<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Need help with army decision"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/93.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Need help with army decision Ive had this idea floating in my head for a really long time now, but am not sure which army would best suite it rules wise. I used to play fantasy around 3rd ED but got out of it due to lack of time. Now im ready to start fresh again but as we all know, GW changes everything with each new edition. So first off here is my Idea for a theme.

300

http://www.crocodilegames.com/secure/items/WGO-301.jpg

http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/yhst-51356505839231_1974_0

Yes, its a Spartan Army. Im sure everyone is familier with the story of 300, but how cool would it be to do a army up of these guys converted. My only problem though, is im not sure which army ruleset to use. What I am asking, is that the community here (which has been very helpful in the past) Please post some suggestions and feedback. Any comments and thoughts would be awsome.

Thank you for your time and input.

-jp400-]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/205833/215338.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/205833/215338.page GMT Need help with army decision
jp400 wrote:Greetings.
Ive had this idea floating in my head for a really long time now, but am not sure which army would best suite it rules wise. I used to play fantasy around 3rd ED but got out of it due to lack of time. Now im ready to start fresh again but as we all know, GW changes everything with each new edition. So first off here is my Idea for a theme.

300

http://www.crocodilegames.com/secure/items/WGO-301.jpg

http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/yhst-51356505839231_1974_0

Yes, its a Spartan Army. Im sure everyone is familier with the story of 300, but how cool would it be to do a army up of these guys converted. My only problem though, is im not sure which army ruleset to use. What I am asking, is that the community here (which has been very helpful in the past) Please post some suggestions and feedback. Any comments and thoughts would be awsome.

Thank you for your time and input.

-jp400-


Use Orc rules. The spartans are supposed to be tough, have a good save, and you need 300 of them, use orcs.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/205833/215371.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/205833/215371.page GMT Re:Need help with army decision -Shaga's Screamin' Sword, Warboss Imbads Iron Gnasha's, Light Armor, Shield

24 Orc Boys-168
-Spear, Shield, Light Armor

25 Orc Boys-175
-Spear, Shield, Light Armor

25 Orc Boys-175
-Spear, Shield, Light Armor

25 Orc Boys-175
-Spear, Shield, Light Armor

25 Orc Boys-175
-Spear, Shield, Light Armor

25 Orc Boys-175
-Spear, Shield, Light Armor

25 Orc Boys-175
-Spear, Shield, Light Armor

25 Orc Boys-175
-Spear, Shield, Light Armor

25 Orc Boys-175
-Spear, Shield, Light Armor

25 Orc Boys-175
-Spear, Shield, Light Armor

25 Orc Boys-175
-Spear, Shield, Light Armor

25 Orc Boys-175
-Spear, Shield, Light Armor

300 Models exactly, all T4, All armed with shields and spears. If you don't want exactly 300 men, drop a squad and give everyone banners and musicians (this will make them a lot more effective). Problems with the list include that fact that there is no BSB, no magic, no shooting, no magic defense, and 12 big blocks of spearman can be unwieldy. Good things about the list is that's exactly what the 300 spartans had, 300 men, Shields, Light Armor(Believe it or not, they wore brass breastplates... no, they didn't run into battle naked so that women wouldn't mind sitting through 2 and a half hours of bloodshed), no banners, no musicians, no calvary, no shooting, and you've got enough blocks to fill up any whole inbetween two impassable terrain features you want. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/205833/215376.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/205833/215376.page GMT Re:Need help with army decision
For a "realistic" Spartan army, the Empire might work. Swordsmen are Hoplites with swords and spearmen can work as spearmen. DOW pikemen can also be used, but they would be later historically. Bowmen and hunstmen would be modelled as peltasts and archers. Cavalry could be present, but would be light and certainly not packing handguns.

High elves could work as well. Spearmen with ASF, archer rules for peltasts, Reavers with spears as Greek cav. Heck, even the bolt throwers would well represent artillery of the day. Just skip on the eagles, dragons, and heavy cav.

Orcs seem a bit odd as they have low I, L, and animosity (Spartans were extremely disciplined and trained as warriors since childhood). But good T seems okay.

How stuck are you on pure spearmen? The actual Spartans used a variety of forces including slave warriors (who were probably the first to bear the distinctive lambda heraldry as their equipment was state property). Are you looking closer at history (and different battles) or the movie?

I think High Elves seem to match the Spartan image the best. Fast, well lead, but still human strength and T. Leonidas works as a Prince.

Interestingly, O&G would seem to match the Persians better as they were an amalgam of different groups held together by the strength of the leader. Goblins would represent the poorly trained masses of archers and spears while Orcs fill in the cadre of seasoned vets. Maybe black Orcs as Immortals (heh, especially looking at the movie....). Chariots would be expected, especially for Xerxes, as would cav. A Giant could reflect an elephant (North African species often used in war were typically smaller than the Bull elephants you see today).

Remember, also, that all the Spartans at Thermopylae died, so losing frequently would be fluffy ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/205833/215432.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/205833/215432.page GMT Re:Need help with army decision Id like to have this army playable with a chance of winning. I was even considering swordsmen custom made. The models I pointed out would be the base model. The 1st like of the wargods has them actually in armour, while the 2nd link is a model line inspired by the rescent movie.. all are 28mm based.
Im looking more at Historically then movie. (Although the movie did give the insperation for the idea). Personally id rather have a smaller, tougher army then a hoard army. So although the orcs fit, I dont think they will work very well for what I need. From your discription Elfs might fit the bill. Empire would work, but like you said... they rely too much on gunpowder, same with dwarfs I think. (Am I wrong?)
lol.. so if I get wiped out to the man I can just say that my army did its job right... that I didnt lose that all went according to plan! ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/205833/215483.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/205833/215483.page GMT Re:Need help with army decision
The historical Spartans dominated much of the Ancient period due to their superior conditioning and discipline. At the core of this was hoplite training. Initially, Spartans seem to have fought as a somewhat chariot based infantry force without clearly defined (or lost to time) structure. Over time, however, they became increasingly militarized, relying on the heavy infantry of the period- a highly trained soldier wearing a cuirass, aspis shield, and spear. They fought in a tight formation with overlapping shields forming a shield wall of spears. Other states used similar tactics, but lacked Spartan conditioning and discipline.

However, the Spartans were far from invulnerable and would later suffer from the lack of adequate cavalry and missile support. Parthian cavalry tactics and combined arms as demonstrated by the Macedonians under Alexander were too much for the relatively immobile infantry blocks.

Historically, it would be perfectly acceptable to model more cav or missile troops as allies (especially for cav and archers; Spartans used few toxotes (archers) and peltasts compared to other Greek forces), auxilleries, or slaves (light infantry), however. Alternately, your army may represent an innovative Spartan general (relatively rare as the Spartans were quite conservative). Heavy cavalry would reflect Greek Macedon allies (Companions) while light cavalry could be native or from any number of allies, depending on time period. It is also possible that they are a small contingent of natives. Officers and elites did form cavalry units used primarily as bodyguards.

Interestingly, standard Spartan infantry formations will not work well in Warhammer.
From everything2.com
There were two known formations for the Spartan army. The first, described by Thucydidies, is based on units eight men deep. Four rows formed an enomotia, four enomotiai formed a pentekostis, four pentekosteis formed a lochos, and finally seven lochoi formed an army. Pentekosteis were led my pentekonter, and lochoi were led by a lochago. Thus, these units formed the following numbers:

* Row - 8 Men
* Enomotia - 4 Rows (32 Men)
* Pentekostis - 4 Enomotiai (128 Men)
* Lochos - 4 Pentekosteis (512 Men)
* Army - 4 Lochoi (2048 Men)

The second known formation, described by Xenophon, is based on units twelve men deep. Two rows formed an enomotia, two enomotiai formed a pentekostis, two pentekosteis formed a lochos, four lochois formed a mora, and finally six morae formed an army. Morae were led by a ptolemarch. Thus, these units formed the following numbers:

* Row - 12 Men
* Enomotia - 2 Rows (24 Men)
* Pentekostis - 2 Enomotiai (48 Men)
* Lochos - 2 Pentekosteis (96 Men)
* Mora - 4 Lochoi (384 Men)
* Army - 6 Morae (2304 Men)


The High Elves seem to be able to do a close enough emulation. Spearelves represent the core hoplites very well. Swordmasters would represent elder soldier and elite hoplites armed with long xiphon. The strength is from experience. White Lions might reflect the eldest benefactors, who performed civil duty maintaining order. Archers would be few as natives and maybe reflect peltasts armed with slings as well as bow using toxotes. Reavers serve as the predominate cav with Silver helms maybe reflecting nobility. The only issue is that the Greeks of this period used no barding. Still, they had the equivalent of heavy cavalry *for the period* and I could not take issue with Companions serving as Dragon Princes in terms of game function. Chariots are also doable, though they died out pretty early in Spartan history. Bolt throwers are suitable to reflect Greek artillery. Lion chariots, dragons, and giant eagles are straight out, unless you were trying to incorporate mythical elements (IE a sphinx as a giant eagle or griffon, etc). In this case, a lion chariot isn't too far off in light of Spartans claiming lineage by Hercules who defeated the Nemean Lion and wore its skin... Very close to the White Lion imagery, actually. Dragons are a bit tougher to justify, but even there exist Greek mythological counterparts.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/205833/215491.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/205833/215491.page GMT Re:Need help with army decision
General of the Empire-155
-Sword of Sigismund, Talisman of Protection, Full Plate Armor, Shield

Captain of the Empire-80
-Sword of Might, Full Plate Armor, Shield

Captain of the Empire-138
-Battle Standard Bearer, Griffon Banner, Full Plate Armor

26 Spearmen-240
-Musician, Standard Bearer
Detachment 1
-6 Swordsmen
Detachment 2
-6 Swordsmen

25 Spearmen-234
-Musician, Standard Bearer
Detachment 1
-6 Swordsmen
Detachment 2
-6 Swordsmen

25 Spearmen-234
-Musician, Standard Bearer
Detachment 1
-6 Swordsmen
Detachment 2
-6 Swordsmen

25 Spearmen-234
-Musician, Standard Bearer
Detachment 1
-6 Swordsmen
Detachment 2
-6 Swordsmen

25 Spearmen-234
-Musician, Standard Bearer
Detachment 1
-6 Swordsmen
Detachment 2
-6 Swordsmen

25 Spearmen-234
-Musician, Standard Bearer
Detachment 1
-6 Swordsmen
Detachment 2
-6 Swordsmen

25 Spearmen-234
-Musician, Standard Bearer
Detachment 1
-6 Swordsmen
Detachment 2
-6 Swordsmen

25 Spearmen-234
-Musician, Standard Bearer
Detachment 1
-6 Swordsmen
Detachment 2
-6 Swordsmen

People charge the swordsmen, the detachments countercharge.... pretty 300ish to me. Only kinda wierd thing is the full plate armor on the heroes, (Leonitus, his captain, and the bard) but you can always downgrade those. Overall it's decently effective.

Or there's always skaven....

Warlord-169
-Weeping Blade, Warpstone Amulet, Heavy Armor, Shield

Chieftan-124
-Desolate Blade, Heavy Armor, Battle Standard Bearer

29 Clanrats-189
-Spear, Light Armor, Shield

29 Clanrats-189
-Spear, Light Armor, Shield

30 Clanrats-195
-Spear, Light Armor, Shield

30 Clanrats-195
-Spear, Light Armor, Shield

30 Clanrats-195
-Spear, Light Armor, Shield

30 Clanrats-195
-Spear, Light Armor, Shield

30 Clanrats-195
-Spear, Light Armor, Shield

30 Clanrats-195
-Spear, Light Armor, Shield

15 Night Runners-105
-Extra Hand Weapon

15 Night Runners-105
-Extra Hand Weapon

15 Night Runners-105
-Extra Hand Weapon

15 Night Runners-105
-Extra Hand Weapon

The skaven have great leadership so long as they have 3 ranks, and are fast. Looking over the two, I'd probably take the empire though.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/205833/215554.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/205833/215554.page GMT Re:Need help with army decision LD 9, WS 5, and I 5. Take some wardancers for your special choices and youre good]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/205833/215558.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/205833/215558.page GMT Re:Need help with army decision From what it sounds like A Elf army either High or Wood is the way to go. So now the real question is... which list would better suit and which list is more playable.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/205833/215781.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/205833/215781.page GMT Re:Need help with army decision
http://www.asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=5393]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/205833/215924.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/205833/215924.page GMT Re:Need help with army decision
Soup_Nazi wrote:As Angron mentioned, Wood Elves would fit the theme great. Here is a link to a Hoplite army using the Wood Elves. You could modify the list to put all 300 in there, but thought I'd give you some more inspiration.

http://www.asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=5393


Wow Thats cool. lol. Dont know if Id throw in a block of guys that big however.... but it appears he did very well with that list. I also couldnt help but notice he didnt fight any seige units such as great cannons, wonder how well he would have held up then. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/205833/216121.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/205833/216121.page GMT Need help with army decision BSB. Riders threaten flanks and weaker units while a smaller EG block bearing a hero acts as a tie up unit.

Cannons would have limited impact unless a hero failed his Look Out roll. Riders should be on the cannons pretty quick. Heck, the archers might be able to pick the crews off! But it might be good for trimming down those blocks!

Basically, the weaknesses of the army are a reliance on characters (for stubbornness) and T3. The big block is a red herring- it should be tied up with disposables and redirected. The smaller block should be hit with fighty stuff, aiming at the hero to kill him ASAP and kill stubborn. Then the unit will quickly fold to flanking, etc.

The cav *must* be addressed. They are extremely fast (M9) and can hit pretty hard with good WS an S5. But a T3 and 5+ save won't hold up to massed shooting or magic.

Once the cav and 30 man unit are dealt with, the army is pretty much dead unless the 70 man unit can get into it with your army. If you have to deal with the 70 man unit, something with a good T or AS and plenty of attacks will mow through them. Ogres and the like shine here as they can lay down 17 S4 attacks per round and the WEs will struggle to hurt them. The highborn is kind of dangerous packing 4 GW attacks, but directing some hits on him should kill him quickly (hit on 4s, wound on 3s, 5+ save)- 2 ogres directing attacks should work well. Suicide character killers that do autohits are also great for taking the HB out (DE sorc with Web). Without the HB, immunity to terror disappears. Once the BSB goes down, so does the fear and MR and when they are both cleared stubborn vanishes.

Massed shooting also works as the unit is only T3 5+ save.

Magic that hits every model in the unit is DEVASTATING but hard to pull off thanks to MR.

Of course, Aaron is a great player, so pulling all of this off may be easier said than done!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/205833/218399.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/205833/218399.page GMT Need help with army decision http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/205833/220586.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/205833/220586.page GMT