Latest posts for the thread "Chaos Sorcerers and Shields"

Chaos Sorcerers and Shields

MascisMan — GMT

In the new WoC book on page 106 it states that Sorcerers can use magic shields like "other champions of chaos."

My question is, can they use mundane shields because of this? There is no option for mundane shields in their profile...

Re:Chaos Sorcerers and Shields

Canaan — GMT

Nope only the magic kind

Chaos Sorcerers and Shields

Negativemoney — GMT

There is still a strong debate against the notion that they can take magic shields. They do not have the option for mundane shields and the only reference to magic shields for sorcerers is in the description of sorcerers but no where else in the rules.

Re:Chaos Sorcerers and Shields

Canaan — GMT

I dont understand how it could be understood any other way.

Chaos Sorcerers and Shields

jmurph — GMT

Because some people seem to believe that the reference to sorcerers is meant to encompass characters with the book of secrets of something that lets them cast. It's a very strained argument.

Of course, any halfway decent rule writer could have simply given Chaos Sorcs the option of shields.....

Chaos Sorcerers and Shields

Negativemoney — GMT

Because there is a clear difference between rules and descriptions. That section is more of a description of the sorcerer rather than how the sorcerer is supposed to be played. The Sorcerers do not have the option to take a mundane shield so they cannot take a magical shield.

Chaos Sorcerers and Shields

jmurph — GMT

Oh, I agree there is no shield option, but I disagree on the description "clearly" not being rules.

Re:Chaos Sorcerers and Shields

Canaan — GMT

Um that is a rules section. It is telling you how to use your wizard.

Re:Chaos Sorcerers and Shields

MascisMan — GMT

Canaan wrote:Um that is a rules section. It is telling you how to use your wizard.

I agree, the area in the book where this is stated is defending why sorcerers have chaos armor. It specifically says that the spellcaster can wear armor and shields just like champions of chaos.

Chaos Sorcerers and Shields

fazz — GMT

It is clearly stated in the designers notes for WoC on the GW website that the sorcerers may take shields.

Sigh.

Chaos Sorcerers and Shields

MascisMan — GMT

fazz wrote:It is clearly stated in the designers notes for WoC on the GW website that the sorcerers may take shields.

Sigh.

But on this page, it specifically says that sorcerers can not use magic shields:

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=400023&pIndex=1&aId=10100004&start=2

Now Im really confused.

Chaos Sorcerers and Shields

jmurph — GMT

The link doesn't work for me, but I am guessing it is the FAQ for the old Chaos mortals book.

Re:Chaos Sorcerers and Shields

Negativemoney — GMT

Canaan wrote:Um that is a rules section. It is telling you how to use your wizard.

It describes the unusual characteristics of chaos sorcerers but no where in that section does it state that they can be equiped with shields even though they normally cannot be equipped with them. For the book to override the BRB it needs to have language indicated that it is.

On a side note, only official FAQs can really be used to determine intent from the developers.

Chaos Sorcerers and Shields

Mad Doc Grotsnik — GMT

Is the same as Vampires.

the Magic Item list specifically states Vampires and Necromancers may select pieces of Magic Armour, despite (without a bloodline power) the choice to take a mundane equivalent.

Chaos Sorcerers and Shields

Negativemoney — GMT

However the Warriors of Chaos Book does not have that statement or anything similar to that statement.

Re:Chaos Sorcerers and Shields

Canaan — GMT

So then, at this point I only have one question.
Why would it say that chaos sorcs can use magic armor AND SHIELDS?

Chaos Sorcerers and Shields

Mannahnin — GMT

Because “Sorcerer” has two meanings- one of which is any Chaos model that casts spells. Which can include things like Daemon Princes, Exalted Champions with the Book of Secrets, and special characters.

The particular section in question is talking about the use of magic by chaos in general, not just the specific unit from the army list called a "Chaos Sorcerer".

Re:Chaos Sorcerers and Shields

Canaan — GMT

Ok then by that logic the chaos sorcerer is indeed a sorcerer as described in this section. Wherin it states a sorcerer can use magic armor and shields. Correct? Or am I missing something?
I know this is pretty pointless. You guys will see it your way and we will see it our way. Until an official FAQ comes out it is pretty pointless to argue either way I suppose.

Chaos Sorcerers and Shields

Mannahnin — GMT

Please note that I’m not sure if I count as “you guys”. My initial take was that it definitely wasn’t allowed, based on what I perceive as ambiguity in the rule, and the precedent set by the previous codex. Presently I’ve started to lean more towards your perspective, and am really on the fence. I do hope they FAQ it to make it 100% clear.

I don't think it's pointless to discuss; I think both points of view have their merits, and it's important for people to know about the issue and be conversant with the opposing side so they're not caught by surprise or annoyed if they run into an opponent who plays it differently.

Chaos Sorcerers and Shields

Negativemoney — GMT

The wording no where states that they can select magic shields from the magic items section. it states "Sorcerers are unusual in that they wear chaos armor and use magic shields and magic armor just like other champions of chaos." They are making a statement that describes the differences between chaos sorcerers and other wizards. No where in that statement does it give them permission to select a magic shield even though they normally cannot select one.

Re:Chaos Sorcerers and Shields

Canaan — GMT

So I guess saying that they wear it is saying that they arent alowed to wear it?
It really makes no mind to me. I play WoC but wouldnt give my sorcs shields in the 1st place. However Im sure there are those who would.
The problem is they describe sorcs using specificly magic shields in a rules section.

Chaos Sorcerers and Shields

Mannahnin — GMT

And in the sentence immediately preceding it, they tell you that a “sorcerer” is any chaos model which can cast spells. The fact that those two sentences are right next to each other is what makes some folks think that shield comment is meant as a catch-all for the other guys.

Re:Chaos Sorcerers and Shields

Canaan — GMT

There is a period between right? I dont have my codex on me.

Chaos Sorcerers and Shields

jmurph — GMT

Actually, by logical analysis, it does.

A=B
B=C
A=C

All Chaos Sorcerors are sorcerors
All sorcerors are shield users (may use magic shields)
All Chaos Sorcerors are shield users (may use magic shields)

Is this sufficient to overcome the normal limitations?
I believe so and would have no problem with any WoC player equipping their Chaos Sorceror with a magic shield.

Chaos Sorcerers and Shields

Negativemoney — GMT

jmurph wrote:
All sorcerors are shield users (may use magic shields)

This is incorrect. No where does it indicate that they are shield users or that they all have the option to take a magic shield. Premise 2 should be

Some sorcerers are shield users (may use magic shields)

This will require you to add premise 3 which is:

Models that have the option to take a mundane shield can also take a magic shield.

which give the conclusion

Those sorcerers that can take a mundane shield can take a magic shield.

Re:Chaos Sorcerers and Shields

Canaan — GMT

Ok, but now you are adding words to the codex.

Chaos Sorcerers and Shields

Mannahnin — GMT

That’s part of the ambiguity. Both of them added a word. Jmurph added “all”, and negativemoney added “some”. Part of the problem is that the army book uses neither. One sentence gives a very broad definition of “sorcerer” which includes several different types of models with very different capabilities and equipment options. The immediate next sentence makes a broad statement about the fact that “sorcerers” can use armor and shields and still cast spells.

Re:Chaos Sorcerers and Shields

Canaan — GMT

I doubt a rules boy email would help?

Chaos Sorcerers and Shields

Mannahnin — GMT

Not for the purposes of this discussion, at least, for two reasons.

1. Rules boys emails aren’t printed in a nice book with GW’s logo on them for you to show your opponent at an event.
2. Their track record for inconsistency and illogic has been pretty terrible for the nine years I’ve been playing and participating on online discussions.

There have been some indications in the last few months that (on the 40k side in the US, at least) GW is trying to improve consistency from the Rules Boys (now “boy” in the US), which is nice for impartial third-party resolution of a dispute in your local group, but doesn’t actually tell you what the designers were thinking, and even if it did, doesn’t resolve the problem of how to resolve the issue in a pick up or tournament game with a stranger.

Since we’re mostly strangers from around the world on this board, the YMTC forums are intended to help us hash out what the rules actually say and try to understand them better, to help us resolve issues better locally. For friendly games with people you know well, you’re rarely going to need to wrangle as much as we do online. But it helps a lot in terms of understanding and being able to communicate about these issues with strangers when you play against them.

Generally speaking, in those situations your best bet is to discuss it before the game, ask the event organizer before the tournament, and hope for the FAQ.

Chaos Sorcerers and Shields

jmurph — GMT

Negativemonkey: I think you assume too much into the rule. The book reads:

The term 'Sorceror' is used to describe Wizards who follow the Chaos Gods. Sorcerors are unusual in that they wear Chaos armor and use magic shields just like other Champions of Chaos.

Notice it doesn't say some. Its says Sorcerors which was just defined in the previous sentence to describe "Wizards who follow the Chaos Gods". Thus Wizards who follow the Chaos Gods wear Chaos armor and use magic shields.

My initial logical analysis stands, I think.

Re:Chaos Sorcerers and Shields

Canaan — GMT

Yup
It really cannot be read any other way.

Chaos Sorcerers and Shields

Negativemoney — GMT

jsmurph, the word all is never mentioned in the rules and is something that you have just added in. Also it says that they use not that they can purchase from the magic item list. In order for someone to purchase that item they need to be able to first take a mundane item of the same armor type.

In this situation there is no provision for that to happen so a chaos sorcerer or an exalted sorcerer would not be able to select a shield from the magic armor list.

Re:Chaos Sorcerers and Shields

Canaan — GMT

If I say you can use my pen to write something down; what does that mean? Does it mean you have access to my pen?

Chaos Sorcerers and Shields

jmurph — GMT

I typed the language directly from the book. I have corrected my post to remove the extraneous all. Same result.

Your statement is the basic rule which governs unless superceded by an army specific rule (see also Vampire Counts). The rule in WoC says that "Sorcerors ... use magic shields." Chaos sorcerors may use magic shields (contrary to the normal rule) despite not having the option to take a normal shield because the army book tells us this.

Is your argument is that they may use them but not purchase them?

Re:Chaos Sorcerers and Shields

Negativemoney — GMT

Canaan wrote:If I say you can use my pen to write something down; what does that mean? Does it mean you have access to my pen?

It just means that if I had the option to possess your pen I can write with it. How ever your statement indicates to me that your pen might be in your car or even lost. There is no way to tell from your statement that I can actually take your pen as you only give me permission to use.

jmurph wrote:Your statement is the basic rule which governs unless superceded by an army specific rule (see also Vampire Counts).

I completely agree with that. The Vampire Counts rules explicitly state they may select armor and shields even though they normally cannot. This is a clear difference to the Sorcerer description in the Warriors of Chaos Book.

jmurph wrote:Chaos sorcerors may use magic shields (contrary to the normal rule) despite not having the option to take a normal shield because the army book tells us this.

Once again you are adding words that are not there. No where does it states it overrides the rules in the BRB regarding magic armor.

Chaos Sorcerers and Shields

jmurph — GMT

It does not have to state it explicitly. A rule may implicitly supersede another. The rule for Chaos sorcerors states they may wear armor and use shields. Do you disagree with this? If so, do you believe Chaos sorcerors may not wear armor? Why? Use shields (notice I said nothing about selecting magical shields....)? Why?

Chaos Sorcerers and Shields

Mannahnin — GMT

The WoC book general section on magic defines a Sorcerer as any chaos Wizard (which the main rulebook defines as any model which casts spells). This means that a Sorcerer includes the Chaos Sorcerer and Exalted Sorcerer units, also Daemon Princes, Exalted Champions and Chaos Lords with the Book of Secrets, and any Special Character who casts spells. This is a very broad category. The immediate next sentence states that sorcerers are unusual in that they wear chaos armor, magic armor, and magic shields.

This creates a contradiction between the general statement on page 106, and the specific prohibition from the main rulebook on a character taking magic armor or a magical shield if he does not have access to the mundane equivalent.

Now, if you read the statement about sorcerers and magic shields and armor as a general catch-all not meant to violate the rulebook prohibition, then you break no rule. A Chaos Lord or Exalted Champ with a Book of Secrets can take a magic shield or magic armor and still cast in it, because he has the option for the mundane equivalent AND has a rule saying he can still cast while wearing it. A Daemon Prince (who is a sorcerer) cannot take a magic shield or armor, because he lacks the mundane option. A Chaos Sorcerer or Exalted Sorcerer can take magic armor and still cast in it (as he has the appropriate rule and the mundane option), but can't take a magic shield as he doesn't have the option for the mundane equivalent.

At least that's one way to read it. And, based on its immediate proximity to the statement about sorcerers and magic armor & shields, it seems to me that it might be the intent.

The counter argument is the one you've offered- that the language is broad, and might be intended to be all-inclusive, despite GW having left out the word "all". Of course, that might have been left out just to prevent people from trying to take magic shields with their daemon princes.

I'm really not sure which is the right interpretation. A lot of folks hold to the maxim that in such a situation, it's best to err on the side of the less powerful interpretation, to avoid the possibility of taking an unintended advantage.

Chaos Sorcerers and Shields

jmurph — GMT

You make a good point Mannahin, and that is that according to the MoC definitions, if one argues that a Chaos sorceror can take a magic shield, one must also argue that a Daemon Prince can take one as well!

But people seem to be missing my point and that is that Chaos sorcerors (and Daemon Princes) may USE a magic shield. That is what the rule says. However, I agreed with NM that they have no option to TAKE a shield.

And I agree with the maxim of erring on the side of caution for oneself but also usually allow maximum leniency with others. So, my WoC sorcs do not carry shields, but I would not object to playing an opponent who did.

Chaos Sorcerers and Shields

Negativemoney — GMT

That seems like a fair compromise on this issue.

Chaos Sorcerers and Shields

BorderCountess — GMT

Um, isn't the Daemon Prince with a shield argument made moot by the fact that the Daemon Prince doesn't have the option to magic tiems AT ALL? Correct me if I'm worng, but he doesn't actually have a magic item allowance, only an allowance for gifts, yes?

Chaos Sorcerers and Shields

MascisMan — GMT

Manfred von Drakken wrote:Um, isn't the Daemon Prince with a shield argument made moot by the fact that the Daemon Prince doesn't have the option to magic tiems AT ALL? Correct me if I'm worng, but he doesn't actually have a magic item allowance, only an allowance for gifts, yes?

That is correct. So the Daemon Prince comparison is not a very good one.

Here is something else we are not focusing on in the text on page 106 of the army book. After stating the line about how Chaos Sorcerers "wear chaos armour and use magic shields or magic armor" we see this:

"This can make them (sorcerers) formidable close combat opponents as well as masters of the Magic phase - a combination that is rare indeed in the armies of lesser mortals."

This statement tells us that sorcerers/wizards carrying magical armor and/or shields is "rare" in lesser mortal armies. This infers that is somewhat common in WoC armies.

So if the intent is that sorcerers using magical armor and shields is to be more common in WoC armies and sorcerers in WoC armies are meant to be more "formidable" at close combat because of this special access to equipment why would GW restrict sorcerers from taking shields (thus negating the entire statement/idea)?

The intent is for sorcerers to be better than other wizards in close combat BECAUSE of their access to normally off-limit pieces of equipment.

NOTE: a response of "chaos sorcerers are better than other wizards in close combats because of their stat lines" is irrelevant to the text in the book and the subject at hand. The book doesn't say that Chaos Sorcerers are more formidable because they are stronger or trained in combat. It cites the equipment as the advantage.

Chaos Sorcerers and Shields

Negativemoney — GMT

MascisMan, Nothing in the rules gives you permission to violate the rule set forth in the BRB. In the VC book it explicity states that you cane give them shields and armor even though they normally cannot have it. This language is missing from the Chaos book and is present in every case where you can do this.

Chaos Sorcerers and Shields

MascisMan — GMT

Negativemoney wrote:MascisMan, Nothing in the rules gives you permission to violate the rule set forth in the BRB. In the VC book it explicity states that you cane give them shields and armor even though they normally cannot have it. This language is missing from the Chaos book and is present in every case where you can do this.

So, "wear chaos armour and use magic shields or magic armor" is not explicitly saying Sorcerers can wear magic armor and magic shields?

Listen, I'm not saying anyone is right and wrong. But to state that the WoC book doesn't explicitly state that Sorcerers wear/use shields is wrong IMO.

Chaos Sorcerers and Shields

Negativemoney — GMT

It does not say they can violate the rules set forth in the BRB regarding the 'purchase' not the 'use' of magic Armor and Shields. If they have the option to Purchase then they have the option to use. It does not work the other way around.

Chaos Sorcerers and Shields

jmurph — GMT

Wearing and being able to select are too different things. As you pointed out a DP has no option to take magic items, but he is classified as a sorceror and thus can use magic armor and shields. Unfortunately, he has no option to take any, so it is largely a useless ability. Chaos Sorcs have an option to take armor (chaos armor), but not shields. So they are more formidable than most wizards (who can't take armor or shields). However, although they can use magic shields, they have no option to take them.

Chaos Sorcerers and Shields

Negativemoney — GMT

Bingo jmurph!!!

Chaos Sorcerers and Shields

MascisMan — GMT

jmurph wrote:Wearing and being able to select are too different things. As you pointed out a DP has no option to take magic items, but he is classified as a sorceror and thus can use magic armor and shields. Unfortunately, he has no option to take any, so it is largely a useless ability. Chaos Sorcs have an option to take armor (chaos armor), but not shields. So they are more formidable than most wizards (who can't take armor or shields). However, although they can use magic shields, they have no option to take them.

Then the fluff is dumb because a chimpanzee can "use" a shield.......

Chaos Sorcerers and Shields

jmurph — GMT

Yes, it is dumb. It also is inconsistent with models like the Champion of Tzeentch on Disc who has a shield. But that's how they wrote it. slowed. Much like the Eye of the Gods mandatory challenge rule.

Essentially, GW thinks if you want to play Chaos and are not playing daemons, you need to be punished.