http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/14.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net DA's so any help on my list would be welcome.

HQ
130 - Belial

205 - Sammael on Jetbike

Elite
120 - Scout Squad, 4 snipers, 1 missile launcher
195 - Venerable Dreadnought, drop pod

Troop
215 - Deathwing, 2 lightning claws, 2 thunder-hammers, 1 heavy flamer
300 - Deathwing, Assault Cannon, Banner(Belial Goes in here)
455 - Ravenwing Attack Squad, 6 bikes, attack bike(Multi Melta)
175 - 10 man Tactical, missile launcher
75 - Landspeeder Typhoon

Heavy
250 - Land-Raider Crusader
85 - Whirlwind

Point Total is 2025

Obviously i gotta cut my list down to 2000, but this is what I want to build around. Only played one game so far with the list and went to a draw with Chaos marines, Belial was able to do a lot of damage and I really liked fighting with my termies out of the crusader, also my Whirlwind took out about 3X its points value before it got destroyed. I'm used to playing Tyranids so outa habit I specialized my termie squads, but after my first game I don't think this is generally the way to go, i guess thats my first question, am I better off mixing up my CC termies with my shooters?

Also would I be best dropping my scout squad for maybe another dreadnought or a devastator squad maybe. This list doesn't have a lot of anti-tank punch with the exception of Sammael and my a couple multi-meltas. So if i could make room for a twin-linked lascannon dread or a devastator squad it might be a little more favourable.

Anyway, any advice is welcome

Cheers,]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/213503/316996.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/213503/316996.page GMT DA dreads are severely overcosted for their performance.

What is Belial armed with? if it's anything other than Lightning Claws, fix it

Scouts: Why?

Assault Deathwing Squad: Probably better with 3x LC, 1x TH/SS, 1xHF, or drop the TH entirely and give the HF guy a Chanfist. Also it should cost you 220, since the HF is 5 points.

Shooty DW Squad: Why is the banner giving +1 Attack in the shooting squad, not the assault squad?

Whirlwind: Ugh

Yank the Whirlwind and the Ven Dread, replace with another Raider. I'd even replace the 'shooty' DW squad with a second assault squad and stick it into Raider #2.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/213503/317061.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/213503/317061.page GMT
At the moment Belial has a power sword and stormbolter, I can see what you mean though with the Lightning claws, and will def give that some thought. Only had him that way because the terminator captain model only comes that way.

Scouts i dunno if I like them or dislike them, they are kinda useless against high leadership armies, but also I tend to play a lot of orcs and tau so pinning comes in handy a lot, still though I think i will get rid of em because I do have my whirlwind for pinning as well.

I put the banner in the shoot squad because they are the ones that are going to be assaulting outa the Raider. When they disembark that is a ton of shots coming outa the crusader and my termies, they are going to be assaulting so there is a lot of potential attacks there. Most units wont last a turn with that kinda fire power and attacks. It's not that I want the banner with that unit, but i felt that that certain unit was a best fit for Belial who I wanted to have full benefit of the banner. Generally also they are going to be in the open and if they don't have a ranged weapon to defend themselves they will be shooting practice once their assault is resolved.

I don't have a lot of shots, and only 2 small blast templates, so i went with Whirlwind because it's great for taking out regular troop choices and horde, and doesn't require line of sight. So far from what I've seen with ordanace weapons, that if they get 2 shots off, generally they have done their job. Also pinning comes in handy for my raider to get into position, and to let my deep strikers have some breathing room until they can move and assault.

Definetly would be nice to make room for another raider, im guessing you would recommend the regular version so i have a bit of anti tank punch?

Thanks for the advice so far, much appreciated.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/213503/317086.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/213503/317086.page GMT
I will say that I completely disagree with Numismancer on all but a few of his points.

Yeah, the scouts should probably go (and personally, I think the Tac squad should go, too - but I imagine you're including them for scoring purposes).

Belial w/ LCs = good. And yeah, if you take the Banner (which I don't necessarily think is worth the points) it should be with a choppy rather than a shooty squad...that being said...

IMHO, though, Deathwing armies don't get nearly enough firepower to be able to afford dedicated Assault Squads. So here's what I recommend as a loadout for all DW Squads: 1 Sgt w/ PW/SB, 1 CF/AC, 1 TLC, 2 PF/SB (or if you're really feeling choppy, make the 2nd PF/SB a TLC).

Dreads are a DW army's best friend. Even more so than Land Raiders as they're more flexible with what they can do. So, I don't think you should pull the Dread.

Similarly, I know a lot of people dislike Whirlwinds, but I've also seen a lot of DW armies since the new codex was released use either them or Vincdicators. I don't use them myself, but I don't think they're that bad and provide some much needed anti-horde in an army that desperately needs it.

Two other points I'll make for you to think about, though I won't make my recommendations for replacement - I'll leave that up to you:

1) I can see that you're trying to maximize your number of scoring units, and for a DW/RW army, it's bound to be low. But having both Sammael and Belial both in the army is pretty much a waste of points. I'd really recommend one or the other and lean that way as far as your units go. And I will say this for Sammael - with his mobility, he'll be great for contesting objectives at the last minute.

2) Typhoons - I love 'em conceptually, but because of the already low number of targets in an army like this, it'll get blown out of the sky pretty quickly.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/213503/317159.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/213503/317159.page GMT CC termies. I've been debating dropping them to get another terminator squad, or another dread with drop pod, for some much needed anti-vehicle firepower. I don't really have them their for scoring purposes because I already do have a lot of troops choices having both Belial and Sammael. My whirlwind was my best unit in my first game, so i'm definitely gonna stick with it till it prooves otherwise, its only 85 points. I've been thinking about dropping one of my HQ's, but if i do that it cuts my scoring units in half, though will probably open up enough room for another squad of ravenwing or deathwing, depending which way i go. Belial is a pretty cheap choice for an HQ though, so thats why I've stuck with 2, the termies with all those extra attacks are pretty nasty popping outa the crusader. The terminators and crusader seem to be a massive distraction, and my typhoon gets a lot of shots off because of that, and if it draws enough fire to let my crusader pick out its assault target, it's pretty much done its job.

If i were to drop the scouts and perhaps the tact squad, where do you think my points would be best spent. This army really could use a lascannon, so I was thinking either a dread or a devastator squad

Thanks
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/213503/317331.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/213503/317331.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/213503/317475.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/213503/317475.page GMT

HQ
130 - Belial
205 - Sammael on Jetbike

Elite
205 - Dreadnought, Twin linked Lascannon, missile launcher
145 - Venerable Dreadnought, assault cannon, dreadnought cc weapon

Troop
220 - Deathwing Terminators, 2X LC, 1 TH/SS, 1 HF/PF, 1 SB/PF
270 - Deathwing Terminators, 1X LC, 1X PS/PF(Sergeant), 1X TH/SS, 1 X SB/PF, 1x Assault Cannon/PF, Banner(Belial Goes in here)
295 - Ravenwing Attack Squad, 6 bikes, attack bike(Multi Melta), Banner
120 - Ravenwing Attack Squad, 3 bikes
75 - Landspeeder Typhoon

Heavy
250 - Land-Raider Crusader
85 - Whirlwind

Total = 2000

Dropped the scout squad and the tactical squad, added a twin linked las-cannon Dreadnought and 3 more attack bikes. I didn't have the points for a 10 man tactical with the extra dread and i didn't see the point of having a 5 man, instead added the 3 bikes.

Wanted to have 1 chain-fist in each termie squad, but i was 10 points over and it was the only spot i could trim it.

Removed the drop pod from the venerable dreadnought, im gonna need something on my side of the map to help my crusader get in position, and id prefer having the drop pod on the lascannon so he can shoot a vehicle in the rear on his first shot.

I'll give this list a go on the weekend and see how it does without the tactical squads, if i find i need em I'll have to do some more adjusting.

lemme know what you think.

Thanks]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/213503/317737.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/213503/317737.page GMT LRC, Dreads, and Termies should provide fire magnets, and the Typhoon and Sammael will be good for contesting endgame objectives. I look forward to hearing how it does!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/213503/317748.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/213503/317748.page GMT lol, and i didnt even get them into combat and my whirlwind got destroyed on last turn, but it definetly did its point value and then some in damage, including one shot where it took out 7 demonettes. Im liking the whirlwind for sure, im thinking of maybe dropping my extra 3 bikes and getting a vindicator perhaps, I do have lots of troop choices already, and that str 10 ordnance could be sick wicked and nasty.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/213503/320427.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/213503/320427.page GMT