Posted By migsula on 08/06/2007 10:39 AM
put a question mark to the heading please, so the ones in the same situation with you don't have to open this in high expectations

There are a few posters at Warseer who have the dex atleast.

The idea is that someone will hopefully add a review in the thread. 

Don't get disapponted with me though, save it for those with the new Codex who can't be bothered to share it with us.

Lots of 'I have the Codex too' comments on various threads so I am suprised noone has done a review to tell us what is in it, except for Voodoo Boy'z reply, which only went as far as what to take and what sucks rather than a complete lineout.

I remember when I got hold of the Ogre Kingdom army book a month prerelease (how I wont say) and wrote an in depth review on each and every unit and option. If I had CSM Codex or any other in advance I would share it with you guys, just wishing others would do same.

Twink!

But check it ... Slaanesh lord with claws on tit maggot = the speed lord rides on and on!  6 attaks @ init 6, rerolled ftw

- Salvage, who already misses his demonettes

Hey Hommie,

You need to look at the Tyranid FAQ on the GW website. I think it is the second or third question on the left. Bugs under synapse can't be instant killed by any means what so ever.

Also, your "shell game" idea doesn't fly ether. You have to mark on your army list which squad is in what transport. Dude, you can't have four transports with a command squad in one and three tactical squads in the others and then as they get distroyed choose the one that survies as the one that has the command squad in it. That's crap!

Varies squad sizes with differing weapon options? Eliminated. Now they have to take 10 men to get a heavy weapon, just like loyalist (well, DA and BA) Marines. How is that Chaotic?

Or did it get dropped along with all other deamon stuff...

But with no affect on army design, do the marks / ikons matter all that much anymore?  I play Undivided - which used to mean MoCU on everybody, not taking cult marines from every legion like now (which isn't a bad thing, just a different take on the Undivided philosophy I suppose) - and at this point I'm just treating the marks as replacements for the demon gifts my lord can no longer take.  MoK = mutation, MoN = resilience, MoT & MoS = just more stat boosters too. 

Pity you can't mix and match to make a lord worth something at all

- Salvage

Which goes to show you how many truely awful players must be there.  They can't even see how the old "cheese" has been replaced by new "cheese."  And frankly, the Lash is far more deserving of the cheese label than daemonbombs and such.  I guess it's the new Siren? 

Good god, how did the Lash get through even cursory playtesting? 

It sure is.  Haven't you heard they're "giving the game back to the players?" 

Which is great, because I was really annoyed when Jervis climbed the walls of my building like a cat burglar, broke in and stole it out of my closet.

You must be a young one!

Hommie is short for Home Boy. Nothing negative mint. God, Im showing my age!

Can we get some info on:

1. Special Characters;

2. Psyhic Powers? Are there just generic psyhic powers, or ones that go with the Marks of Chaos?;

3. Do Greater/ Lesser Daemons take a spot on the FOC? Lesser Daemon Stats? and

4. Are CSM Rhinos the same pts costs as the DA's? (35pts I think?)

 Never mind, i have all the answers I need now.

Mat

Purely a game balance mechanic, m8. GW's trying to make vehicles more survivable, methinks.

Not to hijack the thread, I just want to say that I hope they change things so that the glancing hits table is used for penetrating hits, and a glancing hit rolls on it with a negative modifier or something like that. Maybe 5th edition. =/

Chaos is only limited in squad sizes if you refuse to look at the codex with anything other than tunnel vision on creating the same sort of ultra-efficient troop squads each with a heavy weapon that were the name of the game in 3rd edition.

That way of playing is dead.  Thank god.  But have no fear. . .  having read through the new codex there are plenty of new things that can be min-maxed and exploited.

Really, how much variability is lost?

It's not like the competitive Chaos lists were all that variable -- hell, I haven't put together a Chaos army list in 2 years, and I can still tell you off the top of my head that a 6 man las/plas MoCU squad is 115 points and an infiltrating 6 man plas/plas MoCU squad is 128 points because for power armor in troop squads, all of the options boil down to a small handful of truly useful choices.

The current/soon-to-be-old Chaos codex is replete with useless* choices.

In a competitive list, how often do you see:

The much vaunted Chaos armory ends up degenerating into "dial-a-lord" (see www.dakkadakka.com/Forums/tabid/56/view/topic/forumid/18/postid/77012/Default.aspx for a handy list of the best MEQ-slaying Lord at any point value you desire; the sheer number of options devolve into a fairly direct choice of how many points you want to spend giving you a fairly linearly amount of killing power); even still, most of the tactical options for Lords are retained (note most; Daemonic Speed is gone, but you can still choose flight and can take power armored, terminator armored, or statured lords -- the bulk of the rest of options are simply taking the base beast and making it choppier).

So what's the real loss in variability?  Daemons?  Even still it's rumored Chaos will be getting a daemon book next year.

If I may be allowed to ignore daemons based on said rumor, there's really not much of a change in variability of the codex (at least, for competitive lists) -- "dialing" individual models is gone, sure, but if anything there are more viable non-daemon unit configurations on the table.  The list is weaker overall, but that's to be expected since it's going in to the rewrite as the most powerful list on the table.

But maybe it's just me.  Sure when I first started Chaos the list seemed infinitely variable, but as I got better with it, it just boiled down to a small handful of viable choices (and "dialing", which to my mind isn't meaningful variability).

*shrug*

* Either useless or so stratified as to be pointless -- e.g., the Keeper of Secrets is not a bad unit in and of itself, it's just inferior to a Bloodthirster or a Lord of Change, and as such is rarely seen.

Well, I'm a competitive player, so I'm not really looking at it from the fluffbunny perspective.  It may suck for them, I really don't care -- I'm not trying to be flippant, it's just simply not the perspective I play from.

The change to power Chaos players, though, isn't one of variability, it's power level.  And that's to be expected -- Chaos is the strongest list now.  Anyone expecting it to not get toned down hasn't been paying attention.

I'm certainly not trying to claim the change is "good", just that I don't think loss of variability in competitive lists is really a valid complaint, as there really wasn't much there to start with, and with the daemon codex it's entirely possible competitive Chaos lists will be even more varied.  Doesn't make Chaos less nerfed, doesn't make the new codex "good" or "bad", just that the changes to variability of competitive lists isn't a big deal -- in my opinion.

Mat :S

Oh wait, I found it (p.86). Never mind.

-I've got 20 GK termies that are looking awful nervous. A bit of work with a dremel tool, and nice red/brass paint job, a few weapon swaps, and a big Khorne Icon could really make them look spiffy.

-Definitely a greater demon, as I have a lot of bits and putty that want a new home.

-A little herd of spawn, because spawn are fun to make.

-and those 20 discs of tzeench are going to go under a squad of CSM with a Tzeentch icon, or maybe some 1ks. Maybe a second icon that says "no, we don't fly, it's just for looks".

Not really worried about competitive list building. My shop is planning on doing a lot of Apocalypse battles for the next year.

I would LOVE to talk to Jervis about this crap at length.  I've never been so thoroughly mystified by anything in my life.

Heh. Please don't confuse me having fun digging through old lead and drinking too much caffiene, with actually liking this codex. I'm not going to say it's all bad, but I will easily admit that it's not what i expected, and I'm not thrilled with it. I miss nurglings, different types of demons and greater demons, and a lot of the flavorful options chaos used to have. They encouraged me to convert models. I'm not making new possessed, where the mutations don't mean anything other than giving you the ability to roll a dice and note down a change on your army list.

From a publishing end, I hate the layout and look of the codex. It has some neat stuff in it that will make me take a different army, but I can a) afford to redo my chaos b) have a use for an army I don't play much. (6 filled display cases, and need to shop for number 7) and c) get it at a discount. Others don't have that luxury. Oh, and I can write off my miniature purchases on my taxes.

I just plan on ignoring what I don't like, and building an army that i do. And laughing at my son who worked so hard to paint up that 2000 pt 'demon bomb', that had only 12 models that weren't demons.

I think the feeling that this Codex most fills me with is :

"Hell, I could have done a lot better than this! What were they thinking?"

And, to be fair, I'd think that Apocalypse means that every store owner in the biz has to like GW right now.

Oh yeah. I expect to sell a boatload of stuff, especially with all the special deals going on. I'm also pumped to start playing a lot of games. I think I'm happiest about Apocalypse in that it will get other people excited about super huge games.

..and about 8 of us are doing new chaos armies, with all the stuff we do like. The overall feeling is that yes, it's a lot of changes, and no one can run a demon bomb, or 4 heavy supports, or several other things that we used to see all the time. But there are a ton of units that just look like a lot of fun to paint and build, and very effective in the game. Plague marines are just flat out tough, and hard as hell to get rid of. T5, feel no pain, bolters, 2 combat weapons, and if you charge them, blight grenades negate your extra attack. 1k sons are also going to be tough to move, with a 4+ invulnerable, and a champion with a force weapon, that you can't single out. The sorcerer has two attacks, 3 with offhand, and can take a power that lets him reroll to hits and to wounds. The squad is the rock, he's the knife.

My favorite? Getting to bring out all my old marines on discs of Tzeentch, and proclaiming them marines on bikes with the mark of Tzeench. 5+ invulnerable when they aren't turbo boosting, 2+ when they are.

We are running a ruinous powers campaign starting tomorrow. Players can use any build they want, and count as playing for whatever power is most represented in your army. You can switch sides anytime you want by adjusting your army. No score is kept for the players, just for the 5 flavors of chaos. If your army is more Khorne than anything else, your win goes to Khorne, etc. 5 for a win, 3 for a loss, 2 for a tie (because ties suck, someone wasn't trying hard enough!)

You've got to remember a couple of things. I've had my stores for 20 years, run tons of leagues like this, and seen hundreds of games played in this similar sort of scoring system. Trust me when I say the rule is there for a reason. For every hardfought tie that occurs in a well thought out game, we used to get 20 ties that occurred between newers players that "don't want to assault because I might lose", "oops, store closing, guess its a tie", etc etc etc. This league isn't about working hard for a tie, it's about chaos throwing their forces at each other in mutual destruction, and seeing who has a models standing at the end. Score is kept for the powers, not the player. You play Khorne 3 times, lose, and Khorne is at the bottom? Hell, drop that loser and throw some nurgle icons in your army. GO Go Papa Nurgle.

This isn't a well run, carefully scored tounament, with subtle rules. It's an exuse for a couple of dozen guys to just throw new units on the table, test them out, have fun, and not care about the win. My first army today is going to be berzerkers, khorne bikers, a lord with demon weapon on juggernaught, and a dread. Tomorrow on running thousand sons, and two princes with the lash.

I have pulled out a bunch of Cadians and started painting them. Its amazing what one finds when one moves.

Flying DP, MOK

Lord, Jugger, Daemonsword of khorne

10 Terminators, champ with pf, 2x reaper

10 Terminators, champ with pf, 2x reaper

5 berzerkers with champ

5 berzerkers with champ

6 bikers, MOK, champ with pf

I won th day, but with only 4 bikes, and a terminator champ left on the board. Highlight of the match was my Lord with 1 wound left charging a rhino so that I could get the extra 6" of movement and set up a turn 6 charge. Rolled a 1 on the daemon weapon and killed myself.

Who loses CC to a rhino and dies?????)

Was great fun.

With a juggernaut your up to killing 5.3 marines in a single assault with a single unit on average rolls.  Of course your not going to be well protected with a juggernaut but hey thats a trade off.

T4 (5)

The mark of nurgle is included in the profile but they are still base toughness 4.

Nonsense!  What true devotee of the Blood God wouldn't want a weapon which has a nearly 1 in 3 chance each round of making the bearer do absolutely nothing (except wound himself)?  This rule is fun for everyone because it is chaotic!!!  Yay!

Besides, Khorne Lords just aren't as spritely as the younger berserkers.  They can't just flip out all the time.  Hacking enemies apart is hard work!  Sometimes they have to take a break and just stab themselves for a bit.

5 Noise Marines (1 Blastmaster)

5 Noise Marines (1 Blastmaster)

5 Noise Marines (1 Blastmaster)

5 Noise Marines (1 Blastmaster)

10 Noise Marines (Champion with Fist, 9 Sonic Blasters)

10 Noise Marines (Champion with Fist, 9 Sonic Blasters)

2 Defilers

I think that’s about right. My buddy was playing something along the lines of(not 100% sure):

Demon Prince (MoN, Wings, Rot)

Chaos Sorcerer (MoN, Winds of Chaos, maybe Term Armor)

Hand full of Chaos Termies(A few Lightning Claws)

Chaos Space Marines (Icon of Nurgle, Champ with a Fist and Melta Guns in a Rhino)

Chaos Space Marines (Icon of Nurgle, Champ with a Fist and Melta Guns in a Rhino)

Plague Marines (Champ with a Fist in a Rhino)

Plague Marines (Champ with a Fist in a Rhino)

Once again don’t have an exact list on what we had, we made the lists on what we have and thought would work/be fun. We play to have fun so don’t be too hard on the lists or tactics

At the very beginning Lash proved to the both of us how unbelievably destructive it is going to be. Lashing squads into lines so you only have to fight what you want is painful. With all the extra distance a mounted lord can cover, it was easy to pull the range I needed to get into combat. I removed his sorcerer on the first turn. Also destroyed 3 of the 4 Rhinos and stunned the last one.  The Plague Marines got torn apart after that by the Defilers.

He spent his first turn recovering from that onslaught and I could already tell he was thinking of throwing in the towel. He did fairly little in his turn, moved what he could into cover, combat went to my Lord who killed more Termies.

Next turn was more of the same, I still wanted to see what I could do with Lash so I bunched a squad of CSMs together and nailed it with a Defiler and Blastmaster. You can guess from there. Then I decided that I wasn’t gonna ruin my buddies fun, tossed my Sorcerer into the fray, lost my Lord, and let his Demon Prince get close.

The game was a pretty slaughter from there. His Demon Prince wreaked havoc once it got close enough, killed both Defilers, and a handful of squads(also made 5 5+ invuls in a row lucky bastard). Game ended up being a draw. However we both agreed that had I simply backed up and fired each turn, I could have won without losing a model.

I can’t say I am really happy with this codex. It really opens the door for power lists. Takes away all the customization and fun of making a Chaos list. Also what does a former noise marine player do with the 6 extra blastmasters he has?

The slannesh fire support squads look pretty decent. My experience with combat squads says fivers are pretty survivable if supported properly.