Mahu wrote:There is one question that form the heart of this argument:

Is Lash a "shooting psychic power" as defined by the rules on Page 50?

One argument says Yes! because it takes place "instead of firing a weapon". That solves the issue that created this thread but leads to other complications. For example, if it is a psychic shooting attack, does it need to roll to hit? Does he have to charge the unit he Lashes? Etc. Etc.

One argument says No! Just because the power takes the place of a weapon, does not immediately classify it as a weapon itself. It's like saying that instead of firing a cannon, to instead eat this pie. Just because you are making a substitution does not suddenly turn a Pie into a Canon. This argument says that Lash simply follows the rules for Lash as stated, nothing more, nothing less. If Lash isn't a "shooting psychic power" then there is no restriction stopping a Slaneesh Sorceror from using it in a vehicle that has move over 6".

Nurglitch wrote:On p.88 of Codex: Chaos Space Marines it says of both Lash of Submission and Doombolt:

"A psyker may use this psychic power in the Shooting phase instead of using another ranged weapon."

"Doombolt may be used in the model's Shooting phase instead of using another ranged weapon."

On p.50 of the Rulebook it says of Psychic Shooting Attacks:

"Using a psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon (an assault weapon, unless specified otherwise). So, for example, the psyker must be able to see his target unit, cannot be locked in combat, or must not have run in the Shooting phase if he wishes to use a psychic shooting attack."

So the Lash of Submission is a psychic shooting attack, and is limited in the ways specified in the rulebook.

So, the argument stems from the second quote found on Pg. 50. In which using a "psychic shooting attack" COUNTS as firing a ranged weapon. Ergo, it can be easily interpreted that any power that is used 'instead' of shooting is an attack 'counts' as firing a ranged weapon.

Hardly any, but this is because it is indicated by a weapon stateline on the power just like doombolt has.

I do not see why the burden of proof would be on those arguing that it isn't a shooting attack. It has nothing in common with shooting powers other than that it is used in the shooting phase, has range and needs LOS

1) it is used in shooting phase
2) it is used instead of shooting
3) uses all the basics rules that are required for shooting (line of sight, range) don't know how it has 'nothing' in common

Psychic Powers, p.88, Codex: Chaos Space Marines wrote:A psyker may only attempt to use one psychic power per turn. The only exception to this is a model with the Mark of Tzeentch, which can attempt to use up to two psychic powers per player turn (but not two powers that both count as firing a weapon, as models can only fire one weapon per Shooting phase).

Rulebook page 66 wrote:FIRE POINTS
A transport vehicle may have a number of fire points
defined in its entry. A fire point is a hatch or gun slit
from which one or more passengers inside the vehicle
can fire (or use a psychic power).
Unless specified differently in the vehicle’s entry, a
single passenger may fire out of a fire point and the
other transported models may not fire. Ranges and line
of sight are measured from the fire point itself.
Models firing from a vehicle count as moving if the
vehicle moves, and may not fire at all if the vehicle
moved at Cruising speed that turn.

Nurglitch wrote:

Line 6 as line 5.

Nurglitch wrote:

Line 7 follows from lines 5 and 6, connecting the first two premises together in a form that clearly satisfies the antecedent of the third premise.

The conclusion, that the Lash of Submission is a Psychic Shooting Attack, follows from Premise 3 and line 7 via the same triviality that licensed us to be completely certain 5 & 6 followed from earlier lines.