<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Local dice rolling study"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/7.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Local dice rolling study WC dice arrived today so I broke them out. I rolled the dice 500 times total, 50 dice per roll. Here are the results:

1 #84
2 #79
3 #99
4 #86
5 #72
6 #80

Here is the general ranking:
3 #99, 4 #86, 1 #84, 6 #80, 2 #79, 5 #72

The average is 83 as is to be expected, that is 6*83.333 equals 500.

Here is the general deviation:
1/+1, 2/-4, 3/+16, 4/+3, 5/-11, 6/-3

Here is the average deviation:
6 (average sum of the absolute value for each deviation)

G]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/621818.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/621818.page GMT Local dice rolling study
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/621941.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/621941.page GMT Local dice rolling study WC commissioned these dice in order to get an unfair advantage when they play MEQs. Rolling 3+ is obviously valuable to MEQs. I think you guys should leave these dice behind if you're playing in a competitive venue. I think the adepticon judges need to be forewarned about these dice as well.

j/k]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/621962.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/621962.page GMT Local dice rolling study
I am not saying your data is incorrect, I just find the pseudo scientific nature of this to be rather humorous.

I honestly do not care, but I cannot help but be curious and ask despite my better judgment as to why the insistence of all the threads directing attention towards the WC. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622048.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622048.page GMT Re:Local dice rolling study
He just posted a little experiment that he did with some dice. I take his results at face value.

Sure we don't know what circumstances the test was performed under. Sure he could be lying. So what.

Why do some people have to turn things into a WC bash fest every time they post something.

Sheesh. Chill out.


GG]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622054.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622054.page GMT Local dice rolling study


1: 120
2: 100
3: 90
4: 80
5: 70
6: 40]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622056.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622056.page GMT Re:Local dice rolling study
generalgrog wrote:Holy cow... can't we just give the guy a break.

He just posted a little experiment that he did with some dice. I take his results at face value.

Sure we don't know what circumstances the test was performed under. Sure he could be lying. So what.

Why do some people have to turn things into a WC bash fest every time they post something.

Sheesh. Chill out.


Perhaps you should chill out?

I was asking a perfectly valid question. Not jumping down any ones throat. I am quite sure GBF is perfectly capable of defending himself against any perceieved threats, but luckily GBF has enough of a sense of humor and really could care less what people say about him on a forum.

Yes, I think you should chill out.
Perhaps crawling out of the basement might be a good way to get rid of those reflexive projectionist grumpys you got? I hear low fat diets are a good way to get past internet depression.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622060.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622060.page GMT Local dice rolling study http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622074.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622074.page GMT Re:Local dice rolling study


GG]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622075.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622075.page GMT Local dice rolling study
The dice were rolled on a table top, 50 dice per roll for a total of 10 rolls. I used the Wrecking Crew dice since I currently have such a large amount and they are Chessex rounded dice 16 mm in size. The point of the OP is not to draw attention to WC but to show the results from a home study. I think it's only right to mention which dice were used.

There has been a lot of smack talk about how rounded dice rolls skew the results so I thought I would conduct a simple study to see what results I would get. If people are interested I have no problem rolling the dice to accumulate 1000 rolls total. I think that 5000 rolls total would be the best but that could be cumbersome.

The results for 500 rolls showed that 1s do not come up as often as cited here. It also showed that the midranged numbers tended to come up more often. I found it interesting.

G]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622240.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622240.page GMT Local dice rolling study http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622336.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622336.page GMT Local dice rolling study here more, as they rolled 144,000 times in a controlled environment tracking each die, and you rolled 500 times with a big pile of dice on a table. Considering that you use chessex, and the linked dice study used chessex, and you have conflicting results, I believe the one that was done more thoroughly.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622344.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622344.page GMT Local dice rolling study
I'll believe that GBF's study is more accurate for the dice he rolled than some study with a completely different set of dice.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622384.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622384.page GMT Local dice rolling study
Orkeosaurus wrote:Except that study was only for one block of chessex dice, right?


Afraid not. Reading the link ph34r posted actually tells you what he did.
Yade wrote:took a box of the red and white GW dice, a cube of 36 chessex dice, 36 square corner dice with pips, and 36 Vegas style square dice with no pips.

I then constructed a series of plastic barriers that would be used to keep each dice independent of the others. In the lab we have a table that is 4 inches thick solid slate built on hydraulic legs to keep balance and resist independent movement. On this table we put all of the dice in the rolling container and labelled each case, giving each individual dice its own chamber and number.

My 4 students then shook and rolled the dice 1000 times, recording each individual result.


So that means that each of the 4 students rolled 4 blocks of 36 dice 1000 times. This means that the test was conducted in a much more non biased manner than "I got 50 dice and rolled them ten times..... SCIENCE and MATHS!"

Orkeosaurus wrote:I'll believe that GBF's study is more accurate for the dice he rolled than some study with a completely different set of dice.


Sure, that makes sense...in crazy land.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622393.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622393.page GMT Re:Local dice rolling study
Second is that the number of trials is insignificant. Using the Golden Theorem 1000 rolls of (1) dice might yield a 90% accurate result (which leaves a large margin for statistical variance). I'm not interested enough to sit here and do the math, but there are more factors involved than a layperson would expect.

If you are really interested in this, read this book.

Rolling a bunch of dice a bunch of times doesn't tell you anything from a mathematical standpoint.

And none of this changes the (1) I always seem to roll when death is on the line.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622418.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622418.page GMT Re:Local dice rolling study
jabbakahut wrote:And none of this changes the (1) I always seem to roll when death is on the line.


Hmm... I think the number one is a Sicilian.
"never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line!"
Swarthy bugger will get you every time.

I like the reviews of that book. It looks like a interesting read, besides its statistical premise.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622437.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622437.page GMT Local dice rolling study
Hellfury wrote:
Orkeosaurus wrote:Except that study was only for one block of chessex dice, right?


Afraid not. Reading the link ph34r posted actually tells you what he did.
Yade wrote:took a box of the red and white GW dice, a cube of 36 chessex dice, 36 square corner dice with pips, and 36 Vegas style square dice with no pips.
That's what I meant.

He rolled other dice too, but only one block was of chessex dice.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622447.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622447.page GMT Re:Local dice rolling study Can someone let me in on the secret because I keep scratching my head when the ball busting starts]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622463.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622463.page GMT Re:Local dice rolling study
KingCracker wrote:HONESTLY why the hell does everyone bust these guys balls so much? I havnt been on dakka super long but I havnt really seen anything to say "oh god its THOSE guys again"
Can someone let me in on the secret because I keep scratching my head when the ball busting starts


My guess on that one KC would be that it is an outside of Dakka thing - tournament play within the US.

The guys on here all seem very cordial.

Perhaps in a group they're more elitist at events which rubs people the wrong way which is then brought into this world?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622528.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622528.page GMT Re:Local dice rolling study
KingCracker wrote:HONESTLY why the hell does everyone bust these guys balls so much? I havnt been on dakka super long but I havnt really seen anything to say "oh god its THOSE guys again"
Can someone let me in on the secret because I keep scratching my head when the ball busting starts
I blame their choice of media inspired avatars, it could be the only reason!

I have over 2000 imprinted d6s (roman numerals), I would use them for dice testing but I would hate to have to find a way to keep 2000+ dice separate while trying to roll that many. Besides, anyone that has cleaned up that many dice would never want to roll them again, even for science! I have had them spill twice thanks to moves. They weigh about 20 pounds altogether, cleaning them up is not a fun project, even if they fall close together. Maybe I should sell them off in lots on ebay. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622538.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622538.page GMT Re:Local dice rolling study
tallmantim wrote:
KingCracker wrote:HONESTLY why the hell does everyone bust these guys balls so much? I havnt been on dakka super long but I havnt really seen anything to say "oh god its THOSE guys again"
Can someone let me in on the secret because I keep scratching my head when the ball busting starts


My guess on that one KC would be that it is an outside of Dakka thing - tournament play within the US.

The guys on here all seem very cordial.

Perhaps in a group they're more elitist at events which rubs people the wrong way which is then brought into this world?


In person they're funny, relaxed, sometimes slightly intoxicated or hung over, and great people to hang around with. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622541.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622541.page GMT Re:Local dice rolling study
Centurian99 wrote:
tallmantim wrote:
KingCracker wrote:HONESTLY why the hell does everyone bust these guys balls so much? I havnt been on dakka super long but I havnt really seen anything to say "oh god its THOSE guys again"
Can someone let me in on the secret because I keep scratching my head when the ball busting starts


My guess on that one KC would be that it is an outside of Dakka thing - tournament play within the US.

The guys on here all seem very cordial.

Perhaps in a group they're more elitist at events which rubs people the wrong way which is then brought into this world?


In person they're funny, relaxed, sometimes slightly intoxicated or hung over, and great people to hang around with.



I'll second that, really a nice bunch of folks.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622546.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622546.page GMT Re:Local dice rolling study
Centurian99 wrote:
tallmantim wrote:
KingCracker wrote:HONESTLY why the hell does everyone bust these guys balls so much? I havnt been on dakka super long but I havnt really seen anything to say "oh god its THOSE guys again"
Can someone let me in on the secret because I keep scratching my head when the ball busting starts


My guess on that one KC would be that it is an outside of Dakka thing - tournament play within the US.

The guys on here all seem very cordial.

Perhaps in a group they're more elitist at events which rubs people the wrong way which is then brought into this world?


In person they're funny, relaxed, sometimes slightly intoxicated or hung over, and great people to hang around with.


LOL - perhaps it's just because they do well at tournaments then?

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622558.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622558.page GMT Local dice rolling study custom made dice I walk. That simple.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622565.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622565.page GMT Local dice rolling study
H.B.M.C. wrote:Don't care if they're great guys, how trustworthy they are or even if they're married to my sister (NB: I don't have a sister) if you show up to a tourney with your own custom made dice I walk. That simple.


Thats why I go with basic dice, I was tired for explaining the 400th time my Necro dice and wanted to just play the game.

slightly off topic: does custom dice annoy people more than the dice that are too shiny to see the pips? I hate when someone brings the clear speckled dice with white pips and you spend 10 seconds wondering if you rolled a 1 or a 5. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622567.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622567.page GMT Local dice rolling study http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622579.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622579.page GMT Local dice rolling study
G]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622590.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622590.page GMT Re:Local dice rolling study 1)ugly,
2)badly weighted
3)hard to read.
I tend not to use them for any games at all and keep them
seperate to stop their various diseases spreading to my other dice.
I picked these up a week ago from a French craft fair.
I trust you will all agree my newest dice are 1,2 and 3.
I'm very happy with them!

(Also don't ever shake two or more glass dice in one hand at the same time! I used to have three of them!)
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622612.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622612.page GMT Local dice rolling study really that badly skewed, then GBF and others who have recorded what their own dice roll would be getting similar ratios.

As an interesting aside, when I rolled my little chessex dice (10 mm?) 1000 times, I got a fairly large sample size of 3s as well (close to 19%), but low 4s.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622700.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622700.page GMT Local dice rolling study http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622704.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622704.page GMT Local dice rolling study http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622723.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622723.page GMT Re:Local dice rolling study
Longer answer:It has a ball bearing in it that eventually stops it from rolling off the table.
A discussion/fight then insues about which set of dots are more visible from above.

This is why it is one of my favourites! ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622726.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622726.page GMT Re:Local dice rolling study http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622731.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622731.page GMT Local dice rolling study
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622742.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622742.page GMT Local dice rolling study all he wanted to do was test the dice and see what sort of rolls they average, nothing wrong with that atall.

Custom dice: i would be fine with most dice, however, that sphere die does look a tad fethed up, so i think i would give those a miss.
im guessing its just a sphere case with a small ball weight inside it.


i need some dakka dice
cassino dice are great to use, but you need to buy them rather than get thrown out ones.
(in the UK, grosvenors cassino sells new ones behind the counter for a decent price)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622763.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622763.page GMT Local dice rolling study
JD21290 wrote:just a note here, if anyone wanted a reason to take the piss out of GBF, i would have gone for it allready, but all i see is a dice test, nothing that should have people up in arms.
all he wanted to do was test the dice and see what sort of rolls they average, nothing wrong with that atall.

Custom dice: i would be fine with most dice, however, that sphere die does look a tad fethed up, so i think i would give those a miss.
im guessing its just a sphere case with a small ball weight inside it.


i need some dakka dice
cassino dice are great to use, but you need to buy them rather than get thrown out ones.
(in the UK, grosvenors cassino sells new ones behind the counter for a decent price)


speaking of casino dice, mine's arrived from amazon. Though its quite expensive for serialized casino dice.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622775.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622775.page GMT Local dice rolling study you get what you pay for with them.


as for the GW dice, i hate the bloody things, used to use them alot, but just went off them and now have a box with 200+ just collecting dust.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622778.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622778.page GMT Local dice rolling study
JD21290 wrote: that sphere die does look a tad fethed up, so i think i would give those a miss.


Thankyou for the compliment. That is exactly the response I hope for from this collection. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622791.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622791.page GMT Local dice rolling study
JD21290 wrote:i need some dakka dice


Become a DCM! Buy some dice!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622793.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622793.page GMT Local dice rolling study
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622795.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622795.page GMT Local dice rolling study
Iorek wrote:
JD21290 wrote:i need some dakka dice


Become a DCM! Buy some dice!

Where do you get Dakka dice?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622805.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622805.page GMT Local dice rolling study
Thankyou for the compliment. That is exactly the response I hope for from this collection.


would save the problem of crooked dice i guess



iorek, im thinking about it mate
just trying to get my bank account sorted 1st.
using my GF's to have my money paid into (military should pay cash in hand )
one thats all sorted out and overdraft is cleared i may just aswell do it

just a note, how many do you get and is it possible to buy more?
orks with 120 attacks on the charge need more dakka!


a friend of mine plays with a dice pad.
small 2 inch screen, you select how many dice to roll and its shows the results ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622806.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622806.page GMT Local dice rolling study
willydstyle wrote:
As I've posted before: the results of Yade's "study" are absurd. That's why you should roll your own dice, and record the results. If chessex dice were really that badly skewed, then GBF and others who have recorded what their own dice roll would be getting similar ratios.


Actually, this is untrue.

GBF is not rolling standard chessex dice (10mm). He's rolling 16mm dice with an image imprinted on one side.

This changes two variables in the equation, and it is entirely not surprising that he got different results rolling these compared with rolling the 10mm dice.

The first changed variable is total weight. Assuming the dice are made of the same material, a 16mm die weighs four times as much as a 10mm die. (Exercise left to the reader). That means that it's going to take more energy to rotate the larger die, and if the force rolling the dice is constant, the larger die will roll around less. One of the reasons stated for the issues with 10mm dice is that the more the die rolls around, the more impact weight distribution has on the final result of the roll.

The second variable is the printed symbol. The other primary cause of 'bad rolling' is attributed to improper die balancing, created by drilling out the pips on the dice. If each pip is of equal depth, then the side with the six is lightest, as it has the most material removed from it. But, on dice with a symbol printed in place of a six, now the 'six' has the least material removed from it (none), and the difference between the 5 and the 2 is the greatest. This is bound to change the dynamics of how the die rolls.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622810.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622810.page GMT Local dice rolling study
Redbeard wrote:
willydstyle wrote:
As I've posted before: the results of Yade's "study" are absurd. That's why you should roll your own dice, and record the results. If chessex dice were really that badly skewed, then GBF and others who have recorded what their own dice roll would be getting similar ratios.


Actually, this is untrue.

GBF is not rolling standard chessex dice (10mm). He's rolling 16mm dice with an image imprinted on one side.

This changes two variables in the equation, and it is entirely not surprising that he got different results rolling these compared with rolling the 10mm dice.

The first changed variable is total weight. Assuming the dice are made of the same material, a 16mm die weighs four times as much as a 10mm die. (Exercise left to the reader). That means that it's going to take more energy to rotate the larger die, and if the force rolling the dice is constant, the larger die will roll around less. One of the reasons stated for the issues with 10mm dice is that the more the die rolls around, the more impact weight distribution has on the final result of the roll.

The second variable is the printed symbol. The other primary cause of 'bad rolling' is attributed to improper die balancing, created by drilling out the pips on the dice. If each pip is of equal depth, then the side with the six is lightest, as it has the most material removed from it. But, on dice with a symbol printed in place of a six, now the 'six' has the least material removed from it (none), and the difference between the 5 and the 2 is the greatest. This is bound to change the dynamics of how the die rolls.


Really, because I just read that article, and the "conclusion" is that it's the rounded corners that make the dice roll "bad." I also find it's very, very funny that at the end of the article there's a link to a website that sells very-expensive precision casino dice. I just think it's ridiculous when people reference Yade's article, because it's such obvious hogwash.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622813.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622813.page GMT Local dice rolling study
G]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622830.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622830.page GMT Local dice rolling study http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622842.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622842.page GMT Local dice rolling study
Last year at Adepticon's team tourney, a team gave us some of their custom dice (F'N), and they had the F'N logo where the 1 should be. They rolled so many F'N or 1's I tossed them out. I guess they would be good for rolling moral checks, but still got tossed anyway.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622856.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622856.page GMT Local dice rolling study
chaplaingrabthar wrote:Does anyone have enough regular (ie. no custom symbols) chessex dice to repeat this rolling 'experiment'? I'm curious if etching the pattern skews the numbers in any way.


It won't be a correct study unless Blow Fly does it. In fact his whole 'Scientific study' lacks quite a bit.. A theory, study and conclusion.. all I see here is results and with out all the rest, it's just information with no air..]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622858.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622858.page GMT Local dice rolling study
G]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622939.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622939.page GMT Re:Local dice rolling study WC dice and be done with it. ;-)

GG]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622946.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622946.page GMT Local dice rolling study
G]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622957.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622957.page GMT Local dice rolling study
willydstyle wrote:I just think it's ridiculous when people reference Yade's article, because it's such obvious hogwash.


Actually, what ridiculous is calling it hogwash along with the other snide and defamatory ways you speak of the study, and yet you will not replicate the study to contradict its findings.

Now THAT is hogwash.

Just like before, replicate the study or your assertion is full of BS.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622959.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622959.page GMT Local dice rolling study

Green Blow Fly wrote:Well HBMC a lot of Dakkites have their Dakka dices so I think you are SOOL if you ever decide to make a trip over for Adepticon.


Difference being is that the people who bring the Dakka D6's didn't make them themselves.

I have a set of dice I use for BattleTech games - they are Clan Jade Falcon dice where the 6's are replaced with the Jade Falcon symbol. They are an official Wizkidz product I bought myself. You made your own dice, and as I said, it doesn't matter if you're the single greatest guy on earth, you are still bringing custom dice that you had made for yourself to a tournament. Will not play against that.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622968.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622968.page GMT Re:Local dice rolling study HF

While I agree with you that saying Yades article is hogwash is....well hogwash. :-)

The problem is even if wildstyle recreated the study...people would then start calling his study hogwash.



GBF..put me down for 1000 bricks, I'm going to buy a horse and cart, don a top hat, and travel from game store to game store selling the "Magic WC dice".

by the way why does you flag keep changing from Union Jack to Old Glory?


GG]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622969.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622969.page GMT Local dice rolling study
H.B.M.C. wrote:That spherical dice is awesome!

Green Blow Fly wrote:Well HBMC a lot of Dakkites have their Dakka dices so I think you are SOOL if you ever decide to make a trip over for Adepticon.


Difference being is that the people who bring the Dakka D6's didn't make them themselves.

I have a set of dice I use for BattleTech games - they are Clan Jade Falcon dice where the 6's are replaced with the Jade Falcon symbol. They are an official Wizkidz product I bought myself. You made your own dice, and as I said, it doesn't matter if you're the single greatest guy on earth, you are still bringing custom dice that you had made for yourself to a tournament. Will not play against that.


Why do I get the picture of GBF in a doctors scrub, with a vat of melted plastic in his basment, full of levers and lighting generators and All the WC thralls running around chanting incantations while GBF hollers at the top of his voice. "WE HOLD THE POWER TO MAKE OUR OWN DICE...THE WRECKING CREW SHALL RULE THE WORLD!!!!! BWAHAHAHAHAHAH"

Come on they didn't make their own dice, they had chessex make them some custom dice, which I believe anyone can do.

GG]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622974.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622974.page GMT Local dice rolling study
Hellfury wrote:
willydstyle wrote:I just think it's ridiculous when people reference Yade's article, because it's such obvious hogwash.


Actually, what ridiculous is calling it hogwash along with the other snide and defamatory ways you speak of the study, and yet you will not replicate the study to contradict its findings.

Now THAT is hogwash.

Just like before, replicate the study or your assertion is full of BS.


Ok, lets assume that the study actually happened, and is not just a sales pitch.

All it "proves" is that under those specific conditions you get 29% 1s on chessex style dice.

So if you do your own "research" and roll your dice a decent number of times under more normal conditions, then those results are closer to what you should expect out of your dice.

Did you ever think that he may have posted such convoluted tests in order to write an experiment that is not easily replicable by your average gamer... and thus sell more of the dice that you'll find under that handy link? Having such absolute blind faith in something that someone wrote on the internet is pretty ridiculous. Roll your own dice and record the results.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622978.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622978.page GMT Local dice rolling study
Tournaments could easily hand dice out for players to use. The obvious problem is people keeping them afterwards which would cost the organisers money. But there are two ways in which this could be tackled, you could either ask for a deposit on the dice block or get a dice manufacturer to sponsor the event and allow the players to keep the dice.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622981.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622981.page GMT Local dice rolling study
H.B.M.C. wrote:That spherical dice is awesome!

Green Blow Fly wrote:Well HBMC a lot of Dakkites have their Dakka dices so I think you are SOOL if you ever decide to make a trip over for Adepticon.


Difference being is that the people who bring the Dakka D6's didn't make them themselves.

I have a set of dice I use for BattleTech games - they are Clan Jade Falcon dice where the 6's are replaced with the Jade Falcon symbol. They are an official Wizkidz product I bought myself. You made your own dice, and as I said, it doesn't matter if you're the single greatest guy on earth, you are still bringing custom dice that you had made for yourself to a tournament. Will not play against that.


I ordered the dice from Chessex.

Poast.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622987.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/622987.page GMT Local dice rolling study
willydstyle wrote:Ok, lets assume that the study actually happened, and is not just a sales pitch.

All it "proves" is that under those specific conditions you get 29% 1s on chessex style dice.


The way you're phrasing this implies that you believe a) that Yade never did the experiment, and 2) or b) that he posted the article as a sales pitch to sell Casino dice, presumably because of some kind of agenda. The first item is possible, though cynical in the extreme, the second is ludicrous.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623081.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623081.page GMT Local dice rolling study http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623096.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623096.page GMT Local dice rolling study


G]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623109.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623109.page GMT Local dice rolling study
Agamemnon2 wrote:
willydstyle wrote:Ok, lets assume that the study actually happened, and is not just a sales pitch.

All it "proves" is that under those specific conditions you get 29% 1s on chessex style dice.


The way you're phrasing this implies that you believe a) that Yade never did the experiment, and 2) or b) that he posted the article as a sales pitch to sell Casino dice, presumably because of some kind of agenda. The first item is possible, though cynical in the extreme, the second is ludicrous.


Then why post a link to a specific website at the end of the article? Why not just say "casino dice roll closest to statistical mean." And yes, I implied both of those things, the "agenda" is to make money.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623139.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623139.page GMT Re:Local dice rolling study
http://www.geocities.com/dicephysics/

I think the authors of this study are also fooling themselves if they think they are the first to discover this. Casinos don't use perfectly sized and weighted dice for no reason, and they have been doing it long before either of these studies.

Edit: sorry this link is more specific:

http://www.geocities.com/dicephysics/0107.htm
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623146.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623146.page GMT Local dice rolling study
willydstyle wrote:
Agamemnon2 wrote:
willydstyle wrote:Ok, lets assume that the study actually happened, and is not just a sales pitch.

All it "proves" is that under those specific conditions you get 29% 1s on chessex style dice.


The way you're phrasing this implies that you believe a) that Yade never did the experiment, and 2) or b) that he posted the article as a sales pitch to sell Casino dice, presumably because of some kind of agenda. The first item is possible, though cynical in the extreme, the second is ludicrous.


Then why post a link to a specific website at the end of the article? Why not just say "casino dice roll closest to statistical mean." And yes, I implied both of those things, the "agenda" is to make money.


well the website to me is irrelevant, since i already knew where to get them that time. And its quite hard to find casino dice online.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623149.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623149.page GMT Re:Local dice rolling study
things that make you go hmmmm......

GG]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623174.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623174.page GMT Re:Local dice rolling study
temprus wrote:
KingCracker wrote:HONESTLY why the hell does everyone bust these guys balls so much? I havnt been on dakka super long but I havnt really seen anything to say "oh god its THOSE guys again"
Can someone let me in on the secret because I keep scratching my head when the ball busting starts
I blame their choice of media inspired avatars, it could be the only reason!

I have over 2000 imprinted d6s (roman numerals), I would use them for dice testing but I would hate to have to find a way to keep 2000+ dice separate while trying to roll that many. Besides, anyone that has cleaned up that many dice would never want to roll them again, even for science! I have had them spill twice thanks to moves. They weigh about 20 pounds altogether, cleaning them up is not a fun project, even if they fall close together. Maybe I should sell them off in lots on ebay.


Maybe you SHOULD... and maybe you should PM the links to me when you do.
I have 2 dozen and wouldn't mind adding a couple more, if they were the same kind.


Eric]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623180.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623180.page GMT Local dice rolling study
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623191.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623191.page GMT Local dice rolling study
The yade study was posted on warseer originally with no link to casino dice.

The link to casino dice as far as I can tell is only in the legoburner article on dakka - legoburner is not yade as far as I know. In the original warseer thread, Vegas dice come up, and the first response about it from Yade is:

"Are the pipless Vegas dice readily available?"

"Not really, the ones from Vegas are scarred after being used. I bought my current dice while I was in London. I know you can find them on eBay occasionally, and some gambling supplies stores sell them.

They are not cheap, that's for sure. "

Kind of slow on the draw if he's actually trying to sell them himself.

As for conclusion, willydstyle, re-read it - first they try filling in the corners, and find they still roll more 1s. Then they decide that it is because of the pips causing a weighting issue.

The original warseer post:
http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65531

Anyway, as for now we have maybe one scientific study, and a bunch of people rolling 500 or 1000 dice in a les controlled environment which is not nearly enough.

I have overheard people theorizing that dakka dice roll more 6's for the same reason that the regular chessex dice roll more 1's. This, to me, is completely ridiculous, but if you're going to use custom dice of any kind you shouldn't be surprised if people grumble. To me, it should be obvious that you should expect *something* to be wrong with pretty much any non-precision die. As for what it is going to do, I have no idea - too many 3's seems more than possible.

I always thought that the thing that hurt the acceptance of the yade study was that they rolled more 1's - the worst possible result. No one really cares if their opponents dice roll too many 1's, so long as they use the same dice for everything. If they rolled more 5's or 6's people would have gone apeshit because now the dice are helping in 90% of the dice rolls in the game. But it's sewn the seed of the idea that different, custom dice could roll something other than 1's too many times.



]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623202.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623202.page GMT Local dice rolling study
G]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623218.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623218.page GMT Local dice rolling study ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623227.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623227.page GMT Local dice rolling study
It's just a bloody game. Relax, you'll enjoy it more.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623234.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623234.page GMT Local dice rolling study
lambadomy wrote:This is why my dice are filled with water, to maximize the effect.


Mercury is denser.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623252.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623252.page GMT Local dice rolling study
willydstyle wrote:As I've posted before: the results of Yade's "study" are absurd. That's why you should roll your own dice, and record the results. If chessex dice were really that badly skewed, then GBF and others who have recorded what their own dice roll would be getting similar ratios.

As an interesting aside, when I rolled my little chessex dice (10 mm?) 1000 times, I got a fairly large sample size of 3s as well (close to 19%), but low 4s.


Why exactly is Yade's study absurd? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623263.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623263.page GMT Local dice rolling study
Hellfury wrote:
willydstyle wrote:I just think it's ridiculous when people reference Yade's article, because it's such obvious hogwash.


Actually, what ridiculous is calling it hogwash along with the other snide and defamatory ways you speak of the study, and yet you will not replicate the study to contradict its findings.

Now THAT is hogwash.

Just like before, replicate the study or your assertion is full of BS.


Agamemnon2 wrote:
willydstyle wrote:Ok, lets assume that the study actually happened, and is not just a sales pitch.

All it "proves" is that under those specific conditions you get 29% 1s on chessex style dice.


The way you're phrasing this implies that you believe a) that Yade never did the experiment, and 2) or b) that he posted the article as a sales pitch to sell Casino dice, presumably because of some kind of agenda. The first item is possible, though cynical in the extreme, the second is ludicrous.


Redbeard wrote:It seems to me that the original study was done in a methodical, scientific manner. I have no reason to doubt its findings. The causes for the differences make a lot of sense when you think about it. Given that Yade isn't selling dice of his own, I see very little reason to believe that he's doing it with self-interest in mind.


Reading these quotes gives me new and sad insight into how pseudoscience gains traction in people's minds.

First, Hellfury, you have a remarkable misapprehension of how scientific proof works: since one cannot prove a negative (literally the only way we could prove his results didn't occur would be to have access to video documentation showing it), the onus is on the supporters of extraordinary claims to prove them, not the other way around. Make no mistake, the proffered claims are extraordinary: basically that the dice in question are loaded, possibly the most effectively loaded dice I have ever heard of. He claims that the dice range from roughly 1/2-1/3 1's when "rolled"; half-again to almost twice the expected result.

Second, as to the general merits of the "study", I won't flatly declare that it doesn't pass the smell test scientifically, but there is an odor about it. Since the logical response to that statement is "what smells" I will elaborate;

-The "study author" claims to be a teacher at "ASU", who uses his position for access to both student labor and "a giant mechanical engineering lab" in order to conduct this "experiment". While we all have no doubt heard of professors abusing their discretion over their students, the prospect that engineering faculty/students have so much free time that no one would notice or complain about spending dozens or hundreds of man-hours on a pet project or that there were no others interested in using (or concerned about wear to) the expensive equipment ("hydrogen cooled diamond saw"?) should increase, rather then decease, skepticism.

-"I contacted the casino Caesar's Palace in Las Vegas and accessed their research, after much duress because they wanted to make sure I was not some gambling shark, and they had results that corroborated mine." Whoa now! "Much duress"? If Caesar's is actually concerned about this issue (and no reason why they wouldn't be) the only reasonable assurance they would accept is a signed non-disclosure agreement not to share the results of their studies. The author claims to be a faculty member at "ASU"; the reasonable course of action would be for Caesar's to go through the University's office of legal affairs, as they have attorneys who specialize in research NDAs.

-When the author refers to the data from Caesar's, he mentions "[t]here is definitely a correlation to the way that the dice are thrown"; you, readers that believe the posted study to be "done in a methodical, scientific manner", realize that this admission severely weakens any conclusions that could be drawn from the study, stipulating it was actually done as stated? "[T]he data from Caesar's Palace proved that the dice were more likely to flip once than anything else", yet the author "put all of the dice in the rolling container and labeled each case, giving each individual dice its own chamber and number"; this means that there are any number of possible confounding factors present here. The amount of space in the cells, the material of the cells, the manner in which they are rolled, etc, etc.

-The last point I'll mention, but by no means the last point of concern: the author in question would like us to believe that he consumed many man-hours, used materials and sensitive laboratory equipment, conducted statistical analysis and entered into legally binding agreements... so he could post his results anonymously on an internet forum?

Above and beyond the fact you should greet any anonymously given information with skepticism, a researcher would have no reason to do this. He could easily post this study (and actually include the relevant details that are missing) on his faculty web page. That would instantly dispel virtually all of the most prima facia doubts. "But he doesn't want the school to know what he was doing!" One might object. Frankly, the desire to conceal having engaged in such an arguable misuse of men and materials is understandable, but it doesn't make the author any more trustworthy. The obligation of propriety towards students and employer trumps by orders of magnitude the obligation to be truthful when posting anonymous, potentially defamatory statements the internet. I don't mention student's idly; if a student contributes to a research endeavor, academic propriety dictates that they receive some measure of recognition for this, both because they are inherently entitled to it, so that they can cite it on their CVs and so they can avoid potential conflicts of interest. Further, as I mentioned above, the most reasonable course of action to obtain information from Caesar's would involve the office of legal counsel, making his work scarcely a secret. (If the claim is made that he circumvented the university lawyers, it again is scarcely a point towards credibility.)

By the by Hellfury, you are exactly backwards with your accusation of "defamatory ways you speak of the study"; criticism of a study does not constitute defamation. Ironically, however, you seem to miss the fact that the article itself constitutes defamation; the article author states that that he has an official admission that Chessex willfully manufactures a defective product; the results of his study mean their product arguably qualifies under certain state laws as "altered gambling equipment", making their sale or manufacture potentially a criminal matter.

Personally, I pay no attention to the study; those that do take it seriously, take an afternoon, take careful notes, and do some rolling with your own dice on your own playing surface. Worst comes to worst, you accumulate a data point that reinforces your own point. It's scarcely the end of the matter, but it can help you to evaluate whether you've been listening to a Charles Darwin, or an Andrew Wakefield.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623284.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623284.page GMT Local dice rolling study http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623301.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623301.page GMT Local dice rolling study http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623313.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623313.page GMT Re:Local dice rolling study
asmith wrote:I don't have any reason to doubt Yade's results, they are neither new or unexpected. Here is another earlier study which is more comprehensive in my opinion, in which the degree of variation from a cube can be used to predict the variation of the results.

http://www.geocities.com/dicephysics/

I think the authors of this study are also fooling themselves if they think they are the first to discover this. Casinos don't use perfectly sized and weighted dice for no reason, and they have been doing it long before either of these studies.
s
Edit: sorry this link is more specific:

http://www.geocities.com/dicephysics/0107.htm


While you somewhat misunderstand the study you quote (the "Non-cubic dice" referenced in the study are not the shaved corner dice we were speaking about, but dice where one of the LxHxW dimensions is not equal to the others, i.e., a die that is 10mm x 10mm x 9.5mm), you have absolutely demolished the "Yade article".

Let us be clear, the study "Yade" claims to have conducted generated results directly applicable to the concussion of the Sturm poster (the link asmith posted second); that means that they are results applicable to a valid and discussed scientific question. To post a study with such results anonymously and without attribution on an internet forum rather then to a peer reviewed journal or on his faculty web-page, constitutes a serious breach of academic ethics, not least of which is the deprivation of citation for the students who worked on it. Further, it completely discredits any explanation as to why the study is not posted on an official page. This is a valid field of inquiry worthy of presentation at scientific symposia; it would not simply be relegated to the bowels of Warseer.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623320.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623320.page GMT Local dice rolling study
G]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623329.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623329.page GMT Local dice rolling study
Green Blow Fly wrote:The higher rate of 1s theory has finally been put to rest.

G


Not really... considering I stopped using the leetle chessex dice years ago before ever reading the Yade "study". I.E. had allready determined they sucked.


GG]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623359.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623359.page GMT Local dice rolling study
H.B.M.C. wrote:Don't care if they're great guys, how trustworthy they are or even if they're married to my sister (NB: I don't have a sister) if you show up to a tourney with your own custom made dice I walk. That simple.


What about DakkaDakka dice?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623417.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623417.page GMT Local dice rolling study

G]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623444.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623444.page GMT Local dice rolling study http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623458.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623458.page GMT Local dice rolling study
Buzzsaw wrote:
-The "study author" claims to be a teacher at "ASU", who uses his position for access to both student labor and "a giant mechanical engineering lab" in order to conduct this "experiment". While we all have no doubt heard of professors abusing their discretion over their students, the prospect that engineering faculty/students have so much free time that no one would notice or complain about spending dozens or hundreds of man-hours on a pet project or that there were no others interested in using (or concerned about wear to) the expensive equipment ("hydrogen cooled diamond saw"?) should increase, rather then decease, skepticism.


Have you spent any time at a university? I was an instructor at IIT from 1995-97. If I wanted, I could have used any of their labs during off-hours for cutting dice in half or whatever. My father is a professor of mechanical and metallurgical engineering. He has access to one of those multi-thousand dollar rapid prototyping machines that you might have heard of. He's used it to make random parts for his model airplanes, among other things. Free time and equipment are one of the main reasons to work in academia - it certainly isn't for the pay.


-The last point I'll mention, but by no means the last point of concern: the author in question would like us to believe that he consumed many man-hours, used materials and sensitive laboratory equipment, conducted statistical analysis and entered into legally binding agreements... so he could post his results anonymously on an internet forum?


Just because an experiment wasn't done to the exacting standards of a scientific journal doesn't mean that it wasn't done. I find your counter-claims here spurious at best, and based on incorrect assumptions and large logical leaps drawn from them. This isn't his primary field of research, it's something he undertook out of curiosity. I've done similar things. Get curious, do a few tests, answer your own question, move on. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623466.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623466.page GMT Re:Local dice rolling study
I think you are severly misguided in saying that the Yade work is worthy of being in a scientific symposia, and I also think there are many factors that can keep the results of his study from being directly applicable to normal use. This doesn't mean that he didn't do the work or that he didn't get the results he did. Frankly there is no basis for even thinking that.

He presented his results, you are the one who doesn't believe him and believe strongly so, so do another study to prove him wrong.

There is no null hypothesis that chessex dice should come up all numbers equally, this is a belief that you hold despite having no evidence to support it.

Other than that I agree with Redbeard, college is one of the few places in life where man hours are virtually free. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623503.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623503.page GMT Local dice rolling study
He could have rolled them a billion trillion times, with NASA scientists standing by, and it would still only be the results of one dice block.

(Once again, regarding the chessex dice.)


]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623524.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623524.page GMT Local dice rolling study
G]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623535.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623535.page GMT Local dice rolling study
Therefore I suggest that the often mocked practice of rolling dice and picking the high rollers has a scientific basis ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623553.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623553.page GMT Local dice rolling study Gw to include a cube of dice in every tournament registration fee. Everyone uses the dice provided, no on can bitch or moan about cheaters and dice tricksters because all the dice will come from the same source and Gw will get a small profit from selling dozens of dice cubes..

Of course, Gw would just do well and give them to every entrant, but meh, that's just too easy.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623585.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623585.page GMT Re:Local dice rolling study
asmith wrote:@ buzzsaw: I'm not misunderstanding anything about the link I posted.


Other then the fact you seem to believe they are referring to rounded corner dice are the same as "non-cubic dice"... well, since that's the only really relevant factor, I'm not sure you understand anything about the links you posted then.

asmith wrote:I think you are severly misguided in saying that the Yade work is worthy of being in a scientific symposia, and I also think there are many factors that can keep the results of his study from being directly applicable to normal use. This doesn't mean that he didn't do the work or that he didn't get the results he did. Frankly there is no basis for even thinking that.


There is no basis for even thinking that? You mean, other then the Sturm poster presented at a symposium in 2001? Are you really contending that in the intervening 6 years the issue went from worthy of public discussion to so settled that experiments consuming 5 people's time are not worth even a cursory mention on a faculty web page? By the by, I realize you're probably not a native English speaker, but the phrase "a peer reviewed journal or on his faculty web-page," means "to a peer reviewed journal" but in the alternative, which is to say, instead of, "on his faculty web-page". This is a particularly odd misapprehension given that you're linking to the web page of an associate professor who is posting his own, non-peer reviewed, work. Seriously, did you not notice that the first link on Professor Murray's page (the first one you linked) is a description of Murray's "dice rolling machine"?

One of my points is that at the very least "Yade" could have posted his results on his own web page, exactly the way professor Murray does on the page you link.

asmith wrote:He presented his results, you are the one who doesn't believe him and believe strongly so, so do another study to prove him wrong.

There is no null hypothesis that chessex dice should come up all numbers equally, this is a belief that you hold despite having no evidence to support it.


What an oddly formulated statement: perhaps I should reformulate it for you?

-You (asmith) believe an anonymous post on an internet forum reporting that a major die manufacturer is producing a defective product, one which you use on a regular basis. Further, despite being the product of methodological testing by no less then 5 people, and concerning an area of interest demonstrably important to the community at large, you believe this endeavor would not be reported (as the Sturm paper was) on a faculty page but rather on... Warseer.

-... You know, I was going to go on listing the silly things that are wrong with the article that should arouse suspicion, but it's just easier to point out that if you are willing to swallow the first point, your credulity is so great anything further is really just a waste of my time.

asmith wrote:Other than that I agree with Redbeard, college is one of the few places in life where man hours are virtually free.


Uh huh... I think this may be more of an indictment of your (and his) institution of higher education then a generally applicable fact, but I'll stipulate it (that is, I will cease to argue the point and accept it as true, as accepting it fails to impact on the argument as a whole, i.e. it doesn't matter).

There are two possibilities regarding the Yade "study";

1) He more or less made it up, or

2) He more or less did as he described: he involved 4 subordinate students in this project, used lab materials and equipment, analyzed data, manufactured dice, he contacted Chessex and obtained a statement that their product is known to be defective*, he contacted the Caesar's Palace casino, engaging in sufficient negotiation and provided sufficient assurances that they revealed sensitive proprietary information to him**, and then he posted the results anonymously on a web forum, depriving both his students and himself of a publication citation.

I dunno 'bout you, but Mister Occam and his razor are poking me in one direction...

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof"; the allegation that Chessex is selling "loaded dice" (and there can be no other way of interpreting his statement that the dice are massively prejudiced to certain outcomes) requires a degree of proof that an anonymous post cannot hope to meet. This also goes for the claim that they admit to it freely.

Just to clarify things, I'm not "angry" with Yade, I just don't feel what we're looking at meets the standard of proof. Heck, it's entirely possible that it's all true. I'm not angry with the folks who are too credulous either, they are how they are. At this point there is plenty of evidence in this, the Dakka article and the original Warseer posting to support a prima facia case of defamation and commercial damage, if Chessex cares about this they'll let Dakka and Warseer know either through their PR department or their lawyers. If they don't care, well, I guess I shouldn't either.

* and ** are more distinctly described in my first post.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623764.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623764.page GMT Local dice rolling study
http://www.geocities.com/dicephysics/3sided.htm
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623812.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623812.page GMT Local dice rolling study
Mercury is denser.


krazy, if your looking for a dense material i hear warseer users are great ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623824.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623824.page GMT Local dice rolling study
http://74.125.77.132/search?q=cache:vQ8TbcWcNyIJ:www.geocities.com/dicephysics/Recuenco-Munoz_Presentation.pdf+dice+experiment+Okanagan&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&client=safari
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623826.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/623826.page GMT Local dice rolling study
Perhaps crawling out of the basement


Says the guy with 10000+ posts....]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/624423.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/624423.page GMT Local dice rolling study http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/624468.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/624468.page GMT Local dice rolling study
generalgrog wrote:... they had chessex make them some custom dice


Ok, fine. Point conceeded.

But were I member of the Wrecking Crew, I'd ensure that everyone knew that before they started playing.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/624552.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/624552.page GMT Local dice rolling study
willydstyle wrote:
Really, because I just read that article, and the "conclusion" is that it's the rounded corners that make the dice roll "bad." I also find it's very, very funny that at the end of the article there's a link to a website that sells very-expensive precision casino dice. I just think it's ridiculous when people reference Yade's article, because it's such obvious hogwash.


Green Blow Fly wrote:It is total hogwash.

G


The original article did not have a link to dice. The link was added in the dakka article. Your thoughts of some conspiracy to sell casino dice are ridiculous.
EDIT: after re-reading the third page I see that this was said already.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/624564.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/624564.page GMT Local dice rolling study
ph34r wrote:
willydstyle wrote:
Really, because I just read that article, and the "conclusion" is that it's the rounded corners that make the dice roll "bad." I also find it's very, very funny that at the end of the article there's a link to a website that sells very-expensive precision casino dice. I just think it's ridiculous when people reference Yade's article, because it's such obvious hogwash.


Green Blow Fly wrote:It is total hogwash.

G


The original article did not have a link to dice. The link was added in the dakka article. Your thoughts of some conspiracy to sell casino dice are ridiculous.
EDIT: after re-reading the third page I see that this was said already.


Ok, so he wasn't originally trying to sell dice. That doesn't mean that his results don't reflect real life at all, leading me to believe that it is either: fake, or has no merit anyways.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/624643.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/624643.page GMT Local dice rolling study
Make of it what you will. I did some Googling last night and was not able to find the lengthy paper I had read. This proves nothing either way.

I would suggest if someone wants to do a study of biased dice they get hold of a vernier micrometer screw gauge and measure their dice.

The other paper mentioned above, the one from the Canadian university, makes it clear that a key cause of bias is moulding inaccuracy.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/624677.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/624677.page GMT Local dice rolling study
Kilkrazy wrote:An interesting link.

http://www.geocities.com/dicephysics/3sided.htm


Killcrazy

I clicked on the link but there were no pictures.

Damn.

One guy did get a Masters degree with a thesis on dice shape theory however!

LOL



]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/624686.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/624686.page GMT Local dice rolling study
H.B.M.C. wrote:Don't care if they're great guys, how trustworthy they are or even if they're married to my sister (NB: I don't have a sister) if you show up to a tourney with your own custom made dice I walk. That simple.


AHAHA GBF is sitting in his basement right now with a jewel file and a box of uncut ivory ensuring the next tournament win.

Custom made dice doesn't mean weighted, it just means the company took a regular die that I am sure YOU use, and etched a symbol on it. I cant believe I even have to explain this!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/624703.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/624703.page GMT Local dice rolling study
HBMC. Are you really telling me that an opponent no using your idea of standard dice will be refused a game and branded a cheat? Isn't that a little extreme? Now, if the guy point blank refused to allow you to use the dice, then I would say having a suspicion as to the motivation is justified. But just refusing? Surely thats a little TFG?

GBF. May I ask why you felt the need to test the dice this way? I assume that you want to make sure they aren't duff? I myself have experience of duff dice (The bone coloured ones that came with the Fantasy Gamers Bag. They roll really badly!) and prefer not to use them.

Not being funny, but with the mixed feelings to WC on Dakka, I'd have thought you'd have expected people to question motivations.

And for everyone else jabbering on about different dice, whether a test was flawed, whether it was carried out, whether the results were deliberately skewed etc....Why so worried? Why so cynical? I repeat again, it's just a game. It's meant to be fun. Just buy your dice and put some trust in them.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/624803.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/624803.page GMT Local dice rolling study WC... I simply wanted to point out that all dice used for the study are identical/same batch.

G]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/624808.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/624808.page GMT Local dice rolling study
And you did mention WC in your post etc. But hey, as I said I get not wanting to mug yourself by using bad rollers!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/624814.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/624814.page GMT Local dice rolling study WC member?

G]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/624825.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/624825.page GMT Re:Local dice rolling study WC when discussing rolling custom dice made for the WC, how unusual.

For those that have not seen it, here is Colonel Zocchi telling us why only his dice are best (with some actual useful info too):

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bR2fxoNHIuU
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxmkWrDbn34]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/624953.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/624953.page GMT Re:Local dice rolling study
temprus wrote:Hmm, mentioning GBF mentioning the WC when discussing rolling custom dice made for the WC, how unusual.

For those that have not seen it, here is Colonel Zocchi telling us why only his dice are best (with some actual useful info too):

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bR2fxoNHIuU
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxmkWrDbn34

Very intersting videos, keeping in mind that they are a sales pitch, most everything seems earnest. However, this is in regards to dice with more than 6 sides (ovoid argument, not the rounded corner argument). And though his science is correct, it still doesn't establish that there is a statistically enough of a difference to mean anything. But worth a viewing. He does a great job explaining a bunch of stuff I didn't know I would find fascinating (like that casino dice are machined! no wonder they're expensive).

I would like some of his dice, anybody know where to get them?
Edit: found them, and they're cheaper than casino dice.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/625964.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/625964.page GMT Local dice rolling study http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/625983.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/625983.page GMT Local dice rolling study
Kilkrazy wrote:I never knew the round-edged dice were tumbled to smooth them off. I thought they were just moulded like that.
Oh man, I completely forgot about this. IMO this is the nail-in-the-coffin in the Yade "study." It claims that chessex makes the rounded corner dice to save plastic, but because of the way they're manufactured, the plastic is just ground off into fine dust...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/626289.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/626289.page GMT Re:Local dice rolling study
I'm not saying that this is a bad study or anything, but from my understanding of production and quality control principles you should not deam this to be the end-all be-all (sp) of dice studies. You need to understand that when a company produces dice (or more generally all industry for that matter) there is going to be variation. Variation of material may be minimal if the product is high quality, or if the quality is low the variation will be greater. When inspecting this you have to know whether the dice were produced in great batches, or smaller custom batches. If the company is producing 100,000 dice a day (highly unlikely, but I don't know much about the dice industry). a block of 25-100 dice is a drop in the bucket. They may have had run that is slightly off, or the QC guy was on a break who knows.

The point I'm trying to spit out is that variation of a product should be expected. I would reccomend to this company that they investigate how accurately they are producing their material. You're probably not the only one who got a "bad" batch.

Sorry I'm a qc guy and this stuff interests me. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/630101.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/630101.page GMT Local dice rolling study
Green Blow Fly wrote:I have to laugh that you keep bringing up that subject. If you were walking down the street and saw an actual wrecking crew demolishing a building would you automatically assume that they cheat? If the answer is yes how might they go about at cheating to destroy the building? Do you suppose they might try to solicit information from me to ascertain their vile plan or yet another WC member?

G


Well if it was a professional wrecking crew and their job was to demolish the building, I'd think nothing of it. If it was your motley crew, I'd dial 911.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/630183.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/630183.page GMT Local dice rolling study Yeah I love Yades is like 1's come up 29% of the time! That's almost 1/3rd so I think that is clearly ridiculous. I'm pretty sure everyone would already know about it based on personal experience.

People are already constantly lying to themselves about how bad they roll, if they really rolled that bad their heads would have exploded by now. Every half an hour at the tourney a head would go POP!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/630395.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/630395.page GMT Local dice rolling study
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

GBF. May I ask why you felt the need to test the dice this way? I assume that you want to make sure they aren't duff? I myself have experience of duff dice (The bone coloured ones that came with the Fantasy Gamers Bag. They roll really badly!) and prefer not to use them.




When he said he was ordering them in a thread on the WC forum there was debate about rounded and square dice and if there was a difference. I think that is why he posted this here.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/630403.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/630403.page GMT Local dice rolling study
G]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/630716.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/630716.page GMT Local dice rolling study http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/630775.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/630775.page GMT Local dice rolling study
willydstyle wrote:I also think it's important to play with rounded-edge dice because sharp-edged dice can be more easily manipulated to "control" your rolling.


That's why casinos require the player to bounce the dice off the end wall and hit the table twice, or something.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/631061.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/631061.page GMT Local dice rolling study
Kilkrazy wrote:
willydstyle wrote:I also think it's important to play with rounded-edge dice because sharp-edged dice can be more easily manipulated to "control" your rolling.


That's why casinos require the player to bounce the dice off the end wall and hit the table twice, or something.


As gamers we don't have gigantic bodyguards to enforce dice-rolling rules ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/631065.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/631065.page GMT Local dice rolling study
willydstyle wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:
willydstyle wrote:I also think it's important to play with rounded-edge dice because sharp-edged dice can be more easily manipulated to "control" your rolling.


That's why casinos require the player to bounce the dice off the end wall and hit the table twice, or something.


As gamers we don't have gigantic bodyguards to enforce dice-rolling rules


Depends on who your friends are, I suppose. I fit the gigantic bodyguard profile and another of my friends does also, and we like to enforce the dice-rolling rules.. but then again, how easy is it to cheat when you are rolling 36+ dice at one time.. If you manage that, I might just shake your hand, before I put my foot in your butt.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/633145.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/633145.page GMT Local dice rolling study
two_heads_talking wrote:If you manage that, I might just shake your hand, before I put my foot in your butt.


Stop that before you you get Malf excited...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/633158.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/633158.page GMT Re:Local dice rolling study ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/633164.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/633164.page GMT Local dice rolling study http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/633187.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/633187.page GMT Local dice rolling study
Arctik_Firangi wrote:Let's talk about this round die. It could work well, I thiink, if there were depressions on the inside that the ball could settle into, ensuring that an actual number turns face up. That was how I assumed it worked before it was explained.


NAhhhhhhh I think my response sorta covers it lol

Wasnt there a D100 with sand inside getting about ?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/633197.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/633197.page GMT Local dice rolling study
G]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/633206.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/633206.page GMT Local dice rolling study
Arctik_Firangi wrote:Let's talk about this round die. It could work well, I thiink, if there were depressions on the inside that the ball could settle into, ensuring that an actual number turns face up. That was how I assumed it worked before it was explained.


I had one of them when I was at university in the early 80s.

It was rubbish.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/633219.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/633219.page GMT Local dice rolling study
mussie76 wrote:
Arctik_Firangi wrote:Let's talk about this round die. It could work well, I thiink, if there were depressions on the inside that the ball could settle into, ensuring that an actual number turns face up. That was how I assumed it worked before it was explained.


NAhhhhhhh I think my response sorta covers it lol

Wasnt there a D100 with sand inside getting about ?


yes and each of the 100 faces had a bit of a smooth surface to settle on to. I still have one, but it takes forever to settle down and even then it's a novelty to have but worthless to use.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/633246.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/633246.page GMT Re:Local dice rolling study
Alex Kolodotschko wrote:I have a collection of poorly dice. The criteria are:
1)ugly,
2)badly weighted
3)hard to read.
I tend not to use them for any games at all and keep them
seperate to stop their various diseases spreading to my other dice.
I picked these up a week ago from a French craft fair.
I trust you will all agree my newest dice are 1,2 and 3.
I'm very happy with them!

(Also don't ever shake two or more glass dice in one hand at the same time! I used to have three of them!)

Dude, you SO need one of these then!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/633250.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/633250.page GMT Re:Local dice rolling study
Phloop wrote:
Alex Kolodotschko wrote:I have a collection of poorly dice. The criteria are:
1)ugly,
2)badly weighted
3)hard to read.
I tend not to use them for any games at all and keep them
seperate to stop their various diseases spreading to my other dice.
I picked these up a week ago from a French craft fair.
I trust you will all agree my newest dice are 1,2 and 3.
I'm very happy with them!

(Also don't ever shake two or more glass dice in one hand at the same time! I used to have three of them!)

Dude, you SO need one of these then!


see my above comment.. lol]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/633434.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/633434.page GMT Local dice rolling study

[Customer Reviews] Write your own review
**** This die is 100% novelty and 0% practical.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/633443.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/233821/633443.page GMT