<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "CSM (even dual lash) does not always = cookie-cutter"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/14.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net CSM (even dual lash) does not always = cookie-cutter UK GT last month had several CSM players with Lash finish in the top ten, but after Lash the builds were all different. Some used Oblits, some used Vindicators, some used Landraiders. Some used Plague Marines, some used Berserkers, one or two used Noise Marines. Mixes of the above were also present, of course. One of the top ten players had only a single lash.

In the final round of the Baltimore GT there were at least three of us with dual Lash on the top ten tables, and again our builds were all very different.

I don’t have the full list details from the UK; a friend of mine placed 6th overall with dual lash, and gave me the details above, but I’m kind of encouraged that people are using more than just the one build that gets mentioned ad infinitum, ad nauseum on this forum. Saturday my above-mentioned friend won a local competitive tournament using no lash; he used a Nurgle DP with flight and Rot, and a Khorne DP with flight, combined with an even mix of PMs and Berserkers, and a few oblits for fire support.

While a few units definitely have shown themselves to be winners, and extremely popular (oblits, DPs, PMs), from what I’ve seen not all competitive builds feature all of those ingredients, or even necessarily most of them.

For reference, these are the three 1750 Dual Lash builds I personally interacted with in Baltimore- mine and those of the two opponents I didn’t beat out of the five I faced.

My Baltimore 2008 GT list:

Daemon Prince with Wings, Mark of Slaanesh, Lash
Sorcerer with Flight, Mark of Slaanesh, Lash, Personal Icon

3 Terminators, 1 w/Chainfist & Heavy Flamer, 2 w/Power weapon & Combi-Plasma
5 Chosen CSMS, w/3 Flamers, 2 Meltaguns
In Rhino (with Smoke and Searchlight)
5 Chosen CSMS, w/3 Flamers, 2 Meltaguns
In Rhino (with Smoke and Searchlight)

10 Chaos Space Marines, with Icon of Chaos Glory, 2 Flamers, including Aspiring Champion with Power Fist
In Rhino (with Smoke and Searchlight)
5 Chaos Space Marines, with Icon of Chaos Glory, Meltagun
In Rhino (with Smoke and Searchlight)
5 Chaos Space Marines, with Icon of Chaos Glory, Plasmagun
8 Lesser Daemons

2 Obliterators
2 Obliterators
Vindicator

Total: 1749

My third round opponent’s list was roughly:
Daemon Prince with Wings, Mark of Slaanesh, Lash
Daemon Prince with Wings, Mark of Slaanesh, Lash
Greater Daemon

5 PMs in Rhino with Fist, two meltas
5 PMs in Rhino with Fist, two flamers
5 PMs in Rhino with two plasmas
8 Berserkers w/Fist

Vindicator
Vindicator
Landraider

My fifth round opponent’s list was roughly:
Daemon Prince with Wings, Mark of Slaanesh, Lash
Daemon Prince with Wings, Mark of Slaanesh, Lash
Greater Daemon

Chaos Dread w/Extra CCW, Possession
Chaos Dread w/Extra CCW, Possession
Chaos Dread w/Extra CCW, Possession

5 CSMs in Rhino (not sure on upgrades)
5 CSMs in Rhino (not sure on upgrades)
5 CSMs in Rhino (not sure on upgrades)
5 lesser daemons

Landraider
Defiler
Defiler


So the common element we’re seeing in these lists is the dual lash, Rhinos for mobility, and some large and small templates to reap substantial kills in combination with lash bunching. But the exact elements used are fairly different. Some of it is no doubt due to personal taste. But some of it is (IMO) likely because more units in the list really are competitive than just the few that people talk about over and over.

Any other theories on the reasons why we’re seeing divergence? Any units or different builds you particularly like?

Personally I think my next variant is going to swap the Chosen (or at least some of them) to beef up the Terminator squad to more of a hammer unit size, as opposed to the disposable drop element they are now. I'm also thinking about changing over to Warp Time or Rot prince instead of the Lash prince.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/480731.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/480731.page GMT Dual lash does not always = cookie-cutter http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/480747.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/480747.page GMT Dual lash does not always = cookie-cutter DP or sorcerer with the Mark of Slaanesh; used in place of shooting, targets a non-vehicle enemy unit within LOS and 24”. Move them 2d6” however you want, ignoring difficult terrain, and then they take a pinning test. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/480777.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/480777.page GMT Dual lash does not always = cookie-cutter 2d6 inches in any way you choose. You can move them into terrain, out of terrain, off of objectives, into template formations, out of or into charge range, etc.

Mannahnin beat me to it.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/480781.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/480781.page GMT Re:Dual lash does not always = cookie-cutter
I had two of these pitted against me in the Baltimore GT... but was playing 'Nids and this was devastating because he'd group my horde close and eradicate them with six small blast templates.

It hurt.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/480783.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/480783.page GMT Dual lash does not always = cookie-cutter http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/480788.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/480788.page GMT Dual lash does not always = cookie-cutter PM obliterator, and Nurgle and Khorne DP sounds pretty kick ass.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/480800.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/480800.page GMT Dual lash does not always = cookie-cutter
HungryTaz wrote: The Sorcerer may be mounted in the Rhino as well?


I’m definitely seeing more people support sorcerers in 5th. Being able to attach to a squad makes them less vulnerable to being shot than a DP. A sorc with bike, familiar, lash and warp time does HtH against infantry almost as well as a DP, as well as being able to lash. There’s also the warp time/wind of chaos combo option, which is nasty in HtH and lays out a pretty brutal flamer template.

Xav wrote: Well the beserker, PM obliterator, and Nurgle and Khorne DP sounds pretty kick ass.


It’s a neat variation. Very nasty in HtH (Nurgle’s Rot is particularly awesome against hordes), but without the stigma sometimes attached to the lash.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/480877.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/480877.page GMT Dual lash does not always = cookie-cutter
Mannahnin wrote:
HungryTaz wrote: The Sorcerer may be mounted in the Rhino as well?


I’m definitely seeing more people support sorcerers in 5th. Being able to attach to a squad makes them less vulnerable to being shot than a DP. A sorc with bike, familiar, lash and warp time does HtH against infantry almost as well as a DP, as well as being able to lash. There’s also the warp time/wind of chaos combo option, which is nasty in HtH and lays out a pretty brutal flamer template.

Xav wrote: Well the beserker, PM obliterator, and Nurgle and Khorne DP sounds pretty kick ass.


It’s a neat variation. Very nasty in HtH (Nurgle’s Rot is particularly awesome against hordes), but without the stigma sometimes attached to the lash.


The problem with Sorcerors is, say you put a Sorcerer on a bike w/ slaanesh lash. He costs at least 155 points. Can be instakilled by one powerfist attack, or the unit he's with can be dakka'd away. If they were troops guarding him, then they might not be able to hold an objective, or they might run away, kill points, etc.

A Daemon Prince with wings and lash only costs the exact same 155 points as a bike sorceror, and he's immune to instant death, fast and free to move without worrying about a large retinue around him, monstrous creature so he can chop a tank apart like that sorceror can't.

If my opponent expends all his energy trying to hunt down my mobile and dangerous Princes, then he's ignoring the rest of my army.

I would rather have 1 Daemon Prince and 9 Bikers hunting down any Lascannon squads while my prince is safe and hiding, than 1 Sorceror in a group with 9 bikes.

I don't see a reason to take a Sorceror unless he's going to use Lash. They cost so many points for being pretty mediocre, plus you have to hide them in a unit. As soon as the opponent kills his bodyguard, the sorceror is pretty much a free kill in comparison to a DP.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/480987.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/480987.page GMT CSM (even dual lash) does not always = cookie-cutter http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/481259.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/481259.page GMT CSM (even dual lash) does not always = cookie-cutter
Hq 310
Deamon Prince Mark of Slaanesh Lash of Submission Wings 155
Deamon Prince Mark of Slaanesh Lash of Submission Wings 155

Elites 420
5 Terminators Icon of Khorne 1x Chainfist 1x Heavy Flamer 200
Land Raider 220

Troops 645
8 Noise Marines 7x Sonic Blasters 1x Blastmaster 235
8 Noise Marines 7x Sonic Blasters 1x Blastmaster 235
7 Noise Marines 7x Sonic Blasters 175

Heavy Support 375
3x Chaos Vindicators 375
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/482131.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/482131.page GMT Re:CSM (even dual lash) does not always = cookie-cutter CSM squads? Even with MOCG, their low numbers scare me. I also notice you don't even have MOCG on the Chosen, rationale?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/482152.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/482152.page GMT CSM (even dual lash) does not always = cookie-cutter
Use Lash to move enemy unit and smoke them. Cheese comes in a lot of flavors but it still cheese. Hmmm Smoked Gouda Love It.

...he used a Nurgle DP with flight and Rot, and a Khorne DP with flight, combined with an even mix of PMs and Berserkers, and a few oblits for fire support.


Now that I would like to see more details on.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/482205.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/482205.page GMT CSM (even dual lash) does not always = cookie-cutter
The variety of supporting casts that you see surrounding the Lash Prince(s)/Sorcerer(s) is not so much something that indicates a suddenly heretofore unseen potential variety for army builds in Codex:CSM, rather, it points even more clearly to how powerful an ability Lash is itself.

Regardless of how you compliment the Lash equipped models with other choices from the army list, the tactic is the same:

Move your opponents models in such a fashion that they are unable to support one another, isolate units for easy elimination, and prevent their effectively holding/contesting objectives.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/482218.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/482218.page GMT CSM (even dual lash) does not always = cookie-cutter
Tribune wrote:Ragnar, great post and thought provoking as ever. What's your mileage with those 5-man CSM squads? Even with MOCG, their low numbers scare me. I also notice you don't even have MOCG on the Chosen, rationale?


The low numbers are a bit tricky, but I use the five man Troops units (and sometimes the daemons, if they arrive turn 2) conservatively. They’re usually farthest from the enemy, and able to make best use of cover (including from Rhinos). There are almost always closer threats for my opponents to worry about.

The Chosen I kept as cheap as possible. I figure either they’re going to be positioned so as to be shielded from counter-attack, or they’re going to just die anyway if my opponent’s able to focus on them. In the event that my opponent DOES only allocate a little bit of firepower to them, Ld10 usually keeps them steady. There have certainly been occasions on which I’ve wanted an Icon there as a teleport homer or for summoning. Sometimes my daemons or termies show up late and I really want some more stuff to join the Chosen in the enemy backfield. As I mentioned, my next planned variation will probably lose one or both of the chosen squads to beef up the terminators. But I’m thinking that later I will try a more aggressive variation, possibly without the oblits (maybe taking a single squad of three and dropping the vindicator) to add both more termies and more lesser daemons, at which point the chosen’s utility as an additional summoning platform will be more important.

The biggest issue I have with my current list is that it follows a design paradigm I've been comfortable with since early 3rd edition-lots of cheap disposable maneuver elements. This form still works very well in objective missions, but can be vulnerable in kill point games.

Saldiven wrote:The variety of supporting casts that you see surrounding the Lash Prince(s)/Sorcerer(s) is not so much something that indicates a suddenly heretofore unseen potential variety for army builds in Codex:CSM, rather, it points even more clearly to how powerful an ability Lash is itself.

Move your opponents models in such a fashion that they are unable to support one another, isolate units for easy elimination, and prevent their effectively holding/contesting objectives.


But that’s the tactic of the lash, not the tactic for the whole army. Yes, it’s a powerful ability. And yes, it synergizes both with shooting and assault. But it does not make up the whole army, and the success of different builds means that the way the army plays is not locked into just one form. Variety in the competitive builds means that the codex can give more varied play experiences than we originally thought. Even if the lash part were always the same, the way the rest of the army works can display some real variation. I think there is a legitimate complaint that the Lash has become a bit of a crutch. Without it, fighting certain armies (particularly horde orks) can be extremely difficult. But I think that the success of other HQ options (such as warp time + wind of chaos Sorcerers, and Nurgle DPs) shows that even this crutch isn’t completely essential.

Mostly I’m happy to say that my experience and observations have been that not all chaos armies boil down to the same core of 2x lash prince, 9x oblits, and Plague Marines for Troops.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/482436.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/482436.page GMT CSM (even dual lash) does not always = cookie-cutter
2 lash princes
10 noise marines (doom siren/PF champ, sonic blasters)
10 noise marines (sonic blaster/PF champ, sonic blasters)
10 noise maries (doom siren/PW champ, blastmaster)
3x Land Raider

It worked pretty well in playtesting, the landraiders are big enough to hide the princes in the 5th ed TLOS world.

I ended up switching out one LR+cargo in favour of a dreadnought, 2 oblits, 6 daemons, and 6 noise marines w/ blastmaster, for a little more variety in the "how does this look" field, and it still played ok.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/482474.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/482474.page GMT CSM (even dual lash) does not always = cookie-cutter fo them though, as I like a tzeentch warptime prince to beef up combat.

My lists usually look like:

winged lash prince
winged tzeentch warptime prince
3 x 8 csm rhino, AC with pf, mg, IoCG

+
2x 8 raptros, AC with pf, 2mg, IoCG
or landraider + slaanesh LC terms
or 2x 8 zerkers in rhinos, AC with pf or PW
or 8 zerkers in rhino + 8 NM in rhino with sonic blasters, doom siren and pf on champ.

I usually only use lash once or twice a game since I don't load up on template weapons, lash is usually just used to bring a squad into charge range our out of cover so the grenadeless dp's can still go in init order.

I usually get more mileage out of the tzeentch dp than the slaanesh one. My list would work just as well without lash, but I already am crigning at runnign zerkers and the tzeentch prince from a purist point of view. To make it all work my tzeentch dp is a modified dreadnaught thus accoutning for his improved save, and my zerkers are all pink to fit in with the list.

I have no problems with dual lash, it is a good and strong ability, and I wouldn't think to tell people not to use the good and strong things from thier codex. I think everyone would have been happier if there were a few more builds on par with lash and dula lash though, so that it would have more variety and be much more interesting to play with and against more varied lists.

Meph




]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/482672.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/482672.page GMT CSM (even dual lash) does not always = cookie-cutter
Mephistoles1 wrote:

I have no problems with dual lash, it is a good and strong ability, and I wouldn't think to tell people not to use the good and strong things from thier codex. I think everyone would have been happier if there were a few more builds on par with lash and dula lash though, so that it would have more variety and be much more interesting to play with and against more varied lists.

Meph



Yeah, don't listen to people that are crying because chaos has a weapon that works.

Do we have fancy sternguard with super magic bullets? No.

Ninja squads that can deepstrike and assault on the same turn? No.

Landraiders that can hold 16 models and can fire guns on the move better than chaos? Nope.

Landraiders with super flamers or things? Nope.

Dreadnaughts that are reliable and with assault cannon pwnage? That don't kill your own troops? Nope.

Ability to split 10 CSM into two 5man squads so that one with a super cheap heavy weapon can fire it while 5 are able to move around and fight? Nope.

Ability to choose to fail a morale test and run away so opponent gets shot to death? Nope.

Terminators with a 3+ invulnerable save in combat and instakilling stuff, plus if they wound a hive tyrant or whatever once, then he strikes at iniative 1 next turn? Nope.

A leader with a random S10 AP1 ordinance blast? Nope.

People want to nerf the few things about chaos that are decent. Chaos would just be worse than Space Marines in every way. Also, lacking all the tons of special character/special ability combos.

How many space marine special characters chop their own teammates to death?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/484496.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/484496.page GMT CSM (even dual lash) does not always = cookie-cutter
G]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/484546.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/484546.page GMT Re:CSM (even dual lash) does not always = cookie-cutter CC in 5th edition and tried my best to basically drive opponents into the ground with multiple assaults in which they could not win. If I was in CC, I was winning.

Daemon Prince with Wings, Mark of Slaanesh, Lash
Daemon Prince with Wings, Mark of Slaanesh, Lash
Greater Daemon

Chaos Dread w/Extra CCW Heavy flamer
Chaos Dread w/Extra CCW Heavy flamer
Chaos Dread w/Extra CCW Heavy flamer

5 CSMs in Rhino (Mark ofundevided, asp Champ)
5 CSMs in Rhino (Mark ofundevided, asp Champ)
5 CSMs in Rhino (Mark ofundevided, asp Champ)
5 lesser daemons

Landraider
Defiler
Defiler


The small CSM squads usually arrive via reserves, sans one for emergency DP/deamon disembarkation on turn 2... They snatch up objectives and rapidfire stuff late game. I think of rhinos as a forcefield for squads... youhave to pop the field to get at the unit... not an easy task if you do not have Meltas.

I did plague marines/oblits for the ardboyz and it was a sooooo boring, static and really just not fun. I toyed around with different combinations and found that the dreads only work when you tear off their shooty aspect and just run them head long into the enemy. 9 attacks on the charge is just nuts with an "insane" roll.

My loss at Baltimore GT was against Double lash/oblit/Plague Marines... ironic.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/484654.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/484654.page GMT CSM (even dual lash) does not always = cookie-cutter
DP, MoNurgle, Wings, Warptime
Sorcerer, MoSlaanesh, Lash
8 Plague Marines, 2 meltaguns, champ with fist
8 Plague Marines, 2 meltaguns, champ with fist
8 Plague Marines, 2 plasma guns, champ with fist
7 Noise Marines, 6 sonic blasters, 1 blastmaster
7 Noise Marines, 6 sonic blasters, 1 blastmaster
2 Oblits
2 Oblits

I used to play with all Nurgle, and while it's resilient as heck, it's not so good at much else. The NM should help throw out some pretty decent firepower and keep things away from me for a while. Played a variant on this at ArdBoyz and did pretty well, so I'm gonna see how it works at a lower level.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/484777.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/484777.page GMT CSM (even dual lash) does not always = cookie-cutter
tzeentchling wrote:This is the one I'm thinking of running for the next tournament:

DP, MoNurgle, Wings, Warptime
Sorcerer, MoSlaanesh, Lash
8 Plague Marines, 2 meltaguns, champ with fist
8 Plague Marines, 2 meltaguns, champ with fist
8 Plague Marines, 2 plasma guns, champ with fist
7 Noise Marines, 6 sonic blasters, 1 blastmaster
7 Noise Marines, 6 sonic blasters, 1 blastmaster
2 Oblits
2 Oblits

I used to play with all Nurgle, and while it's resilient as heck, it's not so good at much else. The NM should help throw out some pretty decent firepower and keep things away from me for a while. Played a variant on this at ArdBoyz and did pretty well, so I'm gonna see how it works at a lower level.


I don't see any reason for someone to use a sorcerer instead of a 2nd Prince. The sorcerer's squad still has to expose itself just as much as the DP would if it's gonna ever use Lash. And when it does, it can be mass annihilated by plasma cannons, rocket launchers, even mass infantry fire. When the lil bodyguard is dead, the opponent has 7 less noise marines, 6 sonic blasters, 1 blastmaster, and 1 sorcerer less to deal with, since they are all dead.

It'd be better to have the daemon prince die alone while your army tears apart the enemy than spend the same points on a sorcerer and have him + his whole unit eradicated.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/484856.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/484856.page GMT CSM (even dual lash) does not always = cookie-cutter CSM army in RTTs:

2 winged DPs w/ MoS, lash
10 Termies
2x 8 NM w/ power weapon, doom siren
8 NM w/ sonic blasters
3x 2 Obliterators.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/484929.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/484929.page GMT Re:CSM (even dual lash) does not always = cookie-cutter
theblklotus wrote:This was my list. I build it around the monsters/conversions. I love CC in 5th edition and tried my best to basically drive opponents into the ground with multiple assaults in which they could not win. If I was in CC, I was winning.

Daemon Prince with Wings, Mark of Slaanesh, Lash
Daemon Prince with Wings, Mark of Slaanesh, Lash
Greater Daemon

Chaos Dread w/Extra CCW Heavy flamer
Chaos Dread w/Extra CCW Heavy flamer
Chaos Dread w/Extra CCW Heavy flamer

5 CSMs in Rhino (Mark ofundevided, asp Champ)
5 CSMs in Rhino (Mark ofundevided, asp Champ)
5 CSMs in Rhino (Mark ofundevided, asp Champ)
5 lesser daemons

Landraider
Defiler
Defiler


The small CSM squads usually arrive via reserves, sans one for emergency DP/deamon disembarkation on turn 2... They snatch up objectives and rapidfire stuff late game. I think of rhinos as a forcefield for squads... youhave to pop the field to get at the unit... not an easy task if you do not have Meltas.

I did plague marines/oblits for the ardboyz and it was a sooooo boring, static and really just not fun. I toyed around with different combinations and found that the dreads only work when you tear off their shooty aspect and just run them head long into the enemy. 9 attacks on the charge is just nuts with an "insane" roll.

My loss at Baltimore GT was against Double lash/oblit/Plague Marines... ironic.



I was looking over the lists and the LR in this one kinda seems out of place.......just wondering why it's there and how/why you played with it since all your squads have rhinos or can't be put in a LR. Seems like losing it would open you up a lot more options for the points of LR.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/485524.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/485524.page GMT Re:CSM (even dual lash) does not always = cookie-cutter
just2fierce wrote:
theblklotus wrote:This was my list. I build it around the monsters/conversions. I love CC in 5th edition and tried my best to basically drive opponents into the ground with multiple assaults in which they could not win. If I was in CC, I was winning.

Daemon Prince with Wings, Mark of Slaanesh, Lash
Daemon Prince with Wings, Mark of Slaanesh, Lash
Greater Daemon

Chaos Dread w/Extra CCW Heavy flamer
Chaos Dread w/Extra CCW Heavy flamer
Chaos Dread w/Extra CCW Heavy flamer

5 CSMs in Rhino (Mark ofundevided, asp Champ)
5 CSMs in Rhino (Mark ofundevided, asp Champ)
5 CSMs in Rhino (Mark ofundevided, asp Champ)
5 lesser daemons

Landraider
Defiler
Defiler


The small CSM squads usually arrive via reserves, sans one for emergency DP/deamon disembarkation on turn 2... They snatch up objectives and rapidfire stuff late game. I think of rhinos as a forcefield for squads... youhave to pop the field to get at the unit... not an easy task if you do not have Meltas.

I did plague marines/oblits for the ardboyz and it was a sooooo boring, static and really just not fun. I toyed around with different combinations and found that the dreads only work when you tear off their shooty aspect and just run them head long into the enemy. 9 attacks on the charge is just nuts with an "insane" roll.

My loss at Baltimore GT was against Double lash/oblit/Plague Marines... ironic.



I was looking over the lists and the LR in this one kinda seems out of place.......just wondering why it's there and how/why you played with it since all your squads have rhinos or can't be put in a LR. Seems like losing it would open you up a lot more options for the points of LR.



Yeah, have to agree. LRs are too expensive to be a stationary gun platform w/ no transporting. 2 TL Lascannons for 220 points shooting at same target. 1 Lascannon shot if it moves at all.

A 3rd Defiler or Vindicator or 3 Obliterators would be far more firepower.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/485617.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/485617.page GMT Re:CSM (even dual lash) does not always = cookie-cutter http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/485644.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/485644.page GMT Re:CSM (even dual lash) does not always = cookie-cutter 40k universe that really threaten destruction of my mobile Greater Deamon Deployment system is a melta gun... if you come that close to my army in any way... you die. So good luck with that.

I put a small CSM squad w/asp champ in it and drive it right up to an objective or tank shocking. Landraiders really are REALLY good. In annihilation games...sitting and shooting was just fine too. I never regretted putting it in my list. For objective grabbing/contesting... you cant beat it.

Most games (the exception being Mannahnin) I drove the raider up and into the opponents face. Any shooting at it was shooting that did not blow up my defilers/dreads. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/485763.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/485763.page GMT CSM (even dual lash) does not always = cookie-cutter
TheBloodGod wrote:I don't see any reason for someone to use a sorcerer instead of a 2nd Prince. The sorcerer's squad still has to expose itself just as much as the DP would if it's gonna ever use Lash. And when it does, it can be mass annihilated by plasma cannons, rocket launchers, even mass infantry fire. When the lil bodyguard is dead, the opponent has 7 less noise marines, 6 sonic blasters, 1 blastmaster, and 1 sorcerer less to deal with, since they are all dead.

It'd be better to have the daemon prince die alone while your army tears apart the enemy than spend the same points on a sorcerer and have him + his whole unit eradicated.


A Prince might be better, but would be 30 points more expensive. Plus, I have a nice model for the sorcerer. He'd usually go with the PMs anyway, since their shooting is not as important (Lash means you can only shoot with the unit at the target you lash, which is not always best/needed). And you're right, if they put everything they have into a squad, it will likely fall. But it's gonna take a heck of a lot of firepower to do this, given my likely 4+ cover save and FNP. And that's assuming that they fear Lash that much. If they can take out a PM squad and attached sorcerer in one round of shooting, I'm probably screwed with this army anyway. I've not run into the tournament army yet (at least in my area) that can, save perhaps Guard armies with lots of ordnance. And in comp tournaments, it looks good to not have dual Princes, let alone dual Lash princes.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/486086.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/486086.page GMT Re:CSM (even dual lash) does not always = cookie-cutter
I've been out of warhammer for a while and I'm just getting back into it so I'm not aware of the current player field. You said a lot of the top 10 finishers in a GT were "2 lash chaos". Is that because the list does very well or because the field is saturated with chaos players?

Also what are some of the weaknesses of a 2 lash chaos list. Is psychic hood an important adjustment for a shooting army or are there better ways to counter this list that have more value vs lists without psychic powers?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/486121.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/486121.page GMT Re:CSM (even dual lash) does not always = cookie-cutter
Luckbox Sillypants wrote:Hi

I've been out of warhammer for a while and I'm just getting back into it so I'm not aware of the current player field. You said a lot of the top 10 finishers in a GT were "2 lash chaos". Is that because the list does very well or because the field is saturated with chaos players?

Also what are some of the weaknesses of a 2 lash chaos list. Is psychic hood an important adjustment for a shooting army or are there better ways to counter this list that have more value vs lists without psychic powers?

I found that at the GT Heat this year, there was only one player qualifiying with 2 lash DPs.

In the final, exactly this player showed up with double lash, but didn't very well. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/486129.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/486129.page GMT CSM (even dual lash) does not always = cookie-cutter
tzeentchling wrote:
TheBloodGod wrote:I don't see any reason for someone to use a sorcerer instead of a 2nd Prince. The sorcerer's squad still has to expose itself just as much as the DP would if it's gonna ever use Lash. And when it does, it can be mass annihilated by plasma cannons, rocket launchers, even mass infantry fire. When the lil bodyguard is dead, the opponent has 7 less noise marines, 6 sonic blasters, 1 blastmaster, and 1 sorcerer less to deal with, since they are all dead.

It'd be better to have the daemon prince die alone while your army tears apart the enemy than spend the same points on a sorcerer and have him + his whole unit eradicated.


A Prince might be better, but would be 30 points more expensive. Plus, I have a nice model for the sorcerer. He'd usually go with the PMs anyway, since their shooting is not as important (Lash means you can only shoot with the unit at the target you lash, which is not always best/needed). And you're right, if they put everything they have into a squad, it will likely fall. But it's gonna take a heck of a lot of firepower to do this, given my likely 4+ cover save and FNP. And that's assuming that they fear Lash that much. If they can take out a PM squad and attached sorcerer in one round of shooting, I'm probably screwed with this army anyway. I've not run into the tournament army yet (at least in my area) that can, save perhaps Guard armies with lots of ordnance. And in comp tournaments, it looks good to not have dual Princes, let alone dual Lash princes.


Well, yeah, if the prince has wings and the sorcerer is a footslogger with no mobility. Then it's a 30 point difference. 10 if they both have mobility. And your bare-bones sorcerer has 0 chance of hurting a tank ever. The prince has the possibility of chopping a landraider in half.

A list with a sorcerer instead of prince is pretty similar, but it's one less threat for the enemy and one less guy with defensive/offensive power (not to mention, it's just as big a Shoot-Me target). You save 10-30 points and you get a Lash. You with no awesome monstrous eternal-warrior killing machine.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/486141.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/486141.page GMT Re:CSM (even dual lash) does not always = cookie-cutter NM as the core for all the firepower of the sonic blasters and the MEQ hate of the Doom Siren.....any of you guys ever lashed a squad of assault marines...then Doom Siren the whole 10 man squad with 2 flamer templates?

I run my list something like this most of the time

LP with wings
LP with wings

2x 9 NM and AC with DS and PW all sonic Blasters and Rhinos
1x 8 NM and AC with DS and PW all sonic Blasters and Rhinos

10 Lesser Daemons
5-8 Chosen with 5 meltaguns or plasmaguns and Rhino

Defiler
2x Obliterators

It has done very well for me in 4 tourneys now I have won 10 drawn 1 and lost 1..........Drawing with NIDZILLA and losing to Epidemius Daemon Army(first time ever playing against Daemons) any MEQ I have played has been very lopsided in my favor except for a DH army that my friend has....all 3 games have been very very close but I managed to pull them off as minimal victories....PAGK are very underrated IMO....

How have the lesser Daemon units fared for everyone else? I love them.......they have never failed to be worth well over the 130 points i paid for them....

Sometimes I wonder about dropping the chosen squad and maybe some PW for 2 more oblits and another squad of 10 Lesser Daemons but I don't have the models to try it yet...

Phillip]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/487280.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/487280.page GMT Re:CSM (even dual lash) does not always = cookie-cutter
LP with wings
LP with wings

2x 9 NM and AC with DS and PW all sonic Blasters and Rhinos
1x 8 NM and AC with DS and PW all sonic Blasters and Rhinos

10 Lesser Daemons
5-8 Chosen with 5 meltaguns or plasmaguns and Rhino

Defiler
2x Obliterators

Do you let the Chosen outflank?

If the Daemons arrive at the beginning of turn 2, your Rhinos might not be close enough to a front ranks of a shooty army. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/487305.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/487305.page GMT CSM (even dual lash) does not always = cookie-cutter
They usually do outflank, depending on the army I'm playing against and whether or not they have plas/melta loadout.

I enjoy playing with the army and it is flexible enough to let you be agressive/assaulty or static and very shooty because of the I5 and weaponry loadout...
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/487408.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/487408.page GMT CSM (even dual lash) does not always = cookie-cutter
- When you fire a gun at a unit with different Toughness characteristics you can then choose which one to roll against to wound.

Just thought I'd let you know, it's the only way to get rid of ICs in a squad of guys.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/489400.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/489400.page GMT CSM (even dual lash) does not always = cookie-cutter
Billie_Joe wrote:A side note on attaching the Lash Sorc to the Plague squad.

- When you fire a gun at a unit with different Toughness characteristics you can then choose which one to roll against to wound.

Just thought I'd let you know, it's the only way to get rid of ICs in a squad of guys.

Well, the player of the unit shot can assign wounds to his/her models independent of toughness. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/489529.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224848/489529.page GMT