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		<title><![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "4th Edition D&D"]]></title>
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				<title>4th Edition D&amp;D</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ So it's not so much mini news, but it is gaming news.&nbsp; WotC announced that a new edition of Dungeons and Dragons is being released in May-<br />  <br />  <a target=_blank href="http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/welcome">www.wizards.com/default.asp</a><br />  <br />  I don't know what I think about it yet.&nbsp; The current rules are pretty solid.&nbsp; Hell, 3.5 was pretty unnecessary.&nbsp; But we'll see.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Sun, 19 Aug 2007 12:16:58]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ The Crawling Chaos]]></author>
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				<title>RE: 4th Edition D&amp;amp;D</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ It seems to be heading down a computer game/streamlined route.<br>But since it's just a storytelling tool anyway I don't think system matters. It's the setting material that's important in an <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(345);'>RPG</span>.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Sun, 19 Aug 2007 12:20:52]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Da Boss]]></author>
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				<title>RE: 4th Edition D&amp;D</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <p>&nbsp;</p>  <p>There are numerous balancing issues that need to be reworked. Clerics are just way too powerful in the game as is. Fighters become useless, and have very few options. Run up, swing, swing, oh look a critical. Wizards have few spells and get little play early on, then zap zap zap everything gets fried.</p>  <p>What I'm hoping is they do not go to the awful Star Wars Saga rules. </p>]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Sun, 19 Aug 2007 12:26:52]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Green Angel]]></author>
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				<title>RE: 4th Edition D&amp;amp;D</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ I'm glad I don't suckle at Wizards of the Cost's fetid teat anymore.  My bank account thanks me.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Sun, 19 Aug 2007 12:45:43]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Jester]]></author>
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				<title>RE: 4th Edition D&amp;amp;D</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ My D&D group may not even move to 4th. If we do, I've at least got a few months to sell my books off on ebay. <br><br>Shmucks. ]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Sun, 19 Aug 2007 13:28:36]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ syr8766]]></author>
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				<title>RE: 4th Edition D&amp;amp;D</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ I see no big reason to change.<br>Clerics are silly, as are a lot of other things, but it's really easy to modify them to make them a bit less mental. Take away heavy armour proficiency for example, and clerics are a lot less scary.<br>Still, I'll be interested in what they bring out with the new edition.<br>I'm not loyal to any one game system though, I could easily bugger off to Traveller or In Nomine.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Sun, 19 Aug 2007 13:33:34]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Da Boss]]></author>
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				<title>RE: 4th Edition D&amp;amp;D</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Mmmm, lots of cheap 3rd edition books on ebay...]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Sun, 19 Aug 2007 13:47:39]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Kid_Kyoto]]></author>
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				<title>RE: 4th Edition D&amp;amp;D</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ I'm always interested in what WotC does.<br><br>I thought 3rd Ed was one of the most impressive improvements to a gaming system I've ever seen.<br><br>I'm not sure I get what they're doing with 4th.  Trying to have some online aids to speed up gaming mechanics?<br><br>I'll have to see it in action.  I tend to think that as far as core mechanics go, there's really nothing to improve with <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(341);'>d20</span>.  It's as much as you need to do everything with nothing extra.  It's great.  It's all content on top of that.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Sun, 19 Aug 2007 14:35:03]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Phryxis]]></author>
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				<title>RE: 4th Edition D&amp;amp;D</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ I've heard that races are going to play a bigger part in the game, with racial bonuses as you advance, not just as you generate your character.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Sun, 19 Aug 2007 15:09:36]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Pariah Press]]></author>
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				<title>RE: 4th Edition D&amp;D</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <p>I got this email from my friend in the industry. I hope it is the same on the wotc website. Also, yes there using the new star wars sage rules, Which is a good thing.</p>  <p ><span ><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span >Wizards of the Coast is announcing at GenCon today that it will release the 4th Edition of its category-leading <i><span >Dungeons and Dragon</span></i> roleplaying game in 2008, the first full new edition in eight years.&nbsp; The three core books will be released next summer on a monthly schedule:&nbsp; <i><span >Player's Handbook</span></i> in May, <i><span >Monster Manual</span></i> in June, and <i><span >Dungeon Master's Guide</span></i> in July.&nbsp; Pricing and page counts of the new products will be consistent with current packaging.&nbsp; Graphics have been updated, art will be used on the covers, and interior design has been opened up to make the books less intimidating to new players.&nbsp; </span></font></span></p>  <span ><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span >  <p  ><span ><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span >Lead-in products, <i><span >Wizards Presents:&nbsp; Classes and Races</span></i> and <i><span >Wizards Presents:&nbsp; Worlds and Monsters</span></i>, will be released in December.&nbsp; An April release, <i><span >Keep of the Shadowfell</span></i>, will include a set of quickstart rules for 4E.&nbsp; </span></font></span></p>  <p  ><span ><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span >&nbsp;</span></font></span></p>  <p  ><span ><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span >While there are changes in play (such as incorporating &quot;epic-level play,&quot; with 30 levels instead of 20), they are described as &quot;evolutionary&quot; rather than &quot;revolutionary.&quot;&nbsp; Other changes include new power sources, changes in resource management, and new encounter design, and more clearly defined monster roles.&nbsp; Changes will speed play, make the game easier to learn, and make <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(344);'>DM</span>-ing easier.&nbsp; Concepts for <i><span >4th Edition</span></i> gameplay were tested in the new <i><span >Star Wars <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(345);'>RPG</span></span></i>, and the <i><span >Book of 9 Swords</span></i>.&nbsp; </span></font></span></p>  <p  ><span ><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span >&nbsp;</span></font></span></p>  <p  ><span ><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span >What the company does describe as revolutionary is the method of product delivery, which will incorporate online play for the first time. WotC is incorporating online components into the game through a new Website, DnDInsider.com. &nbsp;Each paper product will include codes to unlock digital versions on the site for a &quot;nominal&quot; activation fee.&nbsp; &nbsp;Players will also be able to use DnDInsider tools and access regular new content similar to the material that was previously released in <i><span >Dragon</span></i> and <i><span >Dungeon</span></i> magazines (see &quot;<a target=_blank href="http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/10496.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Interview with Liz Schuh</a>&quot <img src="/s/i/a/6d3c0a908a3861135dfaebde91c0ecf6.gif" border="0">  for a monthly fee (as yet undetermined) greater than the old subscription price, but less than a MMORPG subscription.&nbsp; Magazine-style content will be added to the site three times a week and compiled into digital &quot;issues&quot; monthly.&nbsp; </span></font></span></p>  <p  ><span ><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span ></span></font></span></p>  <span ><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span >  <p  ><span ><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span >Gameplay features on the Web will include a digital D&amp;D game table, and voice chat and text messaging, to allow online players to communicate with each other.&nbsp; The online play is designed to &quot;supplement, not replace&quot; meatspace play.&nbsp; </span></font></span></p>  <p  ><span ><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span >&nbsp;</span></font></span></p>  <p  ><span ><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span >The Open Gaming License will continue as it has in the past, allowing the use of the rules in other publishers' games. </span></font></span></p>  <p  ><span ><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span >&nbsp;</span></font></span></p>  <p  ><span ><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span >Work on the new edition began in 2005, with the major work all accomplished in the last year.&nbsp; </span></font></span></p>  <p  ><span ><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span >&nbsp;</span></font></span></p>  <p  ><span ><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span >D&amp;D products released between now and the launch of 4th Edition will fall into three groups.&nbsp; Edition-proof products (which are mostly story) will not include mechanics that are edition-specific.&nbsp; Some products will be &quot;enhanced&quot; to 4th Edition mechanics after release through DnDInsider, and a couple of series will end as 3.5 products.&nbsp; </span></font></span></p>  <p  ><span ><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span >&nbsp;</span></font></span></p>  <p  ><span ><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span >The setting for the core books are campaign neutral.&nbsp; Forgotten Realms will be the first campaign setting to be updated (in August 2008).&nbsp; Other campaign settings will be updated at a rate of one per year.&nbsp; &nbsp;</span></font></span></p>  <p  ><span ><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span >&nbsp;</span></font></span></p>  <p  ><span ><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span >Marketing support will initially focus on migrating the existing player base, and then move to an acquisition strategy to re-activate lapsed players and acquire new ones. </span></font></span><span >Midnight</span><span > launch parties will be used to kick off sales of the first new release in May.&nbsp;</span></p>  </span></font></span></span></font></span>]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Sun, 19 Aug 2007 15:09:42]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ gpoint]]></author>
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				<title>RE: 4th Edition D&amp;D</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote class="uncited"><div>Posted By Da Boss  on  08/19/2007 5:20 <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(634);'>PM</span><br />  It seems to be heading down a computer game/streamlined route.<br />  But since it's just a storytelling tool anyway I don't think system matters. It's the setting material that's important in an <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(345);'>RPG</span>.</div></blockquote>  I couldnt agree more.<br />  <br />  Thats why 2nd edition is the best.<br />  <br />  It has the most (read: the best array of material) for the system.<br />  <br />  Darksun, Planescape, etc, the list goes on.<br />  <br />  When you consider the old favorite of the Greyhawk setting, there is no substitute for 2nd edition source material.<br />  <br />  Risen from the ashes, Menzoberranzan...they just dont make setting ina box like that anymore.<br />  <br />  Now its all opensourced stuff that pollutes the market. Diversity is good, but too much can make a person (or game) drown.<br />  <br />  4th edition is completly uneccessary.<br />]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Sun, 19 Aug 2007 15:57:46]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Hellfury]]></author>
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				<title>RE: 4th Edition D&amp;amp;D</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ I was pessimistic about the whole affair until I read the bit on classes, and the implication that stats such as Constition might affect your ability to weild heavy weapons like hammers which take a lot of endurance. Adding more personality to weapons sounds exciting. They've got me listening, at least.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Sun, 19 Aug 2007 16:05:32]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Caern]]></author>
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				<title>RE: 4th Edition D&amp;amp;D</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <div   >Thats why 2nd edition is the best.</div  ><br />  <br />  I don't think it works that way.<br />  <br />  I agree with you, the Greyhawk stuff was great.&nbsp; <a target=_blank href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_the_Ashes_(Dungeons_&amp;_Dragons)">From the Ashes</a> was one of my favorite source books of all time. But the thing is, it's source. It doesn't REALLY matter what edition you're using.<br />  <br />  At the time, I had great fun with 2nd Ed. no question. That was the heydey of my <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(326);'>DnD</span> playing, actually. But the rules got in the way alot, they were clumsy, arcane, and inflexible, at least as compared to 3e.<br />  <br />  So, as far as fun, as far as sourcebooks that really hit home for you, maybe 2nd ed was a better time. I'd wager that had more to do with where you were at in your life, and less to do with the rules themselves. I think if we'd had 3rd edition rules back then, we'd have spent less time arguing, less time trying to figure out how to fudge rules for what we wanted to do, and more time actually playing.<br />  <br />  <div   >Now its all opensourced stuff that pollutes the market.</div  ><br />  <br />  Meh, I dunno. I don't think it pollutes the market. You buy it or you don't, it's not like it gets nearby books all laden with cancer causing chemicals or something.<br />  <br />  An argument could be made that it's taking small independants and preventing them from coming up with something new and fresh, because it's easier and safer to piggyback off of the <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(341);'>d20</span> License.<br />  <br />  I think that's probably dead wrong, though, because it could also be said that <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(341);'>d20</span> gives small guys the leg up to get purchases right away. I think that point hits home particularly strongly here at Dakka, because Privateer Press got its start doing <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(341);'>d20</span> license stuff. The first product I ever saw of theirs, <a target=_blank href="http://www.amazon.com/Monsternomicon-Privateer-Press-Viktor-Pendrake/dp/0970697031/ref=pd_bbs_sr_10/104-6548689-6117565?ie=UTF8&amp;s=books&amp;qid=1187585258&amp;sr=8-10">Monsternomicon</a> is one of my favorites of all time. They started out with the Iron Kingdoms as a <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(326);'>DnD</span> world, and produced some really neat books for it. The miniatures stuff was almost an afterthought. If not for the <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(341);'>d20</span> OGL, they might never have even started out.<br />  <br />  <div   >4th edition is completly uneccessary.</div  ><br />  <br />  I agree that there's no need for 4th Ed., but there are lots of reasons. The fact is, 3e has gone as far as it can go. It will always be out there for people to play if people are familliar and don't care to update. But WotC has a ton of production power, and they've turned out all the books possible. I mean, they were turning out 120 page hardcovers on how to run adventures in cold weather, another in hot weather, another in ankle deep water, another when the <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(331);'>PCs</span> haven't kept in touch with their mom as much as they should. It's not that 3e needed fixing (which I think 2e fully did), it's just that the community needs some new outlooks on things. Mix things up. Make race matter more. Make stats effect thigns differently. Shake things up and change how people think.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Sun, 19 Aug 2007 16:49:44]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Phryxis]]></author>
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				<title>RE: 4th Edition D&amp;amp;D</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(341);'>d20</span> made Iron Kingdoms possible and accessible, though there are possibly things<br>about it that limit the gameplay.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Sun, 19 Aug 2007 16:51:25]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ malfred]]></author>
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				<title>RE: 4th Edition D&amp;amp;D</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ I don't really feel that a 4th ed is necessary, the game works if you limit the number of source books you pull from.  Infact thats it current biggest downfall.  Too much other information that just doesn't work with what was already published.  I think of each new D&D addition as a push of the reset button.  Fortunatly I don't feel the need as of right now to upgrade.  I don't get to roll play nearly enough to justify the purchase.<br><br>Its a little bit like <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(3);'>40K</span> in that respect.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Sun, 19 Aug 2007 17:04:09]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Jayden63]]></author>
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				<title>RE: 4th Edition D&amp;D</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote class="uncited"><div>Posted By Hellfury  on  08/19/2007 8:57 <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(634);'>PM</span><br />  When you consider the old favorite of the Greyhawk setting, there is no substitute for 2nd edition source material.<br />  </div></blockquote>  &nbsp; Yes there is: 1st edition source material.&nbsp; <br />  <br />  &nbsp; I gotta tell you, streamlined game mechanics and improved layout sound very tasty to me.&nbsp; I've been running my wife and two small kids on 3.0 for a year or so now, and the slightest delay in a <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(524);'>GM</span> ruling while I look something up can be well-nigh catastrophic!<br />]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Sun, 19 Aug 2007 17:09:39]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Pariah Press]]></author>
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				<title>RE: 4th Edition D&amp;D</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote class="uncited"><div>Posted By Pariah Press  on  08/19/2007 10:09 <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(634);'>PM</span><br />  <blockquote class="uncited"><div>Posted By Hellfury  on  08/19/2007 8:57 <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(634);'>PM</span><br />  When you consider the old favorite of the Greyhawk setting, there is no substitute for 2nd edition source material.<br />  </div></blockquote>  &nbsp; Yes there is: 1st edition source material.&nbsp; <br />  </div></blockquote>  <br />  Not a chance. 2nd ed gave Greyhawk more than it ever previously saw, with the exception of Temple of Elemental Evil (hallowed be thy name).<br />  <br />  Greyhwak: City of Splendors<br />  Risen from the Ashes<br />  Castle Xagyg<br />  The scarlet brotherhood<br />  The vecna serial<br />  Iuz the Evil<br />  Rod of seven parts.<br />  <br />  1st ed was the base, 2nd ed extrapolated on and made it an intelligent, living, breathing beast.<br />  <br />  I really dont care what rules or edition the game is in. Great rules are great, but this is roleplaying afterall, officiated by an arbiter who oversees everything that isnt you or your group.<br />  <br />  The source material is key. Thats what needs to be made (more source material detailing settings) not another rule set.<br />  <br />  Its not to say that the game couldnt be better (as Phryxis said, 2nd ed did need some help) but you can play rock paper scissors and make greyhawk work.<br />  <br />  The <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(344);'>dm</span> just decides if a troll happens to cut off your roshambo hand while your about to win.... *evil laugh*<br />  <br />  It doesnt take a great mind to make great rules. It takes a great mind to create an immersive setting. This is where the money should be invested, not rehashing rules.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Sun, 19 Aug 2007 19:10:57]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Hellfury]]></author>
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				<title>RE: 4th Edition D&amp;D</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote class="uncited"><div>Posted By Hellfury  on  08/20/2007 12:10 <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(682);'>AM</span><br />  &nbsp;Temple of Elemental Evil.<br />  </div></blockquote>  &nbsp; That's all I need, my friend.&nbsp; That's all I need.<br />]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Sun, 19 Aug 2007 20:01:20]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Pariah Press]]></author>
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				<title>RE: 4th Edition D&amp;D</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote class="uncited"><div>Posted By Green Angel  on  08/19/2007 5:26 <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(634);'>PM</span><br />  <p>&nbsp;</p>  <p>There are numerous balancing issues that need to be reworked. Clerics are just way too powerful in the game as is. Fighters become useless, and have very few options. Run up, swing, swing, oh look a critical. Wizards have few spells and get little play early on, then zap zap zap everything gets fried.</p>  <p>What I'm hoping is they do not go to the awful Star Wars Saga rules. </p>  </div></blockquote>  <br />  Gosh!&nbsp; I remember that was the same with 1st edition AD&amp;D (and &quot;Expert&quot; as well - remember that?) back when I was a mere stripling!&nbsp; I lost touch with D&amp;D &amp; <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(345);'>RPGs</span> in general in the '90's and the whole <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(341);'>d20</span> thing just passed me by.&nbsp; I'm glad to see that I didn't miss much! <img src='http://www.dakkadakka.com/DesktopModules/NTForums/images/emoticons/biggrin.gif'>]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Sun, 19 Aug 2007 22:07:56]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Osbad]]></author>
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				<title>RE: 4th Edition D&amp;D</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote class="uncited"><div>Posted By gpoint  on  08/19/2007 8:09 <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(634);'>PM</span><br />  <span ><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span >  <p  ><span ><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span >Each paper product will include codes to unlock digital versions on the site for a &quot;nominal&quot; activation fee.&nbsp; &nbsp;Players will also be able to use DnDInsider tools and access regular new content similar to the material that was previously released in <i><span >Dragon</span></i> and <i><span >Dungeon</span></i> magazines (see &quot;<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/10496.html">Interview with Liz Schuh</a>&quot; <img src="/s/i/a/6d3c0a908a3861135dfaebde91c0ecf6.gif" border="0">  for a monthly fee (as yet undetermined) greater than the old subscription price, but less than a MMORPG subscription. <br />  </span></font></span></p>  <span ><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span  /></font></span></span></font></span></div></blockquote>  <br />  Anyone else bothered by this?]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Sun, 19 Aug 2007 23:09:33]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Master_Forcide]]></author>
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				<title>RE: 4th Edition D&amp;D</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote class="uncited"><div>Posted By Green Angel  on  08/19/2007 5:26 <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(634);'>PM</span><br />  <p>&nbsp;</p>  <p>There are numerous balancing issues that need to be reworked. Clerics are just way too powerful in the game as is. Fighters become useless, and have very few options. Run up, swing, swing, oh look a critical. Wizards have few spells and get little play early on, then zap zap zap everything gets fried.</p>  </div></blockquote>  <br />  I've never played 3rd edition but I played AD&amp;D a lot, this seem to be how it's supposed to be, not a bug in the 3rd edition.<br />  <br />  Criticals for Fighters eh?  well they sound more interesting than they used to be.  <img src="/s/i/a/6d3c0a908a3861135dfaebde91c0ecf6.gif" border="0">  Does the Thief/Bard class still top out at around 9th level?]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Sun, 19 Aug 2007 23:49:01]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ George Spiggott]]></author>
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				<title>RE: 4th Edition D&amp;D</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote class="uncited"><div>Posted By Master_Forcide on 08/20/2007 4:09 <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(682);'>AM</span><br />  <blockquote class="uncited"><div>Posted By gpoint on 08/19/2007 8:09 <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(634);'>PM</span><br />  <span ><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span >  <p  ><span ><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span >Each paper product will include codes to unlock digital versions on the site for a &quot;nominal&quot; activation fee.&nbsp; &nbsp;Players will also be able to use DnDInsider tools and access regular new content similar to the material that was previously released in <i><span >Dragon</span></i> and <i><span >Dungeon</span></i> magazines (see &quot;<a target="_blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/10496.html">Interview with Liz Schuh</a>&quot; <img src="/s/i/a/6d3c0a908a3861135dfaebde91c0ecf6.gif" border="0">  for a monthly fee (as yet undetermined) greater than the old subscription price, but less than a MMORPG subscription. <br />  </span></font></span></p>  <span ><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span ></span></font></span></span></font></span></div></blockquote>  <br />  Anyone else bothered by this?</div></blockquote>  <p>Not in the slightest. It's not mandatory, it's a sexy extra option. <br />  <br />  My every-other-Sunday group full of well-employed adults is drooling. We'll still continue meeting in meatspace, but we're planning to use laptops so we can still use the online tools. Think about having a map on which each player can actually only see what their character can see. In differing light conditions the humans and nonhumans actually see more or less of the map, and the <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(344);'>DM</span> doesn't have to say &quot;everyone else close your eyes&quot; while he shows the mage who case See Invisible where the bad guy is. And the scout who peeked around the corner down the hall is actually the only one who gets to see down there, as opposed to the <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(344);'>DM</span> just drawing it for everyone out in the open.<br />  <br />  This is going to be sweet.</p>]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Sun, 19 Aug 2007 23:52:44]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Mannahnin]]></author>
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				<title>RE: 4th Edition D&amp;amp;D</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ They're stripping out 3rd edition content now.  They used to have art from all the 3rd ed books on line and now there's just 1 measly little book up.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Mon, 20 Aug 2007 00:00:24]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Kid_Kyoto]]></author>
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				<title>RE: 4th Edition D&amp;amp;D</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Are there any plans to bring back Darksun? that was far and away my favorite setting.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Mon, 20 Aug 2007 00:54:51]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Reecius]]></author>
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				<title>RE: 4th Edition D&amp;amp;D</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ I haven't heard of any, but the 3rd ed rules are easily robust enough (and psionics much better developed) to handle the campaign setting.  The one thing the <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(344);'>DM</span> might need to do is create a prestige class for the Defiler to represent its faster caster progression.  ]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Mon, 20 Aug 2007 01:13:24]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Mannahnin]]></author>
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				<title>RE: 4th Edition D&amp;amp;D</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ I remember the old Darksun CRPG. That was fun.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Mon, 20 Aug 2007 02:16:41]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ malfred]]></author>
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				<title>RE: 4th Edition D&amp;amp;D</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ i still love 2nd edition with those option books they made. and god did we hate darksun! a desert world with wooden weapons in abundance..?....where do all these trees come from?? ya know eventually all those 'dead trees' wouldve been used up...i think  we tried playing it 3-4 times then gave up on it..and the books were hoorible! but anyway 2nd edition was soo cool and i remember late 90's there was a greyhawk resurgance, people looking for greyhawk stuff and finding them at crazy igor's, online and at I-CON. the slavers series was the best bunch of modules to play.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Mon, 20 Aug 2007 07:56:55]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ btprelate]]></author>
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				<title>RE: 4th Edition D&amp;amp;D</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <div   >where do all these trees come from?? </div  ><br><br>they had trees! just not a lot of them. The little crazy canibal halfling guys lived in a giant forest. <br><br>I can't believe i remember that.<br><br>But yeah, it was different, i liked it myself although i could see how some people wouldn't. Our group played alot of campaigns in that setting. It was always so cool when someone actually got a steel sword or weapon. Plus your character was so much more bad ass.<br><br>Different strokes I guess. ]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Mon, 20 Aug 2007 08:41:14]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Reecius]]></author>
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				<title>RE: 4th Edition D&amp;amp;D</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ When we played Darksun most stuff was made out of rock and bone.  Not so much wood.  I loved that setting.  There have been a few Dragon articles and things, but a new campaign setting book would be really cool even if they don't continue to support it with random supplements.<br><br>I like that they mentioned the Book of the Nine Swords as essentially playtesting a mechanic for 4th edition.  It's my favorite supplement to 3.5, and it goes a long way to giving warriors as many options and abilities as spellcasters.  <br><br>The subscription for online content just sounds like WotC is trying to get monthly subscription fees from people to try and get a piece of the MMORPG action.  I don't know if I game consistently enough to make that worthwhile.  <br><br>And what is meatspace?  It sounds like either what you look for in the fridge when you get home from the grocery store or like an elemental plane of flesh or something.  Slaanesh's personal part of the warp could be meatspace, or Nurgle's could be rottenmeatspace. ]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Mon, 20 Aug 2007 08:41:34]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ The Crawling Chaos]]></author>
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				<title>RE: 4th Edition D&amp;amp;D</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Meatspace is classic Cyberpunk jargon.  Meat vs machine.  Meatspace vs. cyberspace.  ]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Mon, 20 Aug 2007 09:22:27]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Mannahnin]]></author>
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				<title>RE: 4th Edition D&amp;amp;D</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Ragnar's eyes are the color of television tuned to a dead channel.  His first word was  01100110011101010110001101101011, and he took his senior trip with a little club called Screaming Fist.   <img src="/s/i/a/6d3c0a908a3861135dfaebde91c0ecf6.gif" border="0"> <br><br>I loved Dark Sun in college.  Instead of dating, I became a Dragon.  I think it was a good tradeoff.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Mon, 20 Aug 2007 11:43:38]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Jester]]></author>
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				<title>RE: 4th Edition D&amp;amp;D</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <div   >It doesnt take a great mind to make great rules. It takes a great mind to create an immersive setting. This is where the money should be invested, not rehashing rules.</div  ><br><br>I think it takes a great mind to do anything great (and relatively mental).  It's just a question of what kind of greatness.  Optimally you'd have both great rules and great source.  Which benefits you more probably depends most on what you're weak on.<br><br><div   >This is going to be sweet.</div  ><br><br>It certainly COULD be very sweet.  There're a ton of simple tools out there already, and more that could be made, all of which could speed play and make the game much more fun.<br><br>I am concerned about losing aspects of the game that make it what it is.  Having the minis on the table, on the map, seeing the dice roll, that stuff matters to me for some reason.<br><br>When 3.0 came out, some guys were complaining that the arcane, messed up rules of 2nd ed were part of the charm.  I thought they were nuts.  I guess everyone has their tipping point on tradition.  I play a ton of MMORPG hours, I'm fully versed in the power of computers in gaming, but I dunno.  <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(326);'>DnD</span> needs pens and paper at the core of it.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Mon, 20 Aug 2007 12:15:47]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Phryxis]]></author>
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				<title>RE: 4th Edition D&amp;amp;D</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <div   >the color of television tuned to a dead channel </div  ><br><br>that is probably one of the best openin glines to any book i have read. and a great novel too.<br><br><div   > I loved Dark Sun in college. Instead of dating, I became a Dragon. I think it was a good tradeoff.</div  ><br><br>Well, the Darksun dragons let you live for ever and become stupid powerful with wealth and fame.<br><br>College dating results in hazy memories of wild, indiscriminate night with a freshman, akward morning introductions, the walk of shame, and a case of the clap.<br><br>Hmmm, that is a tough call.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Mon, 20 Aug 2007 12:44:12]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Reecius]]></author>
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				<title>RE: 4th Edition D&amp;D</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <p>@&nbsp;Mannahnin</p>  <p>I didn't know you still played D&amp;D.&nbsp; A few guys from my high school group really want to start a campaign.&nbsp; We were kicking around the logistics.&nbsp; The first and third Sunday of every month seemed feasable.&nbsp; We would not use computers, but I would love to use miniatures on the big hex-mats.&nbsp; The one guy who said he would <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(344);'>DM</span> using his Forgotten Realms material is dragging his feet and the rest of us are chomping at the bit.&nbsp; I designed a campaign (AD&amp;D 2nd edition based) that used Middle Earth as the setting about 10 years ago, but that is the last time we played.&nbsp; If this new edition is easier, I would like to get my hands on it to see if I can give it a whirl.&nbsp; I remember seeing the new books, I guess it is 3rd edition, and they seemed to change the rules dramatically.&nbsp; It looked like the <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(341);'>d20</span> system was defunct and the stats were based on 100 scale.&nbsp; Unless I am mistaken, it has been a while since I read any D&amp;D material.&nbsp; How many people are in your group?</p>]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Mon, 20 Aug 2007 15:06:19]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ dornsfist]]></author>
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				<title>RE: 4th Edition D&amp;amp;D</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ At Jester:<br><br>That is an interesting quote. What is the book?]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Mon, 20 Aug 2007 16:17:21]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Jezrael]]></author>
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				<title>RE: 4th Edition D&amp;amp;D</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Neuromancer. Well, everything except the funny bits.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Mon, 20 Aug 2007 16:35:44]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ malfred]]></author>
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				<title>RE: 4th Edition D&amp;D</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote class="uncited"><div>Posted By Mannahnin on 08/20/2007 6:13 <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(682);'>AM</span><br />  I haven't heard of any, but the 3rd ed rules are easily robust enough (and psionics much better developed) to handle the campaign setting. The one thing the <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(344);'>DM</span> might need to do is create a prestige class for the Defiler to represent its faster caster progression. </div></blockquote>  <p>&nbsp;</p>  <p><a target=_blank href="http://www.athas.org/">http://www.athas.org/</a></p>  <p>&nbsp;</p>  <p>A little clunky but there's some great material for 3.0 and 3.5 Dark Sun games.<br />  <br />  </p>]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Tue, 21 Aug 2007 00:37:34]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ ChairmanMao]]></author>
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				<title>RE: 4th Edition D&amp;D</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote class="uncited"><div>Posted By syr8766 on 08/19/2007 6:28 <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(634);'>PM</span><br />  My D&amp;D group may not even move to 4th. If we do, I've at least got a few months to sell my books off on ebay. <br />  <br />  Shmucks. </div></blockquote>  <p><br />  <br />  hell, i called it good at 2nd edition. I found anything after that was just more of the same and really didn't do anything but convolute the game with silly specializations and uneeded traits.</p>  <p>&nbsp;</p>  <p>gary gygax last had his input in 2nd edition. when he sold it off, D&amp;D died for me. too much of the blue skinned elf with strength and abilities of a half ogre and the size of a halfling, who could breath fire and phase through walls and breath underwater.&nbsp; that kinda crap killed D&amp;D..&nbsp; half-orc were a stretch, half-ogres, half=giants, and half-dragons went too far. </p>]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Tue, 21 Aug 2007 01:30:01]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ two heads talking]]></author>
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				<title>RE: 4th Edition D&amp;amp;D</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <div   >that kinda crap killed D&amp;D.. half-orc were a stretch, half-ogres, half=giants, and half-dragons went too far. </div  ><br />  <br />  But without all those half-monsters, where will all the furries turn to in order to get their kicks? Oh and don't ask what a furry is if you don't know.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Tue, 21 Aug 2007 03:23:29]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ stonefox]]></author>
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				<title>RE: 4th Edition D&amp;amp;D</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Nothing killed D&D.  3rd edition brought it back from a pretty moribund state, though.<br><br>I started with the red-box Basic D&D set, so I remember the simpler rules, and some of the template weirdness (half-dragons, etc) is not to my taste, but that's the beauty of playing an <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(345);'>RPG</span>.  The <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(344);'>DM</span> decides what fits in his campaign.  If you don't like something, you don't have to use it.  It's not like a competitive tournament game where you're always going to be playing against strangers whose idea of what fits in the game doesn't mesh with yours.  <br><br>3rd edition (and later) has done a much better job of balancing the classes and systems, and of giving players tactical options in combat.  The flanking and "five foot step" systems are classic examples.  They lead to very dynamic combats, with characters constantly moving around, jockeying for position and advantage.  I loved 1st and 2nd edition D&D/<span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(687);'>AD</span>&D, but the revised editions are just better games.  Of course, with a roleplaying game you never really *need* a good game engine.  Roleplaying is the most important part, and you need almost no rules at all to do that.  ]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Tue, 21 Aug 2007 03:30:50]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Mannahnin]]></author>
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				<title>RE: 4th Edition D&amp;amp;D</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ I eagerly anticipate some amusing changes in The Order Of The Stick.<br><br>http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Tue, 21 Aug 2007 04:08:30]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Kilkrazy]]></author>
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				<title>RE: 4th Edition D&amp;amp;D</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Boyz,<br><br>I used to love D&D. Then I turned 12. <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(84);'>lol</span><br><br><br>Seriously though, the moment G.Gygax sold D&D, it really was a business decision, and the game developed along those lines. $$$$ needed to keep rolling in! What it really gets down to is: Do you Role play or Roll play? <br><br>The books count for naught, 1st, 2nd, 3rd,4th Ed are all just re-hashes of the saqme concept, Medi-eval Fantasy world. The only thing that makes for a great game are the players & <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(524);'>GM</span>, the books basically should be used as Character sheet paper-weights.  The only limitation is the imagination of those playing/<span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(524);'>GM</span>'ing.<br><br>Just my 2 cents worth, as I have been the <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(524);'>GM</span> of a gaming group for the last 20-odd years, we seem to have alot of fun with VERY few complaints.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Tue, 21 Aug 2007 16:49:20]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ akira5665]]></author>
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				<title>RE: 4th Edition D&amp;amp;D</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ A strong system reinforces the roleplaying, and adds depth and texture to the game. A poor system gets in the way of that.<br><br>System does matter a great deal to the over all play experience, the same as with <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(50);'>GW</span> games.<br><br>Dogs in the Vineyard and Sorcerer are both good <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(345);'>RPG</span>'s to look at if you want to see how changing the system can effect the interaction and story development at the table.<br><br>Personally, I'm looking forward to D&D 4. From the previews it looks like they fixed most of my problems with 3.X (which in turn dramatically improved upon 2.X).]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Tue, 21 Aug 2007 17:14:01]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Asmodai]]></author>
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				<title>RE: 4th Edition D&amp;D</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote class="uncited"><div>Posted By Mannahnin on 08/21/2007 8:30 <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(682);'>AM</span><br />  Nothing killed D&amp;D. 3rd edition brought it back from a pretty moribund state, though.<br />  <br />  </div></blockquote>  <p>in my opinion, i humbly disagree. the redundant rules, the over expouding on combat etc. sure you can keep dumping money into new rule books and pick and chose what you want. That's an option. As with <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(50);'>GW</span>, it's a financial decision that change must be made to earn money. </p>  <p>In fact i think I remember seeing a <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(385);'>WOC</span> person quoted as saying, there must be constant change in order to keep money coming in. </p>  <p>for me, D&amp;D stopped being fun when it was overweighted with specializations and 765 handbooks of theives and mages and all that. The expense wasn't worth the information in the books. So having said that, I stayed with what was fun and played 2nd edition exclusively. then once I tried 3.5.&nbsp; and remembered why i played 2nd edition.&nbsp; for me it was the most fun.&nbsp; </p>]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 22 Aug 2007 08:37:20]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ two heads talking]]></author>
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				<title>RE: 4th Edition D&amp;D</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote class="uncited"><div>Posted By two heads talking  on  08/22/2007 1:37 <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(634);'>PM</span><br />  <p>for me, D&amp;D stopped being fun when it was overweighted with specializations and 765 handbooks of theives and mages and all that. The expense wasn't worth the information in the books.<br />  </p>  </div></blockquote>  <br />  <br />  So 1981 then?<br />  <br />  <br />  AD&amp;D 2e had:<br />  <br />  The Complete Thief's Handbook<br />  The Complete Wizard's Handbook<br />  The Complete Fighter's Handbook<br />  The Complete Paladin's Handbook<br />  The Complete Druid's Handbook<br />  The Complete Priest's Handbook<br />  The Complete Bard's Handbook<br />  The Complete Ranger's Handbook<br />  The Complete Psionics Handbook<br />  The Complete Ninja's Handbook<br />  --- All full of unbalanced kits for your inner power gamer<br />  <br />  The Complete Book of Humanoids<br />  The Complete Book of Gnomes &amp; Halflings<br />  The Complete Book of Elves<br />  The Complete Book of Dwarves<br />  --- See above<br />  <br />  Arms &amp; Equipment Guide (full of new better weapons to cheese out your characters)<br />  Book of Artifacts (better magic items)<br />  Tome of Magic (better spells)<br />  <br />  Several dozen setting specific books (e.g. Wizards &amp; Rogues of the Realms) full of more unbalanced kits.<br />  <br />  The whole Skills &amp; Powers series which allowed power-gaming and cheesing to an extent never seen before nor since.<br />  <br />  <br />  Oh, I'm almost forget the Priest and Wizard spell decks - great if you want your game to play like a <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(200);'>CCG</span>.<br />  <br />  Oh, on that topic the Encyclopedias each consisting of 6-8 volumes of more powerful Wizard/Cleric spells or magic items.<br />  <br />  <br />  Seriously, one of the great things about D&amp;D 3.X is that is discarded all the unbalanced, overpowered or just plain silly junk that had been bogging AD&amp;D down for a decade. You might want a lens cleaner to get that rose-tint out of your glasses.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 22 Aug 2007 08:56:58]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Asmodai]]></author>
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				<title>RE: 4th Edition D&amp;amp;D</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ People are probably including open license <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(341);'>d20</span> stuff into their idea of what supplements were.<br>]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 22 Aug 2007 09:00:14]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ malfred]]></author>
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				<title>RE: 4th Edition D&amp;amp;D</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <div   >Oh, on that topic the Encyclopedias each consisting of 6-8 volumes of more powerful Wizard/Cleric spells or magic items.</div  ><br><br>Funny thing?  The <i>Encyclopedia Magica</i> killed TSR.  Every complete set sold lost them $5 - pretty color, ribbons, etc.<br><br>Encyclopida Magica was 4 volumes; the Wizards Spell Compendium was 4 volumes; the Clerics was 3.  I have them all, and use them as inspiration for both spells and plots.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 22 Aug 2007 09:00:42]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Janthkin]]></author>
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				<title>RE: 4th Edition D&amp;D</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote class="uncited"><div>Posted By Asmodai on 08/22/2007 1:56 <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(634);'>PM</span><br />  <blockquote class="uncited"><div>Posted By two heads talking on 08/22/2007 1:37 <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(634);'>PM</span><br />  <p>for me, D&amp;D stopped being fun when it was overweighted with specializations and 765 handbooks of theives and mages and all that. The expense wasn't worth the information in the books.<br />  </p>  </div></blockquote>  <br />  <br />  So 1981 then?<br />  <br />  <br />  AD&amp;D 2e had:<br />  <br />  The Complete Thief's Handbook<br />  The Complete Wizard's Handbook<br />  The Complete Fighter's Handbook<br />  The Complete Paladin's Handbook<br />  The Complete Druid's Handbook<br />  The Complete Priest's Handbook<br />  The Complete Bard's Handbook<br />  The Complete Ranger's Handbook<br />  The Complete Psionics Handbook<br />  The Complete Ninja's Handbook<br />  --- All full of unbalanced kits for your inner power gamer<br />  <br />  The Complete Book of Humanoids<br />  The Complete Book of Gnomes &amp; Halflings<br />  The Complete Book of Elves<br />  The Complete Book of Dwarves<br />  --- See above<br />  <br />  Arms &amp; Equipment Guide (full of new better weapons to cheese out your characters)<br />  Book of Artifacts (better magic items)<br />  Tome of Magic (better spells)<br />  <br />  Several dozen setting specific books (e.g. Wizards &amp; Rogues of the Realms) full of more unbalanced kits.<br />  <br />  The whole Skills &amp; Powers series which allowed power-gaming and cheesing to an extent never seen before nor since.<br />  <br />  <br />  Oh, I'm almost forget the Priest and Wizard spell decks - great if you want your game to play like a <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(200);'>CCG</span>.<br />  <br />  Oh, on that topic the Encyclopedias each consisting of 6-8 volumes of more powerful Wizard/Cleric spells or magic items.<br />  <br />  <br />  Seriously, one of the great things about D&amp;D 3.X is that is discarded all the unbalanced, overpowered or just plain silly junk that had been bogging AD&amp;D down for a decade. You might want a lens cleaner to get that rose-tint out of your glasses.</div></blockquote>  I own all those books. <img src='http://www.dakkadakka.com/DesktopModules/NTForums/images/emoticons/sad.gif'><br />  <br />]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 22 Aug 2007 11:15:42]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Jester]]></author>
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				<title>RE: 4th Edition D&amp;D</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(84);'>LOL</span>.&nbsp; <br />  <br />  Well, <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(341);'>D20</span> OGL stuff aside, there are still an absurd number of supplements for 3rd/3.5 edition.&nbsp; Of course, I've been playing for years with just the three core books (+ and old copy of Temple of Elemental Evil for my most recent campaign) and have had a blast.&nbsp; I'm pretty happy with 3rd edition, though some of the mechanics are too clunky to bother with in the heat of combat.&nbsp; <br />  <br />  As far as 3rd edition's combat emphasis goes, I see it as an attempt to be true to Gary Gygax's original conception of D&amp;D.&nbsp; His games are run more like a wargame than most <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(345);'>RPG</span>'s are run these days.&nbsp;]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 22 Aug 2007 19:10:49]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Pariah Press]]></author>
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				<title>RE: 4th Edition D&amp;amp;D</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <div   >Thats why 2nd edition is the best</div  ><br><br>You have been SO sniffing the modeling glue.<br><br>Yes 2nd had alot of material, but best? Oh hell no.......it had the most bloat, thats for sure....]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 23 Aug 2007 01:25:22]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ carmachu]]></author>
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				<title>RE: 4th Edition D&amp;D</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote class="uncited"><div>Posted By Asmodai on 08/22/2007 1:56 <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(634);'>PM</span><br />  <blockquote class="uncited"><div>Posted By two heads talking on 08/22/2007 1:37 <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(634);'>PM</span><br />  <p>for me, D&amp;D stopped being fun when it was overweighted with specializations and 765 handbooks of theives and mages and all that. The expense wasn't worth the information in the books.<br />  </p>  </div></blockquote>  <br />  <br />  So 1981 then?<br />  <br />  <br />  AD&amp;D 2e had:<br />  <br />  The Complete Thief's Handbook<br />  The Complete Wizard's Handbook<br />  The Complete Fighter's Handbook<br />  The Complete Paladin's Handbook<br />  The Complete Druid's Handbook<br />  The Complete Priest's Handbook<br />  The Complete Bard's Handbook<br />  The Complete Ranger's Handbook<br />  The Complete Psionics Handbook<br />  The Complete Ninja's Handbook<br />  --- All full of unbalanced kits for your inner power gamer<br />  <br />  The Complete Book of Humanoids<br />  The Complete Book of Gnomes &amp; Halflings<br />  The Complete Book of Elves<br />  The Complete Book of Dwarves<br />  --- See above<br />  <br />  Arms &amp; Equipment Guide (full of new better weapons to cheese out your characters)<br />  Book of Artifacts (better magic items)<br />  Tome of Magic (better spells)<br />  <br />  Several dozen setting specific books (e.g. Wizards &amp; Rogues of the Realms) full of more unbalanced kits.<br />  <br />  The whole Skills &amp; Powers series which allowed power-gaming and cheesing to an extent never seen before nor since.<br />  <br />  <br />  Oh, I'm almost forget the Priest and Wizard spell decks - great if you want your game to play like a <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(200);'>CCG</span>.<br />  <br />  Oh, on that topic the Encyclopedias each consisting of 6-8 volumes of more powerful Wizard/Cleric spells or magic items.<br />  <br />  <br />  Seriously, one of the great things about D&amp;D 3.X is that is discarded all the unbalanced, overpowered or just plain silly junk that had been bogging AD&amp;D down for a decade. You might want a lens cleaner to get that rose-tint out of your glasses.</div></blockquote>  <br />  yeah when those books started coming out. i put it all away. i looked at them, some of the ideas were cool. but they were all overloaded.. my glasses are the&nbsp;tint I like them thank you. I don't expect everyone to share my opinion, nor my sentiment. rather than act like you are better than someone with the rose color comment, just accept that some people might not agree with you.. it's ok not to agree. it's not okay to be an asshat just because you disagree.&nbsp; <br />]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 23 Aug 2007 02:03:55]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ two heads talking]]></author>
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				<title>RE: 4th Edition D&amp;amp;D</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <div   >rather than act like you are better than someone with the rose color comment, just accept that some people might not agree with you.. it's ok not to agree. it's not okay to be an asshat just because you disagree.  </div  ><br><br>Well, no. While its ok to disagree.....the reasons you gave were wrong, because second ed had the same bloat you complained about in 3.X edition.<br><br>]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 23 Aug 2007 03:09:37]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ carmachu]]></author>
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				<title>RE: 4th Edition D&amp;amp;D</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ 4th Edition may be interesting to check out for those who haven't played in over a decade. I got out when 2nd edition began putting out all the specialized books. As a <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(344);'>DM</span>, it just felt like it was too much to keep up with.<br><br>I guess I'm just old now. I enjoyed playing with the PHB, <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(198);'>DMG</span>, MM1 and Unearthed Arcana. The modules contained most of what I needed to play. <br><br>But, I do give credit to WotC. I did read through the 3rd edtion main books and the game mechanics seem to be so much smoother than previous incarnations. I would think 4th edition would be further improvements for better gameplay. <br><br>For someone who hasn't played <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(345);'>RPG</span>'s in over a decade, 4th edition has me wondering if I should take a break from <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(3);'>40K</span> for awhile.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 23 Aug 2007 03:19:18]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Sarigar]]></author>
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				<title>RE: 4th Edition D&amp;amp;D</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Hmmm. Well, all my favourite role playing experiences so far have come from playing with sound people in enjoyable settings. A ravenloft game in the excellent Swords and Sorcery setting was fantastic and we still talk about it fondly 2 years on. When I started running it, I'd never played D'n'D and learned the rules as I went along. That definitely showed me that you can have fun with minimal rules and props if the setting is good. We used the Athas.org stuff to run a Darksun game that was fantastic. I don't like Forgotten Realms (too high magic and elf ridden thanks), but I really enjoyed my stint in Eberron. I'm hoping they get back to producing some excellent background stuff, those Gazetteers for Ravenloft were amazing, and OGL for those who hate it.<br>I've been playing D'n'D for 5 years though, and I've never bought a book. <br>These days I do use the various props like battle maps and minis, it clarrifys and speeds up combat.<br>And gives me reasons to sculpt and paint things I would not otherwise.<br><br>So really, 4th ed is a blip for me- if it's amazingly good and they release some excellent adventures and settings, I might pick it up. But if it's just books of crunch and "skill trees" I'll ignore it and probably head off into some other system.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 23 Aug 2007 05:38:14]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Da Boss]]></author>
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				<title>RE: 4th Edition D&amp;D</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote class="uncited"><div>Posted By Sarigar on 08/23/2007 8:19 <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(682);'>AM</span><br />  4th Edition may be interesting to check out for those who haven't played in over a decade. I got out when 2nd edition began putting out all the specialized books. As a <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(344);'>DM</span>, it just felt like it was too much to keep up with.<br />  <br />  I guess I'm just old now. I enjoyed playing with the PHB, <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(198);'>DMG</span>, MM1 and Unearthed Arcana. The modules contained most of what I needed to play. <br />  </div></blockquote>  <p><br />  that's why i stopped at 2nd edition too, in fact I think I mentioned that before (carmachu, if you care to reread my posts you might see that)..&nbsp; and then gary turning it over to wotc just spoiled the already aging milk.&nbsp; </p>  <p>it's fine carm, we hardly see eye to eye, I didn't really expect to see eye to eye with you here. I hated bloat. i hated it in 2nd edition thus why i got out) and 3rd edition, my reasons were valid carm, you just missed the forest through the trees i guess. </p>]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 23 Aug 2007 06:24:02]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ two heads talking]]></author>
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				<title>RE: 4th Edition D&amp;amp;D</title>
				<description><![CDATA[   The thing is, you can just ignore the bloat.  Pretend it doesn't exist.  Forbid your players from using any of it, and you're all set.  I ignore all non-core books for D&D.  <br><br>  Now <b>Rifts</b>... Rifts is another matter.  That has some very, very fun bloat!  ]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 23 Aug 2007 19:39:45]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Pariah Press]]></author>
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