Latest posts for the thread "2000pt Daemons"

2000pt Daemons

Obeisance — GMT

I keep hearing about how Daemons have suddenly become "brutal", "are winning tournament"' and what have you.

I put a list together, sure it looks good. But I clearly don't see how the army really meshes.

Anywho.

So what I was hoping to get from this post, is to gain an understanding of what's going into these supposed winning daemon lists?

If someone could point me to lists/batreps/tactica crucial to understanding how Daemons are winning, that'd be just fantastic.

I'm thinking about cannibalizing my WHFB daemon army.

So yeah.

Little help please?

2000pt Daemons

Obeisance — GMT

Since posting this, I've done a lot of reading and re-written my list. Keep in mind I play in a fairly compy environment.

275 - Thirster: Might, Blessing.
125 - Herald of Khorne: Chariot, Might, Icon.
125 - Herald of Khorne: Chariot, Might, Icon.

160 - 4 Crushers.
160 - 4 Crushers.

128 - 8 Bloodletters.
128 - 8 Bloodletters.
128 - 8 Bloodletters.
100 - 5 Horrors: Bolt, The Changeling.
95 - 5 Horrors: Bolt.
95 - 5 Horrors: Bolt.

160 - Soul Grinder: Phlegm.
160 - Soul Grinder: Phlegm.
160 - Soul Grinder: Phlegm.

1999pts/53 models.

Team A, play offensive.
Thirster, Herald, all Crushers, all Grinders.

Team B, play defensive.
Herald, all the troops.

Thoughts? You know, now that I've put some effort in.

2000pt Daemons

tallmantim — GMT

Hi

Check out the batreps by this guy over at WS:

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153826

Not only are the excellent batreps (if only WD could do them like this!), his tactics with Daemons is excellent.

He stated in one that he has stopped taking an all Tzeench army as it is too powerful.

HTH

2000pt Daemons

Airmaniac — GMT

If you want to be competitive with Daemons then here is a list of some useable units:

Fateweaver, Oracle of Tzeentch
Great Unclean One

Bloodcrushers
Flamers

Plaguebearers

Soul Grinders

A lot of competitive Daemon players tend to combine Fateweaver and a lot of Bloodcrushers. For troops, Plaguebearers are best. They aren't going to kill anything though, so you might as well make their units minimum size and take more of them (for objective purposes). To get some extra anti-tank and anti-horde into the list, they add Soul Grinders with Phlegm.

2000pt Daemons

Obeisance — GMT

I actually read a lot of his batreps when I was browsing around Warseer. (eesh, I almost called it Portent.)

I'll go back and re-read the Khornate ones.

Placement of my Icons. Should I have them on the Chariots or Bloodletters? I don't particularly want to splash Nurgle, as I already own all the troop choices, once I take them off of 25mm square.

Phlegm is better than Tongue, right? Or should I mix it up with like 2 Phelgm, 1 Tongue?

Re:2000pt Daemons

Razerous — GMT

For the possibility of seeing a LR/monolith @ 2k.. yes, definetely.

Also.. swap a horror sqaud for a 3man flamer squad? Breath of choas just looks too useful to pass up.

Re:2000pt Daemons

Obeisance — GMT

Mm. I'm not really scared of Necrons, yet alone a Monlith.

I mean really. The only thing in the Necron army that can actually kill the Grinders are either a) Particle Whip or b) Heavy Destroyers, c) 345 glancing hits or d) mystery veil rear shots.

I'll just fleet on in and crush the Monolith with dreadnought ccws.

It just occurred to me that I can squash any tanks with dccws. I don't think Tongue is really that useful.

I'm also looking for advice on unit division in Daemonic Assault.

2000pt Daemons

extrenm(54) — GMT

Its a good list. I would not give Icons to heralds, they could die too easily. Also, you might want to think about taking skulltaker instead of one of the heralds. The only thing you cant reliably kill is AV 14, and everyone had a problem killing that, so I would say the list is not lacking anti-tank.

2000pt Daemons

Obeisance — GMT

Mmm.

T5 W4 3+/5++
vs
T4 W8 5++

I think it's actually pretty close.

The Herald is far more resilient than the Letters, but it's 4 wounds vs 8. But if I gave the Letters my Icons I'd have to beef them up a bit.

2000pt Daemons

JD21290 — GMT

might be worth trying to get some free points and splash out on skulltaker in a chariot, with give you alot more impact for your points

2000pt Daemons

Obeisance — GMT

Skulltaker is 160 with Chariot.

Herald of Khorne on Chariot with Icon and Strength is only 125.

And then I've got to replace the Icon. Means I've got to find 60pts to include him. This list is so tight for points and I'm not comfortable dropping the troop choices to any smaller size. Nor do I want less Juggernauts.

No sale on Skulltaker.

2000pt Daemons

Warmaster — GMT

If you look under batreps on this site for my name you will find a ton of daemons battle reports. My current tzeentch list which I used for a campaign from 1250pts - 2000pts. I also put up the army list and battle reports for the army list I used at the Baltimore GT.

Your list is going to suffer against mechanized armies. If you draw eldar or Tau in a kill point game you are basically going to be screwed, you have one unit that can catch up to a fast moving vehicle.

Grinders are great for popping tanks in hth, the problem is that depending on what tank they popped whats coming out is going to kill you. A pure Sisters of Battle list would more than likely eat this build. The sisters want you to get close and get all bunched up.

Horde orks are going to give you a run for the money, but you would fair okay vs. a nob biker list.

Your list is plenty killy in hth. You would be much better off imho replacing your khorne heralds with tzeentch heralds, plus it might be a bit more fluffy since you are using tzeentch troops. I would swap a unit of horrors or a unit of bloodletters to add in some flamers. The flamers are easy kp but almost always get their points back. I would also suggest freeing up some points to put the instrument and fury of khaine on each of the crusher units to maximize wound allocation rules.

Tongue is an interesting one. What exactly do you need the phlegm shot for? Between letters, bloodthirster, and bloodletters you don't really need any more ap3 killing. What you need desperately is ranged anti-tank. Because of your list composition I would probably either go with naked grinders or tongue. At baltimore 2 our of 5 games the tongue really helped, the other three it wasn't really needed. But getting 3 shots off, even at bs 3 usually means you can pop one tank a turn with them.

2000pt Daemons

Obeisance — GMT

Warmaster: I see you play pretty-much Tzeentch/Slaanesh. I really only wanted to run light Tzeentch for controlling armour and didn't want to touch Slaanesh at all.

I was thinking Phlegm, because it's a large blast. It eats large units. I mean, I've got no idea what I should be doing against horde orks anyway. Apart from dropping my Grinders on thier faces because they don't do too well against AV13+. (I play mixed orks.)

It amuses me that you're directing me to return my list to it's previous state.

It was basically the same list.

Except it had Tzeentch chariot caster heralds, plaguebearers and flamers.

It was basically this..

Thirster: Might, Blessing.
Herald: Chariot, Bolt, Second spell, multiple targets.
Herald: Chariot, Bolt, Second spell, multiple targets.

3 Crushers.
3 Crushers.
3 Flamers.

8 Bearers: Icon.
8 Bearers: Icon.
12 Letters.
5 Horrors: Bolt, The Changeling.
5 Horrors: Bolt.

Grinder: Phlegm.
Grinder: Phlegm.
Grinder: Phlegm.
1997.

...

I think the best idea might be to just trade the Phlegm for Tongue and try to swing some Flamers.

Like, I don't really want to play with Tzeentch Heralds. I want killy. Not shooty.

Though, if I didn't already have a Khorne/Tzeentch WHFB army to eat, I'd have gone with Tzeentch Daemons.

So how does one deal with Hoarde Orks? I know there's a couple touring my tournament area.

Re:2000pt Daemons

Obeisance — GMT

Ok, so I've had a massive rethink. In fact, about 2 hours of reading threads and battle reports.

275 - Thirster: Might, Blessing.
110 - HoT: Chariot, Breath, Master, Legion.
110 - HoT: Chariot, Breath, Master, Legion.
I figure with the Tongues and Bolts, I can shred infantry instead. Or just more Bolts?

170 - 4 Crushers: Fury.
170 - 4 Crushers: Fury.
Had 20pts left.
105 - 3 Flamers.

128 - 8 Letters.
128 - 8 Letters.
128 - 8 Letters.
100 - 5 Horrors: Bolt, The Changeling.
95 - 5 Horrors: Bolt.

160 - Grinder: Tongue.
160 - Grinder: Tongue.
160 - Grinder: Tongue.
I figure that a) I need to pop tanks and b) it comes with a S6 flamer.

1999pts with 51 models.

No icons at all. I think this might be a good idea.

Primary: Thirster, Flamers, Crushers, Crushers, Grinder, Grinder, Grinder.
Secondary: Herald, Herald, Letters, Letters, Letters, Horrors, Horrors.

I like this list a lot more.

Any thoughts?

2000pt Daemons

Warmaster — GMT

@Obeisance: I started with a tzeentch/slaanesh list that worked very nicely. I then was playing a skittles daemon list (a bit of everything). Lately I was experimenting with the mono-tzeentch list just to see if it would be effective and fluffy at the same time.

You'll find that the flamer template is better against horde armies than the phlegm. Especially since you will want to get the grinders in hth as soon as possible. With your list you will want to get the grinders down first and close to the enemy. Against orky horde I would actually try to go first if at all possible. Only because you can actually drop at about 13-18 with the grinders and not get assaulted. Bring in the crushers and thirster behind the grinders and hope the grinders can hold the line for a turn. Suicide drop the flamers on the loota's and hope you can weather a round of shooting. If the ork player goes first I would go for a very risky assault with the grinders to go for template hits and to force him to deal with them asap.

Tzeentch heralds do not do well in rapid fire range or assault range. With their jetbike move it's very easy for them to get behind tanks to deliver 1 str 8 and 3 str 5 shots into rear armor. You really don't ever want them close enough to an enemy squad for them to be able to use the breath template. If you really want to do the breath template, drop we are legion and pick up the sword, that way you at least have a power weapon, 5 str 4 pw hits isn't all that bad, although their bs of 2 really does hurt.

The 5 man horror squads are going to die very quickly. If you want them to survive a round I would combine the two units and go with 1 of 9.

I always like my armies to have an odd number of dropping units so I can pick the waves better, I also try to never go in with my primary/secondary already planned out. I like to wait until I see my opponents deployment before deciding anything. If you get into a habit of thinking "this is my a team" you start to miss out on opportunities.

I think the list right now would do fine, but I think you might like it a bit more if you switched to bolt on the heralds and combined the two horror squads into one 9. If you really wanted to get crazy you could pull the 2 furies off of the crushers and use the 27 points you saved off of combining the horrors (and your extra point) and add in a 3 man unit of screamers .

2000pt Daemons

Obeisance — GMT

Hmmmmm! I've been sitting here toying with the math for a bit.

Advice taken. List re-written.

275 - Mr Thirsty: Strength, Blessing.
110 - HoT: Chariot, Bolt, We Are Legion, Master of Sorcery.
110 - HoT: Chariot, Bolt, We Are Legion, Master of Sausages.

160 - 4 Crushers.
160 - 4 Crushers.
105 - 3 Flamers.

128 - 8 Bloodletters.
128 - 8 Bloodletters.
128 - 8 Bloodletters.
168 - 9 Horrors: Bolt, Changeling.

48 - 3 Screamers.

160 - Grinder: Tongue.
160 - Grinder: Tongue.
160 - Grinder: Tongue.

2000pts exactly.

Is that ENOUGH troops?

2000pt Daemons

Obeisance — GMT

I swear this is like the only forum that actually discusses Daemon stuff. Everywhere else seems to blow.

2000pt Daemons

Warmaster — GMT

I would say go for it and try it out. You should be fine on troops, you may just find that your bloodletters and horrors spend a lot of time doing push ups .

If you can get him to post in here Centurian99 really likes the huge bloodcrusher squad, he's been running an 8 man for a while now. If you really seem to be getting stomped by orks a lot you could try that out. The use on the screamers will be definitely variable, and if you start running into the situation where the kp they are going to give up is hurting you then drop em for icons and upgrades for the crusher squads. I was just amused when I saw that your extra points would buy the 3 man squad.

2000pt Daemons

tzeentchling — GMT

Edit: Realized my suggestions put it back to the one-iteration-before list. I think it's stronger, YMMV, though I like swapping Breath for Bolt on the Heralds.

2000pt Daemons

Centurian99 — GMT

Warmaster wrote:I would say go for it and try it out. You should be fine on troops, you may just find that your bloodletters and horrors spend a lot of time doing push ups .

If you can get him to post in here Centurian99 really likes the huge bloodcrusher squad, he's been running an 8 man for a while now. If you really seem to be getting stomped by orks a lot you could try that out. The use on the screamers will be definitely variable, and if you start running into the situation where the kp they are going to give up is hurting you then drop em for icons and upgrades for the crusher squads. I was just amused when I saw that your extra points would buy the 3 man squad.

Absolutely I'm in favor of the 8-Bloodcrusher squad.

I started out running 4 bloodcrushers +skulltaker on a juggernaut. Hard-hitting, but after the Chicago GT, the unit attracted too much attention for what was really sub-optimal hitting power. Against certain units (i.e. monstrous creatures/wraithlords) skulltaker and the juggers were king, but their vulnerabillity to dreadnoughts and generally low numbers made me move to taking two squads of 4 Bloodcrushers at the Baltimore GT.

My theory was that I could still have them gang-up on enemies together, but if one squad was charged, the other one would still be free to maneuver and assault. Good in theory, but in actual gameplay, what I found was that the a 4-man squad of crushers, even with full upgrades to spread out wounds, was too easily focused on and wiped out. Once that happened, the other squad could potentially kill another unit, but then my opponent would focus on the second squad and wipe it out.

Lately, I've been running a full squad of 8, with full upgrades, and the squad is simply brutal. It soaks up amazing amounts of enemy fire, and there's pretty much nothing in the game that will charge them alone (well, a few, like nob bikers and 10-man terminators). As a side effect, the large footprint of an 8-man squad has proven to be an advantage in every game I've played.

My current list skeleton goes like this (at 1500-1850.)

Bloodthirster /w might
Bluescribes (if points allow)
8 Bloodcrushers
1 or 2 squads of 3 flamers
12+ bloodletters /w icon
1 medium-sized squad of horrors (usuallly 9, for fluff)
1 small-med sized squad of plaguebearers
2 naked grinders

I've run this list against a variety of enemies, and haven't found a list that it couldn't at least deal with.

2000pt Daemons

Obeisance — GMT

Naked grinders?

Isn't tongue or phlegm essential?

That list looks lacking in armour-busting..

Hm. I suppose I could exchange a Herald for Bluescribes and take another unit of Horrors.

...

Drop both Heralds and Screamers, take Blue Scribes and 2x8 Horrors with Bolt, Changeling. Thirster gets a flute.

280 - Thirster: Strength, Instrument, Blessing.
130 - The Bluescribes.

160 - 4 Crushers.
160 - 4 Crushers.
105 - 3 Flamers.

128 - 8 Letters.
128 - 8 Letters.
128 - 8 Letters.
151 - 8 Horrors: Bolt, Changeling.
156 - 8 Horrors: Bolt.

160 - Grinder: Tongue.
160 - Grinder: Tongue.
160 - Grinder: Tongue.

1996. 56 models.

Feels like enough troops. HQ feels fine.

2000pt Daemons

Warmaster — GMT

I wouldn't say tongue and phlegm are essential, it's just that they a fairly cheap upgrade. Soul Grinders really seem to shine when you are getting them stuck in against things. As long as you arent going after dreadnaughts and mc's they are amazing (btw that's what the bloodthirster in the above list is for). They also provide a very valuable 4+ cover save to units deep striking in behind them.

You can rely on hth to pop tank's. You just have to know that whatever was in the tank is going to get to assault you back or get a round of rapid fire. The crushers and bloodletters do an alright job at cracking av10 rear's and the thirster and 2 grinders can crack everything else. You use the flamers early on to shake and stun the vehicle's and every now and then get an immobilize.

2000pt Daemons

Obeisance — GMT

I disagree on relying on HtH to pop tanks. Against "Tanks" sure, but against Skimmers you're just screwed.

2000pt Daemons

Warmaster — GMT

Oh I definitely agree which is why my grinder's have tongues and I use heralds and daemon princes with bolts .

But I didn't want to give you just my viewpoint .

An interesting side to that is a skarbrand list, with his re-rolls to hit I think you could reliably pop skimmers in hth. That might be the next list I work on, just for kicks, either that or a nurgle themed one.

2000pt Daemons

Centurian99 — GMT

I disagree with those who think HTH isn't sufficient to kill tanks. You can basically divide armored targets into three categories:
AV14
Relatively stationary
Skimmers

AV14 targets are why I've got two grinders and a thirster. Between the three of them, I'm pretty confident of being able to deal with multiple land raiders...it only really fell apart when the secondary came in, AND I was facing 5 land raiders at 1850.

Relatively stationary targets (anything that's moving 6" or less, and isn't AV14 all around) can be relatively easily killed by almost anything in HTH that's assault-capable.

Skimmers are the toughest, but also the most expensive. If they're not moving more than 6" a turn, they fall into the prior category. If they're moving more than 12" a turn, they lose shooting effectiveness.

I used to run grinders with phlegm, tried them with tongue, but 90% of the time, I'd rather have the grinders run and take advantage of the fact that they've got fleet. Sure, there are some times when it would be nice for them to have a shooting attack, but I've never actually lost a game because of that.

2000pt Daemons

Warmaster — GMT

I agree that you will pop some tanks, my problem is that you are going to take it up the pants with whatever gets out of said vehicle, if we are talking about transports that is.

Basically you have to be able to survive whatever it is that just got out of their tank. Now granted it's not easy to take out a bloodthirster or that monster unit of bloodcrushers but there are a few things in the game that will put a hurt on them.

2000pt Daemons

tallmantim — GMT

Wow - facing 5 land raiders?

Is that in a tournament?

Sounds cheesy/beardy/minmaxing...

What did they do, put a 5 man scout squad inside each of the LRs to make them count as scoring?

;-)

2000pt Daemons

Centurian99 — GMT

tallmantim wrote:Wow - facing 5 land raiders?

Is that in a tournament?

Sounds cheesy/beardy/minmaxing...

What did they do, put a 5 man scout squad inside each of the LRs to make them count as scoring?

;-)

Just playtesting. 4 Land Raiders was actually more effective...the squads inside became actually useful at that point.

2000pt Daemons

Obeisance — GMT

Well, I'll just run the Grinders with Tongue and see how it goes.

Worst case scenario, I buy another 75pts worth of something.

2000pt Daemons

tallmantim — GMT

Phlegm would be good on entry would it not?

You cannot assault on your first turn, but putting down 3 str 8 pie plates would be pretty cool!

Re:2000pt Daemons

Burning Star IV — GMT

Khorne? Idk, I like Slaanesh...

KoS, Unholy Might, Soporific Musk (220)
KoS, Unholy Might, Soporific Musk (220)

12 Daemonettes, Icon, Instrument (198)
12 Daemonettes, Icon, Instrument (198)
12 Daemonettes, Icon, Instrument (198)
12 Daemonettes, Icon, Instrument (198)

7 Seekers, Icon (144)
7 Seekers, Icon (144)

Grinder, Upgrade to taste (160)
Grinder, Upgrade to taste (160)
Grinder, Upgrade to taste (160)

2000 pts. on the nose.

Nasty.

2000pt Daemons

Obeisance — GMT

I went with Khorne/Tzeentch due to models I already own.

2000pt Daemons

AgeOfEgos — GMT

Centurian99 wrote:
Absolutely I'm in favor of the 8-Bloodcrusher squad.

I started out running 4 bloodcrushers +skulltaker on a juggernaut. Hard-hitting, but after the Chicago GT, the unit attracted too much attention for what was really sub-optimal hitting power. Against certain units (i.e. monstrous creatures/wraithlords) skulltaker and the juggers were king, but their vulnerabillity to dreadnoughts and generally low numbers made me move to taking two squads of 4 Bloodcrushers at the Baltimore GT.

My theory was that I could still have them gang-up on enemies together, but if one squad was charged, the other one would still be free to maneuver and assault. Good in theory, but in actual gameplay, what I found was that the a 4-man squad of crushers, even with full upgrades to spread out wounds, was too easily focused on and wiped out. Once that happened, the other squad could potentially kill another unit, but then my opponent would focus on the second squad and wipe it out.

Lately, I've been running a full squad of 8, with full upgrades, and the squad is simply brutal. It soaks up amazing amounts of enemy fire, and there's pretty much nothing in the game that will charge them alone (well, a few, like nob bikers and 10-man terminators). As a side effect, the large footprint of an 8-man squad has proven to be an advantage in every game I've played.

I've played around with both and in 1850 lists, I must say 3 man crusher units + Herald on Jugger is pretty nasty. Herald on Jugger usually isn't a good buy (chariots are so cheap!) but if you kit out the unit like;

HoK on Crusher
Crusher
Crusher w/ Instrument (there's a reason here)
Crusher w/ Rending

You can spread/allocate over 4 unique models that have 2 wounds each...they tend to stick around. 3 Crushers + Herald can handle most anything..even Dreads when Herald + Rending crusher are in there.

8 Crushers just seems like lash bait.

Re:2000pt Daemons

Centurian99 — GMT

Burning Star IV wrote:Khorne? Idk, I like Slaanesh...

KoS, Unholy Might, Soporific Musk (220)
KoS, Unholy Might, Soporific Musk (220)

12 Daemonettes, Icon, Instrument (198)
12 Daemonettes, Icon, Instrument (198)
12 Daemonettes, Icon, Instrument (198)
12 Daemonettes, Icon, Instrument (198)

7 Seekers, Icon (144)
7 Seekers, Icon (144)

Grinder, Upgrade to taste (160)
Grinder, Upgrade to taste (160)
Grinder, Upgrade to taste (160)

2000 pts. on the nose.

Nasty.

Not really. I'm singularly unimpressed with almost everything Slaanesh. Daemonettes simply don't hit hard enough, and their fleet just lets them get into ineffectual assaults quicker. Those squads are really too small. KoS isn't bad, but I'd rather spend a bit more and get a thirster, or save points and get a GUO.

2000pt Daemons

Centurian99 — GMT

AgeOfEgos wrote:
I've played around with both and in 1850 lists, I must say 3 man crusher units + Herald on Jugger is pretty nasty. Herald on Jugger usually isn't a good buy (chariots are so cheap!) but if you kit out the unit like;

HoK on Crusher
Crusher
Crusher w/ Instrument (there's a reason here)
Crusher w/ Rending

You can spread/allocate over 4 unique models that have 2 wounds each...they tend to stick around. 3 Crushers + Herald can handle most anything..even Dreads when Herald + Rending crusher are in there.

8 Crushers just seems like lash bait.

8 Crushers seem like lash bait, but they start out so close that it really doesn't matter. Plus, the lash player only has so many lashes...if you drop an 8-man crusher squad, a thirster, and a pair of soul grinders, they simply can't deal with everything.

2000pt Daemons

AgeOfEgos — GMT

Centurian99 wrote:
AgeOfEgos wrote:
I've played around with both and in 1850 lists, I must say 3 man crusher units + Herald on Jugger is pretty nasty. Herald on Jugger usually isn't a good buy (chariots are so cheap!) but if you kit out the unit like;

HoK on Crusher
Crusher
Crusher w/ Instrument (there's a reason here)
Crusher w/ Rending

You can spread/allocate over 4 unique models that have 2 wounds each...they tend to stick around. 3 Crushers + Herald can handle most anything..even Dreads when Herald + Rending crusher are in there.

8 Crushers just seems like lash bait.

8 Crushers seem like lash bait, but they start out so close that it really doesn't matter. Plus, the lash player only has so many lashes...if you drop an 8-man crusher squad, a thirster, and a pair of soul grinders, they simply can't deal with everything.

Well, you're adding several points to the demon player without allocating to the CSM player. I normally don't add other units into the equation when discussing specific troops (You can always add to the equation to make a specific unit look better). For example for those pts;

2 Grinders, 8 Crushers, and a BT is around 900ish

8 Oblits, 2 Demon Princes w/ Lash is around 900ish

In addition, Demons are too random to say 'I'll have one BT, 8 Crushers and 2 Soul Grinders to drop'. 33% of the time you won't and they'll come in unit by unit, the other 66% of the time you are forced to DS 3 very large footprint units (2 Grinders + 8 Crushers) + a BT. The only thing alluring about a deep unit of Crushers are two things; 1) There be several wounds in there and 2) You can build your DS circle towards the enemy to crawl forward. On the flip side, DS becomes very dangerous due to footprint, it makes your Grinders/BT harder to place and if they can stall (lash, Dread, Enemy Soul Grinder)...you've lost several points. Nothing beats watching 8 Crushers surround an Ironclad and sit there for several turns.....

Cheers,

Ryan

2000pt Daemons

Centurian99 — GMT

AgeOfEgos wrote:
Well, you're adding several points to the demon player without allocating to the CSM player. I normally don't add other units into the equation when discussing specific troops (You can always add to the equation to make a specific unit look better). For example for those pts;

2 Grinders, 8 Crushers, and a BT is around 900ish

8 Oblits, 2 Demon Princes w/ Lash is around 900ish

Actually, its worse than that, because those units are facing off against the entire Chaos force. Regardless, there's still enough there that the Chaos force has too many targets to engage. That's one wave of my 1500 force, btw. At 1750-1800, I add a squad of horrors with the bluescribes to that wave.

AgeOfEgos wrote:
In addition, Demons are too random to say 'I'll have one BT, 8 Crushers and 2 Soul Grinders to drop'. 33% of the time you won't and they'll come in unit by unit, the other 66% of the time you are forced to DS 3 very large footprint units (2 Grinders + 8 Crushers) + a BT. The only thing alluring about a deep unit of Crushers are two things; 1) There be several wounds in there and 2) You can build your DS circle towards the enemy to crawl forward. On the flip side, DS becomes very dangerous due to footprint, it makes your Grinders/BT harder to place and if they can stall (lash, Dread, Enemy Soul Grinder)...you've lost several points.

The footprint thing is really a non-issue, and has actually worked to my advantage in almost every game I've played (It's never been a negative, just sometimes not important). And the Daemonic Assault rules are themselves a benefit (as well as a hindrance), because the opponent doesn't know what half is coming in.

If you treat Daemonic Assault like its a flaw you need to overcome, you're unnecessarily crippling yourself.

AgeOfEgos wrote:
Nothing beats watching 8 Crushers surround an Ironclad and sit there for several turns.....

Now who's changing the rules. Against Ironclad spam, you run an entirely different deployment, and roles change. Against single ironclads, you simply send the nearest bloodthirster or other greater daemon at them.

2000pt Daemons

enmitee — GMT

Centurian99 wrote:

If you treat Daemonic Assault like its a flaw you need to overcome, you're unnecessarily crippling yourself.

from one daemon player to the other... AMEN!

im definetly gona try an 8 man Crusher squad. are 2 8man crusher squads necessary? unnecessary?

Re:2000pt Daemons

Razerous — GMT

Especially since its got respectable range & you dont need to worry aboout BS3.

Id say phlem vs front AV < Bolt of Tzeenetch vs rear armor on a horror squad.

You drop within 6" hope for the best & kane it in the rear. Then with some luck, youve got instant terrain blocking a good arc of fire. Although possibly a detriment with some horrors.

2000pt Daemons

Obeisance — GMT

Blue Scribes or Caster Chariot Herald?

Which actually leaves me 29pts to tweak. =/

2000pt Daemons

AgeOfEgos — GMT

Centurian99 wrote:
Actually, its worse than that, because those units are facing off against the entire Chaos force. Regardless, there's still enough there that the Chaos force has too many targets to engage. That's one wave of my 1500 force, btw. At 1750-1800, I add a squad of horrors with the bluescribes to that wave.

The footprint thing is really a non-issue, and has actually worked to my advantage in almost every game I've played (It's never been a negative, just sometimes not important). And the Daemonic Assault rules are themselves a benefit (as well as a hindrance), because the opponent doesn't know what half is coming in.

If you treat Daemonic Assault like its a flaw you need to overcome, you're unnecessarily crippling yourself.

Now who's changing the rules. Against Ironclad spam, you run an entirely different deployment, and roles change. Against single ironclads, you simply send the nearest bloodthirster or other greater daemon at them.

Well, as I said before, that's why I don't like adding units to the mix when discussing one specific troop type. However, I still politely disagree with two of your points;

1. Footprints are usually an issue on tables I play. Perhaps I play on tables with more impassable terrain then you do, but DSs are no small risk on tables in my area. Add terrain to the fact that you may not get the 1st turn (Which allows speedy armies to make your DS even more dangerous)...and I would say an unit of 8 Crushers + 2 Grinders is definitely a dangerous footprint.

2. Daemonic Assault is a flaw to overcome. Even more so when you start making very large, expensive units that you may not get until 4th turn...and then only move 6" when they show (If they don't mishap).

Just a clarification as well, I wasn't speaking about Clad spam. With a unit of 8 Crushers they only need 1 Ironclad to effectively neuter the entire 320 pt unit.

Re:2000pt Daemons

AgeOfEgos — GMT

Burning Star IV wrote:Khorne? Idk, I like Slaanesh...

KoS, Unholy Might, Soporific Musk (220)
KoS, Unholy Might, Soporific Musk (220)

12 Daemonettes, Icon, Instrument (198)
12 Daemonettes, Icon, Instrument (198)
12 Daemonettes, Icon, Instrument (198)
12 Daemonettes, Icon, Instrument (198)

7 Seekers, Icon (144)
7 Seekers, Icon (144)

Grinder, Upgrade to taste (160)
Grinder, Upgrade to taste (160)
Grinder, Upgrade to taste (160)

2000 pts. on the nose.

Nasty.

Daemonettes are the weakest units in the book (Perhaps fighting it out with BoN in a non-Epi list). I'm convinced at one point they were going to allow them to DS---Assault....but then decided against it. I can't decide why else they cost so much.

2000pt Daemons

tallmantim — GMT

Interestingly, just crunched the numbers on Daemonettes vs Bloodletters for assaulting power.

Using space marines as the benchmark that you want take out, on a charge a 168 point unit of 12 daemonettes would cause 9.8 wounds against the SM squad - so pretty much a wipe out.

The bloodletters (10.5 of them) would see 14 wounds against the same squad - so even losing a 1.5 daemons due to the points difference, the bloodletter unit is still more deadly (against tough combat units).

So - a win on a charge for the BLs. It then comes down to the other skills and stats.

Daemonettes get fleet - which is very useful indeed when you have no shooting capability! Acquiescence is handy coupled with initiative 6. BLs will attack last against units in cover, however they do get I5 on the first turn.

BLs are able to weather fire better however with their T4.

So - all in all, I would prefer to field BLs than Daemonettes, however they do have a use - assaulting units in cover, fleeting to make it across any difficult ground.

LOL - for a unit to on average annihilate a full strength marine unit is pretty cool. Of course the daemonettes are also very deadly.

Of course you have to get to them first!

2000pt Daemons

tallmantim — GMT

Oh yeah - further crunching.

A BL unit would likely have to be within rapid fire range to attack a unit of tactical marines, whereas a unit of daemonettes could be outside it with fleet.

This would see the marines (assuming crack missile and 3 BLs could be hit by the flamer) cause an average of 4.5 wounds to the BLs and 2.5 to the daemonettes.

This would mean that the reduced assaulting units would cause 8 wounds for the BLs and 7.7 wounds for the daemonettes - much more in line.

The daemonettes would definitely be the better choice in this case if the marines were in cover - especially a bunker, as they would still get to strike first, whereas the marines in a bunker would get to strike down a further 1.2 bloodletters on average before they struck - meaning that the BL would be down to 4.8 daemons and cause only 6.4 wounds on average.

LOL thanks for anyone sticking with me to this point!

;-)

Re:2000pt Daemons

Burning Star IV — GMT

AgeOfEgos wrote:
Burning Star IV wrote:Khorne? Idk, I like Slaanesh...

KoS, Unholy Might, Soporific Musk (220)
KoS, Unholy Might, Soporific Musk (220)

12 Daemonettes, Icon, Instrument (198)
12 Daemonettes, Icon, Instrument (198)
12 Daemonettes, Icon, Instrument (198)
12 Daemonettes, Icon, Instrument (198)

7 Seekers, Icon (144)
7 Seekers, Icon (144)

Grinder, Upgrade to taste (160)
Grinder, Upgrade to taste (160)
Grinder, Upgrade to taste (160)

2000 pts. on the nose.

Nasty.

Daemonettes are the weakest units in the book (Perhaps fighting it out with BoN in a non-Epi list). I'm convinced at one point they were going to allow them to DS---Assault....but then decided against it. I can't decide why else they cost so much.

That's odd. YMMV, but I feel Daemonettes, in numbers great enough, are incredible. With 4 attacks on the charge, and a nullification of an opponent's charge bonus, they're nasty. My 6-model units (depending on how bad ya get shot) repeatedly tear up dedicated assault units and shooting units alike. And Keepers are just as lethal... 7 attacks on the charge? H&R? Fleet? MC!!?? Come now. 250+ for a thirster seems ridiculous in comparison.

Re:2000pt Daemons

AgeOfEgos — GMT

Burning Star IV wrote:

That's odd. YMMV, but I feel Daemonettes, in numbers great enough, are incredible. With 4 attacks on the charge, and a nullification of an opponent's charge bonus, they're nasty. My 6-model units (depending on how bad ya get shot) repeatedly tear up dedicated assault units and shooting units alike. And Keepers are just as lethal... 7 attacks on the charge? H&R? Fleet? MC!!?? Come now. 250+ for a thirster seems ridiculous in comparison.

I have no real issue with the KoS and didn't mention it in my post. I only mentioned Daemonettes.

Daemonettes can't take a round of shooting from anything. Unless you have the beast USR, if you DS you are forced to take a round of shooting.

There is more than enough killy stuff in the Demon dex, your troops should be objective squatters/tough. IE Plaguebearers.
Daemonettes fill no role.

2000pt Daemons

tallmantim — GMT

Wouldn't nurglings make excellent objective sitters?

3 wounds makes them more resilient to things like bolter fire vs plaguebearers - although blasts would be very nasty to them as swarms.

Re:2000pt Daemons

Burning Star IV — GMT

AgeOfEgos wrote:
Burning Star IV wrote:

That's odd. YMMV, but I feel Daemonettes, in numbers great enough, are incredible. With 4 attacks on the charge, and a nullification of an opponent's charge bonus, they're nasty. My 6-model units (depending on how bad ya get shot) repeatedly tear up dedicated assault units and shooting units alike. And Keepers are just as lethal... 7 attacks on the charge? H&R? Fleet? MC!!?? Come now. 250+ for a thirster seems ridiculous in comparison.

I have no real issue with the KoS and didn't mention it in my post. I only mentioned Daemonettes.

Daemonettes can't take a round of shooting from anything. Unless you have the beast USR, if you DS you are forced to take a round of shooting.

There is more than enough killy stuff in the Demon dex, your troops should be objective squatters/tough. IE Plaguebearers.
Daemonettes fill no role.

You didn't bag on the Keeper, but someone above you did.
Sorry if there was any confusion!

2000pt Daemons

AgeOfEgos — GMT

tallmantim wrote:Wouldn't nurglings make excellent objective sitters?

3 wounds makes them more resilient to things like bolter fire vs plaguebearers - although blasts would be very nasty to them as swarms.

Swarms are unable to claim objectives

2000pt Daemons

AgeOfEgos — GMT

tallmantim wrote:Oh yeah - further crunching.

A BL unit would likely have to be within rapid fire range to attack a unit of tactical marines, whereas a unit of daemonettes could be outside it with fleet.

This would see the marines (assuming crack missile and 3 BLs could be hit by the flamer) cause an average of 4.5 wounds to the BLs and 2.5 to the daemonettes.

This would mean that the reduced assaulting units would cause 8 wounds for the BLs and 7.7 wounds for the daemonettes - much more in line.

The daemonettes would definitely be the better choice in this case if the marines were in cover - especially a bunker, as they would still get to strike first, whereas the marines in a bunker would get to strike down a further 1.2 bloodletters on average before they struck - meaning that the BL would be down to 4.8 daemons and cause only 6.4 wounds on average.

LOL thanks for anyone sticking with me to this point!

;-)

Some good number crunching. One non-numerical part of the equation is the weight of mech, as most marine players experienced at facing demons will stay buttoned up in Rhinos until they can rapid fire a unit away. Demons struggle with mech....so I count on troop units I place to receive a good round of fire.

2000pt Daemons

Centurian99 — GMT

AgeOfEgos wrote:
Well, as I said before, that's why I don't like adding units to the mix when discussing one specific troop type. However, I still politely disagree with two of your points;

1. Footprints are usually an issue on tables I play. Perhaps I play on tables with more impassable terrain then you do, but DSs are no small risk on tables in my area. Add terrain to the fact that you may not get the 1st turn (Which allows speedy armies to make your DS even more dangerous)...and I would say an unit of 8 Crushers + 2 Grinders is definitely a dangerous footprint.

Depends on what you're seeing. I've generally not found it to be an issue, even on tables with lots of impassable. If there is lots of impassable, then it may actually be advantageous to hold the 8-man squad in reserve, and place icons on the table instead.

AgeOfEgos wrote:
2. Daemonic Assault is a flaw to overcome. Even more so when you start making very large, expensive units that you may not get until 4th turn...and then only move 6" when they show (If they don't mishap).

I wrote a bit poorly. It's not JUST a flaw to overcome...it's also a potential advantage.

AgeOfEgos wrote:
Just a clarification as well, I wasn't speaking about Clad spam. With a unit of 8 Crushers they only need 1 Ironclad to effectively neuter the entire 320 pt unit.

If you're not talking clad spam, than a Daemon player who lets an ironclad get into assault with Bloodcrushers deserves to have his 360 point unit neutered. (With full upgrades, the squad is 360, and why wouldn't you give a squad like that full upgrades for wound allocation purposes if nothing else.

tallmantim wrote:Wouldn't nurglings make excellent objective sitters?

3 wounds makes them more resilient to things like bolter fire vs plaguebearers - although blasts would be very nasty to them as swarms.

AgeofEgos said it right...nurglings can't claim objectives.

tallmantim wrote:Interestingly, just crunched the numbers on Daemonettes vs Bloodletters for assaulting power.

Using space marines as the benchmark that you want take out, on a charge a 168 point unit of 12 daemonettes would cause 9.8 wounds against the SM squad - so pretty much a wipe out.

The bloodletters (10.5 of them) would see 14 wounds against the same squad - so even losing a 1.5 daemons due to the points difference, the bloodletter unit is still more deadly (against tough combat units).

So - a win on a charge for the BLs. It then comes down to the other skills and stats.

Daemonettes get fleet - which is very useful indeed when you have no shooting capability! Acquiescence is handy coupled with initiative 6. BLs will attack last against units in cover, however they do get I5 on the first turn.

BLs are able to weather fire better however with their T4.

So - all in all, I would prefer to field BLs than Daemonettes, however they do have a use - assaulting units in cover, fleeting to make it across any difficult ground.

LOL - for a unit to on average annihilate a full strength marine unit is pretty cool. Of course the daemonettes are also very deadly.

Of course you have to get to them first!

I'm not sure where you're getting your numbers. Daemonettes are only S3, so against MEQs on the charge, 12 would get 48 attacks, 24 hits, 4 rends, and 4 regular wounds that could be saved.

For a 1 to 1 comparison, the easiest is to compare 8 Daemonettes to 7 Bloodletters, as they're the same point cost.
Vs. MEQs
Daemonettes get 32 attacks, 16 hits, 2.66 rends, and 2.66 regular wounds, so past the saves, you kill 3.56 MEQs
Bloodletters get 21 attacks, 14 hits, 9.33 power weapon wounds.

That's on the charge, of course. If they get charged, the effectiveness of bloodletters goes down slightly as they're S4, but they're still better than daemonettes by a wide margin. The Daemonettes only real advantage is fleet. With S3 and T3, they're pretty much bait, even in very large numbers. The lowest I'd consider taking would be a 15-18 man squad of Daemonettes.

2000pt Daemons

tallmantim — GMT

AgeOfEgos wrote:
tallmantim wrote:Wouldn't nurglings make excellent objective sitters?

3 wounds makes them more resilient to things like bolter fire vs plaguebearers - although blasts would be very nasty to them as swarms.

Swarms are unable to claim objectives

Ahhh

Great - thanks - hadn't realised that before.

2000pt Daemons

tallmantim — GMT

I'm not sure where you're getting your numbers. Daemonettes are only S3, so against MEQs on the charge, 12 would get 48 attacks, 24 hits, 4 rends, and 4 regular wounds that could be saved.

My appologies - completely messed up rending. I thought it was a roll of 6 to hit that was rending - obviously much less effective when it is only 6 to wound.

That's what happens when you play Eldar vs Marines mainly - not too many rending options (other than rangers).

2000pt Daemons

Obeisance — GMT

Decision made.

280 - Thirster: Might, Blessing, Instrument.
110 - HoT: Chariot, Bolt, We Are Legion, Master of Sorcery.

160 - 4 Crushers.
160 - 4 Crushers.
105 - 3 Flamers.

185 - 10 Bloodletters: Chaos Icon.
128 - 8 Bloodletters.
128 - 8 Bloodletters.
134 - 7 Horrors: The Changeling, Bolt.
129 - 7 Horrors: Bolt.

160 - Grinder: Tongue.
160 - Grinder: Tongue.
160 - Grinder: Tongue.

1999pts and 56 models.

Is what I'm building. Hoo-rah.

2000pt Daemons

Warmaster — GMT

Is that supposed to be 4 flamers or 3? Your points listed next to it says 3 . Build it and try it out. The nice thing is alot of suggestions you can do without modifying models if you choose to at a later point(ie tounge, phlegm, combining the crusher squads). Good luck and let us know how it does.

2000pt Daemons

Obeisance — GMT

Ooops! *corrects*

And thanks. I shall.

Daemons have taken my focus away from my 90% done Orks. x.x

I figured I'll have Daemons done in a month or so. As there's a 2000pt tournament in may. Means I should have enough time to get some games in before the event too.

I can't believe how retardedly expensive Soul Grinders are. I mean wtf. 85AUD.

Re:2000pt Daemons

40kenthusiast — GMT

I've got some Batreps for Khorne Daemons.

2000pt Daemons

tzeentchling — GMT

Not a bad list, and themed which is nice. For game-play purposes, I might suggest swapping the 10-man Letter unit for 10 Plaguebearers with Icon and Musician, at 180, but I understand if you want to keep it to Khorne/Tzeentch. I'd switch the instrument from the Thirster to the Crushers, though. More likely to tie, better for wound allocation shenanigans.

2000pt Daemons

Obeisance — GMT

It's not that I don't want to play with Plaguebearers, it's more about the fact I already own two blocks of 20 Bloodletters. I've already stripped them off square bases and onto round.

40kenthusiast- I've actually read/skimmed your reports on Dakka. I've looked at ALL the daemon reports on this site.

So now that the list is done, I'd really like to discuss tactics.

I think I pretty-much refuse flank. Focus my army on one side of the bored to deny his other side action.

Past that, I'm not sure.

How close do I deepstrike? etc.

Basically, I'm looking for play tips.

2000pt Daemons

AgeOfEgos — GMT

Centurian99 wrote:
Depends on what you're seeing. I've generally not found it to be an issue, even on tables with lots of impassable. If there is lots of impassable, then it may actually be advantageous to hold the 8-man squad in reserve, and place icons on the table instead.

I wrote a bit poorly. It's not JUST a flaw to overcome...it's also a potential advantage.

If you're not talking clad spam, than a Daemon player who lets an ironclad get into assault with Bloodcrushers deserves to have his 360 point unit neutered. (With full upgrades, the squad is 360, and why wouldn't you give a squad like that full upgrades for wound allocation purposes if nothing else.

Hey Centurian,

I typically don't play with Icons, so can't really discuss the strat for keeping Crushers reserve. However, that's a pretty expensive unit to keep in reserve until possible Turn 4---Which means at least 5th until assault (The game may end that turn as well!). DS is always a potential advantage, as in DSing solo princes for those far away objective squatters, etc. However, not being able to plan on the units you want at the start (33% of the time) is never an advantage.

Getting a Dread or two to support Marines is not difficult. Put him near units that are important and let the Crushers wipe out a unit (Which they will at 8 strong). Then he charges in. If you don't DS your 8 Crusher unit near units/objectives that are important...well then that isn't too terribly important for the Marine player .