Latest posts for the thread "[1000 pts Eldar] Warpspiders, Harlies and.. what troops?"

[1000 pts Eldar] Warpspiders, Harlies and.. what troops?

number9dream — GMT

I'm still up in the air as to what army I actually want to play (leaning heavily towards eldar, with KoS Orks as the other alternative), and before I go off purchasing a bunch of minis I'd prefer to have a plan for what I'm going to buy..
The list is basically a combination of what I like the idea of, as well as what I like the models of (in fact, a combination of both for the most part). I don't know how well it'd work, but within these parameters I'd prefer to have it work as well as it can... EDIT: Oh, and if possible I want to avoid lists that are 1) Mech or Bike heavy 2) Really model heavy.

So.. here it is:

HQ
Farseer /w Doom & Guide, Spirit Stones = 130 pts

Maugan Ra - 195 pts

Elites
7x Harlequin's
1x Troupe Master
1 x Death Jester
1x Shadowseer
5x Harlequin's kiss (and one for free on my Troupe Master)
2x Fusion Pistols
= 226 pts

Troops - I'm really not sure what to do for troops, my first thought was this:
5x Rangers
- Pathfinders
= 120 pts

5x Rangers
- Pathfinders
= 120 pts

Fast Attack - I love warp spiders soooooo:
9 Warp Spiders
= 198

Total: 989 pts

Farseer goes with Pathfinders, Maugan Ra goes with the Harlies for some invisible long range firepower. Which brings me to the Fusion Pistols. I'm probably a bit light on anti-tank (although I guess my warp spiders can kill some of the lighter vehicles) so I thought maybe I should get these. Worth it or is Maugan Ra and the Warp Spiders enough at 1k (wont be expanding beyond this for a while I dont think)?
If I remove one of them, I could add an exarch + additional spinner (or spinneret?) to my warp spiders..

Plan is to keep Harlies (well more the Death Jester than the rest) and Mr.Ra shooting, going into CC only when my Pathfinders are threatened. Warp Spiders would try to score rear hits on enemy armor, or just thin down hordes (well, it seems to me they'd do ok vs Ork mobs, probably not so hot vs nob bikers tho, might have issues staying away from them!).
Farseer dooms and guides stuff, but do I need fortune (and if so what do I cut to make room for it)?

However, while reading through all the threads I could find here on Dakka about Warp Spiders, about Pathfinders etc., one thing that came up was the Pathfinders' inability to effectively score enemy objectives. Soo, that has made me think perhaps I need a different second troop squad? I'd rather not do bikes (it feels like their non-scoring roles would overlap with the Warp Spiders..), and I'm not sure how much better Guardians really are at scoring distant objectives (same for DAs).
And this is really my biggest question.. If warp spiders are not the #1 choice in the Eldar codex.. well, that's ok. From the comments I've read, they seem to be at least semi-competitive at 1000 pts and below. However being completely unable to score with the Rangers would suck I don't suppose it's enough to be able to contest with my Warp Spiders? I have no issues with replacing the rangers (or one squad of them and one squad of something else), I'm just not sure with what.

Thanks for any input. Oh and I really hope I got the points right, I went over them an extra time just to be sure but I seem to have a knack for getting these wrong by a few points every time..

Re:[1000 pts Eldar] Warpspiders, Harlies and.. what troops?

RedDawn — GMT

If you are running a doom/guide farseer, your best bet (and my person favorite) is lots and lots and lots of dire avengers.

I would drop 4 of the spiders, one squad of rangers (as they are essentially immobile and can't take objectives), and maugan ra...thats 403 points. With that you can add two squads of 10 Dire Avengers with an Exarch, Bladestorm, and 2xShurCats for 304 points total and now you can take objectives. With the other 50 points you could add an exarch in your warp spider squad and throw a couple other things elsewhere.

Re:[1000 pts Eldar] Warpspiders, Harlies and.. what troops?

Lochias — GMT

Thats a lot of HQ for 1000 points. I notice right away that you've got the seer with your Pathfinders, which means that in order to use Doom at 24", you are not going to be getting the most out of the pathfinders' ability to sit well back and cause trouble.

I agree that you are more than a little light on anti-vehicle. Death Spinners have no AP, and are virtually incapable of taking out vehicles, which leaves you with just the Harlies, which would be better with 100% Harlequin's Kisses instead of the Plasma Pistols. Even so, it's hardly what I would call reliable. I'd say you could free up some points and add either a Fire Prism or a Wraithlord with a Brightlance and an EML.

Keep in mind that at full strength the Warp Spiders will average 3.3 kills per turn against MEQs (which is decent), but aren't so hot in melee. Doom wont do much good since the weapons are S6 already. 5 Pathfinders w/Guide will average 1.2 kills per turn against MEQs, which is less good. Apart from the Harlequins, you dont have any great offense on the list, and no scoring units. You arent going to table the enemy with this army, and you arent going to outscore him either.

I'd consider dropping Mr.Ra and changing out a squad of Pathfinders for guardians with an EML. Scatter Lasers are also very nice, but I think getting some mech defense should be your top priority for now.

[1000 pts Eldar] Warpspiders, Harlies and.. what troops?

number9dream — GMT

Thanks for the replies =]

Hm, did I misunderstand the rules? I thought Harlequin's could have Kisses AND fusion pistols (ie fusion pistols replace the shuriken cat, the kiss replaces their CCW)

About the farseer, I was thinking he'd sit with a more forward Pathfinder squad (since I assumed I wouldn't keep both far back), but maybe that's not feasible?

@ RedDawn, if I drop the spiders down to 5.. Won't they both run fairly easily, and suffer alot from warp-casualties? In a lot of the threads I read, I think the consensus seemed to be you needed a big squad of them.

I really like the Ra model, but I guess dropping the Farseer instead of him would be silly?

I'll make some adjustments based on what you said and post back later, thanks.
EDIT: Quick thoughts.. If I drop the Farseer, I can add a Wraithlord with EML/BL, switch out 1 unit of pathfinders for guardians with EML and.. drop 1 warp spider, add in an exarch /w dual spinners, I should end up at 999 pts if I didn't screw up anywhere.
EDIT2: Another option I considered was having an Autarch /w Jumppack ride along with my Warp Spiders, and equip him with a fusion pistol for tank hunting. Don't really love the Autarch tho >_<

And a 3rd EDIT: One last thing, the reason I went so light on anti-tank was that I didn't think I'd see that many tanks at 1k points.. So I figured Maugan Ra (since he has a power weapon right?) with the harlies fusion pistols could deal with anything too heavy for the Warp Spiders to kill via rear armor hits.. The only things I can think of that would be almost unkillable are landraiders and monoliths. Hm, I can't for the life of me find the details of Maugan Ra's executioner anywhere but I'm almost sure it's supposed to be a power weapon His entry says "see Page 23" but I've looked at that damned page 10 times now without finding anything.

As an alternative, I could switch both ranger squads for guardians (and then either keep 2 HQ or remove one HQ in favour of the proposed Wraithlord - in which case I should perhaps get a scatter laser and not an EML on the second guardian squad)? Also leaves me with enough points for either an exarch, dual spinner & withdraw OR a warlock for the second guardian squad (if I'm not mistaken).

Re:[1000 pts Eldar] Warpspiders, Harlies and.. what troops?

number9dream — GMT

So, some revisions based on what the two of you said..
#1
HQ
Farseer /w Doom & Guide, Spirit Stones = 130 pts
Elites
7x Harlequin's / 1x Troupe Master /1 x Death Jester / 1x Shadowseer / 2x Fusion Pistols / 5x Harlequin's kiss (and one for free on my Troupe Master)
= 226 pts
Troops
5x Rangers - Pathfinders
= 120 pts
10x Guardians /w EML, Warlock, Embolden, Spiritseer
= 136 pts
Fast Attack
9 Warp Spiders, Exarch /w additional spinner & withdraw
= 230
Heavy Support
Wraithlord /w flamers, BL & EML - 155
Total: 997 pts

#2
HQ
Maugan Ra - 195 pts
Elites
7x Harlequin's / 1x Troupe Master /1 x Death Jester / 1x Shadowseer / 2x Fusion Pistols / 5x Harlequin's kiss (and one for free on my Troupe Master)
= 226 pts
Troops
5x Rangers - Pathfinders
= 120 pts
10x Guardians /w EML
= 100 pts
Fast Attack
8 Warp Spiders, Exarch & withdraw
= 203
Heavy Support
Wraithlord /w flamers, BL & EML - 155
Total: 999 pts
Looking at this it seems a warlock with the spiritseer upgrade (or at least a warlock) wouldn't be amiss.. As it is, I guess he'd have to hang out near the Shadowseer?

#3
HQ
Farseer /w Doom & Guide, Spirit Stones = 130 pts
Elites
7x Harlequin's / 1x Troupe Master /1 x Death Jester / 1x Shadowseer / 2x Fusion Pistols / 5x Harlequin's kiss (and one for free on my Troupe Master)
= 226 pts
Troops
10x Guardians /w SL, Warlock, Embolden
= 125 pts
10x Guardians /w EML, Warlock, Embolden
= 130 pts
Fast Attack
9 Warp Spiders, Exarch /w additional spinner & withdraw
= 230
Heavy Support
Wraithlord /w flamers, BL & EML - 155
Total: 996 pts

I don't know if the warlocks are needed or not.

As an alternative, in all these lists I guess, it seems I could possibly ditch the pathfinders completely (or one guardian squad) for DAs (or more guardians)? Although maybe their non-scoring roles overlap with the Warp Spiders (lots of shots)..
Possible problem with dropping pathfinders: tough units (ie nob bikers, plague marines) would be harder to deal with, but then - do 5 pathfinders really make much difference there?

Ah damnit making lists is tough :(

My initial vision of how this list would work would be Harlies sitting out in the open, with Ra and the Jester firing off a combined 7 or so S6 shots a turn without getting shot back at, then as the enemy advance they'd switch roles to counter assault as they got close to the pathfinders. It would seem this would work about as well with guardians instead of pathfinders. But if I don't take Maugan Ra, the shootyness of the unit becomes much weakened, and if I do take Ra, I don't get doom or guide (or fortune, which my harlies might need?).
Warp Spiders unload -> get in cover, try to rear armor hit vehicles, take out dangerous units I can't otherwise get to.. I'm not sure if they would actually be worth it in this list, so as much as I like them I'd be open to dropping them.

Re:[1000 pts Eldar] Warpspiders, Harlies and.. what troops?

Lochias — GMT

You can take Kisses and Fusion Pistols, but the Kisses are a better bet than the Pistols. Harlies are a very strong CC unit, but only so-so at range. You're better off running to close distance and assault in (with Furious Charge) than shooting. Against tanks, take the rending Kiss attacks against rear armor rather than 2 fusion pistol shots against front or side armor.

The problem with moving Pathfinders forward is that they aren't tough, and when you get that close, they are going to get shot and assaulted. Then you lose them - fast.

There's nothing wrong with liking Mr.Ra and the Spiders, but running both at 1000 points is killing you. A Doomseer is cheap and effective, and will free up the points you need to keep your spiders. The autarch is unnecessary also.

You do generally see a bit of mech in every army at 1000 points, for precisely this reason; it's very difficult to reliably counter.

[1000 pts Eldar] Warpspiders, Harlies and.. what troops?

Phoenix — GMT

While running Maugen Ra with quins is a fun idea, I find that it's not as effective as you might think...particularly when you consider how many points it costs. If you want to run it, feel free to, just realize that it's not optimal and it hampers you more in lower point games than high point ones.

That being said, one thing that sticks out over and over in this list is your farseer. Having doom and guide on the same farseer is rarely a good idea. The only situation I can think of where it works is with dire avengers. In your plan, one squad of pathfinders is going to be guided every turn which brings your hits from an average of 3.3 up to 4.4 every turn. That doesn't sound like it's at all worth it to me. Doom will net you slightly more benefit in terms of overall damage, but it has the problem of placement. If your pathfinders are in the back field, then doom is going to be out of range most of the game. If they are farther forward, then they are in range for nasty things like flamers and assault (eventually). So, you should probably decide what you want to do. You have several options.

1) Go for guide. If you want to get the most out of guide, then you need to get rid of doom and the spirit stones and combine your pathfinders into one large squad. This will maximize the effectiveness of guide and give you a much better overall boost.
2) Go for doom. In this case, you can have your farseer mix in with the harlequin squad. He'll be safe there and in front of your army so just about everything will be in range for doom. As a side bonus, you could give him fortune as well to help out the quins.

In general, I think the doom option will serve you better since doom can be used for several of your squads at once (by all attacking the same doomed target) rather than guide which will only help one.

[1000 pts Eldar] Warpspiders, Harlies and.. what troops?

number9dream — GMT

@Lochias, Yeah, I'll just go with one of the single HQ options above (so basically deciding between #1 and #3 I guess).

About the Kiss/Fusion tho, at 3" range, they get S8 + 2D6 (being as they are melta weapons), it seems really good.. Unless I misunderstand how rending works, you can't even damage AV14 (ie a landraider) with the harlequins in assault, no?
Also, unless I'm misunderstanding the rules here too, the Fusion Pistols can be used on the same turn as you assault, so you get those in addition to your kiss melee attacks.

Anyway, 20 points of wargear is fairly minor compared to the troop selection at this point. Which seems to stand between 2x Guardians, 1x PF 1x Guardians or 1x Guardians, 1 x DA.

@Phoenix, ah that does make sense. Doom/Fortune it is then! How about the troop choice? And I think I'll probably shelve Maugan Ra until I get to 1.5k+ based on these comments.

Thanks for the comments.

[1000 pts Eldar] Warpspiders, Harlies and.. what troops?

Gavin Thorne — GMT

number9dream wrote:@Lochias, Yeah, I'll just go with one of the single HQ options above (so basically deciding between #1 and #3 I guess).

About the Kiss/Fusion tho, at 3" range, they get S8 + 2D6 (being as they are melta weapons), it seems really good.. Unless I misunderstand how rending works, you can't even damage AV14 (ie a landraider) with the harlequins in assault, no?
Also, unless I'm misunderstanding the rules here too, the Fusion Pistols can be used on the same turn as you assault, so you get those in addition to your kiss melee attacks.

Anyway, 20 points of wargear is fairly minor compared to the troop selection at this point. Which seems to stand between 2x Guardians, 1x PF 1x Guardians or 1x Guardians, 1 x DA.

@Phoenix, ah that does make sense. Doom/Fortune it is then! How about the troop choice? And I think I'll probably shelve Maugan Ra until I get to 1.5k+ based on these comments.

Thanks for the comments.

It's true that you can shoot your fusion pistols the same round that you plan to assault, but this will eliminate the additional movement you'll get from running. If you're harlies are within the 12" range, but not within 6" assault, they'll be stuck in the cold and shot down the following shooting phase. You want to get them in and hit hard, then move to the next unit.

If you field Spiders, using them against tanks isn't a bad idea, but you do have to get them to the rear armor. Also, having an exarch with a spinnerette rifle will help as well. The Wraithlord is also a good choice and the BL/EML loadout is a very effective well rounded combination.

As for troops, putting a unit of Avengers in a wave serpent is a great way to capture and hold forward objectives, run the Doomseer with them. Let the pathfinders sit on the rear plinking targets, but be mindful of deep striking units and you might want a small reserve of banshees nearby them to act as anti-assault.

[1000 pts Eldar] Warpspiders, Harlies and.. what troops?

number9dream — GMT

Alright, so based on the feedback I think I'll go with this:
HQ
Farseer /w Doom & fortune, Spirit Stones = 140 pts
Elites
7x Harlequin's / 1x Troupe Master /1 x Death Jester / 1x Shadowseer / 2x Fusion Pistols / 5x Harlequin's kiss (and one for free on my Troupe Master)
= 226 pts
Troops
5x Rangers - Pathfinders
= 120 pts
10x Guardians /w EML, Warlock
= 125 pts
Fast Attack
9 Warp Spiders, Exarch /w additional spinner & withdraw
= 230
Heavy Support
Wraithlord /w flamers, BL & EML - 155
Total: 996 pts

..or dump the warlock, add one more pathfinder - not sure how useful he is if I can't afford any powers, also not sure I even want the singing spear? I can afford it tho.
Anti heavy vehicle: BL, 2x EML, 2x Fusion Pistols
Anti light vehicle: uhm, well most of the above + the warp spiders.
Anti-tough troops - pathfinders, harlies
Anti-swarmy troops.. Warp Spiders and the flamers on the Wraithlord I suppose.

About the Harlies and assault, well, this shouldn't be a problem, as the fusion pistols only have 6" reach (the Fusion Guns have 12), so for them to be able to fire they gotta be in charge range anyway (and you kinda want to be within 3" for the extra D6 vs vehicles).

I'm still a little worried about being able to actually contest any objectives far away but at least I have some anti-mech now.

Unless there's anything more that jumps out at you (like "stop!! don't do that because...."), I'll probably go ahead and start ordering what I need. Already picked up a bunch of rangers on the cheap!

I'm slightly worried about my list looking a lot like this: http://yesthetruthhurts.blogspot.com/2009/01/eldar-at-us-gt.html
I don't suppose Stelek is the "favorite poster of all time" around here but from what I understand he's pretty good at 40k all the same. Then again, that list is 1750, so there's quite a bit of other stuff in there that isn't in mine.

Thanks for the comments!

Re:[1000 pts Eldar] Warpspiders, Harlies and.. what troops?

Gavin Thorne — GMT

..or dump the warlock, add one more pathfinder - not sure how useful he is if I can't afford any powers, also not sure I even want the singing spear? I can afford it tho.

The warlock is a point sink at the moment, only adding a 12" shot at BS4 or a bit of CC strength to the defenders. Without the points for Embolden or Conceal I'd drop him and use the points towards another Harlie or Pathfinder.

With only two troops it's going to be tough getting objectives that are further up the field. Running your Defenders is going to be the best way to do that, but then you'll not be able to fire the EML. You'll still be able to contest, though; the spiders are great for getting right on an objective as long as they're not engaged and Withdraw will keep them out of CC and mobile.

Alternately, you could do something along the lines of:

Farseer w/ Fortune, Doom, Stones 140pts
7x Harlies x1 Death Jester/x1 Shadowseer/x2 Fusion Pistols/x6 Kisses 210pts
5x Pathfinders 120pts
10x Guardian Defenders w/ EML 100pts
10x Guardian Defenders w/ EML 100pts
9x Warp Spiders w/ Exarch, Dual Spinner, Withdraw 230pts
1x Wraithlord w/ Wraithsword 100pts

I'm pretty sure that's 1000 on the nose. Have your wraithlord run behind the harlies so they screen him. He's S10 and a MC, so he can dish it out vs. vehicles. This also gives you a third troop selection that gives you a bit more mobility in taking objectives.

As an adjustment to this list, you could swap one squad of guardians defenders for storm guardians with either fusion guns or flamers, depending on what you're up against. Again, warlocks would be very helpful here with Embolden or Conceal, or even Enhance if there's sufficient cover on the field to hide them.

[1000 pts Eldar] Warpspiders, Harlies and.. what troops?

number9dream — GMT

Would it be feasible to drop the Wraithlord in lieu of a Wave Serpent (with Brightlance) + DA squad, like you suggested above (but I'm not sure if you suggested it as in addition to or instead of the wraithlord)?

Maybe having only 1 vehicle means it gets shot to gak tho..

Also considered running 2x 5 man DA in wave serpents, freeing up some points by cutting the Harlequin's to minsize (having it be range/counter/hiding place for Farseer), ditching wraithlord etc.. OR ditching the Farseer for a WSJ + Fusion Gun Autarch, with the above dual wave serpents (1 BL and one .. something)

How big of a loss would Farseer->Autarch be? Since the BL's on the serpents are twin-linked... Tough to see what the hell my harlequin's role would be in this army tho - I guess help out wherever they are needed (pathfinders vs deep strike, DAs if they get caught..). It's not a huge issue, I suppose, since my most common opponent (my brother), has about 1200~ worth of SM, so I could afford both as we'll likely play somewhere around that point level for starters

Re:[1000 pts Eldar] Warpspiders, Harlies and.. what troops?

Razerous — GMT

A farseer led harlequin squad (no death jester or troupe master - keep the points down. Although troupe master & his power weapon is the way to go. You want him for Str3+1furious charge power-weapon hits to deal with multiple MEQ's/TEQ's, not simply extra rending & LD10) 8 with all kisses & no fusions guns would be good. No fusion guns? Charging vehicles rear armor, with that many str 4 rending hits is a much better chance than 1-2 fusion pistols. Fleeting (rather than shooting) allows you to do this. And it saves quite a few points.

&

Fortune & doom, like youve moved to. The harlequins are, before they charge, simply acting as an untargetable (or difficult-to-target) buffer from which you can cast doom from. Obviously fortune for the harlequins possible 4+ cover and 5++

&

Dire avengers, wave serpent, TL-brightlances. Very good core. Lots of neat combos all round there.

That leaves you 417 points for one remaining troop choice you must buy (10xEML guardains or/and 5man pathfinder squad) and your warp spyders so;

Farseer + doom, fortune, stones
8x Harlequins +8kissies
10xDire avengers + exarch, bladestorm, dual cats, wave serpent, bright lance, spirit stones
10x guardains + EML
5xPathfinders
8x warp spyders + exarch, dual spinners. (N.b. You do not want the 'withdraw' exarch power as you can, with thier movent rules, avoid combat entirely -save the points)

Should be around 1000pts, maybe a few over -Drop one harlequin if this is the case. This list is in mind with what you originally came up with but well balanced to cover basically everything.

P.s If you do want to have Mr.Ra with some harlequins, do it at higher point games & keep the squad extremely minimal (5man team). A death jester is a must. Harlequins kisses are not.. Purely a shooting role, that is nigh-on untargetable at optimum ranges. If you do ever charge with this combo, detatch Mr.Ra first, before you charge in the movement phase,.. as he becomes fearless again & wont get destroyed to a sweeping advance - simply have to take No Retreat! wounds with a 2+ save.

[1000 pts Eldar] Warpspiders, Harlies and.. what troops?

number9dream — GMT

Thanks that seems pretty close to what I wanted =]
I'm assuming the Harlie's have a shadowseer? In which case you have to drop something like 2 harlies and a warp spider if you want the guardian squad.

For economical reasons I'll probably go without [the guardian squad] to start off (as I already have 10 warp spiders on the way hehe).

And the Death Jester might very well be my favorite model so I'll probably get one regardless

Re:[1000 pts Eldar] Warpspiders, Harlies and.. what troops?

Razerous — GMT

Yea, they do. But like I said.. your a few points over. You can have a 5-man squad with a shadowseer & have 20pts left over. Spare any 2pts and you can have 6 harlequins (all with kisses) or just dont buy the 6th harlequin the harlequins kiss upgrade.

With such a ranged list, it may well be worth concidering finding 10pts to buy the harlequin squad a death-jester. There will be times when charging in head first may not be the best thing and waiting for the enemy to come closer to you first is best. As thier they only real-assault unit this could well be the case often. Adding in the ability to put down some str6 bs 4 pinning shots is never a bad thing. A bargin for 10pts, espescailly in a difficult-to-target sqaud.
Ahh.. no guardains? With those spare 100pts you could directly invest into the harlequins. 8 warp spyders is enough, but if you want then first spend the 44 to buy an extra two. Otherwise;
10 Harlequins + Shadowseer, troupe master, power weapon, 9 kisses. (Farseer joins, due to fortune & doom + rending/bladestorm = win) = 266pts.

Before the harlequins, you come to 840, with the troops ive listed.