<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "The Gate of Infinity Librarian"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/69.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net The Gate of Infinity Librarian
I like the thought of a non-Epistolary Librarian with Gate and say Might of the Ancients. Because you cannot charge and deep strike on the same turn, correct me if I am wrong. And it is only 100 points before say Artificer Armour.

So here are the options.

Honour Guard. You could take Gate and Force Dome here, for 100 points. Everytime you pass a Force Dome you save 35+ points. Not bad. Note that you now have a Chapter Master, a ~400 Honour Guard and a ~175 Librarian. That's a lot of points when you can just take Terminators instead. I would say this is not that great.

Sternguard. Not a bad choice, especially if you really like them. So you could take Pedro and take two or three squads and have one that has a bit of close combat. They cannot shoot their bolters the turn they charge but maybe they should not be in combat anyway. Not a bad choice if you really want it.

Legion of the Damned. I like this combination, I really do. I do not know if it is completely necessary but it is still a cool combination. Re-Deep Strike and fire heavy weapons anywhere on the table, all for 400 points. What's not to love.

Terminators. Oh mai. A cool combo, especially since Might of the Ancients goes with Chain Fists. Taking a Librarian does let you take a Psychic Hood.

Bog standard Tac squad. They've got Bolters. So if all you want to do is fly around the table shooting Bolters, then there you go. Do it Turn 1, Turn 2, Turn 4, ... you are playing Tactically. Deepstrike a Troop squad right onto an objective, for example. Mind you could always just take 6 guys with a Drop Pod. I do not know how I feel here.

Assault Squads, and Bikes. Bikes are mobile shooting platforms. Why not take more bikes. Assault Squads don't have bolters but they can carry flamers. Useful to reposition?

Devastator Squads. You never know. They cannot of course shoot their weapons the turn they Deep Strike.

------

So basically I do not know what to think. I think it is a cool upgrade, mostly because it is different from Drop Pods. Drop Pods show up and that is it. Not only that, but Drop Pods come in as reserves throughout the game. This power is different, this lets you start everything on the table and reposition one squad every turn.

It is definately a very tactical spell, that gives you a unique option. I think I would just take the guy, and not necessarly build the list around him. Build a list heavy on infantry, and then use the character as necessary.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/460044.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/460044.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian
Couple this with some sternguard for some devastating shooting.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/460068.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/460068.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/460087.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/460087.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian
Zoned wrote:The other thing to consider is that you can't buy just 6 Space Marines and a Drop Pod.


So true, so true. My bad. Almost like they know what they are doing.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/460090.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/460090.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian
split into combat squads

5 go in drop pod, 5 deploy normally.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/460128.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/460128.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian
Spellbound wrote:buy 10 marines.

split into combat squads

5 go in drop pod, 5 deploy normally.


Can't do that, codex says units can only combat squad when they deploy, which it states occurs with drop pods when the unit disembarks from the pod.

GoI+Avenger is the combat I've been taking for my libby. He goes with 10 sternguard (3 combi meltas, 2 heavy flamers). This guy does some serious hurt. Against CSM he typically roasts a few, then gets charged and dies. I'm thinking he needs to be stuck in terminator armour with a storm shield. 40 points more, but well worth it IMO.

On the other hand though, gate has been cool but i'm not so sure how much i've needed it. The Avenger has caused some hurt every game it's been used (except for those times that he fails his psychic test at inopportune moments ). Gate on the other hand....

A few occasions it's pulled his sternguard out of combat, and given them a final round of shooting they may otherwise not have gotten. Other times the THREAT of the squad gating out after combat has caused opponents to focus all their attacks on the librarian rather than his squad (remember he's an independant character, so they must CHOOSE who to direct their attacks towards, causing 30 wounds to a 5 wound unit doesn't just cause him to die now), which has allowed the marines to choose to fail their moral test (combat tactics is so great), and fall back.


Hehe, the best use I've ever gotten out of gate though was a custom game type we came up with called "Hungry Hungry Hippos"

Basically there's an obejective in the middle of the board. Up to four opponents each pick a table corner and deploy within 18" that corner. Players must get a troops squad to the objective to 'pick it up,' and then carry it with that troops squad back to their table corner. First team to carry their objective off their table corner wins.

My librarian and two tac squads dropped directly onto the objective first turn (drop pod assault). Next turn the librarian gated one of the squads 24" towards my table corner, scattering a further 8" towards the corner. They got charged by plague marines trying to intercept them, and after losing combat by one voluntarily fell back another 8", and walked off the board for a third turn win, and cries of "CHEESE!" all around.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/460166.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/460166.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian
PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:
Spellbound wrote:buy 10 marines.

split into combat squads

5 go in drop pod, 5 deploy normally.



A few occasions it's pulled his sternguard out of combat, and given them a final round of shooting they may otherwise not have gotten. Other times the THREAT of the squad gating out after combat has caused opponents to focus all their attacks on the librarian rather than his squad (remember he's an independant character, so they must CHOOSE who to direct their attacks towards, causing 30 wounds to a 5 wound unit doesn't just cause him to die now), which has allowed the marines to choose to fail their moral test (combat tactics is so great), and fall back.




Except you can't gate out of combat. Once you are locked into a close combat, you cannot move your models. Veil of Time specifically says you can...Gate doesn't. Therefore, you still have to follow the rules for movement, including the prohibition.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/460170.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/460170.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian
KeithGatchalian wrote:
PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:
Spellbound wrote:buy 10 marines.

split into combat squads

5 go in drop pod, 5 deploy normally.



A few occasions it's pulled his sternguard out of combat, and given them a final round of shooting they may otherwise not have gotten. Other times the THREAT of the squad gating out after combat has caused opponents to focus all their attacks on the librarian rather than his squad (remember he's an independant character, so they must CHOOSE who to direct their attacks towards, causing 30 wounds to a 5 wound unit doesn't just cause him to die now), which has allowed the marines to choose to fail their moral test (combat tactics is so great), and fall back.




Except you can't gate out of combat. Once you are locked into a close combat, you cannot move your models. Veil of Time specifically says you can...Gate doesn't. Therefore, you still have to follow the rules for movement, including the prohibition.


Incorrect. Gate says "The librarian and any unit he is with are removed from the table and immediately placed back together anywhere within 24" using the deepstrike rules."

There is no rule disallowing him from using a psychic power in combat, and no rule disallowing him from using gate of infinity in combat. The models never "move" persay, they are simply removed, then placed back on the board.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/460186.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/460186.page GMT Re:The Gate of Infinity Librarian You know, so the Vanguard vets deep assault every turn.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/460223.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/460223.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian
PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:
KeithGatchalian wrote:
PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:
Spellbound wrote:buy 10 marines.

split into combat squads

5 go in drop pod, 5 deploy normally.



A few occasions it's pulled his sternguard out of combat, and given them a final round of shooting they may otherwise not have gotten. Other times the THREAT of the squad gating out after combat has caused opponents to focus all their attacks on the librarian rather than his squad (remember he's an independant character, so they must CHOOSE who to direct their attacks towards, causing 30 wounds to a 5 wound unit doesn't just cause him to die now), which has allowed the marines to choose to fail their moral test (combat tactics is so great), and fall back.




Except you can't gate out of combat. Once you are locked into a close combat, you cannot move your models. Veil of Time specifically says you can...Gate doesn't. Therefore, you still have to follow the rules for movement, including the prohibition.


Incorrect. Gate says "The librarian and any unit he is with are removed from the table and immediately placed back together anywhere within 24" using the deepstrike rules."

There is no rule disallowing him from using a psychic power in combat, and no rule disallowing him from using gate of infinity in combat. The models never "move" persay, they are simply removed, then placed back on the board.


this is immaterial because the rules are exclusionary, meaning if it doesnt say you can do something, you cant. i can move regular infantry 6", but i cant move them 12" or 36", even though it doesnt say i cant. it does not say you can remove them from combat (unlike veil of darkness) so you cannot. the fact that it occurs in the movement phase is also an indication that it is movement.

to tacobake:

gate is a rapid fire and assault weapon shooting support power. use it to get your squads of stenguard next to entrenched enemies (lootas in cover) or enemy tanks where they can use their combi-meltas. it is ok with tactical squads and downright scary with terminators (the regular sort). you shouldnt use it with devastators because they are too vulnerable to get shot or charged before they can use their big guns, which have enough range that you dont need to use gate anyway. its ok with combat terminators but youre likely to lose the charge aganist most enemies and get shot up a bit beforehand anyway.

its probably the best power in the codex, especially nasty with locator beacons.

this ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/460380.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/460380.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian
The reasoning is, every other teleport ability in the game can be used in close combat.

I don't necessarily agree with his logic, but don't be at all surprised to see this used.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/460391.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/460391.page GMT Re:The Gate of Infinity Librarian
Belphegor wrote:Can you deepstrike and detach an independent character?
You know, so the Vanguard vets deep assault every turn.


Lol I thought about this too. The only way would be for the librarian to die during the gating by rolling doubles to scatter. You can only separate in the movement phase, and he cannot move after they have deepstriked (except running, which isn't in the movement phase).

Regwon wrote:
PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:
KeithGatchalian wrote:
PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:
Spellbound wrote:buy 10 marines.

split into combat squads

5 go in drop pod, 5 deploy normally.



A few occasions it's pulled his sternguard out of combat, and given them a final round of shooting they may otherwise not have gotten. Other times the THREAT of the squad gating out after combat has caused opponents to focus all their attacks on the librarian rather than his squad (remember he's an independant character, so they must CHOOSE who to direct their attacks towards, causing 30 wounds to a 5 wound unit doesn't just cause him to die now), which has allowed the marines to choose to fail their moral test (combat tactics is so great), and fall back.




Except you can't gate out of combat. Once you are locked into a close combat, you cannot move your models. Veil of Time specifically says you can...Gate doesn't. Therefore, you still have to follow the rules for movement, including the prohibition.


Incorrect. Gate says "The librarian and any unit he is with are removed from the table and immediately placed back together anywhere within 24" using the deepstrike rules."

There is no rule disallowing him from using a psychic power in combat, and no rule disallowing him from using gate of infinity in combat. The models never "move" persay, they are simply removed, then placed back on the board.


this is immaterial because the rules are exclusionary, meaning if it doesnt say you can do something, you cant. i can move regular infantry 6", but i cant move them 12" or 36", even though it doesnt say i cant. it does not say you can remove them from combat (unlike veil of darkness) so you cannot. the fact that it occurs in the movement phase is also an indication that it is movement.

to tacobake:

gate is a rapid fire and assault weapon shooting support power. use it to get your squads of stenguard next to entrenched enemies (lootas in cover) or enemy tanks where they can use their combi-meltas. it is ok with tactical squads and downright scary with terminators (the regular sort). you shouldnt use it with devastators because they are too vulnerable to get shot or charged before they can use their big guns, which have enough range that you dont need to use gate anyway. its ok with combat terminators but youre likely to lose the charge aganist most enemies and get shot up a bit beforehand anyway.

its probably the best power in the codex, especially nasty with locator beacons.

this


It isn't movement, it's a psychic power that REMOVES the models from the board then PLACES them back using deepstrike. This is not movement. In fact, the only time the word "move" or "movement" occurs in the gate description is where it says "beginning of the Librarian's MOVEMENT phase." According to the rulebook "units already locked in close combat with the enemy may not move during the Movement phase." Since Gating is not movement, you are not disallowed from doing it. It did not say "models may not disengage during the movement phase" or "models may do nothing during the movement phase," only that they may not MOVE. Since they are disappearing and reappearing, not moving, they are not disallowed from gating out of combat.

The rules say infantry may "move UP TO 6 inches." That rules out moving 12" or 36", as they are not UP TO 6". Nice strawman though.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/460756.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/460756.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/460762.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/460762.page GMT Re:The Gate of Infinity Librarian http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/475736.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/475736.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/476015.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/476015.page GMT Re:The Gate of Infinity Librarian
MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:I've been very interested in investing in a Librarian/Sternguard combo for this tactic, but one big consern is when they deep strike in a pie plate - is it not common for them to become Ordinance fodder (assuming you haven't also invested in Epistolary & Force Dome)?


Of course that's true if you mindlessly place your figs on the table then mindlessly just move everything around willy-nilly. But any tactic must be adjusted according to the enemy, right? So if you're facing a Lash/Oblit, Whirlwind/Thundercannon SM list, IG Mech list, etc. it may be that you re-deepstrike behind some terrain or a disabled vehicle, etc. Or it may not be fitting to move them out of hth at all. Or you'll have to try harder to keep them out of hth so you don't have to worry about where to re-deepstrike.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/476065.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/476065.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian INV re rolls and you have a pretty good unit for taking out daemons or nob bikers.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/476129.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/476129.page GMT Re:The Gate of Infinity Librarian
- Libby with Gate and Avenger.
- Chaplin Cassius
- Techmarine with full harness and PW(or thunder hammer depending on the points of the match)
- 5 man Assault squad with a flamer and sgt. with lightning claw and storm sheild without pack in a free drop pod upgraded with a deathwind launcher.

They all drop first turn in the drop pod together. Hits the enemy with 3 flamers, Avenger power, 1 twin-linked plasma pistol, and 3 bolt pistols. Second turn you blast something with the drop pod's pie plate and commence with various tactics with what is left of your squad and depending on the army you face.

Example turn 2's:
- Split the squad into an assault force (Libby and assault marines) and a tank hunter force (tech marine and cassius). The assault force can move, flame/avenger/pistols, then chrage. While the tank hunters go pound a tank with the tech marines PF's and perhaps even cassius' fist on rear armour or a krak nade (don't forget your re-rolls for the cahpy power), because they are tank hunting they will always be open to return fire next turn hence cassius's useful toughness 6 kicking for both models as he is the highest majority toughness and allows a chance of surviving for another turn to take another tank or rejoin your assault force.
- Nothing worth assaulting left in range due to your first turn of fire power. So use gate to get you near another target and flame again, minus avenger unless you use epistolaries.
- You got charged by the enemy's crack assault troops or something tied you up and the elites are on the way. Simply gate out to an objective or a defensible position or do as above to something else that is vulnerable.


This unit works great in conjunction with my 2 rhino's, 1 razorback and a vindi who are all rolling towards the enemy or objectives while they are concentrating on handeling this flexible mixed force. Necron warrior's fall to this tactic so well and generally are set up for a phase out on the second or third turn depending on how many the opposing player brought to a 1500 point game.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/476154.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/476154.page GMT Re:The Gate of Infinity Librarian
MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:I've been very interested in investing in a Librarian/Sternguard combo for this tactic, but one big consern is when they deep strike in a pie plate - is it not common for them to become Ordinance fodder (assuming you haven't also invested in Epistolary & Force Dome)?


The pie-plate tossing death machines are usually the first thing that Sternguard make dead. Picture this:

1st turn, 2 squads of Sterns + Libby drop pod in, combi meltas make vindicator/obliterators/demolisher tank dead; maximum remaining pie plate weapons is now 1 (heavy support limited to 3)
2nd turn, teleport off/drop back in, same thing, all pie plates probably dead

Other 1200 points of your army mops up whatever's left over.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/476157.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/476157.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian
Regwon wrote:this is immaterial because the rules are exclusionary, meaning if it doesnt say you can do something, you cant.


There is nothing within the rules for Gate that would limit you in such a manner describing what you demand clarification for. If anything, we'd need clarification to say that you cannot use deep strike.

i can move regular infantry 6", but i cant move them 12" or 36", even though it doesnt say i cant.


The rules allow you to move models up to 6". 0-6 inches inclusive. Your statement is false.

it does not say you can remove them from combat (unlike veil of darkness) so you cannot. the fact that it occurs in the movement phase is also an indication that it is movement.


Interesting from a precedence perspective, but likewise there is no table-top teleport ability using deep strike rules that disallows teleporting out of combat. That it occurs in the movement phase is completely immaterial; running occurs in the shooting phase and Fleet rules apply in the assault phase.

Regardless, John Spencer has said that it's allowed in the assault phase, and although that doesn't rewrite rules in any official capacity, don't be at all surprised to see this used legally at events.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/476162.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/476162.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/476163.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/476163.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian
ShumaGorath wrote:Watch out that a master of the chapter doesn't drop an errant space laser on your superexpensive supersquad thats all bunched up in a knot. Killing one vindicator and loosing 4-5 hundred points of marines is a bad tradeoff.


Also works well with Stelek's Sternguard list (3x Sternguard with drop pods + deathwind launchers, 2 x librarians with gate)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/476248.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/476248.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian GoI works), states that '...and obviously count as having moved in the previous movement phase'. Ok, so if Deep strike counts as movement, and a unit locked in combat cannot move, then wouldn't that mean that GoI cannot be used on a unit locked in close combat?
Can a Deep Striking unit fire a heavy weapon in the turn it arrives? No, why because Deep Strike counts as movement. Can I do anything else that counts as movement when locked in combat? I can't find anything in the rules that says I can.
Question: Where in the rules does it state that the rules are written as exclusionary? I could not find it flipping through the book.
Though above all, 'the most important rule then is that the rules aren't all that important! So long as both players agree...' So regardless of how you view the rule, as long as the players agree that you can GoI locked in CC, then it's all good. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/476556.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/476556.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian
Ok, so if Deep strike counts as movement


No. Deep Strike does not count as movement. Units that deep strike count as having moved, a condition that applies after they have deep struck. It's a little change with a big difference.

The initiator of the Deep Strike is the Gate of Infinity. Gate of Infinity simply allows you to take your models off of the table, then deep strike in. "Taking your models off the table" contains nothing that indicates any sort of movement. They're there, in existence, then the hand of god shows up, and they're suddenly not.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/476609.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/476609.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian
sourclams wrote:You're writing into the rules, just a little bit, in a way that completely changes the way that it can be read. You said:

Ok, so if Deep strike counts as movement


No. Deep Strike does not count as movement. Units that deep strike count as having moved, a condition that applies after they have deep struck. It's a little change with a big difference.

The initiator of the Deep Strike is the Gate of Infinity. Gate of Infinity simply allows you to take your models off of the table, then deep strike in. "Taking your models off the table" contains nothing that indicates any sort of movement. They're there, in existence, then the hand of god shows up, and they're suddenly not.


^^ This.

<remove from table> <stick over here> <roll for scatter>

That is gate of infinity. There is no "movement" there, they simply enter using deepstrike rules, which means they 'count as' having moved. There is no 'movement' at all in this power, and since it's not a psychic shooting attack it can be used in combat just like any other power. That it is used in the movement phase is simply there so that you don't move the unit and THEN deepstrike them somewhere, or vice versa.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/476725.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/476725.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian
ShumaGorath wrote:Librarian and a dual assault canon or cyclone termy squad can be devastating. Combine it with the power that forces INV re rolls and you have a pretty good unit for taking out daemons or nob bikers.


That is what I am doing. Give him a Storm Shield you are pretty safe against Vortex of Doom. And he is awesome.

Other uses I would probably take Tigerius for the extra powers.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/476747.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/476747.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian
I have been trying to think of other squads. I like the Assault Flamer squad. Here are other good ones:

Grey Knight Purgation with Incinerators.
Grey Knight Purgation with Psycannons. If you really, really wanted to. They have a Justicar.

I think normal Grey Knight Squads you want a second squad, instead.

You could give him a 20 strong squad of Sisters with or without a Cannoness.

Ditto an Inquisitor Lord, or even Lord Coteaz with the larger retinue.

Conscripts are out (except Apoc) but you could use Zealots if they are still allowed in your area/ group.

Dominions.

But my favorite use of them is 2 Cyclones + Vortex. Pure Awesome + it is anti-vehicle. Once you make your opponent hate you forever (which is likely the outcome, the more I think about it) they are still good in Turns 4, 5 and 6 to work the same way any other deep striking termie squad would. Purge and cleanse infantry off of objectives.

All in all, a cool unit in what could otherwise be a boring list/ game. Spasse Marinezz, woo!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/476751.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/476751.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/476784.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/476784.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/477026.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/477026.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian
sourclams wrote:You're writing into the rules, just a little bit, in a way that completely changes the way that it can be read. You said:

Ok, so if Deep strike counts as movement


No. Deep Strike does not count as movement. Units that deep strike count as having moved, a condition that applies after they have deep struck. It's a little change with a big difference.

The initiator of the Deep Strike is the Gate of Infinity. Gate of Infinity simply allows you to take your models off of the table, then deep strike in. "Taking your models off the table" contains nothing that indicates any sort of movement. They're there, in existence, then the hand of god shows up, and they're suddenly not.


That, was a great analysis and has completely convinced me.

Also, my monster squad would be sternguard, +tigger+ lysander+ for ultimate killy, and almost not squishy squad.

The only realy weakness of the squad is mass bolter fire, but that is kinda nullified by the fact that anything that get close enough to use their guns is probably already dead.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/477234.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/477234.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/477242.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/477242.page GMT Re:The Gate of Infinity Librarian
Oo.. how about a relentless deep striking unit? With some heavy weaponary?

Libarian + bike + attack bike squad? (36'' range 2d6 multimetlas)

^^ + normal bike squad (w/ attack bike, plasma guns, combi plas)

Epi Libarian (forcedome + gate) + bike + command squad on bikes. (Lack of heavy weapons.. but a very mobile, surviveable nasty CC unit. Maybe)
Edit: Bikes can turbo boost for the 3+ cover save so its pointless to gate em. Ops.

Oooor legion of the damned + libarin w/ gate. Comes in a lil later but extremly mobile. Completely whoring the slow&purposeful rentless bit & eliminating the slow bit
- Add in lots of drop-pod tac squads with teleport homers and it could be really quite nice! ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/477250.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/477250.page GMT Re:The Gate of Infinity Librarian
Razerous wrote:Probably, yeah. And the unit isnt allowed to assualt in the assualt phase either. ..

Oo.. how about a relentless deep striking unit? With some heavy weaponary?

Libarian + bike + attack bike squad? (36'' range 2d6 multimetlas)

^^ + normal bike squad (w/ attack bike, plasma guns, combi plas)

Epi Libarian (forcedome + gate) + bike + command squad on bikes. (Lack of heavy weapons.. but a very mobile, surviveable nasty CC unit. Maybe)
Edit: Bikes can turbo boost for the 3+ cover save so its pointless to gate em. Ops.

Oooor legion of the damned + libarin w/ gate. Comes in a lil later but extremly mobile. Completely whoring the slow&purposeful rentless bit & eliminating the slow bit
- Add in lots of drop-pod tac squads with teleport homers and it could be really quite nice!


Teleport homers don't work, they only work for terminators that "...wish to teleport onto the battlefield via deepstrike..."

If you stick a terminator librarian in with a terminator squad this tactic works though, and would be pretty wicked deadly though, and would work with the homers.

-edit: crap, i didn't read your post well, you said homers but meant locator beams, which does obviously work]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/477610.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/477610.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/477688.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/477688.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian
Golga wrote:So is it can tely outa combat or not with the liby?


telying isn't movement, it's a "remove models, and place them using deepstrike," meaning it isn't disallowed by being locked in combat.

GoI is also a regular psychic power, not a psychic shooting attack, meaning there is nothing to disallow it being used while in combat.

There is also nothing in the rules themselves to disallow it from being used in combat.

Therefore, there is no reason to differentiate it from any other circumstance where gate can be used, so there's absolutely no reason to think otherwise.

The real question is what does it mean by "with" lol. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/477694.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/477694.page GMT Re:The Gate of Infinity Librarian http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/477839.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/477839.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/477961.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/477961.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian moved out of terrain, so why is it different here?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/477979.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/477979.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian
Nurglitch wrote:It's just that if a unit that Deep Strikes counts as having moved, then a unit that Deep Strikes using the Gate of Infinity to leave combat counts as having moved out of combat...


No, they count as having moved after leaving the combat via Gate of Infinity.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478023.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478023.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian
Well, that's exactly it, a unit that was previously in difficult terrain counts as having moved out of difficult terrain if, via the normal Deep Strike rules, units count as having moved.

Sourclams:

Where does it say that? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478167.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478167.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478171.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478171.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian
More to the point, where does it say that a unit using the Gate of Infinity can leave combat?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478178.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478178.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian
Where do you read any sort of movement in that?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478190.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478190.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian
But as far as RAW, the models don't move at all.

Yes, I am just parroting what much smarter people are saying about the subject]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478200.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478200.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian
Well, pretty easily really, since all movement in Warhammer 40k involves taking models in one position, lifting them off the table, and placing them in another position.

But since you've failed to point out where, in the rules, it explicitly states that the Gate of Infinity does not follow the usual rules for movement, you've failed to give any reason why we do not apply those rules for movement.

Likewise you've failed to point out where the rules permit models to leave combat by using the Gate of Infinity. Curiously 'Ere We Go, Skyleap, and the Veil of Darkness all contain specific permission for models using those modes of movement to ignore the usual movement rules and exit combat. So...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478202.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478202.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478205.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478205.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian
So basically what you're saying is that you can't support any of your claims? Good to know that you've admitted that your opinion is wrong and unsupportable.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478206.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478206.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian
Gate of Infinity pulls your models off of the table. That's that. Enjoy your life.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478230.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478230.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478235.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478235.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian
So what's it like being incapable of justifying your opinions? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478238.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478238.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian 40k is so bad that his "tactical advice" is, without fail, utterly worthless. My lack of respect for your opinion is a result of your poor credibility. If you don't see it, I don't care.

Here, answer this guy's question:

The models directly removed from the table and then replaced, have not moved. They count as having moved in subsequent phases but there is a difference.


I honestly hope you waste a few hours of your life drawing up some gobbledygook like you usually do.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478239.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478239.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian
So you agree that the rules do not give permission for a unit to leave any combat they are locked in via the Gate of Infinity? Good.

Thank you, that's all we needed to know.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478247.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478247.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478265.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478265.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian
Nurglitch wrote:sourclams:

So basically what you're saying is that you can't support any of your claims? Good to know that you've admitted that your opinion is wrong and unsupportable.


How is gating out of combat differentiated from any other gating though? Gating isn't movement, it's "removing from the table, then re-entering using deepstrike." That isn't movement. They don't count as having moved until they hit the table again, meaning that they weren't moving until they had already left combat.

Other powers may explicitly state that they allow teleporting out of combat, but they were also written for a prior edition of the rules. In 5th, there is nothing preventing GoI from teleporting units out of combat.

There also isn't much to support your theory that they count as "having moved out of combat." According to RAW they are "removed from the table," with no reference to movement. They then re-enter "using the deep strike rules." It isn't until this re-entering that there is any reference to movement, and the only reference is when you look up deepstrike in the BGB.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478273.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478273.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian
As for my gaming group, we've agreed to play it by the rules, so because the Gate of Infinity makes no provision for moving a unit out of any combat that it's locked into.

Tactics-wise this means that if a unit is to escape combat, it needs to use its Combat Tactics to disengage on the other player's turn, so it's free to jump on the Space Marine player's turn.

The combination of a Librarian and Sternguard is still quite effective since Sternguard aren't fantastic close combat troops, and you can move them somewhere that they can automatically regroup if your opponent is trying to bird-dog your Sternguard off the table once they've fallen back from combat. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478276.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478276.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian
The difference between using the Gate of Infinity when locked in combat and using it when not locked in combat is obviously the fact that a unit is locked in combat and that units locked in combat cannot move out of combat.

Since, when the unit uses the Gate of Infinity to return to the table they use the Deep Strike rules, that unit counts as having moved by the 5th edition rules, using the Gate of Infinity to leave a combat that the unit is locked into means that they count as having moved out of a combat, which is not permitted for units that are locked in combat, by the 5th edition rules.

Moreover all of the other rules such as 'Ere We Go, Skyleap, Veil of Darkness, etc, wherein a unit leaves the table and Deep Strikes includes an explicit permission to leave a combat they would otherwise be locked into.

Skyleap and 'Ere We Go, to take two examples, are written in 5th edition Codicies, the Eldar and Ork codicies to be precise. These are clearly written for the 5th edition because they contain references to 5th edition rules, such as Ghazghkull having a +2A bonus for charging instead of the usual +1 bonus for charging when Slow and Purposeful models in 4th edition to not get the +1A for charging and models in the 5th edition do. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478286.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478286.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian
How is gating out of combat differentiated from any other gating though? Gating isn't movement, it's "removing from the table, then re-entering using deepstrike." That isn't movement. They don't count as having moved until they hit the table again, meaning that they weren't moving until they had already left combat.


See? This guy gets it as well.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478298.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478298.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian fifth edition codexes. They are just codexes that work well within the fifth edition ruleset because the designers had an idea what would and would not work elementally within a fifth edition metagame. Using them as examples is questionable at best.

This is an example of requiring an assurance when one isn't needed. You can't move out of combat in any situation. So having a unit that counted as doing so would require an even larger set of rules to clarify.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478302.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478302.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian
Nurglitch wrote:PirateRobotNinjaofDeath:

The difference between using the Gate of Infinity when locked in combat and using it when not locked in combat is obviously the fact that a unit is locked in combat and that units locked in combat cannot move out of combat.

Since, when the unit uses the Gate of Infinity to return to the table they use the Deep Strike rules, that unit counts as having moved by the 5th edition rules, using the Gate of Infinity to leave a combat that the unit is locked into means that they count as having moved out of a combat, which is not permitted for units that are locked in combat, by the 5th edition rules.

Moreover all of the other rules such as 'Ere We Go, Skyleap, Veil of Darkness, etc, wherein a unit leaves the table and Deep Strikes includes an explicit permission to leave a combat they would otherwise be locked into.

Skyleap and 'Ere We Go, to take two examples, are written in 5th edition Codicies, the Eldar and Ork codicies to be precise. These are clearly written for the 5th edition because they contain references to 5th edition rules, such as Ghazghkull having a +2A bonus for charging instead of the usual +1 bonus for charging when Slow and Purposeful models in 4th edition to not get the +1A for charging and models in the 5th edition do.

Where does it say move in the 'gate of infinity' entry?
I look both pile-in and consolidation moves and guess what, it has the word 'move' in. If it does say 'move' then it means that the unit won't be able to move out of hth.
"While a unit is locked in close combat it may only make pile-in moves and may not otherwise move or shoot"
Just quote it next time guys it's makes things easier for people to understand.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478339.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478339.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian
The Ork, Chaos Space Marine, and Eldar codicies are 5th edition compatible, and include rules like Ghazghkull's Adamantium Skull that only make sense as such. Using them as examples is beyond reasonable doubt.

Speaking of being unable to move out of a locked combat, 'Ere We Go, Skyleap, and Veil of Darkness all specify what happens to the unit that is left when the unit with the special rule absconds from combat. Again, the Gate of Infinity makes no mention of what happens when the unit uses the power to leave combat. It makes no mention of what happens because it never happens.

Which is also why John Spencer's answer doesn't work with the rules. It's not simply the case that he makes up something that the rules do not mention, he doesn't even bother to invent rules to address what happens with these invented rules. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478341.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478341.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian
The rules do not explicitly say that the Gate of Infinity is movement, but they do explicitly say that a unit that uses the Deep Strike rules counts as having moved. If, by the Deep Strike rules, a unit counts as having moved. And the Gate of Infinity allows a unit to be taken out of combat it is locked into, then it clearly follows that the unit counts as having moved out of combat. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478355.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478355.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian
It's so very, very simple.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478394.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478394.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian
Nurglitch wrote:storm knight:

The rules do not explicitly say that the Gate of Infinity is movement, but they do explicitly say that a unit that uses the Deep Strike rules counts as having moved. If, by the Deep Strike rules, a unit counts as having moved. And the Gate of Infinity allows a unit to be taken out of combat it is locked into, then it clearly follows that the unit counts as having moved out of combat.


page 11 of the BGB
"MOVING AND CLOSE COMBAT
Units already locked in combat with the enemy may not move during the Movement phase."

now gate of infinity:

"The librarian, and any unit he is with, are removed from the tabletop and immediately placed back anywhere within 24" using the deepstrike rules."

Now where you think the former makes the latter impossible is because of the "deepstrike rules," that stipulate that a unit "counts as moving." However, where does this actually come up in the rules?

page 95 of the BGB
"In that turn's shooting phase, these units can fire (or run) as normal, and obviously count as having moved in the previous movement phase."

Notice "in the shooting phase," meaning that for the purposes of the movement phase there is absolutely no reference to movement what-so-ever. They are removed from the table, then placed back using deepstrike. None of that is movement.

It is not until the shooting phase that they count as having moved, the only reference to movement mentioned at all so far, but at this point they are no longer locked in close combat (as they are obviously no longer locked in base to base with the enemy) so it is irrelevant. Notice that the rules for movement disallowed moving during the movement phase, they said nothing about during the shooting phase which is the only place this unit will count as having moved.

You say that "units deepstriking out of close combat count as moving out of close combat," but you give nothing to back that assumption up other than rules quoted out of context. There is absolutely nothing there to assume from any of the RAW that the unit deepstriking either counts as moving, or cannot gate out of combat.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478402.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478402.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian
The Gate of Infinity does not permit models to be pulled off the table when they are locked in combat. Case closed.

But let's see what happens to the unit if they are pulled off the table when they are locked in combat.

The Gate of Infinity involves Deep Strike, and units that Deep Strike count as having moved.

If a unit counts as having moved, and the Gate of Infinity took them out of combat, they count as having moved out of combat.

So, supposing that we ignore the fact that the Gate of Infinity gives no permission for removing units from combat, and makes no provision for what happens to the units which they were locked in combat with, we end up in a situation specifically prohibited by the rules.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478412.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478412.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian
So, the rules:

Moving and Close Combat:
"Units already locked in combat with the enemy may not move during the Movement phase."

So a units cannot leave combat by moving. Correct?

The Gate of Infinity
"This power is used at the beginning of the Librarian's Movement phase. The librarian, and any unit he is with, are removed from the tabletop and immediately placed back anywhere within 24" using the deepstrike rules."

So you take a psychic test, and if it's passed then you take the models off the table, and then put them back on using the Deep Strike rules. It happens in the Movement phase...

Deep Strike
"In the Movement phase when they arrive, these units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a deep striking transport vehicle."

So Deep Strike happens in the movement phase, and these units may not move any further than their Deep Strike movement. So Deep Strike is moving in the Movement phase and disallows any further movement except disembarkation. Apparently Deep Strike is movement. Interesting.

"In that turn's shooting phase, these units can fire (or run) as normal, and obviously count as having moved in the previous movement phase. Vehicles count as having moved at cruising speed."

So units that Deep Strike not only move, but they count as having moved in that Movement phase (makes sense that units that moved count as having moved), so the fact that the Deep Strike is movement not only counts for the Deep Strike part of the Gate of Infinity, it counts for the part where the player takes them off the table and out of combat.

So it turns out that the rules support my argument that:

1. Deep Strike is Movement.
2. The fact that Deep Strike is Movement means the entire Gate of Infinity is Movement.
3. And you can't move out of combat.
4. The Gate of Infinity gives no permission to move out of combat, unlike other 5th edition rules like 'Ere We Go or Skyleap.
5. The Gae of Infinity makes no provision for what happens to units left behind by units that used the Gate of Infinity.

How about that?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478424.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478424.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian

--------------------------> Gobbledygook]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478461.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478461.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian
Nurglitch wrote:PirateRobotNinjaofDeath:

So, the rules:

Moving and Close Combat:
"Units already locked in combat with the enemy may not move during the Movement phase."

So a units cannot leave combat by moving. Correct?

The Gate of Infinity
"This power is used at the beginning of the Librarian's Movement phase. The librarian, and any unit he is with, are removed from the tabletop and immediately placed back anywhere within 24" using the deepstrike rules."

So you take a psychic test, and if it's passed then you take the models off the table, and then put them back on using the Deep Strike rules. It happens in the Movement phase...


But it's not movement. There is no reference anywhere in the rules that it is movement, it is removing models and placing them back using the deepstrike rules

Nurglitch wrote:Deep Strike
"In the Movement phase when they arrive, these units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a deep striking transport vehicle."

So Deep Strike happens in the movement phase, and these units may not move any further than their Deep Strike movement. So Deep Strike is moving in the Movement phase and disallows any further movement except disembarkation. Apparently Deep Strike is movement. Interesting.


Okay where exactly are you getting this? From the word "further"? Is that seriously the crux of your whole argument, that they used the word "further"?

Nurglitch wrote:"In that turn's shooting phase, these units can fire (or run) as normal, and obviously count as having moved in the previous movement phase. Vehicles count as having moved at cruising speed."

So units that Deep Strike not only move, but they count as having moved in that Movement phase (makes sense that units that moved count as having moved), so the fact that the Deep Strike is movement not only counts for the Deep Strike part of the Gate of Infinity, it counts for the part where the player takes them off the table and out of combat.


"counts as having moved" is different than "have moved." The rule is there to prevent using heavy weapons, or firing rapid fire weapons at maximum range. Note also that it is not until the shooting phase that they count as having moved before. In the movement phase, this "counts as moving" has not taken place. Since this rule is not in effect in the movement phase, you cannot extrapolate from it to infer that the unit was moving in the previous phase.


Nurglitch wrote:So it turns out that the rules support my argument that:

1. Deep Strike is Movement.
2. The fact that Deep Strike is Movement means the entire Gate of Infinity is Movement.
3. And you can't move out of combat.
4. The Gate of Infinity gives no permission to move out of combat, unlike other 5th edition rules like 'Ere We Go or Skyleap.
5. The Gae of Infinity makes no provision for what happens to units left behind by units that used the Gate of Infinity.

How about that?


1. This is a stretch of the rules, not taken from the rules themselves. During the shooting phase, the unit counts as having moved. During the movement phase, there is no such rule.
2. You already stretched the rules to imply that deepstriking is movement, how is something that ends with deepstriking also movement? The first half is removing the models. Removing models from the table does not count as movement. Deepstriking also does not count as movement
3. You can't move out of combat. Removing models from combat and placing them elsewhere through means other than "movement" is not disallowed.
4. There are no other 5th edition codexes, the marine codex is the first one. Other codexes are 4th edition, though they may have been written with 5th ed in mind
5. Those units are no longer locked into combat with an enemy now are they?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478489.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478489.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian
1. John Spencer has already given the answer (which most people agree with)

2. COUNTS AS having moved. You have used it in your argument many times yet missed it completely. Counts as having moved is not the same thing as moving. They make this clarification for the purposes of shooting, nothing more. If im using a proxy carnifex to represent my tyrant (ie it counts as a tyrant), does that make it an actual tyrant model...no its actually a carnifex.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478519.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478519.page GMT Re:The Gate of Infinity Librarian lol. Gate works fine. There doesnt need to be a drawn out debate. The nay-sayers just do not need justification on such a simple wording.

Skyleap - they move outta combat. They can do it (its not related nor is it similiar) but I just thought id say it to prove a point. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478521.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478521.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian
Actually, insofar as my argument that Deep Strike is movement and hence that using the Gate of Infinity is movement, the fact that the rules say:

"In the Movement phase when they arrive, these units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a deep striking transport vehicle."

So yes, the fact that the rules say that units arriving on the board by Deep Strike cannot move any further, given the exception, is sufficient to conclude that Deep Strike is movement.

If the rules said that a unit that arrives on the board by Deep Strike cannot move, then you might have had something to go on with regard to differentiating Deep Strike and movement, but they don't. They say the unit cannot move any further. Given that it cannot move any further, it must have moved.

Now, I've explained how the fact that Deep Strike being movement generalizes to the Gate of Infinity being movement. Engaging in Deep Strike means the unit has spent the Movement phase moving. The Gate of Infinity happens at the beginning of the movement phase, and the rules for Deep Strike specify that:

"In that turn's shooting phase, these units can fire (or run) as normal, and obviously count as having moved in the previous movement phase."

Since the unit used the Gate of Infinity in the Movement phase, and the Deep Strike part of the Gate of Infinity means that the unit counts as having moved in that Movement phase, the unit used the Gate of Infinity to move in that Movement phase.

Now since a unit cannot move out of combat, and the Gate of Infinity is movement, it cannot be used to remove a unit from combat.

It is beyond doubt that the Ork Codex was written for the 5th edition rules because it contains rules that only work with the 5th edition rules. Ghazghkull's Adamantium Skull demonstrates this. This same book also contains 'Ere We Go, which explicitly permits a unit to move out of combat and describes what happens to the unit(s) left behind in this manner. Same with Skyleap.

The Gate of Infinity does not give the player permission to move the unit out of combat. It does not describe what happens to the units it moves out of combat with. It does not contain the latter piece of information because it lacks the former! ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478525.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478525.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian
So yes, the fact that the rules say that units arriving on the board by Deep Strike cannot move any further, given the exception, is sufficient to conclude that Deep Strike is movement.


Gate of Infinity does not count as movement.

Deep Strike occurs after Gate of Infinity has already broken the models out of assault.

So even if Deep Strike did count as movement, which you sure haven't shown, at all, it's still irrelevant.

But keep going, really.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478527.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478527.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian
Yes, I know what John Spencer has said. Unfortunately he's wrong and (as usual) failed to give any worthwhile justification or reasoning for his answer. The fact that people agree with it is irrelevant to what the rules say. People can, and often do, agree on the wrong answer, so agreement is beside the point.

Now, if people want to play it that way, then by all means with your opponent's permission. But, and this is a problem for all of Mr Spencer's rulings, they're unofficial, contain no explanation, and have a tendency to be wrong.

As for the semantics of 'counts as', I would agree with you if I was arguing that because Deep Strike counts as movement that it is movement. But, as I have shown, Deep Strike is Movement by the rules, hence we can actually take all the references to 'counts as' to mean 'is'.

Razerous:

I agree. The fact that the rules do not provide permission for the unit using the Gate of Infinity to leave combat should be sufficient to settle the question.

But it hasn't, which is why I've provided what is often call an "argumentum ad absurdum", which is nothing to do with mocking an argument, but an argument to show that the opposite conclusion is contradictory.

If we assume that the Gate of Infinity gives permission to leave combat, that permission ends up contradicting the Deep Strike and close combat rules that say you can't move out of combat. That's the argument I've given above citing the rules.

Likewise, if we assume that the Gate of Infinity gives permission to leave combat, that permission ends up without any prescription for what the unit(s) left behind are supposed to do.

In combination, these arguments against the idea that the Gate of Infinity allows a unit to leave combat should be complete.

To whit:

1. The Gate of Infinity provides no permission for the unit to leave combat.

2. If we assume otherwise, that the Gate of Infinity requires no explicit permission for the unit to leave combat, then that assumption contradicts the rules for Deep Strike and close combat, since that assumption requires that the Gate of Infinity not be movement, and the rules for Deep Strike make it movement, and the rules for close combat prevent a unit from moving out of combat.

3. The rule lacks provision for units left behind in combat.

In summary, the rule lacks permission for the supposed action, assumption of permission derives a contradiction with the rules, and the rules lack any provision for what happens in the event of a unit moving out of combat. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478543.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478543.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian
According to the Deep Strike rule:

"In the Movement phase when they arrive, these units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a deep striking transport vehicle."

Explain how these words do not state that Deep Strike is Movement.

The fact that the rules say that units arriving on the board by Deep Strike cannot move any further, given the exception, is sufficient to conclude that Deep Strike is movement. If they cannot move any further, then they have moved.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478547.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478547.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian
Full stop.

The models are already off the table, somewhere else, in God-Emperor-Land, before they deep strike.

There's where your argument breaks down completely. You're dead focused on 'Deep Strike' saying blahblahblah.

Prove that Gate of Infinity, the psychic power that initiates Deep Strike, counts as movement. It'll probably take you a really long time, so I'm going to patiently await the impending flood of digital enlightenment.

[John Spencer's rulings] have a tendency to be wrong.


As opposed to Nurglitchhammer, which as we have all been clearly shown, is totally great!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478563.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478563.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian
So, in other words, you can't actually explain how it is that the Gate of Infinity is not movement. I've already shown that the Gate of Infinity is movement:
Nurglitch wrote:Actually, insofar as my argument that Deep Strike is movement and hence that using the Gate of Infinity is movement, the fact that the rules say:

"In the Movement phase when they arrive, these units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a deep striking transport vehicle."

So yes, the fact that the rules say that units arriving on the board by Deep Strike cannot move any further, given the exception, is sufficient to conclude that Deep Strike is movement.

If the rules said that a unit that arrives on the board by Deep Strike cannot move, then you might have had something to go on with regard to differentiating Deep Strike and movement, but they don't. They say the unit cannot move any further. Given that it cannot move any further, it must have moved.

Now, I've explained how the fact that Deep Strike being movement generalizes to the Gate of Infinity being movement. Engaging in Deep Strike means the unit has spent the Movement phase moving. The Gate of Infinity happens at the beginning of the movement phase, and the rules for Deep Strike specify that:

"In that turn's shooting phase, these units can fire (or run) as normal, and obviously count as having moved in the previous movement phase."

Since the unit used the Gate of Infinity in the Movement phase, and the Deep Strike part of the Gate of Infinity means that the unit counts as having moved in that Movement phase, the unit used the Gate of Infinity to move in that Movement phase.

Now since a unit cannot move out of combat, and the Gate of Infinity is movement, it cannot be used to remove a unit from combat.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478571.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478571.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian
Nurglitch wrote:sourclams:

According to the Deep Strike rule:

"In the Movement phase when they arrive, these units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a deep striking transport vehicle."

Explain how these words do not state that Deep Strike is Movement.

The fact that the rules say that units arriving on the board by Deep Strike cannot move any further, given the exception, is sufficient to conclude that Deep Strike is movement. If they cannot move any further, then they have moved.



The question is whether they count as having moved out of combat, and whether it violates the rule for moving units locked into combat.

"units already locked in close combat with the enemy may not move during the Movement phase."

when the unit is "removed from the table" combat is broken.

under the rules for consolidation "At the end of a combat, if a unit's opponents are all either destroyed or falling back, so that the victorious unit is no longer locked in combat with any enemy..." illustrates this. All enemies either being destroyed or falling back leaves the unit no longer engaged with enemies, and so no longer bound by the laws of close combat. This makes those rules that relate to units left behind by other non-standard breaks of close combat redundant.

Also, further does not mean that movement has occured. If a unit has moved nowhere, saying it cannot move further does not mean it moved in the first place. The rule is fuzzy, but are not strong enough to conclude movement. That deepstriking occurs in the movement phase is simply a result of there being no "deployment phase" once the game has begun.

The only rule that explicitly states that anything counts as moving does not come in until the shooting phase, and therefore has no effect on things that came before them.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478577.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478577.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian
Nurglitch wrote:sourclams:
So, in other words, you can't actually explain how it is that the Gate of Infinity is not movement. I've already shown that the Gate of Infinity is movement:


No, you keep quoting me the Deep Strike rules, which happen after Gate of Infinity has already removed the models from the table.

Pirate understands this, along with everybody else reading this thread.

You're still re-reading the Deep Strike rules to us as if we're 6 year olds without the main book.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478583.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478583.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478585.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478585.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian
Nurglitch wrote:sourclams:

So, in other words, you can't actually explain how it is that the Gate of Infinity is not movement. I've already shown that the Gate of Infinity is movement:


He addressed your argument directly, though you have chosen not to address his response. Requoting your position doesnt make it any less incorrect.

Gate of Infinity explicitly consists of two distinct parts: (1) Remove models from the table, and (2) reposition them using Deepstrike rules. They occur sequentially. If you cannot demonstrate how the first part definitively counts as movement then your argument falls apart. By the time the second part happens the combat no longer exists, so there are no restrictions on movement. Quoting the rules for Deepstrike is irrelevant in addressing Sourclams's rebuttal.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478592.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478592.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian
The Gate of Infinity is employed at the start of the Movement phase.

Supposing that a unit uses the Gate of Infinity to leave a combat that it is otherwise locked in, then it is neither destroyed nor falling back.

Therefore the Gate of Infinity is neither used at the end of the combat, since combats can only end in the Assault phase, and the unit leaving combat does not satisfy the conditions for when enemies leave a unit unengaged in combat.

So rather than making the rules in 'Ere We Go and Skyleap, regarding units left behind in combat, redundant, they are strictly necessary because units using those rules do not leave combat when it ends, have not been destroyed, and are not falling back.

Similarly, the prohibition on further movement does mean that movement has occurred. One cannot move further unless one has already moved. If something has not moved, we cannot prohibit it from moving further, because further is always comparative. To do something further, you always have to be doing something in the first place.

dictionary.com wrote:fur⋅ther
   /ˈfɜrðər/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [fur-ther] Show IPA Pronunciation
compar. adv. and adj. of far with superl. fur⋅thest, verb
–adverb
1. at or to a greater distance; farther: I'm too tired to go further.
2. at or to a more advanced point; to a greater extent: Let's not discuss it further.
3. in addition; moreover: Further, he should be here any minute.


This isn't fuzzy, ill-defined, or ambiguous. The use of a comparative adverb should make it clear that Deep Strike is movement, and that any conclusion to the contrary contradicts the rules of English grammar.

That Deep Strike occurs in the Movement phase and means that a unit that Deep Strikes has moved in the Movement phase is explicitly stated by the rules as cited above.

The fact that this is glossed as 'count as' movement in the shooting phase doesn't mean it isn't movement. Rather, it removes the complicated business of explaining a special type of movement called Deep Strike whereby a model is placed on the board without moving, which is rather important given the problems with Skimmers Moving Fast that previous editions encountered. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478600.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478600.page GMT Re:The Gate of Infinity Librarian
Not because close-combat rules say you can move outta combat (infact, they say you cant move outta CC)

But because its a psykic power. It overrides the rules in the sense of you dont insert the power-description halfway into various rules in the BGB but you apply it after all the rules in the BGB.

The models are now removed from the table. As per instruction (Final) of the pyskic power. Then they return to the table using the deepstrike rule.

They (or he, if hes on his own) dont deep strike. As they dont roll for reserves. They return to the table as per deep strike rules. -- Not quotes exactly. Interpration.

I hope your a happy troll after all this, atleast. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478606.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478606.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian
Deep Strike is part of the Gate of Infinity. If you use the Gate of Infinity to Deep Strike and Deep Strike is movement, then guess what? That means that the Gate of Infinity is movement.

I've explained this:

Nurglitch wrote:Now, I've explained how the fact that Deep Strike being movement generalizes to the Gate of Infinity being movement. Engaging in Deep Strike means the unit has spent the Movement phase moving. The Gate of Infinity happens at the beginning of the movement phase, and the rules for Deep Strike specify that:

"In that turn's shooting phase, these units can fire (or run) as normal, and obviously count as having moved in the previous movement phase."

Since the unit used the Gate of Infinity in the Movement phase, and the Deep Strike part of the Gate of Infinity means that the unit counts as having moved in that Movement phase, the unit used the Gate of Infinity to move in that Movement phase.


If you feel like I'm reading this to you like you're six years old, consider that maybe it's because you're acting like a six year old.

Danny Internets:

How exactly is ignoring my argument addressing it directly? I have yet to see anyone explain how the argument I have posted is incorrect, although I've seen people besides sourclams actually act like adults and attempt to construct counter-arguments.

I have demonstrated how the first part of the Gate of Infinity is movement. Having demonstrated it, all I can do is either point to it and say: "There it is", correct people when they misunderstand what I have written, or attempt to clarify it for people.

Quoting the Deep Strike rules is necessary to show how the Deep Strike rules being movement generalizes to the entire Gate of Infinity rule. That is because the Deep Strike rules say that a unit that uses Deep Strike has moved in that Movement phase. Since the Gate of Infinity is used during that Movement phase, the only logical conclusion is that the Gate of Infinity is movement.

Let's put this another way: The Gate of Infinity happens during the Movement phase and involves the unit making a Deep Strike. The Deep Strike means that they have moved during that Movement phase. Since using the Gate of Infinity is what makes the unit Deep Strike, and Deep Strike is what makes the unit Move, the Gate of Infinity is what makes the unit Move during the Movement Phase. It is Movement. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478612.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478612.page GMT Re:The Gate of Infinity Librarian
You do what the pyskic power tells you to do. You do it at the beginning of the movement phase. You remove the models.

Its like (maybe I think?) porting necrons through a monolith. You can do that when thier in combat (and you get to re-roll some of thier WBB saves.. bastards)

If your at the beginning of the movement phase you do whay it says. Being in combat aswell is moot. It doesnt need to be taken into account to follow the rules exactly.

You can use pyskic powers whilst in combat (It doesnt say you cant) Thats the only thing that could stand up in this arguement.

What else is there (following the above precedure) Nurglitch? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478633.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478633.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian
Nurglitch wrote:Gate of Infinity is what makes the unit Move during the Movement Phase. It is Movement.


Nope, wrong, false, find another dog because this one won't hunt.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478651.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478651.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian
I agree, you do only what the Psychic Power tells you to do, not what it doesn't tell you that you can't do. It doesn't say you can remove them from combat, so you can't.

The Monolith Portal, like the other rules, provides for the exception of pulling troops out of combat, and what to do when they are pulled out of combat.

When following the rules exactly, you have to follow all the normal rules that the special rule doesn't make an exception for, so the rules for Deep Strike and moving out of combat hold and must be applied. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478656.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478656.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian
Okay, so show me where the argument that I've stated goes wrong and how I can avoid what you consider to be an erroneous conclusion. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478658.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478658.page GMT Re:The Gate of Infinity Librarian ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478660.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478660.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian can use it to leave a close combat. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478667.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478667.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian
Now that ambiguity no longer exists, so the rule covering it needs no longer exist either.

Nurglitch you are making this needlessly and trollishly overcomplicated. If you want to troll through 10 years of old rulings to prove that conflictions exist congradulations, they do. You could probably prove that a unit can never shoot because of it's potential to shoot a rapid fire weapon in the same way. That doesn't mean that you should.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478669.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478669.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian
Veil of Darkness
'Ere We Go
Monolith Portal
Skyleap

All have explicit permission to leave a close combat. All describe what a unit does after the unit it has been fighting has been whisked away.

Likewise the Deep Strike rules say Deep Strike is movement...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478677.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478677.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian
As for specified assurance equating to required permission... Well you're just wrong on that one. Those rules were all there to clarify the fact that you were allowed to do it in order to clear the air for argumentative internet people like yourself. They didn't do it because it was explicitly against the rules, they did it in order to avoid confusion. Now that we have a much more concise and relaible set of rules concerning post combat movement and resolution they feel that those assurences are no longer required. Keep in mind skyleap and 'ere we go were both released during fourth edition, not fifth. They still had to conform to within that ruleset, as well as be freely capable of functioning in fifth. That means providing extra assurances, to stave off the ravenous rules complicator called updating editions.

Unfortunatly there will always be some guy that just wants it to be played the way he wants it to be played.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478680.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478680.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian
Except that it isn't over-complicated, or even complicated.

1. The Gate of Infinity does not say that it can be used to leave combat.

2. If we assume that the permission is implicit or not required, then using it to leave combat contradicts the rules for Deep Strike and combat.

3. The Gate of Infinity does not address what happens if the unit leaves combat.

If you call trying to explain and clarify trolling, well, I don't know what to say to that. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478682.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478682.page GMT The Gate of Infinity Librarian
Moderated!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478689.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/223611/478689.page GMT