<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Best Melee Army?"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/69.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Best Melee Army? Hey, I'm considering getting back into 40k.

I played heavily back in the days of 3rd edition, most commonly as World Eater CSM.

Tons of armies can all do the shooty thing or basic tactical stuff, but I want to know what army is most powerful without relying on heavy shooting. (Unless it's like... orks and somehow might be amazing at both, I Don't know how things are in this edition.)

Possible choices such as:
1) Vanilla Marines w/ tons of assault squads or scouts or veterans. Maybe a special character or something. I think vanilla marines might be cheaper than chaos specialists, but not as awesome.
2) Chaos Marines w/ assault focus.
3) World Eaters chaos.
4) Orkz with lots of melee bikers and melee troops.
5) Tyranids (although I refuse to play as the bugs)
6) Blood Angels or Space Wolves or Black Templar - Although unless their codex are made for the current edition, I'm not sure if they're fair game. Black Templar might get nerfed to be more like normal SMs later.
7) Other.

I'd have to class Imperial Guard / Tau / Necrons / Eldar as races which Must shoot to win.

Thoughts from those who've played large numbers of games in current edition?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/476227.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/476227.page GMT Re:Best Melee Army?
Grimaldius
Chaplin with 3 cenobite servitors
2 or 3 of the 20 man templar squads with melta gun, power fist.

Las plas squads... or anything that has a lascannon on it for anti tank.... the las plas are good for holding an OBJ or quarter.

If one of the models in a templar squad dies, then they take a ladyship test. If they pass (with grimaldus and the Chaplin you are fearless) then you move D6 inches toward an enemy of your choice (without the Chaplin, it is to closest enemy).

For each of those servitors you have you add +1 inch to that movement.

If you have the points, take a tech marine with servo harness and attach him to one of the squads. He adds more power weapon and power fist attacks.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/476260.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/476260.page GMT Best Melee Army? Chaos is good in hth, too. But the army is rather expensive model-wise.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/476274.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/476274.page GMT Re:Best Melee Army? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/476282.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/476282.page GMT Best Melee Army? Orks
Nids
Black Templars
Chaos Space Marines

CK]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/476337.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/476337.page GMT Best Melee Army?
Marshall allows Grim to be almost immune dying, 95% chance to save vs every single weapon in the game an unlimited amount of times

It's almost like having a falcon with vectored engines (except he cant be shaken or immoblized!)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/476418.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/476418.page GMT Best Melee Army?
Kirasu wrote:Grimaldus + marshal is better.. Why do you need 2 chaplains when with grim you can give all your units the chaplain ability within 6".. Just mix each unit inside one another

Marshall allows Grim to be almost immune dying, 95% chance to save vs every single weapon in the game an unlimited amount of times

It's almost like having a falcon with vectored engines (except he cant be shaken or immoblized!)


How long ago was the BT codex released? I'm just hesitant of going SM if only a non-vanilla SM codex is more effective than say, ork nobz or chaos stuff.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/476459.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/476459.page GMT Re:Best Melee Army?
Nightbringer
Necron lord w/destroyer body
9 tomb spiders
3 x 10 scarab swarms with Disruption fields
5 flayed ones out flanking
3x10 necron warriors

Army grows 27 wounds a turn and has tons of monstrous creatures running around. With the Nightbringer you have the nastiest CC monster in the game. Not to mention turbo boosting swarms with 3+cover save. That tarpit units till the big nastys get there. It runs like i had envisioned Tyrinids should play.

Not the best but wanted to offer you another option. But it is hella tough to get all the swarms. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/476481.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/476481.page GMT Re:Best Melee Army?
ladyship test.




Hilarious. I thought it was a typo at first.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/476499.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/476499.page GMT Best Melee Army?
Just melee army- Deamons either tons of bloodletters and bloodcrushers or a nugle based army with the tally.

Really scarry shooting & melee army- Nob Bikers

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/476555.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/476555.page GMT Best Melee Army? BT is more effective persay.. Just that it's really brutal in CC.

Edit - nm]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/476656.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/476656.page GMT Best Melee Army? Chaos Space Marines are good.
Nids are good.
Daemons are good.
Orks are good.

Which is the best? Its hard to say. But these armies are the Close Combat kings. They all have their advantages. There are a few I have experience with:

Templars: They have can take an upgrade which gives everyone preferred enemy and they have righteous zeal. This is a very deadly combo. Not only will they get to you faster, but they fight better than most things.

Chaos Space Marines: Daemon princes are amazingly cheap and kill most everything. Khorne Berzerkers in rhinos or Land raiders kill most things.

Daemons: Power weapons everywhere. They have obscenely good HQ choices that can dominate the game. They also have bloodcrushers, which are arguably the toughest and hardest fighting unit in the game.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/477569.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/477569.page GMT Best Melee Army?
People will post methods on HOW to beat them, but when the dice start rolling and they get to krumpin' there is nothing that can stop them.

Daemons are the scariest after the nob bikers.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/477823.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/477823.page GMT Re:Best Melee Army? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/479214.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/479214.page GMT Re:Best Melee Army? Currently they are cheaper than nids and have more attacks (it think) otherwise for swarm armies I'de have to say nids.

For SM i would personally put BA and then BT at the top (BA due to all being jump pack troops if you want + Deathcompany)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/479228.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/479228.page GMT Best Melee Army? BA lead by Dante and Corbulo with lots of power fists in the area of their effect.

G]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/479229.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/479229.page GMT Best Melee Army?
The whole army is going to basically have preferred enemy thanks to ubiquitous 1pt feeder tendrils on genestealers. Beyond that you've got plenty of monstrous creature CC love mixed in with effective CC in your troop slots.

Nids are unique in that you can really pour every last point of your list into making it better at closecombat, every other list is saddled with points burned in pistols, leadership upgrades, transports, special weapons. Nids just buy more teeth and more claws.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/479244.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/479244.page GMT Best Melee Army? If you have never seen them actually maul an army, you wouldn't believe how effective they are.

When the first squad hits and starts stompin, it looks bad. The Kommandos then insert behind as the bosses biker mob hits.

It is a thing of beauty.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/479271.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/479271.page GMT Best Melee Army? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/479312.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/479312.page GMT Best Melee Army? Inv or cover save and swamp you.

Tyranid close combat stuff, I think, is currently overcosted. So Hormagaunts are fast. They are 10 points for T3 and a bare minimum save, even more expensive with upgrades. Orks will laugh at them. Rending is nerfed, so I think the rending upgrades are a bit overcosted now. Stealers are still good in certain situations, but Raveners and Lictors were all but killed off by the new combat rules. At least Lictors still give preferred enemy
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/479336.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/479336.page GMT Best Melee Army? CSM's.

lots of powerful CC HQ's, troops, beasties, and I havent really had any problems with nob bikers when I hit them with a squad of zerks. (easy to do when you tarpit them with a big unit of lesser daemons the turn before).

I would not argue that orks are probably the most powerful CC army, but I feel CSM's are a more effective one. they have better staying power for being MEQ, have access to MC's, and in general benifits from higher base str, WS and I.

Khorne daemons (especilly skar lists) are probably the most brutal CC army, but that power is dificult to direct effectivley.

I do think that orks would not be in the running for top CC army if it were not for nob bikers. they are sick, no doubt, but an opponent who faces them often will develop tactics enough for dealing with them, and your group's metagame could change to include lots of anti-nob-biker units and weapons. best not to rely one one unit to cary you through all the time.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/480013.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/480013.page GMT Best Melee Army? CC army.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/480240.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/480240.page GMT Best Melee Army? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/480284.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/480284.page GMT Best Melee Army? HtH army. With eternal warrior widespread and the ability to take either a godzilla list or blood crusher list, there isint too much that can stand up to that kind of HtH. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/480306.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/480306.page GMT Best Melee Army? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/480408.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/480408.page GMT Best Melee Army? cc army. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/480444.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/480444.page GMT Best Melee Army? ftw. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/480743.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/480743.page GMT Best Melee Army? CC and shooty.

you can totally do a CC + Shooty list that will outshoot a shooty list and out CC an All CC list.



best CC unit in the game = Nobz Bikers followed by Bloodcrushers

Nobz bikers wins hands down because they can handle any threat. Bloodcrushers cant handle tanks or walkers also crushers are slow and suffer from random arrival via deepstrike

armies in order I think

Orks
Chaos Deamons
Tyranids

other armies can be argued either way....since they have CC specialist but the entire army doesnt specialize in CC.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/480762.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/480762.page GMT Best Melee Army? cc not best cc+shooting, its nids.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/480787.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/480787.page GMT Best Melee Army? CC as they used to be. Still respectable, but the rending nerf makes a huge difference.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/480814.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/480814.page GMT Best Melee Army? CSM and Orks and for what it's worth, I kick butt much faster with Orks. Lash helps a lot for the CSMs, but I don't think it makes up for pure number of attacks that the Orks can dish out.

Thalor]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/480867.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/480867.page GMT Best Melee Army?
Xav wrote:The title says best cc not best cc+shooting, its nids.


1st - off read what he asked for take note of this line:

"Unless it's like... orks and somehow might be amazing at both, I Don't know how things are in this edition"

2nd- Nidz is your opinion and I gave mine.


]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/480971.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/480971.page GMT Best Melee Army? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/480978.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/480978.page GMT Best Melee Army?
Xav wrote:Hive tyrant vs warboss.


whats your point?


They have almost the same stats assuming the boss is on a bike with PK and Attack squig (standard setup) and the tyrant has 2 sets of scything talons. Only the Warboss is STR 10 wounds on 2+ and Tyrant is STR 6 and wounds on 4+ So it can go either way. Warboss has slight advantage I think

Another problem is that the boss is running around in a unit while the tyrant is usually all alone and half the time already has wound from shooting...so in most cases he'd lose


You have to give better examples as to wy Nidz are the best.....Tyrant is one model and is hardly a CC god. A daemon prince with warptime can pwn a hive tyrant. that does not make chaos marines the best CC army.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/481003.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/481003.page GMT Best Melee Army? CC, orks are built for a good old shooty, cc army, i just think CC wise nids are supieror.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/481016.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/481016.page GMT Re:Best Melee Army? CC army.

It's not their base stats that make them good, or their wargear or their units its a combination of those facets and the facts that they are 6 points a model.

Think about it this way, for 1100 points you can take 5 mobz of boyz that are 30 strong. Each mob has a nob with a PK and Bosspole. That is 150 boyz wih either shootas or sluggas or a combo of the two from mob to mob.

For 1490 points you could have a Big Mek with KFF, a Big Mek with a Forcefield, a mob of 14 Lootas and the aforementioned 150 boyz. Total that is 166 models and would a lot of people pause for thought it that were arrayed against them.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/481022.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/481022.page GMT Best Melee Army? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/481026.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/481026.page GMT Best Melee Army?
Xav wrote:Nids are built for CC, orks are built for a good old shooty, cc army, i just think CC wise nids are supieror.


Considering the current Codex's, Tyranids are out priced for their abilities compared to Ork's.

If you created a pure CC Ork army, currently, it'd be better than Tyranids.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/481029.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/481029.page GMT Best Melee Army?
Xav wrote:Nids are built for CC, orks are built for a good old shooty, cc army, i just think CC wise nids are supieror.


ahhh finally you used the proper wording "I think"

although I have to disagree:

Both Armies can do either Pure CC, Pure Shooty, or a mix

My opinion is that Orks Excel at all three of these types over Tyranids.

In the end your dealing with a 5th vs a 4th edition Codex. When/If Tyranids get a new book in 5th we can talk about who is better on a more even standing.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/481030.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/481030.page GMT Best Melee Army? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/481036.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/481036.page GMT Best Melee Army?
Xav wrote:True, but nids have some nifty close combat builds, and can be horde or nidzilla.



Nifty as in what? aside from outflanking Geanstealers there is really nothing nifty about nids CC.

Nid horde is gone in 5th. nomore outnumber in Combat. its all about the amount of wounds you can do....and gaunts die in droves so they will lose combat. Not to mention your basic gaunt is 5 points Your basic ork is 6 points Orks>Gaunt

Nidzilla is still good and is about the only type of tyranid lists you see. but it is far from the best CC compaired to orks.

again Orks>Nidzilla
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/481106.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/481106.page GMT Best Melee Army? HtH superiority.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/481166.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/481166.page GMT Best Melee Army? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/481170.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/481170.page GMT Best Melee Army? HtH Tyrant kills a Warboss 7 out of 10 fights because of Implant attack and 4 attacks at WS 6 and S 6. Warboss will lose 1 attack and is at WS 5. Higher Initative also helps. \

Deamons with a Bloodcrusher/Fateweaver build dismantle orks in HtH. Its combat resolution that kills more ork armies than any other shooting. Beserkers can kill a squad of orks, the same with Harlies, Genestealers, bloodletters. You can take out 1/2 a squad of orks on the charge with little damage in return in the form of the nob and the rest of the squad crumbles in combat rez. Orks only got numbers and numbers mean nothing in 5th. 4th edition they were perhaps the best HtH army.

Most hard hitting Deamon Units are the Bloodcrushers, Deamonprinces, Soul Grinders, and Greater Deamon. Those mentioned can take a hit along with dish out a hit. Deamons get an invunerable save unlike Nids who simply have to take it. A tooled out Nid army for HtH can beat Deamons but its a bloody fight.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/481294.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/481294.page GMT Best Melee Army?
Of course, you can charge multiple units of stealers in there with some feeder tendril support, but then when you wipe them he gets to shoot your cc units off of tjhe table and charge whats left. I'm not convinced that Tyranids are really that up against the nastier lists these days in cc]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/481692.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/481692.page GMT Best Melee Army?
Many interesting points, having played orks, nids for a long while and demons since the codex came out I figure I could offer a thing or 2 in this discussion.

Demons: Interestingly enough where as orks used to be the army for gamblers it is demons that have taken the crown from them. The nature of the demons army, from first turn deployment to the deployment of every unit afterward, is that of chance. Blood crushers and greater demons are amazing, truly amazing, but a single dice roll can fug up your whole situation. A far off scatter can take add 2 turns to the time it takes your bloodcrusher units to get into combat. Not to mention scattering and losing units. Not as easy as it used to be in 4th but you better believe it happens. My all Khorne demon army is very powerful but I have lost games that looked like a piece of cake from the deepstrike and first turn rolls. Are they the best in melee? Honestly I have to say yes. Does that make them the best melee army? I believe no. I've never had a carnifex deepstrike off the board and die, and i've never had a squad of nob bikers not come out till turn 4.

Nids: One of the problems the nids have on the internet is that people remember them as how they used to be in 4th edition. When changes in the rules made them less potent. So because of this, in discussions they are rarely taken as they come, instead they are compared to the way they used to be, like comparing your current girlfriend to your ex. Orks have warboss and nob bikers, Demons have crushers and greater demons, nids have tyrants, broodlords, stealers, warriors, carnifexs, ect... all of which are 50 times more modifiable then the 3 option (horn, icon, fury) crushers or the mercedes-benz expensive (pricey as hell, but you do get what you pay for) nob bikers. Plus ZERO units in orks or demons get preferred enemy where if you play your cards (well plastics) much of your nids army will have it for less points then ONE FREAKIN POWERFIST. However, the strength in the army comes from the combination of brutal assault units and efficient shooty units. They do feature the widest selection of CC units of all the codexes. If they aren't the best in melee, they are damn close. But with the splendid shooting options they have are they the best straight melee army? No.

Orks: Ah the orks, back in 3rd playing a non-speedfreaks army meant you had a tough, tough, battle ahead of you. I played sloggin orks for years, when the new orks codex came out I switched it up and started running assault orks. Talk about night and day difference between 3e orks dex in 4e and new orks dex in 5e. One of the biggest things I think people miss is that nob bikers, though ridiculously evil, are very expensive and far from the orky way. For the points you can get much more variety and many more models on the board. I ran the uber nob biker units in the beginning cause I had the models left over from a armageddon KoS army but in truth they were just too many points. I'm not writing this to debate nob bikers i'm bringing up the point that if you take away the nob bikers, and the warboss, suddenly there aren't that many uber assault units anymore. Stormboys are great, kommandos do a good job as well, but 12 boys in a truck? the staying power just isn't there. And with leadership and no consolidation, lets be realistic, the orks win games, but its not from straight melee, like the nids, its from a combination of assaulty and shooty units. Best melee units? Probably, till they get scared. Best melee army? Not in my opinion.

CSM: Landraiders with lords with demon weapon, assault terminators on the cheap (think MoK with lighting claws), demon princes at 130 pts with wings, raptors with MoK, fearless beserkers at only 5 points more then a standard space marine with +1 attack/WS/fearless. You can tool the CSM codex to be many things, but tooled as a CC army they are just brutal! Since chaos doesn't have a corban dallas multipass nob biker-esque uber unit often they are completely overlooked. Across the board they have excellent assault options, hell even one of the best shooty units in the army (obliterators) can flamer and powerfist the crap out of somebody. I built a Khorne army for fun (well I proxied it and am building it currently) and I was AMAZED at how well it performed. It's not single uberunits that make it so good, its all of the good units that make it uber. Best melee army? Not the best, but without a doubt the most underrated, at least in this discussion.

I will say this, at least in 4e, the one army my buddy played had everyone going "oh S**T" after they played him was jeff's pure Wulfen army. Man that army liked to f#$^ my s&#$ up! Black templars deserve a nod because as a straight up melee army they are quiet competitive.


So what's the best? That'll get answer right after what's the best gun/car/sex position/candy/ect..

Grundel out]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/482078.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/482078.page GMT Best Melee Army? MC Hammer Marine Army with Mastercrafted thunderhammers and ++3 Stormshields. 20 of these terminators along with Vulkan can put a serious hurting to most of the above mentioned armies.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/482638.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/482638.page GMT Best Melee Army? CC army. Not even those pesky Jeans-Stealers have a chance.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/483218.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/483218.page GMT Re:Best Melee Army?
Bloodcrusher spam with Fateweaver and Soulgrinders beats both Zilla nidz and nob bikers/green tide in HtH superiority.



Second that. The top two are Crusher and Nob biker with a slight edge to Crusher all things being equal (playes skill ect). All others are 2nd tier.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/483856.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224571/483856.page GMT