<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "A draw, Almost tabled, need help"]]>

<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "A draw, Almost tabled, need help"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/69.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net A draw, Almost tabled, need help
i set up a 1k game friendly against a tau player

my first mistake, now we were playing on a 4x6 board, 2 big bits of terrain, 4 small. all good.

now the mission was seize ground, 3 objects.

Here are the army lists, im eldar

Eldar: ME

HQ
Maugan Ra 195

Troops
10 wraithguard 384
-spiritseer
-singing spear

3 Jetbikes 76
-1 cannon

3 Jetbikes 76
-1 cannon

Heavy
War Walker 90
-2 brightlances

3 War Walkers 180
-6 scatter lasers

Tau

HQ

shas el
-Twin linked flamer, black sun filter 59pts

elite

Shas`ui
-Twin linked flamer, black sun filter 34pts
Shas`ui
-Twin linked flamer, black sun filter 34pts
shas`ui
-Twin linked flamer, black sun filter 34pts

Shas`ui
-Twin linked flamer, black sun filter 34pts
Shas`ui
-Twin linked flamer, black sun filter 34pts
shas`ui
-Twin linked flamer, black sun filter 34pts

Shas`ui
-Twin linked flamer, black sun filter 34pts
Shas`ui
-Twin linked flamer, black sun filter 34pts
shas`ui
-Twin linked flamer, black sun filter 34pts

Troops

firewarriors
-10 firewarriors, carbines, shas`ui, bonding knife 115pts

firewarriors
-10 firewarriors, carbines, shas`ui, bonding knife 115pts

Kroot

-12 kroot 84pts

-14 kroot 98pts

Heavy support

Broad side, black sun filter 73pts

Broad side, black sun filter 73pts

Broad side, black sun filter 73pts

now as it went i took ou all kroot, 1 broadside, and wounded another, and killed 8 fire warriors. i was left with 2 war walkers with scatters, 7 wraithguard +spiritseer and thats it. his tactics were to sit back and shoot with everything, including kroot and hey

hurt. he held 2 objects and i had 1, i managed a draw by on the last turn for the whole game shoot with my 2 war walkers at one of the fire warrior squads sitting on the objective and killing half and making them run out of claiming range, dumb luck though.

Can anyone help me to as why i got slaughter so bad?
If you need more info, just ask
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/481405.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/481405.page GMT A draw, Almost tabled, need help One other thing I like to do against Tau is to rush and get his big guns in close combat where he has poor stats and cannot fire those big guns.
I don't know the size of the terrain, but was 25% of the board covered with terrain? If not, the board is more advantageous to shooters. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/481451.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/481451.page GMT A draw, Almost tabled, need help http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/481587.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/481587.page GMT A draw, Almost tabled, need help http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/481632.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/481632.page GMT A draw, Almost tabled, need help http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/481642.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/481642.page GMT A draw, Almost tabled, need help
Were you deep striking those crisis suits to try to get those flamers into range? Did that 1/3 of your points actually get in range to shoot anything?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/481997.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/481997.page GMT A draw, Almost tabled, need help
he only started moving turn 3 but did get in range and if i was assaulty then he would have gunned me]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/482009.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/482009.page GMT Re:A draw, Almost tabled, need help

Assuming that the broadsides took out your war walkers, that seems a bit unlucky on your part.

For me, I would have had the bright lance squad kill broadsides instead of Shas'ui. I assume the turbo laser squad and the bikes were busy killing kroot and fire warriors. Did the wraithguard get in range to shoot anything?
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/482035.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/482035.page GMT A draw, Almost tabled, need help
...

Wow. Things have changed since I played Tau.

It does seem that you had very little in the way of long-range anti-armour weaponry, coupled with lots of easy points for those Broadsides.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/482063.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/482063.page GMT A draw, Almost tabled, need help http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/482069.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/482069.page GMT Re:A draw, Almost tabled, need help
The war walker with bright lances and maugan ra seem like very expensive options in such a small battle. Maybe a basic farseer with fortune to add to your wraithguard would be nice as an HQ?

I'd also suggest giving the wraithguard spiritseer conceal or destructor and dropping the singing spear. When you get in range to throw it, that one str 9 attack won't matter with all those wraithguard firing as well.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/482125.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/482125.page GMT A draw, Almost tabled, need help 1) You played against tau at 1000 points. Tau are stronger at low point levels than most other armies. It's the higher points values (2000+) when they start their downfall

2) Your list is not a good list against Tau.

You need to close with him & close fast.

I'd be more likely to take Warlocks, bike units, tricked out Falcons, transports on anything that I can.
Forget the Wraithguard. too pricey at this low points. Warwalkers are fust too fragile.

Fast vehicles with ALL the tricks and HtH combat squads are your friends.

Troops with Lance Weapons (What's the cheap one for you? Guardians. Right?).

Striking Scorp's, F Dragons & Banshees in Serpents will HURT the Tau. If you take bikes, take warlocks with them. A farseer would be a nice addition to something that you plan on getting locked in HtH with.

Also, 4x6 is a bit large for 1000 points. 4x4 is more appropriate.

...and, for God's sake... USE that terrain.

Eric
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/482716.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/482716.page GMT A draw, Almost tabled, need help
When I'm playing against armies with a basic weapon strength of 5 I try not to take small model count/ high toughness infantry/light vehicles

you were always in a bad position as Tau can kill wraithgaurd as their main strength (tough) gets countered by high strength weaponary.

your war walkers had target written all over them, especially the squadren of three, which is god send to a fire warrior squad trying to make their points back.

the jetbikes units are too small to take any fire, and the fact that Suits can JSJ counters your JSJ.

quite frankly i'd be impressed you did as well as you did, you must be some tactician.

go and give GBF some tips on fighting lost causes on his little thread, it makes me chuckle]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/482933.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/482933.page GMT A draw, Almost tabled, need help
He had a ton of high-strength shots, and you brought a shooty list with lots of light vehicles, and small-number count units protected by moderate to good toughness (which his high strength shooting counters).

You just brought a bad list for fighting Tau.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/483701.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/483701.page GMT A draw, Almost tabled, need help When I play at my FLGS, I normally play MEQ players, which is nice as my Eldar list is tricked out against power armour. A few weeks back I played my best mate for the first time ever, and he's Guard.

I *nearly* had my ass handed to me. Nearly ;-)

One thing Tau get is massed shots via their Fire Warriors. To combat this you'll need either a big ol' template (Prism), or you'll need to get into assault nice and easy (10 banshees will get 40 attacks on the charge).

Fair do's, if this player is clever he'll counter with his Kroot, so you need to be doing something about them. The answer to that is quite simply his tactic: massed firepower. I personally would choose a guardian squad with a scatter laser, or a Bladestorming squad of DAs.
A Vyper with SLs isn't going to hurt either.
your prism would also do nicely here, nice big template, low toughness. Yum.

Those suits are gonna be a pain. Best thing there is something equally as fast, and packing a punch. Jetbikes would be a boon here, especially with warlocks and spears and Shuri cannons. I'd even get a jetbike Autarch up in his grill with a fusion gun or laser lance. You can use the same bike squads against the vehicles too.

It's been mentioned before that Pathfinders would be a good choice. I personally never leave home without them. I've taken down Devestators, a Chaos Termie Lord, A Wraithlord and a Dreadnaut before, all solely with my long-rifled friends.

I don't have time to add up all that up, but you could put a great list together for 1000pts, and seeing as the majority of these units are troops, you're gonna trounce the guy on objective-based missions.
I personally always go for total annihilation becuase I'm sassy! :-D]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/483745.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/483745.page GMT A draw, Almost tabled, need help
I was really surprised at the amount of damage kroot shooting can do, i have never faced anyone who has used these to shoot rather than assault]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/484412.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/484412.page GMT A draw, Almost tabled, need help
yes the war walkers are fluffy, and i can just about go with the jetbikes, though that's more Siam-Hann.

Ulthwe is all about lots of foot-slogging Gaurdians, you can mechanise them, but basically you need gaurdians.

and Eldrad]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/484421.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/484421.page GMT A draw, Almost tabled, need help
Thats why i like Maugan Ra, as he has help Ulthwe with the eye of terror, and no one that i know is using him, or any of the other pheonix lords come to think of it.

Wave serpents dont fit the fluff to much so i guess im going to be have a foot slogging list with a few vipers and fire prisms]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/484448.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/484448.page GMT Re:A draw, Almost tabled, need help

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/484897.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/484897.page GMT Re:A draw, Almost tabled, need help
For the second troops choice in your army I would suggest pathfinders. Deploy them in cover and they get a very nice 2+ cover save. This means the opponent will have to get near you to kill them (flamers), which means they will have to go past your Wraithguard.

This should be a pretty solid core. Adding units like Wraithlords for long range anti-tank fire and close combat support, or Harlequins for close combat support (running in front of the wraithguard to give them a 4+ cover save). The Avatar would be nice close combat support as well, though I'd prefer the two units named above. For more anti-infantry fire you could add double Scatter-Laser War Walkers. All these last units are just a matter of personal preference though.

This type of army also scales to higher points values very well. Replacing the Farseer by Eldrad gives so much utility (fortuning both the harlequins and wraithguard, or mind warring Ork Nobz out of the big units of boyz and than charging a Wraithlord in there, holding them up forever).

Hope I have been of some help.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/484919.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/484919.page GMT A draw, Almost tabled, need help OP:

You shouldn't ask how to build a tougher list, then shoot down the responses because "everyone else does it and I don't like how they do it."

If you want to NOT get tabled, you have to build a good list AND be a good player. One or the other is, simply, not good enough.

If you have limits on what models you will or will not play, you should list them up front.

For example;

"I'd like your suggestions but, for the record, I don't play Wraith Lords, the Avatar or Eldrad. Anything else is fair game."

That gives us a FAR better idea for suggestions.

Eric
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/485439.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/485439.page GMT A draw, Almost tabled, need help -Eldrad
-Yriel
-Dire Avengers (i must used guardians)
-Wave Serpents

Rest is all good ^^]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/486102.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/486102.page GMT Re:A draw, Almost tabled, need help
First of all if I recall correctly since all of his elite crisis suit squads are armed identically that means that they wounds that are inflicted on them cannot be taken on each individual model. If you inflict 2 wounds one of the models dies. And if even one of those models dies he has to take a leadership test. (correct me if I'm wrong but I seem to think that is how it works since the wounds are all taken at once and not seperated)

Aside from that note, I'd say some cc squads would be right up your ally. Either infiltrating SS or banshee's in a Wave Serpent, heck why not both.

Wraith Guard and War walkers are going to get shot to mincemeat by the army you are up against, as well as being to pricey and in small numbers.

Take big squads and close the distance.

Your also playing Ulthwe take large guardian squads!!!

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/486107.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/486107.page GMT A draw, Almost tabled, need help

Squig_herder wrote:@Eric, sorry man, ok heres the not taking no matter what list:
-Eldrad
-Yriel
-Dire Avengers (i must used guardians)
-Wave Serpents

Rest is all good ^^

Then (IMO), you shouldn't even bring your army. Just show up, shake his hand, and congratulate him.

No Wave Serpents? Geez, man. Those are integral for any fight against tau, IMO. Your boys will just tear tau UP in HtH, if your army is built right... but, without tricked out Serpents, you're just not going to get there.

Same goes for the Dire Avengers. I'm not saying to spam them in your list... but they're all kinds of good (for Eldar). FOR AN ELDAR UNIT, they shoot and assault reasonably well. They're a very good "all round" unit.

I happen to like the characters but, considering your reasons for not wanting them, I can "ignore" them. : )

You REALLY need to reconsider the other two, though... especially the Wave Serpents. They'll be key to a rout for you.

Eric]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/488652.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/488652.page GMT A draw, Almost tabled, need help
That all well and go, it hard to get the right balance using little no tanks, especially with eldar.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/488901.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/488901.page GMT Re:A draw, Almost tabled, need help
Here are my suggestions to you:

Guardians - they are cheap (your uthwe so good there too) and you get some hvy wep.

Make him come to you - the suits only have a template range and being completely similar means they cant divide wounds up. Also they lack the all important bonding knife - so every one you kill they have a good chance of running.

Once again - pathfinders. snipe out 1 or 2 suits and he will have issues.

Walking eldar are fine - got 2 friends with them and have difficulty with any of his fortuned units. So do invest in a farseer with at least fortune.

I agree with some of the other stuff stated, however I would say that tau do start to fall behind in the 1800 range.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/489064.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/489064.page GMT A draw, Almost tabled, need help

BloodDeathAssault wrote:@Eric, i tend to disagree there, have fought against eldar list with no vehicles at all, and they are still very strong. Yes they maybe fast and abit more durable but if squiggy doesnt want them, then i say go him, im sick of seeing the same lists everywhere, no variety

That all well and go, it hard to get the right balance using little no tanks, especially with eldar.

Did you fight them while playing TAU?

A well built Tau list is a hands-down winner against footslogging Eldar, barring (a) an inept Tau player or (b) angry dice Gods.

I barely know Tau... I'd be pretty crappy at them... I think I could beat a footslogging Eldar force with 'em.

Just my $.02. YMMV, of course.

Eric]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/490056.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/490056.page GMT A draw, Almost tabled, need help
It all depends on the army build and tactics.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/490358.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/490358.page GMT Re:A draw, Almost tabled, need help
Pathfinders are very hard for the Tau to kill as well. They get a 2+ cover save which is very difficult for the Tau to circumvent, due to not wanting to be close to their opposition. Yes, they can decrease the cover save with markerlights, but taking lots of markerlights in a 1000 points match will make your main army very small.

These two units alone will make the Tau suffer, especially in objective missions where the opposing player will want to kill your troops.

Adding a Harlequin unit with a shadowseer (which is commonly seen to support the Wraithguard, as close combat is their biggest weakness) will only make it worse for the Tau.

The Wraithlords and the Avatar will be killed pretty damn fast against the Tau though.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/490931.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/490931.page GMT Re:A draw, Almost tabled, need help

Airmaniac wrote:MagickalMemories, you seem to be really underestimating the survivability of a fortuned Wraithguard unit taken as a troops choice. They will simply shrug off most of the high strength shots the Tau put out, due to a re-rollable 3+ armour save. Sure the Tau have weapons to ignore that save, but they sure don't have a whole lot of them and the Wraithguard will simply take their re-rollable 4+ cover save against those.

Yeah, this looks like it'll be decently survivable, but without transports you have a big difficulty in the form of slow unit + short range. His entire setup is Kroot + mech + JSJ. I foresee one big super unit getting mobbed and bogged by kroot in HTH, out maneuvered by mech, and out maneuvered by JSJ. This is a huge point sink (especially w/out transports) that, if your opponent configures for, can easily be wrecked by a plethora of S6+ AP2 weaponry on crisis suits.

Pathfinders are very hard for the Tau to kill as well. They get a 2+ cover save which is very difficult for the Tau to circumvent, due to not wanting to be close to their opposition. Yes, they can decrease the cover save with markerlights, but taking lots of markerlights in a 1000 points match will make your main army very small.

Uhm... his opponent is running something like 18 flamers on crisis suits. How do you propose those T3/5+ pathfinders living through JSJ units with piles of templates?

Adding a Harlequin unit with a shadowseer (which is commonly seen to support the Wraithguard, as close combat is their biggest weakness) will only make it worse for the Tau.

Harlequins are certainly a pretty nasty unit for shooty Tau, but again, there's the issue of Suits with flamers. If you can get these guys to hit home in a telling multiple unit assault, yes, you should be able to make their points stick. BUT, I'd say that's a 50-50 chance at best. Odds are very good of a squad of flamer suits showing up and WTFPWNing your T3 5++ units with 18 flamer wounds.

The Wraithlords and the Avatar will be killed pretty damn fast against the Tau though.

Agreed.

If you're going to do de-meched eldar, try two mega footslogging seer councils with 9 outflanking war walkers. It'll still be a fight, but fleet should even the field and high initiative should flatten the kroot in hth. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/491021.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/491021.page GMT Re:A draw, Almost tabled, need help

Squig_herder wrote:Lets try not to bite, ok ^^

It all depends on the army build and tactics.

If that was aimed at me... Don't worry. I wasn't biting.
I come to Dakka to learn and share. I only discuss. I don't like the ever-prevalent arguing that goes on.

I was simply stating what I see as a statement of fact... and, IMO, tactics don't help a crappy army build.

Airmaniac wrote:MagickalMemories, you seem to be really underestimating the survivability of a fortuned Wraithguard unit taken as a troops choice. They will simply shrug off most of the high strength shots the Tau put out, due to a re-rollable 3+ armour save. Sure the Tau have weapons to ignore that save, but they sure don't have a whole lot of them and the Wraithguard will simply take their re-rollable 4+ cover save against those.

No. Not at all. I don't underestimate their survivability at all. I simply don't find it to be worthwhile when coupled with their prohibitive points cost.
Rerollable 3+ saves mean nothing against the Tau big guns (names slip my memory).
Rerollable cover saves? Dod I miss that? Since when do the COME WITH cover saves? If you're merely referring to cover saves from terrain... Well, tables aren't 100% terrain. You can't utilize them as objective takers AND hide them... You also can't use their guns very well without getting close enough.

Also.... see my notes under pathfinders re: Cover saves.

Airmaniac wrote:Pathfinders are very hard for the Tau to kill as well. They get a 2+ cover save which is very difficult for the Tau to circumvent, due to not wanting to be close to their opposition. Yes, they can decrease the cover save with markerlights, but taking lots of markerlights in a 1000 points match will make your main army very small.

These two units alone will make the Tau suffer, especially in objective missions where the opposing player will want to kill your troops.

You hit on markerlights, but you underestimate a GOOD tau player. A GOOD tau player will have a bunch of markerlights. That makes your pathfinders WAY less "uber' when that 2+ save drops to a 5+ from massed lights (IIRC, markerlights can be used to reduce cover saves AND can be stacked. Yes?).

Another problem about Pathfinders as TROOPS is in objective missions. Are they going to be a firebase OR try to take an objective? You don't often get to do both. Outside of terrain, they're fish in a barrel.
Also: Tau HtH units eat pathfinders and pick their teeth with wraithbone toothpicks.

Airmaniac wrote:Adding a Harlequin unit with a shadowseer (which is commonly seen to support the Wraithguard, as close combat is their biggest weakness) will only make it worse for the Tau.

Really? Running harlies across the board is going to be HARD for tau? Dude. They have a 5+ Invul save. As soon as they get withing REASONABLE range, a good tau player's going to drop a template or massed shots in them. Harlies lose 2 of every 3 models that have to roll a save.

Airmaniac wrote:The Wraithlords and the Avatar will be killed pretty damn fast against the Tau though.

Agreed.

Eric]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/491120.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/491120.page GMT Re:A draw, Almost tabled, need help
You do realise they have to be within 14" of the closest model of a squad to get even a single hit (6" move, 8" template), which means they need to start their turn within 10"-12" to get an effective template on the pathfinders. This means moving through open ground, where the pathfinders will snipe them off. They will have more than enough turns for this because the crisis suits will have to move around the big Wraithguard unit that will instant kill any crisis team that ends it's turn within 18" of it.

The same thing goes for the harlequins. They have a threat range of 18", while the crisis teams have a shorter threat range (see above). Another thing to consider is that fortune isn't bound to one unit and the harlequins will probably be babysitting the Wraithguard anyway. This means that when you do get close the harlequins will probably get the 5+ re-rollable invulnerable save. The Wraithguard won't die in a turn without fortune, hell they survived the entire last battle without it.

Yes the Wraithguard would get a 4+ cover save anywhere on the field. It's called screening with other units. Not being able to shoot the harlequins outside of 2D6x2" doesn't mean you can negate them for cover purposes.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/491350.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/491350.page GMT Re:A draw, Almost tabled, need help

Airmaniac wrote:And those crisis suits are getting flamer templates on those pathfinders how exactly?

I didn't say anything about templates.
Granted, I haven't played against tau in a while, so I don't know, off-hand... Are template weapons the only "shooty" available to Crisis suits?

Airmaniac wrote:You do realise they have to be within 14" of the closest model of a squad to get even a single hit (6" move, 8" template), which means they need to start their turn within 10"-12" to get an effective template on the pathfinders. This means moving through open ground, where the pathfinders will snipe them off. They will have more than enough turns for this because the crisis suits will have to move around the big Wraithguard unit that will instant kill any crisis team that ends it's turn within 18" of it.

You're playing in a bubble, with your logic.
There will be way more units on the field than Pathfinders, Wraithguard and Crisis suits.
A smart player won't gamble with the suits, if he isn't in a desperate position. The pathfinders will be shot by firewarrios, most likely, due to the range & Str. of their shots.

You overestimate that individual unit of WG, I think. Also... don't forget that their cost prohibitive nature will eat deeply into the army's effectiveness.

Airmaniac wrote:The same thing goes for the harlequins. They have a threat range of 18", while the crisis teams have a shorter threat range (see above). Another thing to consider is that fortune isn't bound to one unit and the harlequins will probably be babysitting the Wraithguard anyway. This means that when you do get close the harlequins will probably get the 5+ re-rollable invulnerable save. The Wraithguard won't die in a turn without fortune, hell they survived the entire last battle without it.

So, you're going to take that fragile unit that NEEDS to get into HtH to unleash it's FULL effectiveness... that has FLEET... and use it to babysit a bunch of WG? By "babysit," are you referring to shielding them for cover saves? Wouldn't a Guardian squad be better (and less expensive) for that?

I had a single SM model win combat with a Carnifex and kill it in 2 rounds. That doesn't mean basic SM are killers in HtH against Monstrous creatures.
Same for those WG. Just because it happened once, that doesn't mean it'll happen again.

Rerollable 5+ saves are't THAT good.

Airmaniac wrote:Yes the Wraithguard would get a 4+ cover save anywhere on the field. It's called screening with other units. Not being able to shoot the harlequins outside of 2D6x2" doesn't mean you can negate them for cover purposes.

Bubble again.
You can't guarantee that you're going to have the opportunity to screen them. Even if you do, you're going to have to (a) take a HIGE (expensive) unit of harlies for that shield or (b) Keep your WG formed up tightly, so that my units can't see more than 50% of that LARGE unit behind the harlies.

Also, M-Lights will reduce that cover save NICELY.

Eric]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/492725.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/492725.page GMT Re:A draw, Almost tabled, need help HtH and he has to put himself into hth range to use those guys. His Kroot fall to the scatter lasers(all you got to kill is 3-4 from each squad and they have a 40% chance of breaking. I can't believe he threw away points on the XV-8 blacksun filters when for just 2 pts more per model he could run target locks(Thats dropping only 2 fw). As it stands hes flushing 30 pts down the drain with the BS filters on units equipped with flamers. Your bright lances insta kill broadsides,not bad but I'm going to suggest a few tweaks.

I'm assuming both of you gents aren't using tanks because you want to do an infantry theme(otherwise my suggetions would be very different)

First) Drop Maugan Ra, I know he's great but to many points and not complimentary to your army. Instead Run a Farseer with Fortune and the Spiritseer ability. This way you can drop the spiritseer with the wraithguard(more points saved) and join the Farseer to the Wraithguard.
Second) Don't let fluff make you sink pts unecessarily. Make the Wraithguard your eilite with 5 models. This leaves you enough points to run a Third Guardian Jetbike squad and to be able to Warlock all three sqauds. Or A Gaurdian squad with weapon platform, but still warlock(enhance) the other jetbike squad.
Third)Combine your jetbike squads then you only need one jetbike warlock getting into points range for another guardian squad or some rangers(if you can get the point for the 2 shuriken cannons go for it).
Fourth)March a Wraith Lord right behind your wraithguard. Even if it means you have to drop the single war walker(which I don't think you will but I dont have book in front of me for the math).

With these changes your jetbike squad will wipe the crisis flamers off of the board by charging into hth and be protected from fire doing so, even if the kroot join in. You will run your wraithguard first turn(and only first turn) and walk the Lord behind constantly firing At the broadsides and remember walker weapons are not twin linked.

Some of this you probably already know just put them in for new players/readers. Let me know what you think of these suggestions.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/492781.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/492781.page GMT Re:A draw, Almost tabled, need help
I was talking about the templates because those are the only weapons the crisis suits have in the army listed by the OP.

This army also doesn't include any markerlights, which means the fire warrior shooting versus the pathfinders will accomplish very little due to 2+ cover saves.

By the harlequins babysitting the wraithguard unit I mean, protecting them from close combat, which is the biggest weakness they have. The cover save they grant them is only an additional bonus (which is only needed against the broadsides shooting btw, as the tau army the OP posted has no other means of ignoring a 3+ armour save).

I don't know why you keep bringing up markerlights but the army posted by the OP doesn't include those.

@ focusedfire

The wraithguard are there as a very survivable scoring unit, which will be a big problem to the tau army the OP listed. They aren't very good as elites, as the opponent will just ignore them due to their low offensive capabilities. For this very same reason he needs to keep the spiritseer in the wraithguard squad, or they will not count as a troops choice.

Wraithlords are normally a very good idea for these kind of armies, but the tau will have little difficulty bringing them down. Especially since the army listed includes 3 railguns in 1000 points.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/493378.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/493378.page GMT Re:A draw, Almost tabled, need help
Check the size of the wraith guard vs the monsterous creature(Wraithlord). If they are waist high he gets coversave. Also, the Tau list is very limited in the number of targets engaged per turn and only one heavy hitting squad.

Yes you are right about warlock, was thinking farseerers had that option also. Join the Farseerer to the Wraithgaurd and Spiritseerer.

No they do not need to be troops. They need to be steadily pushing forward into enemy territory where their guns will do some good, while the objective holding troops do what they are supposed to.

@OP The danger of their guns after running the first turn will attract a lot of attention. Maybe put 6 or 7 wraithguard but thats enough. Save the points for the extra Wraith Guard by combining the 2 jetbikes but make it a 5 bike squad with warlock.

Arm the guardian defenders with ML, the templates will mess the FWs up(no save if in the open) and give you a 40ish% chance at insta-deathing an exposed crisis suit. Keep the on back edge directly across from FW(rang 48 vs range 30)

Do the same for the unit of Warwalkers. Blast temps are the friend of BS3. Or arm them with starcannons and make use of their scout rule(flanking if your into gambling). Run them 2 strong.

Arm Wraithlord with brightlance and or starcannon(depending on pts) and if going second line him up as close to broadsides as possible while still getting coversaves or being out of line of sight.

Remember, insta-death one broadside and they're taking Leadership test. Once Broadsides are gone turn your attention and all the ap2&3 love onto the crisis suits While MLs work over the FWs and your Jetbikes tie up and kill crisis and kroot.

May be able to only run one walker squad with the Lord or two walkers teams of 2. I'll math it up in a bit.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/494182.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/494182.page GMT A draw, Almost tabled, need help
Also, Shadowseer + invulnerable save = a very hard-to-flame post/unit.

**hides**]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/494238.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/494238.page GMT Re:A draw, Almost tabled, need help

Airmaniac wrote:@ MagickalMemories

I was talking about the templates because those are the only weapons the crisis suits have in the army listed by the OP.

This army also doesn't include any markerlights, which means the fire warrior shooting versus the pathfinders will accomplish very little due to 2+ cover saves.

By the harlequins babysitting the wraithguard unit I mean, protecting them from close combat, which is the biggest weakness they have. The cover save they grant them is only an additional bonus (which is only needed against the broadsides shooting btw, as the tau army the OP posted has no other means of ignoring a 3+ armour save).

I don't know why you keep bringing up markerlights but the army posted by the OP doesn't include those.

Good, valid points.

I think we're just tackling it from different angles. You're kitting him for THAT tau army, and I'm kitting him for a good tau army.
Any tau plyer worth his salt of going to have plenty of markerlights, so that was my line.

You're right, though, that THIS force doesn't seem to have any. Good enough.

Should his opponent wise up & start taking ML's, though, he's screwed.

Eric]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/495522.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/224882/495522.page GMT