most logical suggestion to come out is to ommit all references to WH40K and GW. Do that and people can see the film. Now, why haven't the DAMNATUS boys thought / done this already? All this posturing and moaning when there's a simple solution.

IMHO....and this is only MHO.....I imagine the film only works because its heavily based on WH40K, and on its own it can't stand up. As fans we're likely to overlook many a crap element because "Hey, its only a fan film....I couldn't do any better, so, right on chaps" or they really want to cash in on the I.P

Now this really pisses me off, because no one has the right to crap on GW for protecting its investment.

DAMNATUS get off your collective arses and either distribute the film without the WH40K walking stick, or can the whole thing and move on.....but stop wasting our time!

RE: GW forbids any kind of Fanwork movies

Doctor Thunder — GMT

This is a mistake. The Damnatus guys were not trying to make any money. For GW to say no is shocking. As someone who has defended GW in the past, I feel ashamed.

RE: GW forbids any kind of Fanwork movies

Wolfstan — GMT

IMHO....and this is only MHO.....I imagine the film only works because its heavily based on WH40K, and on its own it can't stand up. As fans we're likely to overlook many a crap element because "Hey, its only a fan film....I couldn't do any better, so, right on chaps" or they really want to cash in on the I.P

How on earth can you make that statement, that they've used the 40k universe for it's theme means it will be a dire film!!??!! So a film that is is in German that you would not seen fully is going to be bad because they couldn't come up with their own universe. Not that that they could take the 40k universe and make a film that manages to capture the darkness and grittyness of the fluff.

Bugger me that Dan Adnetts a lucky bloke then being able to use the 40k universe to prop up his bad writting.

All the best to you Damnatus guys, stuff GW and get it leaked.

RE: GW forbids any kind of Fanwork movies

Da Boss — GMT

It doesn't matter if they were doing it to make money or not (I was never under the impression that they were) it's more about GW having to protect their IP aggressively due to UK IP law. If they don't, it can become publicly owned (or at least that is my understanding of it, I may be completely wrong. It would definitely be devalued). And that would kill GW. So don't blame GW, blame our wierd laws about owning ideas.
And don't blame the DAMNATUS guys either. The only thing I see in this that is bad form is how long it took GW let the DAMNATUS guys know their film wasn't gonna go forward. That is really bad. I feel really bad for the guys who obviously put so much effort into this project.

RE: GW forbids any kind of Fanwork movies

Janthkin — GMT

well it could be considered a violation of the first amendment (freedom of speech)

No. No, it couldn't.

Remember, people: the first amendment applies to GOVERNMENT ACTIONS, not private citizens or companies.

RE: GW forbids any kind of Fanwork movies

Janthkin — GMT

Here's some light reading: Moral Rights, in copyright, attach to the creator of a work, and can't be stripped away (or given away), period. The US has no similar concept. It's one of the more interesting differences between US copyright law and EU copyright law.

RE: GW forbids any kind of Fanwork movies

Anung Un Rama — GMT

not, that they didn't try to make money with it....they spend a LOT of their own to get this whole thing going. I know one the guys personally, and he doesn't like to talk about the time, mones and effort he put in this.

btw. he's a teriffic painter

RE: GW forbids any kind of Fanwork movies

Oktavian — GMT

@ Anung Un Rama
Hehe, nice to see a well known face here.
And yes I won´t talk about it, cause you wouldn´t believe... ^^
Hmmm, but maybe we could give the Techpriest a new home at the "Sturmdrache". Whould you like to ask Thomas if this is possible?

Peter

RE: GW forbids any kind of Fanwork movies

Necros — GMT

As a filmmaker too, I really feel bad for the damnatus guys... most people don't realize the immense amount of work it takes to make anything resembling a feature film, even just a short. It would be great if they could get something worked out with GW to at least let it be shown at a games day or something, as long as the movie isn't sold on DVD some day. Worst case though, they have a completed work to put on their resume if they wanna try and do things right the next time

RE: GW forbids any kind of Fanwork movies

Orlanth — GMT

Oktavian, you have my sympathies.

....I wonder if I will soon find any freeware legal to download movies on bittorrent.....

RE: GW forbids any kind of Fanwork movies

Clayman — GMT

Posted By Delephont on 07/12/2007 9:46 AM
I wouldn't say the comments made so far are self-righteous in the least!!

At the end of the day you gotta swallow it! Everything WH40K belongs to GW, thats the bottom line. I certainly feel for anyone who chances their arm at capitalising from the I.P and gets caught, but thems the bones.

Whether a film would be good advertising or not, its GW decision to make, not ours.

The most logical suggestion to come out is to ommit all references to WH40K and GW. Do that and people can see the film. Now, why haven't the DAMNATUS boys thought / done this already? All this posturing and moaning when there's a simple solution.

Now this really pisses me off, because no one has the right to crap on GW for protecting its investment.

DAMNATUS get off your collective arses and either distribute the film without the WH40K walking stick, or can the whole thing and move on.....but stop wasting our time!

I dont know why,but for some reason your statements piss me off when i read them.

I understand your point of view,but hasn't GW themselves 'stolen' things from everywhere to piece their fluff?So by so-called 'defending' GW,you're insinuating that creating -anything- thats not originally by them also.That would mean that all the custom chapters,rules,VDR,fluff for armies,fan artwork,conversions etc are basically not legal,seeing as they are IP infringement.Why you ask?Simple,because GW didnt make them like that in the box and their stamp of approval isnt under each of your bases,artwork and mentioned items.Maybe i just read it wrong,but thats pretty the f'king feeling i get from what you say.
You're telling a whole team of people that worked their asses off,spending time,money and god knows what else to make something true to what they like to just STFU and leave it behind?It seems you havent really been in a situation like that have you?

On the lighter note,I read the different versions of GW 'great scheme' and the protection of their IP for their own movie,but yes.This is probably the moment they should really start reading forums p-r-o-p-e-r-l-y and understand that what they do isnt the best for anyone.
Seeing as Damnatus was trully a non profit fan movie,i fail to understand why GW waited for the last moment to say 'You know what?We won't allow it to come out cause it might hurt our business.'Making this movie releasable would give both the D-team to potentially get noticed in the business,but also open up sources for GW to see how it would look if they worked on it(as one member here posted).Hell,with the right studio to work with,GW would only sell the clearance to use the 40k uni and make profit of it.Dont they realize the potential that is to make a serie on the Horus Heresy or the very start of the imperium? Seems like no.

If Kyoto-sama is right in his predictions,we might actually end up all playing AT-43 or SST...or what ever it is games that will come out.I really hope GW stops shooting itself in the foot.

To Damnatus team,really sorry to learn the ban,I was eager to see it as many of us were.Really sucks for you guys (talking from a fanmovie maker to another one)

RE: GW forbids any kind of Fanwork movies

Orlanth — GMT

Clayman I am 100% behind you. Those here who think we should 'just get over it' with Damnatus are seriously short of common sense. It was a four year old project, yes FOUR YEARS OF WORK, which GW did not object to. The Damnatus team has every reason to be upset. And the fans, well this is a kick in the teeth, the worst insult to the community GW has ever made, worse than banning squats, hiring Pete Haines, not listening over rules and spreading BS about how wonderful they are in White Dwarf.

For GW it is a disaster, they will merely annoy some fans in the UK and US, but in Germany, Switzerland and Austria their name will now be mud, even more so than usual. GW is already failing in its retail on the continent, especially in the French and German speaking countries. This insult will kick GW to death in Germany, where Damnatus is long awaited, known by virtually everyone who plays over there, including the kids, and where the production crew will howl the loadest. A company can afford to be hated if there is no competition, Microsoft I am looking at you, but the games industry is alive and kicking on the continent, they have popular how grown titles as well as Privateer Press stuff to fall back on.

No joke, killing a large companies name in a major market, and lets face it Germany is a BIG market, it normally enough to force resignations on the board. GW isnt competent enough to realise this, so their board are safe, for now. Allowing for the mass redundancies they have just announced and profits slide I am not too sure then then. Treatment of Damnatus will be ammo in favour of anyone who wishes to remove the board for incompetence, and that day is fast approaching I feel.

RE: GW forbids any kind of Fanwork movies

KhaosBob — GMT

Hey Damnatus guys,

Just do like Blizzard did. Anyone whoes played Starcraft will confirme that Blizzard ripped off 40K big time. Just rename your stuff and then when the film comes out anyone who is a true fan will know what everything in the movie is.

RE: GW forbids any kind of Fanwork movies

Agamemnon2 — GMT

Posted By Delephont on 07/12/2007 9:46 AM

The most logical suggestion to come out is to ommit all references to WH40K and GW. Do that and people can see the film. Now, why haven't the DAMNATUS boys thought / done this already? All this posturing and moaning when there's a simple solution.

The solution is simple only in theory. In practice, turning a full-fledged fan film into something that GW will be unable to stop with allegations of plagiarism is anything but simple. The task involved with include, but not be limited to, CGI-erasing any visual IP, reshooting scenes, re-dubbing dialogue, rewriting dialogue, inventing new plotlines in place of plotlines that cannot be used due to IP concerns, etc ad nauseum.

Call me a skeptic, but I don't see them being able or motivated enough to complete all that. Team morale has to be at an all-time low over in their camp, and I'll bet a groat on several people having already abandoned ship. No, it's a safe bet to say that Damnatus is a dead horse.