Latest posts for the thread "Amusing 1500 Daemonhunters"

Amusing 1500 Daemonhunters

Centurian99 — GMT

Got a tournament coming up in a few weeks at Gorilla Con in Ypsilanti. 1500 points, "Ard Boyz" style.
http://gorillatactics.org/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=59&Itemid=63

Haven't decided what I'm going to take, but here's an amusing Daemonhunters list I came up with:

HQ: Grand Master /w NFW & Storm Bolter
HQ: Brother-Captain Stern
E: Inquisitor /w incinerator, Emperor's Tarot; 2 mystics; 3 warriors /w flamers; Land Raider
T: Justicar, 4 Grey Knights, 2 incinerators
T: Justicar, 4 Grey Knights, 2 incinerators
HS: Land Raider Crusader
HS: Land Raider Crusader

Obviously, the GM and BC-Stern each join a Grey Knights squad. All the infantry stay holed up in their Land Raiders until the opposition is a bit thinned out, then get out and flame away. GK Land Raiders have old-style hurricane bolters, so moving 12", firing the hurricanes at one target, and multi-melta-ing another is fair game.

Would be amusing to play, if nothing else. Only problem is there's no psychic hood. :( I suppose I could go stelek-style and use =][= Stormtroopers for Troops, but the incinerators are quite nice and handy to have around.

Only problem is I don't have a GM who's modelled as I listed - my GM model has an incinerator.

Amusing 1500 Daemonhunters

Deadshane1 — GMT

Centurian99 wrote:Got a tournament coming up in a few weeks at Gorilla Con in Ypsilanti. 1500 points, "Ard Boyz" style.
http://gorillatactics.org/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=59&Itemid=63

Haven't decided what I'm going to take, but here's an amusing Daemonhunters list I came up with:

HQ: Grand Master /w NFW & Storm Bolter
HQ: Brother-Captain Stern
E: Inquisitor /w incinerator, Emperor's Tarot; 2 mystics; 3 warriors /w flamers; Land Raider
T: Justicar, 4 Grey Knights, 2 incinerators
T: Justicar, 4 Grey Knights, 2 incinerators
HS: Land Raider Crusader
HS: Land Raider Crusader

Obviously, the GM and BC-Stern each join a Grey Knights squad. All the infantry stay holed up in their Land Raiders until the opposition is a bit thinned out, then get out and flame away. GK Land Raiders have old-style hurricane bolters, so moving 12", firing the hurricanes at one target, and multi-melta-ing another is fair game.

Would be amusing to play, if nothing else. Only problem is there's no psychic hood. :( I suppose I could go stelek-style and use =][= Stormtroopers for Troops, but the incinerators are quite nice and handy to have around.

Only problem is I don't have a GM who's modelled as I listed - my GM model has an incinerator.

3 Landraiders and 2 NEMESIS force weapons in 1500, dirty dirty.

...me likey.

Amusing 1500 Daemonhunters

CaptKaruthors — GMT

Wow. This list packs quite the punch at 1500pts. I like it a lot.

Capt K

Amusing 1500 Daemonhunters

MJThurston — GMT

Well the problem is that there is only 2 troop choices. So holding objectives is out of the question. Also if you moving with the Landraiders you are not shooting. If you are only moving 6 inches at a time you can't get to the fight. If your units are running across the table they are going to die.

Force weapons only work on multi wound models. So Force Weapons are not that big of a deal. Vs Internal Warriors they are useless.

At 1500 points the vehicles are strong but the lack of troops in 5E makes this list suspect.

Flamers only work well vs 5+ and 4+ for the Inc. Vs 3+ armies they don't do much. You get one good round of flamer and then die.

The mystics are great anti deepstrikers but who are you going to drop that shot off to? Maybe the GK but they don't have any real long range fire. 6 Stormbolter shots are just not that scary.

This list would have problems with deep striking dreads. I'd deep strike so no other LR could get a shot on me and then multi-melta the one I'm near. Next turn the squad inside is going to die. I'd even think about taking out one with a troop choice. They have nothing to bust my armor and would die after I charged them.

Amusing 1500 Daemonhunters

whitedragon — GMT

I would ignore all of the above post.

Amusing 1500 Daemonhunters

Deadshane1 — GMT

Yea, basically.

@Mauleedlovesyakeface

It helps to know FAQ and the codex in question before you post....

Amusing 1500 Daemonhunters

Brother Condon — GMT

I see you suffering from good long ranged shooty army's. Obliterators or broadsides for example are going to be a pain in the ass. I run a two LRC templar army, and those are the armies that toast me.

Amusing 1500 Daemonhunters

ender502 — GMT

Deadshane1 wrote:Yea, basically.

@Mauleedlovesyakeface

It helps to know FAQ and the codex in question before you post....

Deadshane...

at least he tried to explain what he thought were weaknesses. He, unlinke you, didn't just say "you're stupid."

Why not explain where he went wrong? It would help him and others who may be making the same incorrect assumptions.

BTW...Love the list. Incinerators are sweet and, with the little i know of it, I think it'll do well in an ard boyz style environment.

ender502

Amusing 1500 Daemonhunters

Deadshane1 — GMT

ender502 wrote:
Deadshane1 wrote:Yea, basically.

@Mauleedlovesyakeface

It helps to know FAQ and the codex in question before you post....

Deadshane...

at least he tried to explain what he thought were weaknesses. He, unlinke you, didn't just say "you're stupid."

Why not explain where he went wrong? It would help him and others who may be making the same incorrect assumptions.

BTW...Love the list. Incinerators are sweet and, with the little i know of it, I think it'll do well in an ard boyz style environment.

ender502

I didnt just say "you're stupid"

What I said was that it's helpful to at least have an idea about the rules and FAQ you're talking about (apparently he doenst realise that Grey Knights get the decent Machine spirit and souped up Force weapons)...before giving advice.

and um, why dont you calm down? I wasnt THAT nasty.

Amusing 1500 Daemonhunters

ender502 — GMT

Deadshane1 wrote:apparently he doenst realise that Grey Knights get the decent Machine spirit and souped up Force weapons

See, that's better.

Deadshane1 wrote:nd um, why dont you calm down? I wasnt THAT nasty.

I think it's your avatar...I want to punch it in the face. Not you, just your avatar. Unless you are Gary Busey...then i may want to take a swing at ya.

ender502

Amusing 1500 Daemonhunters

Black Blow Fly — GMT

"...Grey Knights get the... souped up Force weapons)...before giving advice."

If you are talking about 'kills outright' it has not even been FAQ'd that it reduces a multi-wound model to zero wounds with one hit. Basically some people that really love DH believe this to be the case and yakface supported it with some Apoc rule. It's not going to fly everywhere. Just saying.

G

Amusing 1500 Daemonhunters

sourclams — GMT

Says it kills outright, does not say it inflicts instant death. Will it fly everywhere? No, but then you're probably getting 3+ storm shield saves as well with Assault Cannons that are Heavy 4.

Bat swings both ways.

Amusing 1500 Daemonhunters

Deadshane1 — GMT

Green Blow Fly wrote:"...Grey Knights get the... souped up Force weapons)...before giving advice."

If you are talking about 'kills outright' it has not even been FAQ'd that it reduces a multi-wound model to zero wounds with one hit. Basically some people that really love DH believe this to be the case and yakface supported it with some Apoc rule. It's not going to fly everywhere. Just saying.

G

I know what you mean, those places where people like to ignore rules even when you throw the print directly into their faces will likely still disagree that this is the case.

codex>rulebook

Re:Amusing 1500 Daemonhunters

Centurian99 — GMT

Yeah, DH are a messed up codex. Force weapons that don't instakill, so they ignore eternal warrior. Hurrricane bolters that let you move 12" and fire. And the new machine spirit, so they can shoot a second weapon at a different target at BS4.

Massed obliterators is tough, I'll admit, but only if they get within 12". Otherwise, I'll take that duel. Broadsides...well, bad matchup.

Re:Amusing 1500 Daemonhunters

Krilau — GMT

i personally see this list working and kicking some butt. 1 landraider can be a pain to get rid off let alone 3. good luck with the list. and post something if you please when you playtested it.

thx

Amusing 1500 Daemonhunters

Pdeflorio — GMT

Wait what?

What do you guys mean about "souped up force weapon"?

Amusing 1500 Daemonhunters

Centurian99 — GMT

Pdeflorio wrote:Wait what?

What do you guys mean about "souped up force weapon"?

With GW's declaration that you use the codex as written, Daemonhunters have force weapons that don't cause Instant Death. They simply kill a model regardless of remaining wounds. So Eternal Warrior doesn't defend against it.

Amusing 1500 Daemonhunters

Pdeflorio — GMT

Wow. That's bad ass...

Amusing 1500 Daemonhunters

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath — GMT

Ya, I would hate to be against broadsides with this list.

However, against anybody else... At 1500 points, most armies have trouble dealing with ONE land raider, let alone 3.

This army would be fun to play with. Not quite as much fun as the 3 LR in 1000 points, but still quite fun

I'm waiting for the day that they let DH use those new FW redeemer variants Killing bloodletters on twos, me likey likey

Amusing 1500 Daemonhunters

Black Blow Fly — GMT

Centurian99 wrote:
Pdeflorio wrote:Wait what?

What do you guys mean about "souped up force weapon"?

With GW's declaration that you use the codex as written, Daemonhunters have force weapons that don't cause Instant Death. They simply kill a model regardless of remaining wounds. So Eternal Warrior doesn't defend against it.

That is a rule interpretation from here at Dakka. It has not been FAQ'd. Personally I would call for a judge if someone tried to use this for their DH army. I don't mean to be argumentative or rude but this one comes across as very rule lawyering to be completely honest.

G

Amusing 1500 Daemonhunters

Deadshane1 — GMT

Green Blow Fly wrote:
That is a rule interpretation from here at Dakka. It has not been FAQ'd. Personally I would call for a judge if someone tried to use this for their DH army. I don't mean to be argumentative or rude but this one comes across as very rule lawyering to be completely honest.

G

You're the only one here that thinks so.

Amusing 1500 Daemonhunters

Centurian99 — GMT

Green Blow Fly wrote:
Centurian99 wrote:
Pdeflorio wrote:Wait what?

What do you guys mean about "souped up force weapon"?

With GW's declaration that you use the codex as written, Daemonhunters have force weapons that don't cause Instant Death. They simply kill a model regardless of remaining wounds. So Eternal Warrior doesn't defend against it.

That is a rule interpretation from here at Dakka. It has not been FAQ'd. Personally I would call for a judge if someone tried to use this for their DH army. I don't mean to be argumentative or rude but this one comes across as very rule lawyering to be completely honest.

G

Good comes with bad. GK Assault Cannons are only Heavy 3, and don't rend.

That's how I was told to play it at the Baltimore GT by the GW Rules Judges. Not that they're paragons of rules knowledge, but they've got their stuff together.

Amusing 1500 Daemonhunters

Black Blow Fly — GMT

I know that is certainly seems like the nemesis force weapon should insta-kill a greater daemon or daemon prince. Certainly Grey Knights have that image. If a judge called it that way in a tournament I would accept it, but ask for the reason behind that decision.

We shouldn't use RAW selectively so as to give some 'needy' armies a break.

G

Amusing 1500 Daemonhunters

whitedragon — GMT

Green Blow Fly wrote:
We shouldn't use RAW selectively so as to give some 'needy' armies a break.

Nobody is using anything selectively. GW says codicies trump the rulebook. Well, there are alot of things that the Demonhunters codex says that trumps the rulebook. Force Weapons killing the model outright being one of them.

Amusing 1500 Daemonhunters

Black Blow Fly — GMT

Kills outright is the same thing as insta-death.

G

Amusing 1500 Daemonhunters

sourclams — GMT

Not really, instant death is well defined within the BRB. "Kills Outright" is... not.

Amusing 1500 Daemonhunters

Black Blow Fly — GMT

Both reduce a model to zero wounds with a single attack.

Should this apply to armor as well?

G

Re:Amusing 1500 Daemonhunters

Centurian99 — GMT

GBF, that's a simplistic way of looking at it.

5th ed force weapons work by causing Instant Death, as defined in the main rulebook. Instant Death is not the same thing as simply removing a model as a casualty, even if the mechanics are the same. The DH Force weapon description clearly states that a force weapon simply removes a wounded model as a casualty on passing a psychic test, regardless of remaining wounds.

GW has specifically stated in the FAQs that you use your codex as written, without updating it to the current rules. That's why things like spore mines, Tau gun drones off of Devilfish, and other similar units are all worth a kill point. It's why the Dark Angels have different storm shields than other Space Marines.

Since GW doesn't want to bother updating codexes to match current 40K 5 standards, they've taken the simple approach: play the codex as written. Which causes a heck of a lot of problems, especially for Daemonhunters, which are a 40K 3 codex. In the Daemonhunter codex alone, you've got (and this is by no means an exhaustive list):

Force Weapons that remove models outright, not through the Instant Death mechanic.
Crusaders that are 255 points and come with hurricane bolters that can fire if the vehicle moves 12".
Storm Shields that only work in close combat, against a single enemy model.
Assault Cannons that are Heavy 3, and don't rend.
Smoke Launchers that make all hits glancing
Oodles of stuff that supposed to make like difficult for Daemons that don't work (Because Daemons are now fearless)
Heck, Daemons are defined in the Daemonhunter Codex itself...and the only things in the Chaos Daemons codex that count as Daemons (according to the DH codex) are Soul Grinders, Greater Daemons, and nurglings.

GW, in its infinite wisdom, has declared that we use the Codex as written. I'd love to have an updated DH codex. I'll gladly lose the "remove outright" force weapons if I can get 3+ inv. from storm shields, give regular land raiders multimeltas, and take drop pods. But if you're going to try and change one aspect of the codex to bring it in line with current rules, and leave the other aspects, that's unfair and cherry picking.

Amusing 1500 Daemonhunters

Black Blow Fly — GMT

Well to me saying the term kills outright is not the same as instant death, to me that is a game of pure semantics. Honestly I don't remember the term 'kills outright' ever have been considered anything else than instant death until a day or so ago. If talks and walks like a duck there is a very good chance that it is an actual water fowl for all intensive purposes really.

G

Amusing 1500 Daemonhunters

Centurian99 — GMT

GBF, the problem there is that I believe that Instant Death is used in the DH Codex...in relation to a piece of wargear (Bionics, I think...could be wrong. Visiting family out of town, so I don't have my DH codex with me). Can someone check that for me?

Even if it isn't, though, "Instant Death" is a defined game term, and is pretty much always used in that fashion (capitalized). Models with Eternal Warrior are immune to Instant Death, but not to other forms of casualty removal that ignore the number of wounds remaining (for example, deep strike mishaps, D weapons, SAG 12).

Nemesis Force Weapons and DH force weapons do not cause Instant Death. They simply cause a model to become a casualty regardless of remaining wounds.

Amusing 1500 Daemonhunters

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath — GMT

Green Blow Fly wrote:Well to me saying the term kills outright is not the same as instant death, to me that is a game of pure semantics. Honestly I don't remember the term 'kills outright' ever have been considered anything else than instant death until a day or so ago. If talks and walks like a duck there is a very good chance that it is an actual water fowl for all intensive purposes really.

G

It's actually not semantics at all. Page 26 of the rulebook defines "instant death" as an unsaved wound of strength double the model's toughness. There is nothing there that stipulates any other kind of instant death or defining instant death as "anything that causes death regardless of number of wounds", meaning that the default instant death is simply "death from S = double or more toughness."

However, BRB force weapons cause instant death, meaning they count as dealing a wound that has strength double the model's toughness. GK force weapons do not count as this kind of instant death, and have their own set of rules that causes death...instantly. That the two have a similar result is entirely superfluous**.

Those are the RAW. It's not semantics, it's simply the rules. GK force weapons don't count as causing instant death, so they simply don't. They kill models outright instead, in the same way that 4th ed ones did.

**edit: edited out "to the model." Lol Econ major, everything is a goddamned model to me

Amusing 1500 Daemonhunters

Black Blow Fly — GMT

I don't agree and will just keep it at that. You want a force weapon that can instantly kill a model with eternal warrior and have found a couple of words to make your case. It looks like a loophole to me at best. I don't see how you can say one force weapon counts as a double strength kill and another just kills instantly - the end result is the same, and this is what you want in this particular case.

These exercises encourage players to closely examine the rules looking for certain phrasing they feel they can take advantage of, then place the blame on the developers for poorly worded rules. I have seen this too many times to count.

happy holidays!
G

Amusing 1500 Daemonhunters

whitedragon — GMT

Green Blow Fly wrote:Well to me saying the term kills outright is not the same as instant death, to me that is a game of pure semantics.

Your assertion above makes RAW meaningless in any context. There is no point to having any rules discussion with you if you truly believe the above.

Amusing 1500 Daemonhunters

MJThurston — GMT

I'll conceed the Force Weapon point but Landraiders do not get the new rules from the Space Marine Rulebook. So from memory the GK Landraiders Cruisader can move 12 inches and fire the Bolters but thats it. If they do have Machine Spirit it's 1 extra shot and it's at BS 2.

This however does not take away from the fact that there are only 2 troop choices. This alone make the list not so good. All I need to do is kill 10 guys and I can hold any objective and win. Even if your LR's are on 3 Objectives that 1 I'm holding uncontested wins.

Vs say a Nurgle list those flamers do nothing. Chainfists and Multi weapons are dangersous to LR's. Like my example of a Dread coming in next to one is dangers. Vs a Ven Dread it's even worst.

Wraithlords smashing into these squads would also be dangerours. On paper this list my look strong but I see the weaknesses of it.

Hell a Battlewagon with a death roller would make your day bad. Thats if Dakka hasn't said that using a death roller isn't a tank shock. (Which it is.)

I'm all about this list being good at 1500 points but it's not the end all. The low troop choice make it suspect.

Amusing 1500 Daemonhunters

Black Blow Fly — GMT

That is not the case. It is more like 'if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck' then it is probably a duck. The nemesis FW is still a force weapon, albeit the rules read a little bit different, but it is still the same thing. I am sure this would have been FAQ'd it it were otherwise.

G

Re:Amusing 1500 Daemonhunters

storm knight — GMT

FW hasn't been FAQ'd, Machine spirit has been FAQ'd. We also get a Multi-Melta for free and Extra Armour cheap.

Anyway it makes perfect sense, NFW (wield by GrandMaster) isn't the same as a Force Weapon, it counts as Force Weapon but isn't the same.

Fluff-wise GK's and the Ordo Malleus have access to all Daemonhunting information, the Daemonicum (can't spell) and lots more held on Titan. There's probably information on Banishing Daemons by Force Weapon and other monstrotities. And how to successfully send something to the warp properly.

As for the list, drop the LR + Inquisitor.
8 GK's 2 Incinerator + Brother Captain Stern
8 GK's 2 Incinerator + GrandMaster
2 Stormtrooper squads (9) x2 Plasmagun

GM+Stern will probably gettin squished by Power fists by ahhh well. I really do like this list... hmmm.

Amusing 1500 Daemonhunters

Brother Condon — GMT

I/ve been to multiple tourny's since 5th, and it has come up several times, all have ruled in favor of nemesis forces remouving all wounds on any model. One guy got mad and demanded explaination, judge said "eternal warriar, deamon special rule, ext makes you immune to instant death, as nowhere does nthe codex say nemisis force weapons cause instant death, those special rules do not protect you from nemesis weapons. As stated above "instant death" is a defined game term. Trying to apply that to another rule that sounds the same is silly. I do feel like GW's descision to have players play indavidual codexs as written maybe was not the best plan but as said above "you can't repair the rules for nemesis force weapons, and not repair assault cannon, storm sheild, smoke launchers, ext.

Amusing 1500 Daemonhunters

Black Blow Fly — GMT

That is funny a friend of mine played in a tournament this weekend and he said the judges ruled against the NFW insta-killing enemy models with EW.

G

Amusing 1500 Daemonhunters

Centurian99 — GMT

MauleedlovesYakeface wrote:I'll conceed the Force Weapon point but Landraiders do not get the new rules from the Space Marine Rulebook. So from memory the GK Landraiders Cruisader can move 12 inches and fire the Bolters but thats it. If they do have Machine Spirit it's 1 extra shot and it's at BS 2.

Read the DH FAQ - it essentially gives the DH Land Raiders a Machine Spirit a la 5th Ed SM.

MauleedlovesYakeface wrote:
This however does not take away from the fact that there are only 2 troop choices. This alone make the list not so good. All I need to do is kill 10 guys and I can hold any objective and win. Even if your LR's are on 3 Objectives that 1 I'm holding uncontested wins.

That is a weakness...but to get at those troops, you need to kill two AV14 vehicles. That's not easy to do, at all. Land Raider Spam isn't a no brainer list - against some armies, it's basically an auto-win, against other armies, it takes a fair amount of judgement to determine when you exit the transports.

MauleedlovesYakeface wrote:Vs say a Nurgle list those flamers do nothing. Chainfists and Multi weapons are dangersous to LR's. Like my example of a Dread coming in next to one is dangers. Vs a Ven Dread it's even worst.

Nurgle takes it in the rear from Land Raider Spam. Daemons just get ground away, and Chaos doesn't have the long-range shooting once the oblits are killed (and obliterators are the primary target). Melta weapons are a worry...but pretty much only en masse. For each melta weapon, you're talking about a 43% chance or something like that of stopping the Land Raider.

MauleedlovesYakeface wrote:
Wraithlords smashing into these squads would also be dangerours. On paper this list my look strong but I see the weaknesses of it.

You're not getting it...the squads don't exit the Land Raiders while there are dangers like Wraithlords or Dreadnoughts still walking around. Against most dangers, they stand off and shoot. Deep Striking Dreads are the biggest worry...and unless you're facing an all-drop pod SM force, the best counter is to simply start with everything in reserve. On the other hand, smoke launchers for 3 pts/raider might be a good idea as well.

MauleedlovesYakeface wrote:
Hell a Battlewagon with a death roller would make your day bad. Thats if Dakka hasn't said that using a death roller isn't a tank shock. (Which it is.)

Yep, it's a tank shock. And the deathrolla gets an average of 3.5 hits. 1/2 of those will do nothing. 1/6 will glance, and effectively do nothing. only 1.16 will penetrate, and only 50% of those will stop the Raider.

Of course, this assumes that the battle wagon reaches the Land Raider's intact. They have the same movement, so its entirely possible for the Land Raiders to maneuver smartly and hit the battlewagon with multi-meltas at close range - which is likely to kill the battlewagon.

MauleedlovesYakeface wrote:
I'm all about this list being good at 1500 points but it's not the end all. The low troop choice make it suspect.

The low troop choice makes it a challenge, in a way. As I said, the troops are there to mop up, not to get stuck in.

Amusing 1500 Daemonhunters

Ozymandias — GMT

Green Blow Fly wrote:That is funny a friend of mine played in a tournament this weekend and he said the judges ruled against the NFW insta-killing enemy models with EW.

G

And we both know that tourney judges do not rules make.

You use the codex rules. Same thing with DA/BA smoke launchers. Our codex's say ours turn all pens into glances so that is what ours do, regardless of what the BGB says smoke launchers do (in fact there's an argument we get both effects).

I think we can all agree it's silly, but it is the rules. I for one would love for the DH/DA/BA/BT to all have consistent rules with the new SM codex but that's not the case and if you are going to say that the old codices must use the weak Storm Shields and Assault Cannons (in the DH case) then they also get to use the better Psychic hoods, NFW, and Smoke Grenades.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Amusing 1500 Daemonhunters

MJThurston — GMT

I do get it. Eldar drop your armour to 12 and put holes in your tanks. He then assaults your troops after killing your tank and cleans house.

I'm not an idiot and I have played a game or two.

Playing this game takes some skill but you only have 3 things and they all move together. So no big surprise on where you are going and what you need to do.

So really any army with mobility can take advantage of this. I can think of a good amount of Eldar lists that would own this list.

Believe it or not a Necron Army could own this list also. Having first turn a Necron army with luck could immobilize all 3 tanks. Then wait for you to try to grab objectives and smoke you.

If someone didn't bring high powered tank killers you have a great chance to win. If they did then it is a coin toss.

I also love math hammer. Isn't the Death Roller Str 10? So 1d6 hits at Str 10. So 3 is the average and then that leaves 1 doing nothing, 1 glancing and 1 pen'ing. With a little luck that could be 2 pen'ing. But again that is just wishful thinking that a death roller would get there.

2 troop choices is what makes this list weak. 3 LR's makes it strong. New missions require objectives. So having 2 troops choices makes this list suspect.

Nice try though.

GBF - The NFW still works as written in the Codex and the Psycic Hood has no range restrictions.

Amusing 1500 Daemonhunters

Black Blow Fly — GMT

I suppose we can take a position that rules lawyering is okay, but I personally in no way, shape or form endorse this type of behaviour.

Can someone please be so kind as to quote the USR for Eternal Warrior?

G

Amusing 1500 Daemonhunters

Ozymandias — GMT

GBF, I don't endorse rules lawyering either. Please re-read what I posted. Codex trumps Rulebook.

M<3Y: Death rollas don't work against vehicles. They work for tank shock, not ramming.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Amusing 1500 Daemonhunters

Mekboy — GMT

Page 74 BGB:

'Eternal Warrior
The model is immune to the effects of Instant Death' (note capitalisation of Instant Death, exactly copied from BGB. This makes it obvious it is a special rule).

Eternal Warrior protects from the special rule Instant Death, not from being 'killed instantly' or being 'slain outright' or anything else to that effect. Therefore Daemonhunter force weapons kill you even if you are an Eternal Warrior.

Amusing 1500 Daemonhunters

MJThurston — GMT

Yes Death Rollers work on vehicles. If you guys at Dakka say they can't that is some real good word screwing you are doing to not allow it.

GBF - The wording of instant kill and the wording of NFW are two different things. To make it easier you have an orange and a blood orange. They look alike but they are different.

Amusing 1500 Daemonhunters

Black Blow Fly — GMT

How can you say kills outright does not instantly kill the model?

G

Amusing 1500 Daemonhunters

Centurian99 — GMT

MauleedlovesYakeface wrote:I do get it. Eldar drop your armour to 12 and put holes in your tanks. He then assaults your troops after killing your tank and cleans house.

I see very few bright lances out there on Eldar these days. Dark Eldar...well, DE trumps Land Raider Spam, unless you're Black Templars.

MauleedlovesYakeface wrote:
I'm not an idiot and I have played a game or two.

Never said you were. Just said you didn't get it. Because its simply that tough to crack Land Raiders these days. Even if you can, its tough to do so reliably.

MauleedlovesYakeface wrote:
Believe it or not a Necron Army could own this list also. Having first turn a Necron army with luck could immobilize all 3 tanks. Then wait for you to try to grab objectives and smoke you.

The key words there are "with luck".

MauleedlovesYakeface wrote:I also love math hammer. Isn't the Death Roller Str 10? So 1d6 hits at Str 10. So 3 is the average and then that leaves 1 doing nothing, 1 glancing and 1 pen'ing. With a little luck that could be 2 pen'ing. But again that is just wishful thinking that a death roller would get there.

As I said, 3.5 hits is the average. 50% do nothing. 16.6% glance. 33% pen. Those are the numbers for S10 v AV14. Stopping the Raider is a 16% chance on a glance, and a 50% chance on a pen. So each hit has something like a 1 in 5 chance of stopping the Raider. Less if you're actually trying to kill the raider (11%, BTW).

Those are numbers I can live with.

MauleedlovesYakeface wrote:2 troop choices is what makes this list weak. 3 LR's makes it strong. New missions require objectives. So having 2 troops choices makes this list suspect.

Scott Simpson and I took a DH/WH combination to the Doubles Tournament at GT baltimore...with 2 total troops and 2 Land Raiders 1 squad of GKs, 1 squad of sisters. Won all of our games, even when the mission had 5 objectives to hold. We didn't lose a single Land Raider all day, and the only game we didn't get max battle on was when my LRC failed a dangerous terrain test that would have put it and the squad inside on top of the objective in a 2-objective mission, and prevented the opponents from getting close enough to contest.

At 1500, 2 troops gets the job done, if those troops are protected enough. Admittedly, your margin for error is close to zero, and you're hosed against Dark Eldar, but aside from that, you're pretty good to go.

Amusing 1500 Daemonhunters

Ozymandias — GMT

MauleedlovesYakeface wrote:Yes Death Rollers work on vehicles. If you guys at Dakka say they can't that is some real good word screwing you are doing to not allow it.

GBF - The wording of instant kill and the wording of NFW are two different things. To make it easier you have an orange and a blood orange. They look alike but they are different.

Do a search, this has been done to death. Ramming =/= Tank Shock. Coincidentally, this is also the answer you get if you email the new and improved rules boyz.

Green Blow Fly wrote:How can you say kills outright does not instantly kill the model?

G

Instant Death is different from instant death. Not everything that kills a model outright uses the ID rule. EW USR only protects against ID. Seriously, you are the only one arguing against this, let it go.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Amusing 1500 Daemonhunters

Centurian99 — GMT

Green Blow Fly wrote:How can you say kills outright does not instantly kill the model?

G

We don't. But "Instant Death" is a game mechanic. And a really well defined one for GW. It's always capitalized, and its clearly defined. Weapons/powers that cause it always use that exact wording and capitalization: "Instant Death".

DH force weapons do not.

Hence, they do not cause "Instant Death".

Otherwise, GBF, please set forth your argument that models with Eternal Warrior that are hit with a SAG-12 are not removed as casualties.

Amusing 1500 Daemonhunters

Black Blow Fly — GMT

I know I am being hard headed. I appreciate everyone who has bared with me. I predict this will be FAQd.

Anyways I am glad to see someone besides me believes the landraider is very viable. I am definitely going ahead in 2009 with my new SM army.

G

Amusing 1500 Daemonhunters

Black Blow Fly — GMT

On another note I think SAG-12 is a red herring when it comes to the subject of kills outright and EW.

G

Amusing 1500 Daemonhunters

Ozymandias — GMT

*faceslap*

No, it's an example of something that causes death instantly without using the ID rules.

You calling it a red herring is a red herring.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Amusing 1500 Daemonhunters

Black Blow Fly — GMT

* shrugs to avoid skull knock not officially recognized as face slap *

G

Amusing 1500 Daemonhunters

Black Blow Fly — GMT

Okay I read the rules this evening... I am the kind of person that has to read it myself... I was definitely wrong. The rules for instant death even state that an attack that is 2*S => T ouright kills the model. So I have to eat some crow now.

G

Amusing 1500 Daemonhunters

MJThurston — GMT

Should I mention Wraith Weapons and insta kill?

Amusing 1500 Daemonhunters

Black Blow Fly — GMT

Make a list and then we can rank them as based upon their threat levels.

G

Amusing 1500 Daemonhunters

GorillaTactics — GMT

Make sure you advanced register for Gorilla con though,

2 reasons.

#1 it's limited to 50 players and Ive heard from, read on forums of more then 50 people planning to attend.

#2 there is a contest that is only winnable if you pre-register. you get free new ork stuff!

Re:Amusing 1500 Daemonhunters

kormas — GMT

wow, first off, that list looks VERY nasty, 3 landraiders HOLY that will hurt alot.
and slightly off topic, one of my friends will be VERY happy to hear that force weapons in the DH codex ignore eternal warrior, my daemon prince will no longer be safe

Re:Amusing 1500 Daemonhunters

augustus5 — GMT

One thing to think about fluff wise when talking about the DH force weapon issue is that the weapons are not even called force weapon, but rather Nemesis force weapon. It's not a stretch to think that GKs would be equipped with the very best force weapons in the Imperium.