<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Special Character with Points Limitations"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/15.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Special Character with Points Limitations
Can an Independent Character with a point limit (like 1500 or more) be used in a 1500 point game (his points added in to make the 1500). My gut tells me no, that Is minimum 1500 and then his points.

This only recently has come up because most of the armies I play against are finally into the 1500-2000 point range and with most FOC spots filled bring on the special dudes. Since I dont run an army whose special characters are worth it I haven't had to figure this one out.

Help would be appreciated.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/509446.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/509446.page GMT Special Character with Points Limitations
Thus, a 1315 point army with Corteaz added to it becomes a 1500 point army, so he's legal for that army.

I'm not sure you could make the case for Corteaz being legal in a 1499 army though--not by the RAW.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/509462.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/509462.page GMT Special Character with Points Limitations http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/509509.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/509509.page GMT Re:Special Character with Points Limitations HQ's now....bring on Gaz.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/509931.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/509931.page GMT Special Character with Points Limitations
What rule(s) from a rulebook support(s) your conclusion?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/510002.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/510002.page GMT Special Character with Points Limitations TFG]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/510014.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/510014.page GMT Special Character with Points Limitations GW rulebooks, codexes etc often state that a 1499pt army (for example) can be considered a 1500pt army for all intents and purposes. This is particularly relevant in Fantasy as it affects the number of core, special and rare units, but it applies to 40K too.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/510063.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/510063.page GMT Special Character with Points Limitations
Try reading page 86 of the Warhammer 40,000 5th edition rulebook under the heading 'Organising A Battle'. You'll see army sizes are dictated by the agreed points limit, not how many points you have actually spent.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/510070.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/510070.page GMT Special Character with Points Limitations
If I was the judge, I would. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/510097.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/510097.page GMT Special Character with Points Limitations RAW says" argument all over again from scratch.

I'm not talking about what a judge at a tournament says or who is the TFG. I personally would let somebody with a 1499 army take Corteaz no problem.

But this conclusion is not supported by any rule.

My support for my conclusion, Ghaz, is that there is no evidence that I can find in any rulebook that says a 1499 point army is a 1500 point army. Since it's mathematically impossible, I believe the burden of proof is on you to show the rule that says they are equivalent.

I don't see anything on page 86 that suggests a RAW equivalency between a 1499 pt army and a 1500 pt army. I do see this:

"[Players] may agree to play a 1000 points game, in which case the total value of all models in each player's force must come to 1000 points or less (it will often be a few points short, but it still counts as a 1000 points game)."

If the last word in that sentence were "army" and not "game," I would totally agree with you guys. But it says "game."

So I think you guys are all equivocating. Yes, you can have a 1499 army in a 1500 point *game.* But that doesn't make your army a 1500 point *army.*

Since the rule I cited from the Daemonhunters Codex specifies that the *army* (not the *game*) must be 1500 points or more, a 1499 point army does not cut it by the RAW.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/510287.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/510287.page GMT Special Character with Points Limitations Eff
Gee]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/510473.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/510473.page GMT Special Character with Points Limitations
MagickalMemories wrote:Tee
Eff
Gee


Kew
Eff
Tee

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/510495.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/510495.page GMT Special Character with Points Limitations GW ment it to mean the same thing or different we all know how GW like to use ten different words to say one thing.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/510521.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/510521.page GMT Special Character with Points Limitations Dee
[space]
Aitch
Ohh
Emm
Eye
Enn
Eee
Emm]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/510524.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/510524.page GMT Special Character with Points Limitations http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/510546.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/510546.page GMT Special Character with Points Limitations
good to have you back. Missed you ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/510718.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/510718.page GMT Special Character with Points Limitations http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/510968.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/510968.page GMT Special Character with Points Limitations

And Ghaz you are spot on in your conclusion.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/510996.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/510996.page GMT Special Character with Points Limitations
And since you have worked very hard to stake your claim as a very literal Rules adjudicator....

The rule in the codex states it must be at least a 1500 point army. So there is the rule you are looking for. It must be a 1500 point army.

Now, you are claiming that a 1495 pt army is the 'same' as a 1500 point army, as long as it is used during a 1500 point game.
Since you are claiming that they are the same, the onus is on you to provide a rule stating that they are the same. Permissive rules and all that...

To review what is actually stated on p.86...
It says players often play the game by selecting a point limit. That is the limit, and the forces must be at that or below.
It goes on to state that when you are playing a 1000 point game, even if you bring a lower point army, you are still considered to be playing a 1000 point game.

But no where does it state that bringing a lower point army is the same as bringing a 1000 point army.

So, from the strict RAW.... if you decide to play a 1500 point game. You are limited to a max of 1500 pts. Regardless of how many points are in your army, you are playing a 1500 point game.
If you bring a 1500 point army, you are playing a 1500 point game.
If you bring a 1495 point army, you are playing a 1500 point game.

The difference, is that while you are playing a 1500 point game, you are doing it with a 1495 point *army*.
And the codex says the *army* needs to be 1500pts or more.

If the codex said it could be used in a 1500 point game... there would be no problem.

Or do you have a rule that actually supports your claims otherwise...??]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/511013.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/511013.page GMT Special Character with Points Limitations
The first thing players need to do when arranging a game is to decide what points limit they are going to use. For example, they may agree to play a 1,000 points game, in which case the total value of all models in each player force must come to 1,000 points or less (it will often be a few points short, but it still counts as a 1,000 points game).

So a in a '1,000 point game' you use '1,000 point armies'.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/511043.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/511043.page GMT Special Character with Points Limitations
TFG]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/511082.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/511082.page GMT Special Character with Points Limitations
Nurgleboy77 wrote:Wow, is this really being argued?

Yes it is. Welcome to Dakka Dakka and YMDC.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/511093.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/511093.page GMT Special Character with Points Limitations
In all the years I've been butting heads with Ghaz, I've never seen him admit the possibility of being wrong. This time when I saw him come out and make this totally unsupported claim, I thought "Aha! I finally have him!" I still don't think he's going to break down, but I have to give it a go.

This is an historic occasion in the history of YMDC, boys. Don't give us a hard time about arguing possibly the most inanely hair-splitting point in the last several years. Just pick your side and dive into the carnage, old-school style...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/511115.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/511115.page GMT Special Character with Points Limitations
If it is true that an army of X points depends not on the number of points spent, but rather on the limit of the game, then that means you can take an army significantly smaller than the limit and still include a special character.

So for example, I can take an army of 500 points and argue that, since the limit on a 1500 point game is a force of "1500 points or less" that this is a legal army for a 1500 point game.

Then, since a 500 point army is a legal "1500 point army" under your definition, I can put that 500 point army into a 500 point game and claim the fact that this is also a legal "1500 point army" gives me permission for the special character, since my army is also technically a legal 1500 point army that just happens to be 1000 points short of the limit.

If you don't impose the restriction as a hard limit, by the RAW, then it doesn't function as any kind of restriction at all.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/511125.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/511125.page GMT Special Character with Points Limitations
Flavius Infernus wrote:Then, since a 500 point army is a legal "1500 point army" under your definition, I can put that 500 point army into a 500 point game and claim the fact that this is also a legal "1500 point army" gives me permission for the special character, since my army is also technically a legal 1500 point army that just happens to be 1000 points short of the limit.

What a pile of BS. Try actually supporting your claims instead of trying to pass off such twisted 'logic'. Once again, you're trying to pass off the number of points spent in your second example instead of the agreed game size. The agreed game size determines the army size, not the points spent. So no, you can't pass off your '1,500 point army' in a 500 point game because you've only spent 500 points.

If you agree to a 1,500 point game, you have a 1,500 point army regardless of how many points you've actually spent (upto 1,500 points).

If you agree to a 500 point game, you have a 500 point army, regardless of how many ponts you've spent (upto 500 points).

You can not claim to have a '1,500 point army' in a '500 point game' just because you've only spent 500 points in a 1,500 point game once.

Now do you have an actual logical argument, or are you simply going to keep trolling?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/511160.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/511160.page GMT Re:Special Character with Points Limitations RAW or RAI), but here goes...

The main rulebook has not used point totals to refer to army sizes since 3rd edition. For example, on page 122 the text uses the phrasing "As a guideline, a battle between two 1,000 point armies ..." Note that later in the same edition in the section for choosing forces, the text refers to point values for the game instead of point values for the armies. On page 167, "Choosing an Army" the text is quite clear that the size of an army is the point limit.

Neither 4th edition nor 5th edition refer to the concept of army sizes and instead refer to point limits for games. Therefore, army sizes are a discontinued game mechanic just like target priority tests, outnumbering in close combat and minor psychic powers.

In conclusion, you should feel free to use the old points restricted characters whenever you'd like.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/511170.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/511170.page GMT Special Character with Points Limitations
On the bright side, there aren't too many armies with point limitations for special characters. DH happen to be one of them, but you're also able to take very low-point options for pretty much every character and squad leader in your army. Frag grenades and targetters are 1 point each, searchlights for vehicles are another 1 point. Auspexes have a * meaning they can even be given to terminators. You have lots of options for filling up those last few points.

Just be happy you're not playing Deathwing. It's hard finding something to even fill out that last 100 points, let alone another 5.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/511185.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/511185.page GMT Special Character with Points Limitations
The whole 'I can bring a 500 point army with a 1500 point special character because it's actually a 1500 point army' argument is complete crap because you didn't agree to play a 1500 point game, you agreed to a 500 point game. You can't bring a '1500 counts as 500' point army for the same reason that I can't play a 4,000 point army against my opponent's 350 point list; it's not the point value we agreed on. I can tell him that my eight baneblades count as the same number of points as his tac squad with chaplain in a rhino, but something tells me that he won't believe me.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/511408.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/511408.page GMT Special Character with Points Limitations
Ghaz wrote:.

Now do you have an actual logical argument, or are you simply going to keep trolling?


Okay, my actual logical argument has two parts:

(1) There's no basis in the rules for the assumption "Any army in a X point game is by definition an X point army." This conclusion can't be the sound result of any argument I can make based on rules from the book. It always requires a leap of equivocation between the word "game" and the word "force/army" since, as NinjaRobotofDeath correctly pointed out, the term "X point army" is undefined in 5th edition rules.

(2) So falling back to the dictionary to define the term "X point army" (since the rules don't define it for us) you get the following sound argument:
P1: "Any Daemonhunters army of 1500 points or more may include Inquisitor Lord Torquemada Corteaz as a Special Character."
P2: An army of 1499 points is not an army of 1500 points or more.
C: A Daemonhunters army of 1499 points may not include Inquisitor Lord Torquemada Corteaz as a Special Character.

I'm using the specific case of Corteaz here to avoid having to refer to vague generalities, but the same argument applies to any character whose rule is phrased this way.

P2 is the sticking point, and my support for arguing that it's true, is that it's mathematically impossible for 1499 to equal 1500. Under dictionary definitions of the terms "1499 point army" and "1500 point army" it's not possible for them to be equivalent.

Unless there's a rule or sound argument that explicitly states that a 1499 army in a can somehow count as a 1500 point army in a 1500 point game, Ghaz's argument has to *assume* that it does, thus becoming unsound.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/511449.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/511449.page GMT Re:Special Character with Points Limitations GW assume a certain amount of maturity and common sense and wants people to make judicious use of the RaI principle, not people not being "That Effing Guy." Clearly this is a mistake on their part as there are hundreds of thousands of Those Effing Guys. Instead of using their brains to interpret things in an adult way, they use RaW to justify arguing over semantics when even they themselves say "Oh yeah, I'd totally let people get away with it, but the rules don't SAY that".

This is a doubly serious problem when in tournament play, as some of Those Effing Guys (not even many of them, thankfully) value a win by disqualifying the opponent army just as much as actually winning a battle. Unfortunate but true.

There is a general rule in al RPG and Wargaming that the rules take second place to common sense and, even more importanlty, FUN, but GW makes it explicit in the W40K rulebook. Remember, the most important rule is that the rules are not all that important.

There is little or not point even joining the argument. Half of Those Effing Guys are just doing it to get a reaction anyway. Do you really want to help them indulge in their little games by letting them get to you?

The original question is a valid one, though with, IMO, a simple answer. Arguing over 1499 vs 1500 is absurd.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/511479.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/511479.page GMT Special Character with Points Limitations
Ghaz wrote:

The first thing players need to do when arranging a game is to decide what points limit they are going to use. For example, they may agree to play a 1,000 points game, in which case the total value of all models in each player force must come to 1,000 points or less (it will often be a few points short, but it still counts as a 1,000 points game).

So a in a '1,000 point game' you use '1,000 point armies'.


Ghaz, read your quote again. No where in that quote does it define that playing a 1000pt game is the exact same as using a 1000pt army. No where.

The rule states that if you play a 1000pt game, you are limited to 1000pts.
It says that if you bring a 900pt army, you are still playing a 1000pt *game*
No where does it say that if you bring a 900 pt army, you are playing with a 1000pt army.

Read the last parenthetical statement again, it does *not* say that you count as having a 1000pt army, it says you count as still playing a 1000pt game.

What rule are you using that defines than any army in a 1000pt game, is in fact a 1000pt army?

The entire page talks about how an an army of X points is not how many points you spend, but what points limit you agree on. from page 86 of the Warhammer 40,000 5th edition rulebook:
No, the entire page talks about how an *game* of 1000pts is not how many points you spend, but what points you limit you agree to. You need to find a rule that equates the terms Game and Army.

Neither 4th edition nor 5th edition refer to the concept of army sizes and instead refer to point limits for games. Therefore, army sizes are a discontinued game mechanic just like target priority tests, outnumbering in close combat and minor psychic powers.
Not a bad argument. But that means that you can take them in *any* size army, since there is no "army size" anymore.


I don't think it's even a "yes technically" scenario. If you're playing a 1500 point game, then by definition the armies you're using are going to be 1500 point armies.
Ah, and there is the rub. Can you provide the rule that gives that definition? The one Ghaz keeps pointing out only deals with the size of a 'game', not the 'army'.



Lets simpify:
We can all agree on several things.
1) You can pick a limit for the size of the armies (lets say 1500pts)
2) This means you are playing a "1500 point game"
3) You can not bring a 1600 pt army to this game.
4) If you bring a 1400pt army to this game, you are still playing a "1500 pt game"

The only bone of contention is:
5)If you play a 1500 point game, and bring a 1400pt army, is that the same as bringing a 1500 point army?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/511529.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/511529.page GMT Re:Special Character with Points Limitations
Common Sense interpretation (not RaW)

1400 points is not the same as 1495 points for the purposes of army size.

1495 is because you can't find anywhere to spend 5 points - your army list doesn't make it possible. (though normally you could FIND something like grenades or a grot oiler etc to spend the points)

1400 is because you either don't have enough models or have CHOSEN to be under for some obscure reason. In some circumstances this might even be an advantage, for example in an annihilation game 'cos everything that cheap is ineffective against your chosen opponent and you don't want to hand over free kill points.

I suppose someone might be trying to prove they can beat a 1500 points army with 1000 points, in which case they SHOULD follow the restrictions of a 1000 point army, even if there opponent is not.

The rulebook talks about being a few points short as still counting as that size, not being a few dozen or a few hundred under.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/511553.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/511553.page GMT Special Character with Points Limitations
coredump wrote:Ghaz, read your quote again. No where in that quote does it define that playing a 1000pt game is the exact same as using a 1000pt army. No where.

And yet again from page 86 of the Warhammer 40,000 5th edition rulebook:

... For example, they may agree to play a 1,000 points game, in which case the total value of all models in each player force must come to 1,000 points or less..."

If you agree to a 1,000 point game, you have a force (a.k.a army) of a 1,000 points or less. Now how about taking care of the gaping holes in your own argument instead of nitpicking a minor flaw in somebody else's argument for a change.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/511907.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/511907.page GMT Special Character with Points Limitations
Ghaz wrote:If you agree to a 1,000 point game, you have a force (a.k.a army) of a 1,000 points or less. Now how about taking care of the gaping holes in your own argument instead of nitpicking a minor flaw in somebody else's argument for a change.


The special characters say that an army of X amount of points or more is required to take them. So if you take less than X, would you still be allowed to take them even if X was the agreed upon points limit.

This discussion is not about how you would play the game. Everyone of course knows that 1499 is good enough for 1500, and you most of the time can't find a way to spend the odd point. However, this discussion is an exercise into what the RAW actually says, and it's interesting to discuss the rules in this context, for the purpose of finding holes that may lead to arguments over the course of a game. It's very possible that two different interpretations of a rule such as this could exist in different gaming circles, and it could be very frustrating travelling between them and attempting to play even a friendly game.

So basically, all you whining that Flav is "TFG" for suggesting this kind of thing, this discussion does not concern you in the least.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/511989.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/511989.page GMT Special Character with Points Limitations http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/511998.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/511998.page GMT Special Character with Points Limitations
Ghaz wrote:
... For example, they may agree to play a 1,000 points game, in which case the total value of all models in each player force must come to 1,000 points or less..."

If you agree to a 1,000 point game, you have a force (a.k.a army) of a 1,000 points or less. Now how about taking care of the gaping holes in your own argument instead of nitpicking a minor flaw in somebody else's argument for a change.

That rule states that if you are playing a 1000pt game, then you must have an (army) of 1,000 pts or less. I agree 100%. If you have a 900pt army, you can still play in the 1000pt game. But if you have a 900pt army, that is *not* the same as having a 1000pt army.

Now, instead of conflating the words 'army' and 'game' for the third (fourth?) time, can you find an actual rule that says having a 900pt army is the same as having a 1000pt army? Again, not that you can use it in a 1000pt game, we all agree to that. But that it is the same (or even counts as) having a 1000pt army. *Army* being the key word here.

Now how about taking care of the gaping holes in your own argument instead of nitpicking a minor flaw in somebody else's argument for a change.
I have laid out my argument in detail. Detail which you have ignored.... while you claim there are gaping holes. Now c'mon ghaz, you are the King of RAW, so please, find the rule....

And again, yes you would because if you agree to a 1,500 point game, then you have a 1,500 point army.
Now you just need a rule to actually support that claim and you will be correct.....

To get a Kids meal, you must be under 10yrs old. So both the 9 and 8 yr old can take part.... but being 8 is not the same as being 9.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/512034.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/512034.page GMT Special Character with Points Limitations
The 'game' itself does not have any 'points' except for those that the armies involved use. A '1,500 point game' literally means that the armies being used in the game are 1,500 ponts each. The rules make that abundantly clear. Nothing in your arguments has the least bit of support from the rules that a '1,500 point army' means anything other than what I keep saying that it does. There is nothing else that it could mean that can be supported by the rules in the least.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/512087.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/512087.page GMT Special Character with Points Limitations RAW discussions. Calling me names doesn't address my arguments, and anybody can claim anything as common sense.

Ghaz: You're just reiterating your original bald assertion and pointing to page 86 without actually quoting anything. Saying that the "rules make it abundantly clear" without any support is a statement of opinion that I don't agree with.

If you really think you have a case for the assertion that "A '1,500 point game' literally means that the armies being used in the game are 1,500 ponts each," then show me the sound argument using quotes from page 86 that leads you to this conclusion. I've shown you my sound argument; if you don't have one, then just admit it.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/512912.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/512912.page GMT Special Character with Points Limitations http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/513039.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/513039.page GMT Special Character with Points Limitations OP at all.

Locking thread.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/513051.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/226613/513051.page GMT