less options- which sucks

nudered deamons- which really sucks if you were a deamony kinda player

but as far as everything else go's im pretty happy with it, i do like having plague marines thousand sons nosie marines and berzerkers as troops while still leaving basic mairnes around. i think it will lead to new kinds of lists flying round. and 1ks sons kick so much @$$ its awsome!!!!!

the vindicator will make some people out there pretty happy

abbadon is actually pretty scary

cheaper rhinos and land raider is a bonus (only downside is no more fire control)

but all in all im cool with it and be a happy chaos player!

as some-one you plays and collects all of the chaos legions, Tzeentch finally got the boost it needed.

It's awesome (powerful) now compared to terrible.  But maybe too much of a swing.

And yet again, Warseer and B&C (yes the wastes) are wash with commentary from JJ that there are NO plans for a redux.

http://warseer.com/forums/40k-news-rumour-discussion/107810-some-comfirmations.html?highlight=redux

 So if / until something changes, marines - the supposedly most hidebound of forces- have the most optionality.

Edit: haven't played in about two months at this point. Are people seeing variety in the new chaos lists-not theoryhammer but actual minis on the board?

That's the thing for me.  As a product, is this codex inspiring?  Does it inspire players to start Chaos armies? 

Obviously, some folks have been.  And certainly the weird Warseer types can feel morally righteous about this book after calling the old one concentrated evil simply because of a few broken builds. But I suspect many others aren't interested, at least not like with the old book. 

GW's problem is that they approached this as a streamlining without really offering any new take or new direction.  Yes, I know -- this one is about renegades.  But what flavor or take does it offer a renegade player that the last book didn't? 

Obviously, I'm biased, but if you're going to streamline the book and steer it away from the Legions, why not really change things and work in a few LatD elements to better differentiate CSMs from the loyalists?  Then follow up one year later with a Legions book based around the "big four." That way you end up with:

1) A somewhat new take on CSMs that might attract new players
2) Reason for existing CSM players to add new units and buy more models
3) *More* support for people interested in Legions (and more CSM sales)

How is that not a better plan for GW? 

It's fine that they broke some eggs...but then you have to make the omelet.  GW forgot to turn on the stove. 

At a time when the Legions are at a height of popularity thanks to the HH books, their entire business plan on Chaos is bizarre to me. And don't get me started on creating an all-daemon army that you won't even be able to use with CSM armies.  I don't blame Jervis and the designers much...it's clear a lot of this is coming from above them. 

Yeah, if you're that down on it, it says a lot.

Quoted for truthery.

Think if they had gone into detail doing:

Inversely do a retrospective. Lets pull back to HH. Detail the traitor legions in all their original glory.  Lets capitalize on these HH books.  Give them unique weaponry that existed at the time period: some ideas: a higher percentage of artificer armor,  some better weapons, some heavy support, legion specific wargear and vehicles (Warmaster design landraider, Emperor's champion rapier tank, World Eaters Death Brigade or other interesting oddities made up just for them).  Lets put in some heroes and villains from the books and their power at the time of the heresy.  Loken, Torgaddon, Tarvitz, Eoden, maybe even a page with the list for the Eisenstein 70.  You could then play them as heretics or loyalists pre-crusade (or what if scenarios). include new missions specific to the codex, culminating in "Breach at Imperial Gate 27"

Put a note in that this is dex I, Codex Dark Crusades is Part II

Codex Dark Crusades would detail chaos in at the turn of the 40th K. That codex would link in new traitors, LATD, and Chaos forces, demonic legions, Sons of Sek units all that jazz.  Have traitor cults units as new elites being  more powerful than previously, and rare leading these overall forces.  Visualize HH era survivors as A Champ level or even GK level commanding a bunch of chaos mainre "newbs" or chaos forces storming through the Sabbat region, new area incursions, and of course the bloodbath at EOT.

It could have been glorious.

Just think, you could then have a codex for marines at the time of HH as well.

There is one thing I do agree with him on though, and that is flavor/character or whatever you want to call it.  I was never into old chaos nor did I play it, so it has nothing to do with comparing to the old stuff. But having bought the army deal, and put most of it together I found I couldn't really get into it, for some unknown reason I just just couldn't find that spark of imagination that made we want to get it painted and and play with them.

It's really sad, isn't it?  There's so many interesting things they could have done.  And I don't think it's truly because of a lack of ideas among the designers.

But GW's now a company primarily concerned with shelf space, inventory management and plastics manufacturing...not ideas.  Don't get me wrong, I understand GW's business constraints and needs.  But at the end of the day, you have to create interesting products that your customers really WANT.

At least Orks look promising. 

I respect the need to make profits, and inventory management is one part of that.  However, this really wouldn't have impacted that. Their net SKU's need not have been higher.  Indeed I'm all about combining SKU's. My primary point is that this is a fluff breakage and list breakage.  A chaos sprue option nets you all the marine and IG vehicles troops. Specialized chaos minis would be no more than now, just set at HH.  The Dark Crusades book would feed off existing, mayhaps with some minor new kits and, heaven forbid, use of conversions until particular SKU's become popular enough to warrant the cost of a new SKU. They could even have "how to kits" for converting things to non-produced models (the scorpion comes to mind).  It also would be a nice feed for FW.

But in essence its purely a fluff and list change.

And just like in my review thread, they're all heaping on me for the same reason. They all think I'm complaining about lost Codex power.


Please people, get it through your skulls:

I. Do. Not. Care. How. Powerful. Or. Weak. The. New. Chaos. Codex. Is.

It could be the most powerful Codex on the shelves. It could be spanking 'Ziller lists and killing Falcons with ease and I wouldn't a give a damn.

Why?

Because it's boring!!!

The character of the Legions are gone. The varied lists that made things interesting are gone. The endless options and choice a Chaos player had is gone.

Whenever someone says "Well atleast 1Ksons are competative now" I both laugh and die a little inside because 1kSons don't EXIST as an army any more. They're a unit choice. But, on the bright side, atleast they got a unit choice. For all us Iron Warrior, Word Bearer and Alpha Legion players out there - like myself - we got relegated to simply a different paint job on our models. And let's not even get started on my second fav army in the game, my lovingly created and tirelessly converted Lost & The Damned army, who are now completely gone.

And then the Daemons. Emperor's Blood the Daemons...

I said it in my review and I'm going say it again here:


It is absolutley sickening that GW can release three different rulesets for Deep Striking Terminators in three codex-following Marine Chapters (Ultras, Dark Angels, Imperial Fists), yet there isn't enough difference in their minds to give a Bloodthirster and a Lord of Change different statlines.


It's a joke.

The new Codex has powerful builds.
The new Codex can be abused - not as much as the old one, but I never denied that the old one was a little too powerful in some cases.
There's nothing wrong with the new Codex from a game or power perspective.

But for the reasons I play this game - for the background, fluff and making themed armies - this Codex is devoid of life. It's dull. Lifeless. A testament to the unimaginative morons who write these things (Phil Kelly aside... I think he's the last great bastion of decent Codex construction).


So for the love of our Immortal Emperor, please stop whining at me about how I just want my 4 Heavy Support Choices back, or my Daemon Bomb back. I don't want either of those. What I want is the SOUL of Chaos to be returned, so that the army is fun again.

BYE

If you dont like these types of threads so much....dont read them.

This is what a chaos discussion looks like nowadays.

Perhaps I'm behind in the times for rumors or some such, perhaps you could enlighten us on what you've heard about CODEX: World Eaters, or CODEX: Night Lords....

sorry, you're the only one that see's a pattern set up for legion codeii, its not happening, thats been a pipe dream for chaos players for the last 3 editions of the army.  This is all marine players are going to have to work with until finally Codex: daemons comes out....if it does.

....chaos marines are screwed for the next couple of years...this will be all they get.

...thank you drive thru.

But then how would they be distinguished from loyalists?  Why wouldn't recently turned chapters still have assault cannons, land speeders, razorbacks, attack bikes and scouts?  Why would they all of a sudden start arming their devastators with autocannons, plasma guns, meltaguns, and flamers instead of multi-meltas and plasma cannons?

What they should have done is kept the Chaos legions separate in their own codex (maybe with the addition of mutants/cultists).  Then they should have had a separate codex/supplement with rules about how to convert the space marine and imperial guard lists to renegade marines and traitors - basically a more in-depth and detailed version of the Adversaries rules from the DH and WH codices.  This supplement would contain rules for "lesser" Marks (i.e. Chaos Icons), additional units (e.g. cultists, mutants, generic daemons), additional abilities (i.e. mutations and gifts), and restrictions (e.g. no ATSKNF, no Chaplains, no Priests)

Of course this doesn't fit into GW's "one book, one army" stand-alone codex paradigm, so instead they change the fluff to make every Chaos force fit a single ruleset - and yes, the fluff has been ever so subtly changed.  Just look at the new emphasis on mixed warbands consisting of a bazillion different chapters and legions all working together kumbaya.  Judging solely by the pictures in the new codex it looks almost as if Abaddon has decreed that (with the exception of the Black Legion) henceforth Chaos marines from a single legion may never congregate in groups larger than 10.

With only one ruleset to govern all of Chaos, what we get inevitably ends up looking like a sort of statistical average of what used to be widely disparate and varied forces.  The result is Thousand Sons and Death Guard running alongside Red Corsair terminators with reaper autocannons.

The new Chaos codex is about neither renegade chapters nor traitor legions - at least not as we knew them in the previous fluff.  The new codex is about a bland new hybrid of the two that hadn't really existed until now.  It's Codex: Part Legions, Part Renegades, All Bland.

sorry, you're the only one that see's a pattern set up for legion codeii, its not happening, thats been a pipe dream for chaos players for the last 3 editions of the army.  This is all marine players are going to have to work with until finally Codex: daemons comes out....if it does.

It seems like all signs point to the daemon book next year.  However, all signs also point to it not being "allyable" with the CSM codex.  So if you want to start an all-daemon army, you'll be happy. 

I think they left design room for Legion books, but who knows when or if they'll ever happen.  I imagine they'll be YEARS down the road at the very minimum. 

When you look at the struggle it's been to get an updated Ork codex, you have to think GW's representation of Chaos in 40K will be the new CSM codex, and an all-daemon army book (essentially 40K rules for WFB Daemonic Legions) for a very long time.  

Yeah, that oughta cover it. 

Boo. 

  #1. Lack of lascanons. The good choices are infiltrating chosen but they pay a premium for their lascanons and oblits. Other than that you are looking at land raiders which are still expensive, 10 man marine squads (if they had combat squads they would be much better.), very expensive predators and havocs. So, not very many good options for you.

  #2. Lack of psychic defense. You introduce the lash which is overpowered, but no defense against it? Almost every army out there has some defense against psychic powers, but to have a codex without anything is idiotic. You have Thousand Sons which are some of the most powerful sorcerers in the galaxy, but they can’t figure out how to stop psychic attacks?

Having both guard and chaos, I can safely say you are incorrect. Guard have doctrines, which makes them quite customizable. Now we all know a plethora of doctrines are craptacular due to inefficient costing, but we still can play them. Add on armored company and the joy of FW/IA, and we have quite  a few lists.

The more appropriate comparison would be chaos vs. the V3 vanilla marine codex.  No doctrines, no traits, demons are two items in total, one of which is HQ.

How is an army themed when they have Thousand Sons, Raptors, Obliterators, and a Greater Daemon of _____^* led by a pair of Slaaneshi Fzorglerors?  In fact what incentive do the rules give me not to have my Khorne army led by two Fzorgle Princes with the Mark of Slaanesh?  Not only is it perfectly legal, I don't even have to worry about losing my free champions anymore!

^* : Who cares?  THEY'RE ALL THE SAME!

Posted By smart_alex on 10/22/2007 10:54 PM
Now it seems with daemons all the same stat line, (If I understood corectly) there will be no more circus effect cause people will have a true, slaneesh army with all slaneesh daemons, no need to buy somthing else to throw the theme off.

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 10/23/2007 2:39 PM

Posted By smart_alex on 10/22/2007 10:54 PM
Now it seems with daemons all the same stat line, (If I understood corectly) there will be no more circus effect cause people will have a true, slaneesh army with all slaneesh daemons, no need to buy somthing else to throw the theme off.

Well for the sake of argument let's just assume that the new daemons are actually worth fielding.  Now suppose I had already made a Slaanesh "circus" army with a mix of daemons using the old codex.  Who says I'm all of a sudden going to have a true Slaanesh army with all Slaanesh daemons under the new one?  Why wouldn't I continue to use my Bloodletters and Furies models?  In fact, since they're all identical now I could even mix them together in the same squads!  Now that's what I call a circus!  And if I wanted to pad my numbers I could just pick up a pack of Nurglings, put each on their own individual bases, and sprinkle them around my daemon units.  Not only would this be cheap, it would have the added bonus of annoying people like yourself!  Hey, maybe the new codex isn't so bad afterall!

"There were too many abusive builds in the old codex that carried the theme of an army to stupid extremes.  I know I got tired of the tournament winning 9 Oblit/6 man Las-plas/4 Heavy list. "

What I am tired of is the idea that, because a few tournament players don't like something, the entire universe of 40K players, including the vast majority that aren't tournament players, have to have a watered-down insult to the intelligence like the new Chaos codex imposed on them.

"The new codex is more of a grab bag, while it got rid of daemonic gifts and the books of chaos it also got rid of many of the annoying constraints that made building an army frustrating."

Every army in 40K has some constraints.  Space Marines can't run all jump-pack command squads (unless they're Raven Guard).  Tyranids can't run two flying Hive Tyrants.  So what?   

"on the whole, this codex is a step in the right direction from the old one. "

If you're looking for over-simplified rules that appeal to spoiled ten-year-old brats who can nag their rich daddies to buy tons of stuff for them, sure it is. 

If the forthcoming demon codex doesn't restore most of the daemonic gifts and the cult army lists, I for one will confine using my World Eaters army to friendly games where I can use the previous codex. 

No the answer is to raise the level of the other list rather than have the thoroughbred list reduced to nag status.  But that would take effort and competence, better to geld the good list so everyone can enjoy mediocrity.

My point was themeing not legality.  Im sure your list is legal, but it looks like a joke.  A circus.  Go ahead with all your freak show varietiy of daemons, im sure its effective and kick ass.  Like i said before, there will be NO THEME.  other than the I WANT TO WIN THEME.  They dont even look like an army.   Like I said, im sure its legal and everything, but theming is in the tip of you paint brush and in your artistic ability, NOT IN THE RULEBOOK.  Those who think other wise are clowns, so it makes sense they would miss the old ways, cause there is no longer a point for the head clown to be leader of the circus.

Posted By smart_alex on 10/23/2007 5:46 PM

Those who think other wise are clowns, so it makes sense they would miss the old ways, cause there is no longer a point for the head clown to be leader of the circus.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 10/23/2007 3:53 PM
I suspect that we'd here a lot of *female dog*ing still if we had "generic demons" that could be marked to give you:

+1T for Plaguebearers
+1I for Demonettes
+1A for Bloodletters
4+ Inv Save for Horrors

Each mark costs +2 Points per model.  Then they'd be different, but still mediocre.  Would you still be here complaining about it?

Yes, and the complaint would be the same.  There should be more differences between a Daemonette and a Bloodletter than a mere ±1I or ±1A.  However, that still would have been preferable to what we actually got.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 10/23/2007 3:53 PM
What I don't see as a failing is the little itty benefits or restrictions that the old rules placed on you for "theme", where as now the same "theme" can be replicated in many instances.

In the old codex Thousand Sons sucked, but I could still make a nice fluffy Thousand Sons army with rubric terminators and sorcerer lords and sorcerer chosen.  I can't do that anymore.  If I try to build a Thousand Sons army using the new codex I find that I run out of choices the moment I look outside of the Troops section of the army list.  Sure, I can field a "Tzeentch-themed" army with Thousand Sons squads, but if I can't field a Thousand Sons army.  It seems my "theme" has been significantly watered-down.

Putting effectiveness aside, the old codex contained 9 different fluffy army lists.  There were 4 different kinds of Death Guard squad (CSM, Chosen, Possessed, Havocs), 4 different kinds of Thousand Sons squad (CSM, Chosen, Possessed, Rubric Terminators), 4 different kinds of World Eaters squad (CSM, Chosen, Possessed, Bikers), and 5 different kinds of Emperor's Children squad (CSM, Chosen, Possessed, Bikers, Havocs).  Now there are 1 each.  And no, squads with an Icon are not the same as cult squads (Tzeentch terminators are neither sorcerers nor rubrics, Khorne bikers are not Fearless, Slaanesh havocs can't take sonic weapons, etc).  So when it comes to encouraging variation in purely fluffy armies the new codex is a failure.

The old codex contained a number of strong builds.  Black Legion, Word Bearers, Emperor's Children, Alpha Legion, and, of course, Iron Warriors could all build very competitive lists.  Now there is one strong build (Fzorgle).  So when it comes to encouraging variation in purely competitive armies the new codex is a failure.

On the other hand Black Legion armies got a whole lot more varied - Black Legion can take all sorts of marked non-cult squads.  This shouldn't be surprising considering the single army list in the codex is basically the Black Legion list.  The new codex could be considered a fairly successful Codex: Black Legion.  But as a Codex: Chaos Space Marines, the new codex is a dismal failure.

In the old codex Thousand Sons sucked, but I could still make a nice fluffy Thousand Sons army with rubric terminators and sorcerer lords and sorcerer chosen.  I can't do that anymore.  If I try to build a Thousand Sons army using the new codex I find that I run out of choices the moment I look outside of the Troops section of the army list.  Sure, I can field a "Tzeentch-themed" army with Thousand Sons squads, but if I can't field a Thousand Sons army.  It seems my "theme" has been significantly watered-down.

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 10/23/2007 6:35 PM

Putting effectiveness aside, the old codex contained 9 different fluffy army lists.  There were 4 different kinds of Death Guard squad (CSM, Chosen, Possessed, Havocs), 4 different kinds of Thousand Sons squad (CSM, Chosen, Possessed, Rubric Terminators), 4 different kinds of World Eaters squad (CSM, Chosen, Possessed, Bikers), and 5 different kinds of Emperor's Children squad (CSM, Chosen, Possessed, Bikers, Havocs).  Now there are 1 each.  And no, squads with an Icon are not the same as cult squads (Tzeentch terminators are neither sorcerers nor rubrics, Khorne bikers are not Fearless, Slaanesh havocs can't take sonic weapons, etc).  So when it comes to encouraging variation in purely fluffy armies the new codex is a failure.

The old codex contained a number of strong builds.  Black Legion, Word Bearers, Emperor's Children, Alpha Legion, and, of course, Iron Warriors could all build very competitive lists.  Now there is one strong build (Fzorgle).  So when it comes to encouraging variation in purely competitive armies the new codex is a failure.

On the other hand Black Legion armies got a whole lot more varied - Black Legion can take all sorts of marked non-cult squads.  This shouldn't be surprising considering the single army list in the codex is basically the Black Legion list.  The new codex could be considered a fairly successful Codex: Black Legion.  But as a Codex: Chaos Space Marines, the new codex is a dismal failure.

So?  It was fluffy.  What's wrong with rules that reward you for playing according to the fluff?  Isn't that what rules are supposed to do?  Now if you were objecting solely on the grounds that they were unbalanced, then all I can say to you is "welcome to the Games Workshop Hobby™!"  GW has proven time and again that when it comes to writing balanced rules they can't tell their heads from their asses.  Yes, it's true - fewer options mean fewer opportunities for showcasing their incompetence.  But if that's their solution then we're gonna end up playing Checkers 40,000 before we get a balanced game.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 10/23/2007 8:43 PM
So if I wasn't playing 1kSons before, but I wanted Tzeench worshiping Terminators, I got "Rubric Terminators" who counted as Tzeench Terminators.

Or you could have fielded Terminator Chosen who, while not very good value for the pts, were perfectly good representatives of generic Tzeentch Terminators.  But this begs the question - why couldn't we have both?  Just change the old MoT to grant Terminators +1 inv save instead of Sorcerer.  Why does that necessitate the removal of Rubric Terminators?

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 10/23/2007 8:43 PM
Regardless, for the most part your list is serviceable, especially if you're looking at it from a "Themed" perspective.  Theme has little to do with special rules and a lot to do with composition.

Really?  Well what if I wanted my theme to be "slow and purposeful rubric marines led by sorcerers"?  The only sorcerer-led Slow & Purposeful rubric marine unit is the Thousand Sons Troops choice.  Sure I could take terminators and have them "count as" rubric terminators and just ignore the fact that they are neither Fearless nor Slow & Purposeful and their Aspiring Champion has no psychic powers.  But at that point I might as well just take vanilla CSMs as Troops and have them "count as" Thousand Sons, just for the sake of consistency.

Of course if I want to be fluffy and take 9-man squads then I can't take heavy weapons.  Well if I'm doing a "counts as" army anyway then why stick to the Chaos codex at all?  So maybe I'll just use the loyalist list and have the heavy weapon "count as" a psychic power.  It's not as if CSMs make appreciably better rubric marines than loyalist SMs, right?  And now that Tzeentch sorcerers have to take psychic tests they've lost the only advantage they had over SM Librarians.  With better psychic powers and better psychic defenses Librarians are more powerful psykers in every way.  So if Thousand Sons are supposed to have the most powerful psykers in the Astartes then it's actually fluffier to use the loyalist codex for them.  Ah screw it - I'll just use the Necron codex and "counts as".  Hell, the Deciever makes a fluffier Thousand Sons daemon prince than anything in Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

So, yeah I can think of at least 2 other codices that allow me to build a better Thousand Sons "counts as" army than the new CSM codex.  IMHO that's qualifies it as a failure.

Admittedly I've only read the new codex twice, but why can't you?  Lets go with Slaanesh because I was looking at that more.

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't the only difference the sonic weaponry? Both cult and non-cult get the +1 Init.

Prince with Mark and nice Slaanesh instakill demon weapon

Termies with Slaanesh mark

Troops-cult

FA-(sorry can't remember-old IW players don't know what FA is...)

Heavy support-the usual suspects.

How would an all cult list be substantially different?

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 10/24/2007 1:19 AM
Or you could have fielded Terminator Chosen who, while not very good value for the pts, were perfectly good representatives of generic Tzeentch Terminators.  But this begs the question - why couldn't we have both?  Just change the old MoT to grant Terminators +1 inv save instead of Sorcerer.  Why does that necessitate the removal of Rubric Terminators?

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 10/24/2007 1:19 AM

Really?  Well what if I wanted my theme to be "slow and purposeful rubric marines led by sorcerers"?  The only sorcerer-led Slow & Purposeful rubric marine unit is the Thousand Sons Troops choice.  Sure I could take terminators and have them "count as" rubric terminators and just ignore the fact that they are neither Fearless nor Slow & Purposeful and their Aspiring Champion has no psychic powers.  But at that point I might as well just take vanilla CSMs as Troops and have them "count as" Thousand Sons, just for the sake of consistency.

Of course if I want to be fluffy and take 9-man squads then I can't take heavy weapons.  Well if I'm doing a "counts as" army anyway then why stick to the Chaos codex at all?  So maybe I'll just use the loyalist list and have the heavy weapon "count as" a psychic power.  It's not as if CSMs make appreciably better rubric marines than loyalist SMs, right?  And now that Tzeentch sorcerers have to take psychic tests they've lost the only advantage they had over SM Librarians.  With better psychic powers and better psychic defenses Librarians are more powerful psykers in every way.  So if Thousand Sons are supposed to have the most powerful psykers in the Astartes then it's actually fluffier to use the loyalist codex for them.  Ah screw it - I'll just use the Necron codex and "counts as".  Hell, the Deciever makes a fluffier Thousand Sons daemon prince than anything in Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

So, yeah I can think of at least 2 other codices that allow me to build a better Thousand Sons "counts as" army than the new CSM codex.  IMHO that's qualifies it as a failure.

Direct response: Your posts long ago lost any semblance of reasoned argument and have degenerated into petty whining.  Stop it.

1) Learn to spell, and use proper grammar.  Put apostrophes in the proper places, and don't confuse the possesive your with the contraction you're, or the contraction they're with the possesive their or the adverb there.  A well-written post is easier to read, and might make you look less like a petulant 12-year-old.

2) I am being sarcastic because sarcasm is the appropriate response to someone who is taking himself  too seriously.  Your definition of a themed army seems to be merely 'one that has a matching paint scheme'.  This is silly.  There are many armies out there that are well-painted with matching uniforms and bases, but that does not mean those armies have a theme.   

Worse, you are ridiculing players who have a different definition, such as 'a list designed with a back-story in mind' , as in 'Inquisitorial Witch-Hunting Team with Commandeered Guard allies' or 'Daemon-world Chaos Renegade Pirates', and try to choose the units in their force to follow that theme.  What if my army was meant to represent the forces of a crusading, heretic Eccleisiarch, with companies drawn from a hundred worlds?   Even if it were well-painted, each model a gem, the overall look would be rag-tag and mismatched.  It would certainly look like a mess rather than an army, but that would be totally in keeping with my theme.

You are welcome to your narrow and petty definition, but if you insist on displaying your nonsensical viewpoint to the wider gaming community, don't expect your opinions to be treated with respect.  Especially don't use sarcasm yourself (and what is calling armies a circus, a freak show, but sarcasm?- and clever, amusing sarcasm at that) and then get huffy when some gets aimed back at you.  That is called being a hypocrite, and on dakka it tends to get you dogpiled and your ickle feelings hurt.

3) There is only one Fat Guy on the Simpsons.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 10/23/2007 3:53 PM

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 10/23/2007 2:39 PM

How is an army themed when they have Thousand Sons, Raptors, Obliterators, and a Greater Daemon of _____^* led by a pair of Slaaneshi Fzorglerors?  In fact what incentive do the rules give me not to have my Khorne army led by two Fzorgle Princes with the Mark of Slaanesh?  Not only is it perfectly legal, I don't even have to worry about losing my free champions anymore!

^* : Who cares?  THEY'RE ALL THE SAME!

So? You could do that before too you know, and nothing stopped you.

That was my point.  smart_alex was contrasting the old codex with the new one, saying that the old one encouraged "circus" builds.  My point was that the new one does the same thing, only moreso.  At least previously you had some in-game incentive to play a "pure" army.  But now?

Actually you couldn't have done the above list. You would have needed troops, those were all elites or fast. As well no raptors if led by a slaanesh marked lord. Just saying.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 10/23/2007 3:53 PM
I suspect that we'd here a lot of *female dog*ing still if we had "generic demons" that could be marked to give you:

+1T for Plaguebearers
+1I for Demonettes
+1A for Bloodletters
4+ Inv Save for Horrors

Each mark costs +2 Points per model.  Then they'd be different, but still mediocre.  Would you still be here complaining about it?

Yes, and the complaint would be the same.  There should be more differences between a Daemonette and a Bloodletter than a mere ±1I or ±1A.  However, that still would have been preferable to what we actually got.

Kinda sad when even the first 3rd ed codex had more distinction between daemon types.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 10/23/2007 3:53 PM
What I don't see as a failing is the little itty benefits or restrictions that the old rules placed on you for "theme", where as now the same "theme" can be replicated in many instances.

In the old codex Thousand Sons sucked, but I could still make a nice fluffy Thousand Sons army with rubric terminators and sorcerer lords and sorcerer chosen.  I can't do that anymore.  If I try to build a Thousand Sons army using the new codex I find that I run out of choices the moment I look outside of the Troops section of the army list.  Sure, I can field a "Tzeentch-themed" army with Thousand Sons squads, but if I can't field a Thousand Sons army.  It seems my "theme" has been significantly watered-down.

Putting effectiveness aside, the old codex contained 9 different fluffy army lists.  There were 4 different kinds of Death Guard squad (CSM, Chosen, Possessed, Havocs), 4 different kinds of Thousand Sons squad (CSM, Chosen, Possessed, Rubric Terminators), 4 different kinds of World Eaters squad (CSM, Chosen, Possessed, Bikers), and 5 different kinds of Emperor's Children squad (CSM, Chosen, Possessed, Bikers, Havocs).  Now there are 1 each.  And no, squads with an Icon are not the same as cult squads (Tzeentch terminators are neither sorcerers nor rubrics, Khorne bikers are not Fearless, Slaanesh havocs can't take sonic weapons, etc).  So when it comes to encouraging variation in purely fluffy armies the new codex is a failure.

The old codex contained a number of strong builds.  Black Legion, Word Bearers, Emperor's Children, Alpha Legion, and, of course, Iron Warriors could all build very competitive lists.  Now there is one strong build (Fzorgle).  So when it comes to encouraging variation in purely competitive armies the new codex is a failure.

As a longtime Chaos player I'm frustrated. I spent an unreasonable amount of money building a chaos army, and painted them as word bearers, and had a mixed army. Then the IA articles came and the army ceased to be an all powers force but rather an undivided list which used a lot of (very weak) daemons, so I played as undivided putting myu cult troops aside. The new book came out and I expanded my cult troops into another three armies, and picked up a huge number and variety of daemons (thankfully I play some fantasy). Now there are no more wordbearers and I'm back where I started with a single army. THe themes are collapsed because they all had specialty gear which doesn't exist, or used the now worthless daemons to pump them up. I have a good strongly bland chaos army where Tzeentch Slaanesh and Khorne will march side by side with undivided gunners in the rear. Sad.

On the other hand Black Legion armies got a whole lot more varied - Black Legion can take all sorts of marked non-cult squads.  This shouldn't be surprising considering the single army list in the codex is basically the Black Legion list.  The new codex could be considered a fairly successful Codex: Black Legion.  But as a Codex: Chaos Space Marines, the new codex is a dismal failure.

Really, I have three.

Klans? GONE.  "Just another paint job on my Orks".  Do you hear Ork players demanding that we get a "Codex: Kult of Speed" or "Codex: Goffs" because they are wildly different Ork klanz and suddenly it's going to be effective to take Ghazgull with lots of trukk mobs and Zaagstrukk? 

They have never been very different though. The chaos legions were very different. Now they are not.

No.  Why? Because now it looks like the rules are going to be good, they'll be fun to play, and the character of the army, is unchanged for the most part.  Their fluff, their models, the draw that so many people like about them is staying the same while the rules for the army are getting much better.  In fact they look like they're about to get a fair serving of the "Phil Kelly Nugget of Broken", and people are going nuts.

I wish I had a dollar for every time I read "I'd like to start Orks but their rules put me off" or "I'll start Orks when they get a new Codex".  Which basically means "Orks are cool but good god they suck, give them some decent rules and I'll model them up!"

That's why people are so excited about the new Orks. At least that's what it seems like to me, as someone who wasn't around when the "Shokk attack gun" was all the rage in 2nd Ed.

Really. Tell me what variation your seeing or hearing about, in good lists.

I'll tell you in order the units you are least likely to see.

Lesser deamons- Less said = better

Spawn- No one can convince me a slow and porpuseful model with three wounds and no armour is any good at all atr that price.

Possessed- 4 points less than a terminator for a random ability, Nope.

Dreadnaughts- Oh good, they kill thier own troops again. Just what I wanted another  random factor, in the crowded elites section...

Havocs- Relative to the other heavy support, why bother? Other choices are much better (Obis and vindicators).

Noise Marines (with guns)- As usual initiative is over valued on basic troopers. In particular on troops meant to be equiped with heavy weapons.

Bikers- Too expensive, More expensive then BA bikers who get a champion. In particular when cheapness of raptors is factored in.

Chaos marines- Requiring ten to get a heavy makes these guys the losers of the troops section. If you want a heavy in your troops use noise marines and only take a blast master = 140 points for a better heavy weapon at any rate.

Predators- almost good enough to make my not often list, but overpriced lascannons limit it's usefulness.

Units you will see

Fzorgle Princes-  Love em or hate they will be king.

Obliterators- staple of iron warriors list now in Heavy support. Still worth it.

Chosen with stupid numbers of special  weapons.

Terminators- cheap cheap terminators, just in time for new models to be released. If only they put that thought into the possessed.

All cult troops other then slaanesh with guns- The only veteran skills left in the army, relatively cheap.

Raptors- cheaper then assault marines same stats.

vindicators- the only tank that wins on the heavy support list.

Units that will pop up from time to time

Defiler- meh other heavys are better

Land raider- as above

Slaanesh without guns

Sorcerer- maybe the slaanesh version will be more common. Psyker rules make the tzeentch model a bit of a waste. 

Lord- Can be killed by any chump with a fist, only has a 3+ save, weapon malfunctions up to twice a game. not very good at all, but still not such a complete loser I'd put him in the rarely see list.

I ignored the special characters, as most are broken enough to make them worthy of use.

edit: To be fair, some people will use the units from the first list, and claim they are great. These however are, for the most part, the same people who believe striking scorpians are still the best assault unit in the eldar. They may still believe in Santa, as well .

I think the nay-sayers' argument is, in a nutshell, "I hate to wait". 

And who came blame them, given Games Workshop's track record?  There is no guarantee that the rumored codex daemonica will even address their concerns, let alone fix the perceived problems.

So stop being the voice of reason!

Not an optimal list.  d- at best.

Word Bearers - Fanatical religious nuts that love deamons. They can play just like before, take multiple units (at least 4) of the generic deamons, CSM in Rhinos, Bikers, GD, Deamon Prince, Lord and play the old deamon bomb. Can be an effective list if you use the amount of generic deamons to tie up squads for elite CC elements like Terminators, Possessed, or Chosen.

Please tell me how you can even suggest this idea. Do you play the game?  The new daemons aren't worth taking as filler. It's not even a shade on the dbomb. The fact that you suggest using possessed tells me how well you thought this through. It's a lsoing bet to take units meant to tie up other in cc. You need to take units that win cc. The lesser daemons don't. d- at best now from b+.

Iron Warriors - Less deamons more siege. Essentially it all comes down to their heavy support choices, max oblitorators, couple of vindicators and predators, Havocs. Any one of them would do. Combine that with the usual suspects like CSM in rhinos, chosen, Terminators etc. and you can still capture their style.

Since IW couldn't use daemons before I am confused. IW lost the least.

Night Lords - Scare tactics and raptors, oh my! Easily take three units of raptors, combine that with CSM in rhinos, Generic Deamons, Winged Deamon Princes, and you have a pretty decent list that is fast and can get to you quickly.

Again you suggest generic daemons. Again I ask do you play? The reason dbomb worked was daemons were strong enough to win, not hold. So you took enough units to mkae up for the inconvienent way they appeared. You over value random units obviously. C list

Emporer's Children - Multple units of Noise Marines, back by Deamon Princes, Armored Support, and generic deamons, plays them similar to before.

The daemonettes used to balance the weakness of the shooty marines. Lesser dameons don't. No Noise havos eliminates a staple since 2nd edition. C list (the only one of the cult troops to get a c list)

World Eaters - I was talking to a fried about this one, you could really do a crazy charge at you type army. Chaos Lords, Terminators, and Generic Deamons can pop in off of Berserkers in Rhinos, Bikers, and crazy charging Defilers.

Might be a good list, if your opponent doesn't do cc better then you (nids and Eldar for sure). Again you try to use generics. They aren't worth it. Solid b list as Nids and Eldar are so strong and common.

Thousand Sons - Multiple units of either mounted or walking Thousand Sons with durable Terminators, DP, Sorcerors, and Generic Deamons providing shooting and assault support, backed by Predators, Vindicators, etc.

Generic daemons don't shoot. Solid b list. Won't fight back well in c but tough.

Death Guard - Multiple Plague Marines back by Deamon Princes, GD, Generic Deamons, Defilers, Bikers, Predators, etc.

Ok list still a b-list.

There you go, a way to field 8 different competitive armies that match the theme of the Legion in question using the same list.

Which still shows up randomly. Bad.

Spawn- No one can convince me a slow and porpuseful model with three wounds and no armour is any good at all atr that price.

It's not that they are good on an individual basis. It's more that they are good when you take 15+ of them. I have seen the new Spawn Spam, and it is dangerous. There is simple not enough high rate of fire guns per the target saturation that you would see to take them all down, and you still have points to take a bunch nasty units to assault the enemy.

15+ eh? so 600 points worth. Nope.

Possessed- 4 points less than a terminator for a random ability, Nope.

The best use I have seen from them is riding in the cheaper Land Raider. They are cheaper than Terminators and you can cram more into a Land Raider. In that set-up there is really only one bad roll you can make for them and that is the scouts roll. But between, Feel no pain, Fleet, Rending, Power Weapons, all work well in that set-up. Plus, it is my opinion that 26 points for a marine with +1 attack, +1 toughness, and 5+ invulnerable save is still a decent deal if not the best. That statline is only marginally worst than a terminator one, and they are marginally cheaper. The random ability I see as icing on the proverbial cake.

Still not worth it to me, because the other choices are that much better.

Dreadnaughts- Oh good, they kill thier own troops again. Just what I wanted another random factor, in the crowded elites section...

They are one of the least effective choices in the codex, but can still find some use.

Not in a optimized list.

Havocs- Relative to the other heavy support, why bother? Other choices are much better (Obis and vindicators).

Because they can be more survivable than one model creatures that can be instakilled (oblits) and tanks that can die to one shot (any armored choice).

I disagree, but whatever. I'll give you this one without serious arguement.

Noise Marines (with guns)- As usual initiative is over valued on basic troopers. In particular on troops meant to be equiped with heavy weapons.

Don't understand your point, and Noise Marine unit would probably equip themselves with sonic weapons. The only reason to have the basic weapon option is for GW to cover themselves with a poorly thought out box set.

The gunned out choice is not worth it. Use thousand sons for more kills. I actually think the non gunned out option is the better use of points.

Bikers- Too expensive, More expensive then BA bikers who get a champion. In particular when cheapness of raptors is factored in.

Still can preform the same summoning support as in the old codex, and can be even improved with Icon,

You like lesser daemons though. Not heard of anyone off of warseer supporting them so.

Chaos marines- Requiring ten to get a heavy makes these guys the losers of the troops section. If you want a heavy in your troops use noise marines and only take a blast master = 140 points for a better heavy weapon at any rate.

They still have access to multiple specials and can fulfill a great assault roll in a rhino. Their new load out is better than true grit any day. Plus you can always play the MEQ hoard with them.

Use cult troops they are better.

Predators- almost good enough to make my not often list, but overpriced lascannons limit it's usefulness.

The cheap version is just as effective in new SM lists. If you plan on building a vehicles kill infantry, infantry kills vehicles army they are very useful.

I've corresponded with Jervis regarding LatD.  And from what I can gather, they will in no way, shape or form be represented in the Daemon book.  They view LatD as something that would deserve its own codex, but it sounds as though there's no plan for it in sight (meaning we have to keep reminding them that we're interested seeing it happen).

Moreover, the reliable sources on Warseer indicate that the daemon book won't be "allyable" with the CSM codex except in Apocalypse games.  It's a separate army list.

When you consider that Orks, Daemons, a new edition of 40K and maybe a "Planetstrike" supplement may be on the way for 2008, and DE, Necrons, BA, SW and others are still somewhere in the queue, things are looking fairly bleak for Chaos to get anything else in the next few years. 

If they come when needed. As it stands they arrive within  of an Icon bearer, only good if things work out. Have you played them? Do you even play chaos?  They won't be used in the power builds for the army.  For the record I have used daemons for two versions of the book. I'm not bothering with these ones. They are weaker versions of the daemons from the 3rd ed book. Not worth it to me.

He used the word comptetive. I did not. IW and Word Bearers dbomb were close to top tier.

The toughness of the book is not what my complaint. There is a good competetive build, it was figured out before the book was even in general release. Not three, four, five, six, seven, or eight.

edit to address content

That's what pts costs are for.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 10/24/2007 4:36 AM
Should I be rewarded for getting 10 Man squads for my Ultramarines? Hey I'm following the fluff! Shouldn't I be rewarded? 

Yes you should.  If Ultramarines are supposed to use 10-man squads but their rules make 6-man squads more effective than 10-man squads then those rules are a failure.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 10/24/2007 4:36 AM
All the old rules did was reward people for liking Slaanesh or Khorne, instead of Tzeench or Nurgle. 

Actually all the old rules did was compensate people for restricting their armies to a single god.  Pure cult armies not only used to lose access to all other Marks, all other daemons, and all other god-specific wargear, but they also lost access to unmarked units as well.  Even though the old Marks weren't quite balanced they were still balanced enough to make restricting yourself to a single Mark a disadvantage.  So the old codex gave you bonuses to compensate.

But now restricting yourself to a single Mark gets you nothing in return.  If taking a pure cult army puts you at a disadvantage, and the rules no longer even try to counterbalance that, then in effect the rules are discouraging you from taking pure cult armies.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 10/24/2007 4:36 AM
What you are ignoring is the fact that you can take Bikes or Raptors, which can represent 1KSons units that used to fill those roles, and the "AC" is the sorcerer commanding them, but takes too much concentration to control their automations that they can't use psychic powers.

I could take Bikes or Raptors using the old list.  Of course it wouldn't be a "pure Thousand Sons army" anymore, but I can't play a "pure Thousand Sons army" now either (since it no longer exists).  But wait, you say, now you can give them a Tzeentch Icon!  Well I can give a Tzeentch Icon to my CSMs too.  That doesn't make them Thousand Sons.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 10/24/2007 4:36 AM
You've got powerful sorcerers, they have access to powers that are much more potent or damaging than anything the SM libby can take save one broken power (FOTD).

Huh?  How are Tzeentch psychic powers more potent than Librarian ones?  Ignoring pts costs for now, and just focusing on raw power:

Force Weapon = Force Weapon

Fury of the Ancients > Bolt of Change, Doom Bolt, Wind of Chaos

Veil of Time > Warptime

Psychic Hood > no psychic defense whatsoever

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 10/24/2007 4:36 AM
Funny you should compare the sorcerers to a SM librarian who is considered to be too good for his points, as opposed to say a Dark Angels librarian, who pretty much blows.

Maybe I did that because the fluff doesn't state that Thousand Sons don't have more powerful psykers than Dark Angels - it states that they have more powerful psykers than all the other space marines.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 10/24/2007 4:36 AM
Your complaints about failings compared to Librarians or the fact that you can't auto-cast anymore are related to in-game performance compared to other armies, not so much in terms of fluff representation.

Uh, what?  So if guardsmen were all S4 then it would be perfectly fluffy for Orks to remain S3?  Yeah I guess comparisons with other armies don't matter if all I do is play other Thousand Sons.  But the minute I face a Librarian all of a sudden my in-game performance isn't really representing the fluff so well now is it?  Hell, I don't even need to look as far as Codex: Space Marines to find stronger psykers - there are stronger psykers right there in Codex: Chaos Space Marines!  Fzorgle!

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 10/24/2007 4:36 AM
Your examples of using other codex's for "counts-as" are just you being willfully oblivious.

How is that?  At least if I use the SM codex all my "psykers" (= heavy weapons marines) and "rubrics" (= bolter marines) will have consistent rules.  Just cause the rules say "Tzeentch" doesn't mean they are the most accurate representation of the Thousand Sons fluff.  Hell, Grey Knights make better Thousand Sons terminators than the ones in C:CSM. 

Besides, I shouldn't have to resort to "counts as" to field an army that has been one of the 5 main Chaos armies since The Lost and the Damned.  That I do is a solid indictment of the Chaos codex.

Actually, of all the cult armies Emperor's Children come away as the best represented under the new rules.  This is because the only difference between Noise Marines and CSM w/MoS is Fearless and the option to take sonic weapons.  Emperor's Children were never a "sonic weapons only" force so you can still build a traditional Emperor's Children army with the new codex, the only inconsistent feature being that your Troops are Fearless while your terminators et al are not.

Contrast this with World Eaters whose terminators have a lower Weapon Skill and lack Furious Charge or Death Guard where they have a higher Initiative and lack Feel No Pain.  And Tzeentch terminators are so different from Thousand Sons it really stretches "counts as" to the breaking point IMHO.

Posted By Toreador on 10/24/2007 9:23 AM
And I think he was talking about fluffy armies, not competitive. All those armies weren't exactly all top tier before.

So not only are they less representative of the fluff, but they're still not very competitive.  So what's the purpose of the new codex again?  I mean, besides pissing off Chaos players?

Posted By Toreador on 10/24/2007 9:23 AM
It took some time before people figured out the good build of Tyranids....

Well, the Tyranid codex is more flexible.  Also, FYT.

It doesn't do that.

It provides one highly competitve build and a large number of builds you can take to your local GW to lose games with. The lists you have suggested would be beat by a 12 year old with a good army.

The new codex doesn't make it impossible to play themed armies.  It just makes it a lot more difficult for no good reason.

That is of course assuming your theme isn't "Chaos Rainbow Coalition with Random Assortment of Units from a Dozen Different Renegade Chapters (Plus Generic Daemons) Hooray!"

Posted By Toreador on 10/24/2007 6:26 PM
Well, do you really need a list to make you field a fluffy army? Or does the powergamer in us all demand we make the ultra competitive rainbow warrior coalition? It's kind of like when the old USSR broke up. There were a lot of people that wanted and liked to be restricted. They need it. Now with nothing making you be fluffy, there is no reason to.

I do if I want to play a demon heavy army or LATD.

Restricted?

*Vet skills are gone 

*the full panopoly of wargear is gone

*the full panopoly of demon options are gone.

Its the new list that is substantially more restrictive.  It can be configured in a1st tier competitive way, but there's minimal in the new book that black legion couldn't do in the old.

This is the way I see it. In the previous codex, you had rules that allowed you to field an army that was devoted to Nurgle, Khorne, etc. In the new dex, you don't. Sure, you can field armies that are similar to the last codex's incarnations, but they aren't the same. Now matter how much painting and modeling your figures to look like Death Guard or World Eaters or whatever, the entire army isn't necessarilly made up of models that are Death Guard, WE, etc.

Let's say I like lemons. Then let's say every store in my area stops selling lemons, and there is no way for me to get lemons in my area. Someone tells me to just dye a lime yellow, and I'll have a good substitue for a lemon. But it's not a lemon. It's a lime colored to look like a lemon, and I want the real thing.