<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "what daemons do well again!?!?!!"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/69.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net what daemons do well again!?!?!! gt. How much longer is it going to take for people to see that the army is competitive and playable at a high level. Take note, Daemons are here to stay.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/447255.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/447255.page GMT Re:what daemons do well again!?!?!! Grey Knights ftw. I nearly made my friend fight me the other day haha.
No corruption shall blemish our Galaxy, no Immaterial Fiend shall be spared, No Malevont Spirit will oppose us, no Creation of Sin shall survive.
please do encourage Daemons they are amazing! haha]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/450594.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/450594.page GMT Re:what daemons do well again!?!?!! Sun Tzu
"The Art of War"
(from SMAC)
(with Without Number vs. Grey Knights for the tie)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/450623.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/450623.page GMT Re:what daemons do well again!?!?!!
word...

Somnicide and I have been pretty much screaming at the top of our lungs putting up bateps and breaking down games and unit by unit analysis on demons for months. There has always been a camp on the net, that actually played, and didn't just sit on a couch and theory out games, that saw demons for what they were.

After vegas best general, and like 3 or 4 demons on the top 8 tables for game 5, we got a little bit of high ground. After Chicago, with another very strong demon performance (albeit with a low turnout at the tourney) We gained a little bit more...

Now the results for both Ard boys and GT baltimore come in with demons winning/putting up strong battle points? It's really over for the naysayers... The "need to play with 5th edition lists to beat them" or the "too random to be a serious contender", "only good at beating up on space marines" "don't have enough anti-tank" can now be universally answered with... "scoreboard"

No they don't win 100% of their games, no they aren't as point and click friendly as orks, no they aren't as matchup consistent as chaos space marines... But they've got the speed/hitting power/survivability to be considered a TOP tier list. And anyone who disagrees is arguing against results, not opinions.

I'm pretty sure you've been in on a lot of these "demons suck" internet battles Tortuga, doesn't it feel good now that the dust is about to settle on such a frustrating topic? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/450629.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/450629.page GMT what daemons do well again!?!?!!
Many demon players already had a smatteering of demons from fantasy or 40k. They added up their points and put them on the table. No support for each other, no evaluation of what their role in the battle would be ... just here's my 1500 points of randomly arriving random demon untis. This is the kind of thing that led to the dismissive behavior of: You put half your units down I use my whole army to shoot it off the board. Rinse repeat. Also, some of the better models like bloodcrushers are expensive and it took a little while for people to consider alternatives and /or afford the models.

Now some time has passed and people have begun buying the codex, reading it, looking at the options and saying "hmmm fateweaver supporting bloodcrushers ... I think this could be a good combo... " (and other thoughts like that) they are going out and buying the models based on their plan and putting them on the table with the knowledge of how they interact and what they are going to do with them.

Once you play against a good demon list you won't be sitting in the nay camp anymore. You may not think they are the best army ever, but you will respect them more and see that they can work competitivly. They can still let you down due to die rolls a little more than an army you have full control over, but that is more of a play preference issue.

Meph]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/450660.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/450660.page GMT Re:what daemons do well again!?!?!! Icon + deep strike = your monstrous creatures are everywhere at once.
It's pretty, so so prehteh
but then again, I'm a fan of the scalpel.
I wonder when Gift + Hit & Run will become popular... ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/450671.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/450671.page GMT what daemons do well again!?!?!! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/451480.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/451480.page GMT what daemons do well again!?!?!! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/452238.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/452238.page GMT Re:what daemons do well again!?!?!!
also during dawn of war anything that walks onto the table is NOT in reserve (look in the rule book under dawn of war scenario)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/452361.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/452361.page GMT what daemons do well again!?!?!!
If you are allowed to deploy according to mission rules instead of the demon book, then yes

Then again that was only one of the top showings and it was a one off galdiator torunament. sadly it will come up anytime someone says daemons do well and all the other evidence that it does fine in a normal tournament gets ignored.

At the same time, drop pod space marines did great at first, then they dropped off the top tier list. We shall if daemons run the same course or not.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/452390.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/452390.page GMT what daemons do well again!?!?!! GWs.

But it was obvious from my initial look that they're not bad, as long as you're not playing mono god. Bloodcrushers and flamers are awesome, plague bearers are awesome, DPs and Soulgrinders are awesome. The weak link is FA, didn't see much worth taking in there.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/452530.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/452530.page GMT what daemons do well again!?!?!!
Da Boss wrote:The weak link is FA, didn't see much worth taking in there.


True, but then, for almost every 40k book out there, fast attack is terrible.

With the exception of a couple books that were written in 3rd edition, fast attack has been the suckers choice for about 2 years for all armies.

Good rule of thumb, stick with elites and heavy support, with just enough troops to get by... ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/454956.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/454956.page GMT what daemons do well again!?!?!! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/455069.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/455069.page GMT Re:what daemons do well again!?!?!!

in the daemon army I actually don't like the heavy support section at all, if ever there was a weak section in that book it's there]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/455071.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/455071.page GMT what daemons do well again!?!?!!
How do you use your screamers? I have tried large units and small ones and they always break my heart. The inability to run and spread out when they show up, the fact that in doing their supposed job (killing vehicles) they usually need 6s to hit with a single attack each.

I have really tried to make them work, but I guess they just don't mesh with my style.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/455078.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/455078.page GMT what daemons do well again!?!?!!
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/455103.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/455103.page GMT Re:what daemons do well again!?!?!!
Tortuga932 wrote:umm you do realize screamers are awesome, and seekers can be very good, assault marines are good, everybody used tornadoes until 5th came out, hellhounds are abundant, warpspiders are used, pathfinders in a tau army, grey knight teleport squads, raveners see much use in nids, seraphim for the sisters are widely used. so im confused why you think fast attack doesn't get used?


in the daemon army I actually don't like the heavy support section at all, if ever there was a weak section in that book it's there


"umm"

screamers are beyond terrible....

seekers are decent. but not as good as fiends. Seekers get taken once my 3 elites and 3 heavies are burned. or if I'm playing for fun.

assault marines are NOT good.

everybody used tornados until 5th came out? Well 5th is still out right?

Hellhounds and necron destroyers were the two exceptions that i clearly made. 3rd edition codecies. Will you see hellhounds in anyones list when they can take 9 russes? Nope.

warp spiders are NOT used in tourney armies.

pathfinders are not used in the top builds. people get markerlights from fire warriors and stealth teams nowadays. Hammerheads broadsides and crisis suits have been and will always be better spent points.

Grey Knight teleport squads? You've got to be kidding me!

singleton raveners went out when kill points came in. Another 5th ed. change.

Seraphim are not used in top builds... you either see 3x exorcist with chimera/immolator support with shooty inquisitors, or you see immolator spam.


Just because people use fast attack choices at a game store does not mean they are "used by the pros". The combination of kill points and troop only scoring just sent most all fast attack back to the figure case. When you play 2500 point games, fast attack becomes an acceptable investment. Since you'll likely blow out your elites and heavy support.

But at smaller games like 1750, the way elites combine great offensive capabilities with excellent survivability throughout every book, coupled with heavy supports access to large blast markers, and/or hard edged survivability, means that flimsy stuff that isn't hitting any harder than an elites choice and isn't scoring just isn't going to make the cut.


And heavy support in a demon army is no good? Come on now!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/455800.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/455800.page GMT Re:what daemons do well again!?!?!!
Tortuga932 wrote:umm you do realize screamers are awesome, and seekers can be very good, assault marines are good, everybody used tornadoes until 5th came out, hellhounds are abundant, warpspiders are used, pathfinders in a tau army, grey knight teleport squads, raveners see much use in nids, seraphim for the sisters are widely used. so im confused why you think fast attack doesn't get used?


in the daemon army I actually don't like the heavy support section at all, if ever there was a weak section in that book it's there


hehe screamers are expensive flying melta bombs who suck at everything but dealing with non-weaponskill Vehicles...

seekers are decent... but not as good as just taking daemonettes who are cheaper/scoring and do basically the same thing with one less attack....

hmm AND the seekers have rending which can take down armor just as well as "warp jaws"


I do agree that hell hounds are good and lots of sister players use seraphim... I have to go ahead and disagree with greyknight teleport squads tho as... just why!? 275pts base for 10 stormbolters when you DS in? then get shot to pieces by template weapons as you are bunched up? You're much better off being spread out.


]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/455856.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/455856.page GMT Re:what daemons do well again!?!?!!
Shep wrote:
Seraphim are not used in top builds... you either see 3x exorcist with chimera/immolator support with shooty inquisitors, or you see immolator spam.


I agree with you. But I was table 2 last round at the Baltimore GT with a "non top" list. No seraphim mind you... but I also didn't have Chimeras or immolators. But you did indeed see 3 exorcists if you looked at my list

Seraphim are still good... but not at 1750 pts or pretty much anything below 2000pts now with 5th ed. OVER 2000pts the Seraphim can fill a very much needed role of "tie up the other guy" for a turn or 2 while you position yourself to wipe out his harder stuff with your shooting.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/455864.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/455864.page GMT what daemons do well again!?!?!!
And Screamers have been relegated to my display shelf. :(

9 Screamers = 135 points
1 Soul Grinder = 135 points.

I know what I'm taking. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/455870.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/455870.page GMT Re:what daemons do well again!?!?!! Scarabs are awesome (with disruptor fields).
There is nothing like neutering a land raider with 96 points of un-tank-shock-able hover-bugs

- hover-bugs are hover ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/455872.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/455872.page GMT Re:what daemons do well again!?!?!!
frgsinwntr wrote:

I do agree that hell hounds are good and lots of sister players use seraphim... I have to go ahead and disagree with greyknight teleport squads tho as... just why!? 275pts base for 10 stormbolters when you DS in? then get shot to pieces by template weapons as you are bunched up? You're much better off being spread out.




Grey Knight FA units are 5 man 2xIncinerator...only build. 170pts, not that it matters....they still suck.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/455881.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/455881.page GMT what daemons do well again!?!?!!
I can remember at least one thread where you were about the only one coming to my defense ;-)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/455884.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/455884.page GMT what daemons do well again!?!?!! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/455886.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/455886.page GMT what daemons do well again!?!?!!
phiasco wrote:i still haven't lost to daemons... in 7-8 games... personally.


A winner is you...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/455898.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/455898.page GMT Re:what daemons do well again!?!?!!
frgsinwntr wrote:
Shep wrote:
Seraphim are not used in top builds... you either see 3x exorcist with chimera/immolator support with shooty inquisitors, or you see immolator spam.


I agree with you. But I was table 2 last round at the Baltimore GT with a "non top" list. No seraphim mind you... but I also didn't have Chimeras or immolators. But you did indeed see 3 exorcists if you looked at my list

Seraphim are still good... but not at 1750 pts or pretty much anything below 2000pts now with 5th ed. OVER 2000pts the Seraphim can fill a very much needed role of "tie up the other guy" for a turn or 2 while you position yourself to wipe out his harder stuff with your shooting.



Well said... I'm interested in your list... can you PM it to me or direct me to a post of it?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/455901.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/455901.page GMT Re:what daemons do well again!?!?!!
Tortuga932 wrote:umm you do realize screamers are awesome, and seekers can be very good, assault marines are good, everybody used tornadoes until 5th came out, hellhounds are abundant, warpspiders are used, pathfinders in a tau army, grey knight teleport squads, raveners see much use in nids, seraphim for the sisters are widely used. so im confused why you think fast attack doesn't get used?


in the daemon army I actually don't like the heavy support section at all, if ever there was a weak section in that book it's there


Heh heh, screamers are awful guy. Oh, 6s to hit with 1 attack (When they cannot multirole) = fail.

The Heavy is the second best section of the Demon dex...with first being elites. I only call Elites first, as almost every choice there is a good one...with my order being Crushers--Flamers--Fiends--Beasts (Lets play the Sesame Street and see which one of those doesn't belong there..) ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/455935.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/455935.page GMT what daemons do well again!?!?!!
Shep wrote:
phiasco wrote:i still haven't lost to daemons... in 7-8 games... personally.


A winner is you...



only against daemons is seems...

and space wolves.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/455944.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/455944.page GMT Re:what daemons do well again!?!?!!
The troops are far and away the best option in the book
elites are also very good
fast attack is also good
hq is also good
heavy is pretty bad


now the basis for the heavy being bad.

first we have to ask what the heavy support units do

daemon prince- this guy does close combat. at most in close combat he will kill 6 models not too shabby right? but for the same points I can get between 10 and 15 bloodletters, and at best they can kill 30-45 guys. Oh and they're a scoring unit. A daemon prince also has 4 wounds a unit of bloodletters has 10-15. So in terms of close combat there are units which far outstrip survivability, and combat killiness. Now in terms of shooting you have the option for bolt of tzeentch, which is the worst shooting attack in the daemon book. Daemonic gaze, and breath of chaos. I'd rather take flamers to get breath since you get one breath for every guy and for equal points you can get 3-5 flamers. If you are taking a daemon prince for daemonic gaze. that is a big mistake, yes he hits on 2's but if you're spending all those points to get three shots to kill infantry, you have a problem since almost everything in the daemon book can kill infantry better than the 3 shots a turn that gets you, not even taking into account cover saves. and for the points i'd rather bring horrors since you get way way more shots to try and shoot things dead. tank killing a daemon prince gets str plus 2d6 for tank busting now against anything other than a land raider, you know what does better? anything else. since you swing on rear armour, bloodletters, daemonettes, bloodcrushers, and especially a bloodthirster all kill tanks way better than a daemon prince, because of the number of attacks, survivability of a big unit. and if you're complaining about screamers needing 6's to hit, well then guess what a daemon prince does no better, and weight of dice is what will kill those tanks then. Against a land raider there are also far better options to bring than a daemon prince. A bloodthirster is the best option hands down to kill it since he has str 8/9 plus 2d6, a soul grinder is also useful here, and screamers hit a land raider just as easily as a daemon prince, however they have more dice to throw to try and hit since you get around 10 for the same points.

in conclusion

for close combat there are better things than a daemon prince
for shooting there are better things than a daemon prince
for tank busting there are better things than a daemon prince

as for a soul grinder

all of the same arguments for close combat apply above so the soul grinder looses out on the close combat scale, however it is funny when grey knights get into combat with a grinder.
as for shooting i do like the battle cannon shot. the tongue shot is almost worthless, if you're relying on a single str 10 shot to kill a tank that hits on a 4 i think you have some problems
as for tank busting I actually like the soul grinder, since he can deal with monoliths better than anything in the list, and he can hurt land raiders

the reason I don't like the soul grinder is that it's a vehicle, a single melta gun shot or rail cannon or what have you destroy's him, If you can kill a predator you can kill a grinder. So he has some severe issues of survivability which is why i don't like him

so the reason you bring a soulgrinder is because you want a pie plate and to kill tanks right? since close combat i'd rather have stuff that murders in close combat much more efficiently and effectively. Well against a tank the screamers actually have more dice to roll and have a better chance of killing a tank since they have meltabombs. so I would actually prefer a unit of 10 screames to a soulgrinder since you have a soul grinder in the army to kill tanks.


Now all of this is predicated on a few simple facts in the daemon army.

1. You need units to kill infantry and to kill tanks in any given army
2. the units in a daemon army can kill infantry and tanks with equal success, 15 bloodletters kill a tank and an infantry unit just as well
3. the only things you have to account for are land raiders (since their rear armour is 14) to that end you need to bring a unit that can kill a land raider, and for the points and survivability and effectiveness, the bloodthirster, and screamers are the best options, for amount of dice used, success when you hit, manueverability, and survivability. A soul grinder can do it but is outstriped in ability by the thirster and screamers. And a daemon prince is outclassed in the capabilities it has compared to other units.

I'm not in any way saying that a soulgrinder is bad, there are just other units that do the job it's there for with better success.
I am saying that a daemon prince is a terrible buy since everything it does it does not nearly as well as other units

To that end in fast attack seekers are awesome they have a giant range, and lots and lots of attacks at I6 with both grenades, and rending, I feel that the furies are worthless and there are better buys than them, the hounds are interesting but I think I'd rather take a troop unit than them.

So in fast attack there are 2 units that are good and in heavy there is one unit that is situationally good. my math says that fast is better than heavy here.

In pretty much every circumstance I'd rather have a bloodthirster than a soulgrinder, and the versatility of units like the masque, epidemeus, a keeper, and other hq choices, make me confident that the hq section is better than the heavy. (although I hate him others seem to have a man crush on him)

As for troops this here is the best section in the book hands down, the things these units can do makes me sick sometimes, and then on top of that they are scoring units too!!!!

In the elites, everyone knows how awesome bloodcrushers are, and flamers are a pretty awesome unit here too. I haven't used fiends of slaneesh yet, but I do see that they have some pretty awesome troop killing potential, but i am on the fence about them, and beast of nurgle = aweful so in here we have 2 maybe 3 units that are good and in heavy we have 1. so by my math the elites are better than the heavy

and before anybody says (oh but the heavy section only has 2 choices thats not fair) the lack of choice in a section also is what makes it weaker than the others too.


as for other stuff assault marines not good?!!?!? are you crazy a unit of assault marines backed up by a chaplain is one of the hardest hitting units out there. and I referenced tornadoes until 5th came out because it was mention that fast attack in the past 2 years was no good.

and you will see hell hounds in peoples list when they can take piles of russes, because a hellhound will eliminate a cover save and battle cannons won't.

now all of this is opinion and you are entitled to your own opinion since everybody plays differently but to make a blanket statement like "fast attack is bad" is both ignorant and uninformed, since there are many different ways of playing other than what I think and what others think. after all you may use daemon princes with great success, and that's awesome.

lots and lots more information can be found in the other daemon thread in the tactics section "are daemons competitive or a just for fun army" I go on quite a typing rampage there and you can find lots more info there that I didn't feel like retyping here]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/456120.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/456120.page GMT what daemons do well again!?!?!!
I see your point, but bloodletters are worthless against dreadnoughts and wraithlords (unless they get the charge and then they might be okay if you roll 6s.)

I think that daemons are able to deal with infantry quite easily these days - a bunch of vehicles on the other hand can give them fits. I think that is where the daemon prince and the soulgrinder have their value.

It could just be that I play against mech-eldar more than most people, but basic infantry just doesn't cut it against them - you need something that is resilient (especially vs. str6) and that can threaten vehicles that move and shoot.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/456122.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/456122.page GMT what daemons do well again!?!?!! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/456136.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/456136.page GMT Re:what daemons do well again!?!?!!
I'm not discounting the av13 just that av 13 doesn't stand up to melta guns, ignoring shaken and stunned doesn't do much when they have a 66% chance to neutralize you (a 3 immobilizes you and a 4+ kills you with melta) a dedicated anti tank unit will probably get rid of this guy since he's the only tank you have

a daemon prince and soulgrinder at best have 11 attacks against a vehicle, assuming you need 6's to hit if it moved fast enough i'd rather have 2 units of bloodletters or daemonettes, and throw around 80- 90 dice to hit a vehicle, hell i'd rather throw around 80-90 dice on any vehicle anytime.

the exception being the land raider but there are better things than a daemon prince and soulgrinder to kill them.

I'm also not sure how a soulgrinder survives against a mech eldar army?? between firedragons, bright lances, and autarch with fusion guns i would think they would shoot them dead. and barring that when you charge a tank with a soulgrinder i'm surprised that other tanks don't jump to behind the soul grinder and shoot his rear armor.

I don't believe bunches of vehicles give daemons fits since bloodletters, daemonettes, bloodcrushers, bloodthirsters, screamers, seekers, fleshhounds, heralds, greater daemons, all can kill a vehicle quite handily (hitting on rear armor is awesome for this army) and in almost every case the above units have far more attacks to try and kill a unit, and are far more survivable that a single prince or soulgrinder. (now I wouldn't take some of the above units but im sure somebody somewhere likes them)


]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/456151.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/456151.page GMT what daemons do well again!?!?!!
Ozymandias, King of Kings]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/456250.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/456250.page GMT what daemons do well again!?!?!!
HQ
2 keeper of secrets with musk, 7 attacks on the charge, monsterous creatures, hit and run = awesome.

Troops
2 units of 18-20 daemonettes with icons
1 unit of 9+ nurgle with icon to hold my objective

Heavy
3 grinders with pleghm

this is at 1750pts

1) the Heavy Grinders lay down the pie plates
2) the keepers with their massive number of attacks take care of targets for me.
3) the daemonettes are huge squads, meaning they won't die first turn they are out and have the numbers to take things down if needed. Yes I know Blood letters would be better... but they are more expensive

eh, I don't like the small units people seem to be running. I think this is a bit more competitive]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/456379.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/456379.page GMT what daemons do well again!?!?!! DS'd next to a tank in the enemy zhone, but you turboboost toward them, so now you have a 3+ cover and a 4+ invulnerable. Next round you eat vehicles. At 16 points a screamer, bring 3 units of 5, you're not much more expensive than one tooled out soulgrinder, cheaper than most DPs, are typically more resilient (No one hit kills against you), and can be used to tie things up.

I typically run fateweaver, 2-3 units of 3 flamers, an even mix of bloodletters and horrors (if I have to take more of one than the other I take the extra in bloodletters), and 2-3 units of screamers (points depending). If I get a few extra points I throw in a couple of heralds of tzeentch on chariots, with icon and breath. So far (at least after I got the DS distance down), it's been doing very well (SM's, Mech Tau, IG (mech and a mixture - no straight up gunline yet, Necron and orc opponents) winning most, the losses pretty much coming down to 1 die roll.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/456608.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/456608.page GMT Re:what daemons do well again!?!?!!
AgeOfEgos wrote:
Tortuga932 wrote:umm you do realize screamers are awesome, and seekers can be very good, assault marines are good, everybody used tornadoes until 5th came out, hellhounds are abundant, warpspiders are used, pathfinders in a tau army, grey knight teleport squads, raveners see much use in nids, seraphim for the sisters are widely used. so im confused why you think fast attack doesn't get used?


in the daemon army I actually don't like the heavy support section at all, if ever there was a weak section in that book it's there


Heh heh, screamers are awful guy. Oh, 6s to hit with 1 attack (When they cannot multirole) = fail.

The Heavy is the second best section of the Demon dex...with first being elites. I only call Elites first, as almost every choice there is a good one...with my order being Crushers--Flamers--Fiends--Beasts (Lets play the Sesame Street and see which one of those doesn't belong there..)


Only 6's to hit? A lot of people have that mistaken impression. I'm hitting on 4's, sometimes I don't even need to roll. If my opponent wants to go ahead and run his vehicles around so fast that that he's not getting any effective shooting from them (and only a few vehicles out there can move more than 6 and shoot at all), I'm more than happy to need 6's to hit him. So, run from the screamers and don't shoot, or, don't run, and I'll eat your tank that much sooner. Power of Machine spirit and Fast vehicles are only a slight concern, and since typically you're paying extra for that, I'm ok with it, as it's a larger chunk of your army(point wise) to take out when I do roll the 6. Trust me, with 15 screamers, the 6 comes up, and one hit is quite often all it takes. Additionally I don't care so much if I destroy the tank or not. It's better if it happens, but if not, I'm ok with an immobilize (get to autohit next time), or removing the main gun that's actually a potential worry. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/456629.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/456629.page GMT Re:what daemons do well again!?!?!!
Sure, they can take down stationary tanks...but so can whole loads of stuff in the codex.

This complaining that Soul Grinders can be taken down with a single shot reminds me of people who claim that they don't like Terminators because they roll lots of ones. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/456631.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/456631.page GMT what daemons do well again!?!?!! PoMS. So I've neutralized half the weapons (at least) anyhow by making you run. And you can't outrun the screamers, so it's still possible to get through and stop you. A bit harder, but as long as you're wanting to play cat and mouse, I'm up for needing the 6 to get through. As for the monolith, uh, so? Take a monolith, I phase out the warriors the monolith goes away (been on both sides of that), so at worst I'm stunning it so it cant shoot the gauss arc, at best I'm immobilizing it so if you use it to give more WBB rolls to warriors, I know where they're going to go.

Actually, the biggest worry is walkers of anysort, as you can get locked in and only hit front, need 6's to hit unless they started stunned or immobilized, and they can hit back. But that's when it's better to have a 4+ invulnerable save instead of an armor value anyhow.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/456637.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/456637.page GMT what daemons do well again!?!?!! MC/Vehicle killer in HtH. 3 DPs can go through a Nidzilla before the carnifexes can have a chance to swing back.

Bloodcrushers are the real stars of the Deamon codex due to their eternal warrior, T5, and +3 armor save.

Plague bearers when grouped in 14 man squads will usually take an army's worth of shooting to kill.

Soulgrinders do what Defilers are meant to do but way better and even more cost effective than a Defiler.

Fateweaver is luck dependent but will take the firepower of an army and laugh to the bank. (Dangerous with Bloodcrushers)

Khorne is the strongest of the Deamon armies followed by Nurgle, Tzeench, and finally Slaneesh. Most people I see that have problems with Deamons is because they geared their shooting against orks and anti-ork shooting can easily be shrugged off by Deamons outside of Slaneesh.

Oh and any army that can simply ignore the mission deployment rules is an army that controls the game. The Top builds for deamons seems to be with Bloodcrushers, Deamonzilla, Mixed, All Khorne. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/456666.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/456666.page GMT what daemons do well again!?!?!!
dancingcricket wrote:See above your post concerning land raiders, if you're moving them, you're only getting one shot with PoMS. So I've neutralized half the weapons (at least) anyhow by making you run.


The danger of Land Raiders isn't their weaponry. It's whatever unit they're transporting inside.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/456957.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/456957.page GMT what daemons do well again!?!?!!
Centurian99 wrote:
dancingcricket wrote:See above your post concerning land raiders, if you're moving them, you're only getting one shot with PoMS. So I've neutralized half the weapons (at least) anyhow by making you run.


The danger of Land Raiders isn't their weaponry. It's whatever unit they're transporting inside.


And I think this is the main problem that daemon armies have to face even with lowly transports. Sure there are tons of units that can pop a rhino, but how often will the rhino's payload be delivered. After all thats what they are paying 35-50 points for in the first place.

So the question is can you afford to pop the rhino in hth, dump the squad and be able to survive what the squad is going to dish back at you before you get to go again. This is why I see a need for things like grinders with tongue or tzeentch units with the bolt. It's not good enough to only be able to pop a vehicle in hth.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/457113.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/457113.page GMT what daemons do well again!?!?!! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/457518.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/457518.page GMT Re:what daemons do well again!?!?!! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/457535.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/457535.page GMT what daemons do well again!?!?!! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/457727.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/457727.page GMT Re:what daemons do well again!?!?!!
Seriously, I think an all slanesh army has potential, with a but ton of the elites and fast attack choices. With those you can attempt to hide the turn you drop, then assault 24", as I think they both have fleet right? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/458066.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/458066.page GMT what daemons do well again!?!?!! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/458081.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/458081.page GMT Re:what daemons do well again!?!?!! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/458095.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/458095.page GMT what daemons do well again!?!?!! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/458281.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/458281.page GMT what daemons do well again!?!?!! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/458388.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/458388.page GMT what daemons do well again!?!?!!
thehod wrote:... The Top builds for deamons seems to be with Bloodcrushers, Deamonzilla, Mixed, All Khorne.


How are people equipping their DPs? Looking at the codex, I thought the only one with potential was the Tzeentch sniper prince with bolt+gaze. Has anyone had success with other builds? Is the sniper prince worth its points?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/459905.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/459905.page GMT what daemons do well again!?!?!!
Centurian99 wrote:
dancingcricket wrote:See above your post concerning land raiders, if you're moving them, you're only getting one shot with PoMS. So I've neutralized half the weapons (at least) anyhow by making you run.


The danger of Land Raiders isn't their weaponry. It's whatever unit they're transporting inside.


Not as much of a danger as you think. First, they have to take a pinning test, unless their fearless. So there's a chance that they wont be able to do anything for a round anyhow. Second, they're no longer zipping across the board to wherever they thought they were going in the first place. Third, it's just one unit now, no longer hiding behind a AV14 wall, so they can really only hurt one unit before they can be attacked the next round, which is essentially all the land raider itself was able to do. Fourth, better to get them out of there somewhat early in most cases, rather have the termies out where I can hurt them on round 3 than on round 5 or 6. Fifth, I've just taken out a land raider with a 80 point unit of screamers. I've taken out a significant chunk of your points in any non-apocalypse battle, which means there's a lot less other things I have to deal with, so I should have plenty to deal with whatever was inside, and weather whatever you try to do to me for the one turn. Sixth, I'd rather have your terminators come out in easy assault range of a 80 point unit of 5 models with 4+ invulnerable saves than an 185 point AV13 model (Or an even more expensive Daemon Prince) that you can shoot up then assault with your thunderhammers, powerfists, etc. And if they leave the unit alone, well, I'm happy to tie them up next round while I move something up than can get in there and ignore the 2+ armor.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/459980.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/459980.page GMT what daemons do well again!?!?!!
I'd rather have a unit of lesser daemons surround the target and then have something bigger blow it up ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/460439.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/460439.page GMT Re:what daemons do well again!?!?!!
dancingcricket wrote:
AgeOfEgos wrote:
Tortuga932 wrote:umm you do realize screamers are awesome, and seekers can be very good, assault marines are good, everybody used tornadoes until 5th came out, hellhounds are abundant, warpspiders are used, pathfinders in a tau army, grey knight teleport squads, raveners see much use in nids, seraphim for the sisters are widely used. so im confused why you think fast attack doesn't get used?


in the daemon army I actually don't like the heavy support section at all, if ever there was a weak section in that book it's there


Heh heh, screamers are awful guy. Oh, 6s to hit with 1 attack (When they cannot multirole) = fail.

The Heavy is the second best section of the Demon dex...with first being elites. I only call Elites first, as almost every choice there is a good one...with my order being Crushers--Flamers--Fiends--Beasts (Lets play the Sesame Street and see which one of those doesn't belong there..)


Only 6's to hit? A lot of people have that mistaken impression. I'm hitting on 4's, sometimes I don't even need to roll. If my opponent wants to go ahead and run his vehicles around so fast that that he's not getting any effective shooting from them (and only a few vehicles out there can move more than 6 and shoot at all), I'm more than happy to need 6's to hit him. So, run from the screamers and don't shoot, or, don't run, and I'll eat your tank that much sooner. Power of Machine spirit and Fast vehicles are only a slight concern, and since typically you're paying extra for that, I'm ok with it, as it's a larger chunk of your army(point wise) to take out when I do roll the 6. Trust me, with 15 screamers, the 6 comes up, and one hit is quite often all it takes. Additionally I don't care so much if I destroy the tank or not. It's better if it happens, but if not, I'm ok with an immobilize (get to autohit next time), or removing the main gun that's actually a potential worry.


15 Screamers is 240 pts. 240 pts that is only dedicated to tank hunting. For 240 pts, you can have a Soul Grinder + 2 more Crushers....which are good against Nids, Ork Horde + Vehicle light lists. Also;

"So, run from the screamers and don't shoot, or, don't run, and I'll eat your tank that much sooner. Power of Machine spirit and Fast vehicles are only a slight concern..."

Well they are the only argument you could ever make for Screamers, as everything else (barring a Lith) has rear armour 10. So, the only argument for Screamers are Land Raiders and fast vehicles....both of which have a rule that allows extra movement to force 6's to hit (If they are dumb enough to allow you to get close). Put it this way, if the tank is sitting still and isn't a LR or Fast....why do you need screamers?

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/460512.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/460512.page GMT Re:what daemons do well again!?!?!! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/460579.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/460579.page GMT Re:what daemons do well again!?!?!!
Tortuga932 wrote:you need to account for a land raider since the troops can kill any other tank in the game (yes i know not a monolith) and screamers perform that job better than anything else in the codex thats why I run 10 screamers instead of a soul grinder


I can see your point. It is very good. But... do you know how many LRs I saw in my games at the GT? Zero.... they aren't as common place as people think. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/460665.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/460665.page GMT Re:what daemons do well again!?!?!!
Tortuga932 wrote:you need to account for a land raider since the troops can kill any other tank in the game (yes i know not a monolith) and screamers perform that job better than anything else in the codex thats why I run 10 screamers instead of a soul grinder


A BT w/ Unholy Might kills AV 14 better than anything in the dex...it can also handle troops. A Soul Grinder can shoot a Str. 10 at range or assault at Str. 10..and can also handle troops (It can, for instance, delay an entire mob of Ork Boyz). Screamers fail to do anything well except blow up Land Raiders that haven't moved. The only time you should purchase Screamers is if you know you are playing a 5 Land Raider force . In an all-comers list, they are wasted points. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/460750.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/460750.page GMT what daemons do well again!?!?!! BT, SG, DP also need 6's to hit in CC, and those points can be better used doing other things.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/460775.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/460775.page GMT Re:what daemons do well again!?!?!! str upgrade he does do better against tanks, but it's only 1 better youve instead shifted from needing a 6 to needing a 5 (which is good) but for the same points you get 16 screamers i believe guess who's going to do better against a tank? as far as using a str 10 shot from a grinder?? now you're just wasting points a single shot that only hits half the time?? seems kinda weak to me and as far as holding up ork boyz?? I'd rather take my other units and kill them wholesale

now in my army i use a thirster and screamers since you can't bring just one unit to kill a land raider and expect it to live or your unit to live, and screamers kill tanks way way better than a soulgrinder (once again mobility and survivability and more dice win out over 5 str 10 attacks)

and as far as not seeing land raiders??? at the chicago gt they were everywhere pretty much anyone who could take one did]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/461102.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/461102.page GMT what daemons do well again!?!?!! but yea... the amount of melta out there I think is finally making people realize land raiders aren't all that good.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/461292.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/461292.page GMT Re:what daemons do well again!?!?!!
Tortuga932 wrote:and the screamers are much more suvivable than a bloodthirster or soulgrinder 10 screamers need ten wounds to kill them a blood thirster needs 4 and you can see and shoot him from pretty much anywhere (good luck hiding him) and a soulgrinder dies to one shot from any number of weapons, and ten screamers kill land raiders just as dead if they need 6, 4, or hit automatically, since the odds of getting a 6 is much higher with 10 dice instead of 6 (my bloodthirster has whiffed against a tank needing 6's more times than i can count) and if a thirster fails its way more points than if 10 screamers fail. (if you fail what you failed with probably will die) and anytime a screamer needs a 6 guess what does too, thats right anything else assaulting too (that includes a bloodthirster or a soulgrinder) Now if you buy a bloodthirster the str upgrade he does do better against tanks, but it's only 1 better youve instead shifted from needing a 6 to needing a 5 (which is good) but for the same points you get 16 screamers i believe guess who's going to do better against a tank? as far as using a str 10 shot from a grinder?? now you're just wasting points a single shot that only hits half the time?? seems kinda weak to me and as far as holding up ork boyz?? I'd rather take my other units and kill them wholesale

now in my army i use a thirster and screamers since you can't bring just one unit to kill a land raider and expect it to live or your unit to live, and screamers kill tanks way way better than a soulgrinder (once again mobility and survivability and more dice win out over 5 str 10 attacks)

and as far as not seeing land raiders??? at the chicago gt they were everywhere pretty much anyone who could take one did


Most of the 40k Demon Lists I've seen/played that are competitve...use 3 Grinders w/ the Str 10 shot. 40kEnthusiast for example posts many battle reports (Which are incredibly good stuff) and he uses this setup. He comes across as a terrific player (and all around good gamer to play against)...so not to use argument from authority...but given my experience I trust his opinion on the matter. The pie plate on the Grinder sounds great until you factor in the need for anti-tank (As the str 8 + 1d6 just doesn't do it). 3 Grinders shooting the Str. 10 AP1 (So +1 on damage) is usually more than enough to blow up a vehicle.

The Grinder could be called the best unit in the dex (PBs, Kairos or Crushers as an argument). You may scoff at holding up 30 Ork Boyz...but playing Orkz with Demons is not a ball of fun. For every Bloodletter you take, they take 3 Boyz. They cover the board making DS more difficult. They overwhelm with 29 wound PKs. They are tough and any unit that can basically negate their #s and allow your Letters to countercharge free of damage...is a great unit!

Screamers won't matter there. Screamers won't matter against anyone that doesn't have a LR....and even then it's up in the air. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/462869.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/462869.page GMT what daemons do well again!?!?!! IG troop squads, after missing the Russ with one of them, and not getting through the armor with the other. Next round though the russ went bye bye from one squad of screamers, as did a second one from another squad.

Mind you, I also don't take bloodcrushers (partly because I object to spending $25 per model for them), but mostly because I find my DS suicide flamer squads to be invaluable.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/463581.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/463581.page GMT what daemons do well again!?!?!!
dancingcricket wrote:I'm not saying that the Grinders aren't good units, or that they don't have good uses, but that in my experience they aren't so great that I'd rather have them. I've had 2 souldgrinders disappear in round 2 from some lucky hits from the lascannons in IG troop squads, after missing the Russ with one of them, and not getting through the armor with the other. Next round though the russ went bye bye from one squad of screamers, as did a second one from another squad.

Mind you, I also don't take bloodcrushers (partly because I object to spending $25 per model for them), but mostly because I find my DS suicide flamer squads to be invaluable.


Well, no offense but that is anecdotal. I do agree that if you take Grinders you need to take 3 and put them in the same drop....else all their heavies will focus on one (with no detriment to doing so). Chance for a lascannon to pen a Grinder;

Marin Devs w/ 4 Las Cannons:
2.64 hits
0.87 pen
0.28 wreck/blow it up

Not exactly good odds for a (likely) 278 pt unit against a 160 pt unit...who is going to jump into HTH and eat them the next turn . Sure there are games where they blow it up with a lucky hit in turn 1...just like there are games were they fail to blow up any of the 3 despite pounding them every turn. Odds say however, AV 13 units that can HTH tend to stick around...

15 Screamers though, *shrug*. Say everything goes absolutely right, they don't scatter and get rapid fired...I don't react to them and they blow something up. They'll likely lose 2-3 from the explosion and get killed the next turn...so you traded units/points. Just not my cup of tea!

/I dig the models though

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/463685.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/463685.page GMT Re:what daemons do well again!?!?!! dev unit they are horrendously expensive, whats more likely to kill them are the 50 point attack bikes or the melta guns all over the place. people arent using that many points to kill them and thats the problem you should be looking at melta guns as a threat lascannons don't really kill tanks very well this edition compared to a melta variety weapon

and the prevalance of melta weapons in pretty much every book are far cheaper and more effective at killing soulgrinders.

space marines have combi meltas on pretty much every unit and failing that they have cheap speeders and attack bikes with multimeltas and even just bike units not to mention bs 5 characters with meltas coming out of rhino's or drop pods, or everyones favorite sternguard out of pods with combi meltas

chaos marines have meltas out of every orifice possible 5 melta chosen units outflanking or 5 melta havok units not to mention the 5 point combi melta on terminators and the bs 5 melta on their characters, and bikes and raptors all have melta

eldar have fire dragons, fusion gun autarch haywire grenades,

tyranids have any monstrous creature killing it pretty handily in combat not to mention rending in piles of places to get it

sisters have melta all over the place too

imp guard have melta 4 a crack out of 5 man suicide squads and all over the place, not to mention demoliser cannons

tau have melta guns too (i forget what they're called) out of deepstriking units and theirs can hit on 2's also they also have emp grenades, oh yeah and that little railcannon gun

the point is there are far far too many ways to kill a soulgrinder that are reliable (not 4 lascannon devastators) and at the worst are equal points but in almost every case are far far fewer points than a grinder

don't forget every melta gun only needs a 5 to glance and a 6 to pen (assuming close range) on TWO dice, and then has a 50% chance to kill a grinder and those aren't odds that I like

even taking into account a unit of marines rapid firing screamers (assume 10 bolters since its easy and any special weapon other than a flamer (which is hard to get an average) will only get the same wounds) will hit 14 times and wound 7 times, wich translates to 3.5 dead screamers dropping a unit of 15 to a unit of 11, which is still more than enough to kill a tank, and has far more dice than a grinder still.

this is also not taking into account the usage of terrain, I can hide screamers behind terrain in most cases, where can you hide a soulgrinder? Hell where can you hide a grinder so it gets a cover save? the thing is gigantic (which is awesome its such a cool model)


either way people obviously have their own opinions on what's good and what's bad, such as you and I do. And everybody should decide for themselves which option they like better, and which option fits their playstyle. What people forget is that every unit in every book is good somewhere in some situation for somebody. It all depends on how you use them and wht your playstyle is. The only way for that to happen is for people to get out there and try it for themselves and form their own opinions.
It would be beneficial to the community at large for remembering this and not telling people "this unit is dumb or that unit sucks" and trying to be open to new ideas, and new styles of playing (I'm just as guilty of saying this sucks as the next guy, and for that I apologize.) and if people would remember to think that way it would make the community just that much better.
So since this thread is starting to sound like a stelek shout down, I will have nothing further to say on this subject, instead I'll let everyone else TRY it for themselves and decide which they like better. Everyone is welcome to have as many last words as they wish]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/463765.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/463765.page GMT what daemons do well again!?!?!!
I have seen Deamonzilla work to a good degree, I have seen bloodcrusher spam which seems to be the most potent out of the powerbuilds, lastly is the Epidemus build that is good but not against everything. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/463802.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/463802.page GMT what daemons do well again!?!?!! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/463840.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/463840.page GMT what daemons do well again!?!?!!
Somnicide wrote:Sign of a good codex if people are arguing over different tools for the same job ;-)


You are absolutely correct sir!

Deamons is a codex that breaks up the game mechanic in 40k and plays by its own terms and with Eternal warrior, multi-wound models have no fear of Instant Death. They are an army that not too many people prepare to fight against. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/463852.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/222805/463852.page GMT