http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/14.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net
Marneus Calgar with Armour of Antilochus - 265

2 ten man tactical squads w/flamer and plasma cannon - 400
Power fist sarges

2 ten man tactical squads w/flamer and lascannon - 410
Power weapon sarges

2 five man scout squads with heavy bolters - 270
Combi-flamer power weapon sarges and Torias Telion

6 man sterngaurd veteran squad - 150

2 Rhinos with extra armor - 100

1 drop pod with deathwind missle launcher - 55

1 Razorback with twin linked assault cannon, extra armor and a hunter killer - 100


1750 Exactly with fifty scoring units able to pass or fail any morale test at will. I have mobility with the Rhinos, razorback, and the pod and I pack a punch with 10 template weapons. What would I be weak against?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/220837/416976.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/220837/416976.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/220837/417193.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/220837/417193.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/220837/417201.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/220837/417201.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/220837/417210.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/220837/417210.page GMT
2. Are we limited by what figures you have listed here?

3. Skip Marneus, take two Librarians with Infinity Gate, now you have mobility. Give combi meltas to the Sternguard. Now you have anti tank firepower.

4. Go to two Sternguard squads and two Drop Pods if you can't go to four that is!

5. See what you have left after these changes and then trade to get a Landraider, or consider adding an Inquisitor ally with a mystic and 3 heavy bolter servitors-now you can shoot at deep strikers......or, you have a Landraider, which is a real problem for some armies.

6. Ditch the entire list and play two Landraiders, two tricked out assault squads and spend whatever is left on troops.

There are at least 13 potentially nasty Space Marine builds. See my reply to CSM vs. Space marines under tactical advice.

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The other approach to designing a list is to try to present the enemy with a difficult tactical problem. This could fail, epic style, if someone has specifically designed a list against your idea . But, this is unlikely. Examples of this would be Daemons which Deep Strike. They present the problem of invulnerable saves/multiwound assault models. Orks can present either a gun line or a massive mobile assault army, or a mechanized high strength assault force, or something in between. Tyranids can go massive pie plate, or gene stealer/guant horde.

It helps my tactical play when I design a list this way because it usually has a coherent plan built into the list. In contrast, the other 'reactive' type of list often requires me to a. remember what my specific counter X was to army or unit Y, and also b. the tactical acumen to actually get each unit against its ideal opponent.

I am gently saying that your army seems to have a 'balanced' mix of rather ordinary troops but is lacking in troop types that would put pressure on the enemy. You've got Rhinos to put some troops forward to assault, but they are backed by ordinary marines rather than Devastator squads (ok the scouts do provide some long range fire support). The presumed assault squads, the marines with flamers also have a las-cannon. So, are they really going to advance in the Rhinos and assault? If you plan on using this as an assault force, maybe they should be assault marines? Maybe they should be VAnguard vets and forget the Sternguard?

A common misconception of the game is that you should build an army with lots of troops to seize objectives. Statistically, most games are not about seizing alot of objectives. Marines can break up into combat squads, so this should rarely be a problem. There are many rock hard units which can contest objectives.

So, I think that we need to hear your plan. Were you thinking of just moving a squad near each objective and then holding on with bolter fire and 3+ saves? Did you think you could assault a single enemy objective with what you have while still holding your own? Do you have enough firepower to stop some of the stronger hand to hand armies (blood Angels, Tyranids).

Yes, what I'm proposing is min-maxing the army, making cheese and knowing what to do with it. I just don't think an army of ordinay marine squads, even with scouts is going to stand up in combat....

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Assuming you have to work with what you have listed...

I really would look at a different commander than Marneus. Play at 2500? Maybe but he is representing 1/7 of your points.
Lose the extra armor and the HK missile. That saves you 55 points.
From your tactical builds, flam/las and flam/plas it looks like you are committed to combat squading them.
5-man scouts are asking for death. In KP games you will get them killed esp with combi=flamer/PW sarges.
If you are going to play drop pods... 1 will get their squad killed. Dropping 2 will be a pest. A third might do the charm.

Seeing you aren't using your heavy slots...

How about this as a core...

1 Devastator: 10man 4 hvybolter with Razorback w TL Las. 295
1 Assault: 10-man Sgt w PF, 2 w Flamer. Droppod w Launcher 290
3 Tacticals: 10man Sgt w PF, flamer, Las with Razorback w TL Hvy Bolter 735
1 Sternguard: 10-man sgt w PF, all w combi/melta or flamer in Drop pod w Launcher 380
1 Librarian (goes with the guard) 100
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/220837/417407.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/220837/417407.page GMT lose the flamers for some plasma.

The other is you are lacking in true AT. What you going to do with a landraider? For that matter what if they play 2?

It takes an average of 3 pens to get a kill on one with a lascannon. So .... seeing it takes 6 hits to get a pen. We are
talking 18 hits to get a pen on 14 armor... that is 24 lascannon shots.

A multi-melta gives up range but get it to 12" and we are talking over half your hits are pens and seeing you get the +1 on pens, we are talking 3 shots at 12" is 2 hits and half of those will kill it. With the +1 on the chart a MM can kill even with a glance so you have that in your favor too.

Meltas can move but you have to get within 6".

Multi-melta up those sternguard and maybe switch out half those tactical flamers for meltas and lose the tactical lascannons for multi-meltas.

Save some of the points on Marneus and go generic. The auto pass is all you are gaining as combat tactics lets you fail any test you want. That is quite a premium over a generic chapter master for one ability and two nice power fists.

I would keep telion and make that one big squad of scouts with cloaks and sniper rifles. That costs you 230 points... if you add one heavy bolter.

With no heavies in your list, think about saving some points on those tacticals and going with a nice devastator unit with ML. Not too pricey but good all purpose weapon.
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