Latest posts for the thread "Seer Council Pros and Cons"

Seer Council Pros and Cons

rcm2216 — GMT

I have done search engines, but none specifically addressed the core of my question, so thanks for your patience. I have been playing Eldar for seven years, and I have never ever played a seer council. I have played one Farseer in my list, but never more than one psyker with a retinue. This is major change for me that I have know personal experience with. I would be the only guy doing so in my gaming circle and club in a long time as well. I played against a seer council twice about six years ago under a different codex and edition.

What are the pro's and con's of either a footbased, mechanized based, or jetbike based seer council?

I am liking the jetbike based seer council with a lot of destructors to get rid of the horde based armies and make MEQ armies take a lot of saves.

Footsloggers, how to max out their advantages and avoid their disadvantages?

Jetbiker, how to max out their advantages and avoid their disadvantages?

Same for the wave serpent riding council?

Seer Council Pros and Cons

Airmaniac — GMT

First of all, let's look at some general advice that will go for any of the Seer Councils. You want at least one Warlock to take the Embolden power, so you can re-roll your Fortune attempts. The Enhance power is nice to have as well.
Personally, I'd never upgrade any of the Warlocks to carry a Singing Spear, as it reduces combat effectiveness. However, there are also Eldar player who upgrade some of their Warlocks with the Singing Spears.

On to the Jetbike Seer Council. Obvious advantages are mobility and added survivability (due to 3+ armour saves and T3(4)). This is, in my opinion, the best of the three Seer Councils. Their only disadvantage is dangerous terrain checks. To avoid this as much as possible, try to place the objectives outside of difficult terrain. This way, the opponent will need to get out of the terrain, which reduces your disadvantage.

A Seer Council on foot is very vulnerable to massive fire, as they are only slightly more survivable then Space Marines (even with Fortune). Their mobility isn't that good either. I wouldn't advise this type of Seer Council.

Like the footslogging Seer Council, the Wave Serpent mounted Seer Council is vulnerable to massive fire when caught in the open. Luckily, they are usually mounted in their Wave Serpent or engaged in combat. Lots of close combat attacks will bring them down relatively fast though (compared to the Jetbike Seer Council). Their mobility is obviously better then that of the footslogging Council, however, they can't move over speedbump units like the Jetbike Seer Council can. They aren't as mobile on the turn they charge, which can be a real pain.

Seer Council Pros and Cons

PanamaG — GMT

I do not like foot bases seer councils as they are slow and expensive. Also get eaten by psycannons...

They are much better on bikes where they get the 3+3+ and much larger movement. They also cant have their tank popped and be left stranded.

Seer Council Pros and Cons

willydstyle — GMT

Bike seercouncils are pretty much the no-brainer choice. I'd also like to point out that you get invulnerable saves from wounds caused by dangerous terrain, and a 4+ rerollable save is pretty good odds.

Seer Council Pros and Cons

Sarigar — GMT

The biggest obstacle is folks building a Jetbike Seer Council. It is worth the points to put the on bikes.

Seer Council Pros and Cons

Old Man Ultramarine — GMT

Bike Seer council is the best.

To address some of the above statements.

Terrain tests. Bikers have to take them. Casuality on a roll of a 1. Warlocks have 4+ invunerable save and if Farseer fortuned it's rerollable. Fairly safe to enter and use terrain.

Singing spears on Warlocks. Have to take them and here's why. Seer councils have to be the ones charging. They need to fire their destructors and spears. Picture a Land Raider with terminators armd with TH/SS. If you have to waste time killing LR on your charge, that leaves 5 to 8 terminators with 3 attacks each on charge to pulverize the council. Spears can kill a LR during shooting phase and getting charge on them knocks 1/3 on their attacks away.

My buddy and I are in middle of getting our jetbike armies painted. We had the big discussion of spears vs witchblades. Yes, blades give more attacks, but spears kill transports.

To not take spears and having to kill during your assault leaves council open to entire army shooting and then something assaulting. That is where the council fails.

Some stats from my friend. For the council to effectively take out a LR with spears during shooting phase you need 5-6 spears. For council to effectively take out 5 terminators over 3 combat phases their attacks need to add up to 40-42. With council charging, spears = 4 and witchblades = 7. Some combo has to equal 40+. Take these numbers for what their worth.

Seer Council Pros and Cons

Old Man Ultramarine — GMT

Sarigar wrote:The biggest obstacle is folks building a Jetbike Seer Council. It is worth the points to put the on bikes.

What do you do with council on foot? You waste time, friends.

You have to disembark, maybe shoot, can't charge, have to pray they are there after opponent turn, possibly lose transport. Then you have to find target to shoot ad charge, assuming they reacted to your disembark, then do all over, again. Complete Fail!

Bikes give 12" move, 3+ save, 6" assault move regardless if charging or not. That is pure WIN. Speed kills in 40k, friends. Please acknowledge that.

Build your armies around the Council, as they are the killers. Don't use council as a whim unit. They are too big a points sink for that.

Don't pussyfoot around. Do it right.

Seer Council Pros and Cons

rcm2216 — GMT

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:
Sarigar wrote:The biggest obstacle is folks building a Jetbike Seer Council. It is worth the points to put the on bikes.

What do you do with council on foot? You waste time, friends.

You have to disembark, maybe shoot, can't charge, have to pray they are there after opponent turn, possibly lose transport. Then you have to find target to shoot ad charge, assuming they reacted to your disembark, then do all over, again. Complete Fail!

Bikes give 12" move, 3+ save, 6" assault move regardless if charging or not. That is pure WIN. Speed kills in 40k, friends. Please acknowledge that.

Build your armies around the Council, as they are the killers. Don't use council as a whim unit. They are too big a points sink for that.

Don't pussyfoot around. Do it right.

How would you build your seer council to go all out without pussyfooting around?

LOL I have not heard that word in a long time.

Seer Council Pros and Cons

Old Man Ultramarine — GMT

The no Pussyfooting around Seer Council, lol. It has a ring to it. Awful

10 warlocks on bikes- x2 embolden, x2 enhance, 5-6 spears, 4 destructors. 545 pts (548 if add 6th spear)

Attached Farseer with stones, rune warding, doom and fortune on bike with spear. 178 pts

Notes If Farseer has spear that's one less needed in squad.

Seer Council Pros and Cons

Alerian — GMT

Ultramarine is missing some vital points...
The WS council can be far superior if done right.

First, a WS Council allows you to field Eldrad..who is far superior to even 2 JB Farseers.

Second, You can add in Yriel, instead of a basic Autaurch..again a far superior choice.
.
Third, a JB council can be shot at and lose numbers on the way in, while a WS council has the saftey of their transport.

Fourth, a JB council can be targeted by pychic powers (ie Lash, and the new IG Pyschic Choir)...the WS council is safe until they disembark.

Fifth, a JB council is targetable to anit-infantry weapons from the beginning, while the WS council is immune to them until they disembark...this makes them great isn a mech list, where everything is immune ot small arms.

I can add more, but I won't.

Yes, the JB council has its places in many lists, and it is very strong; however to say that it is alwyas better than a WS council is very shortsighted.

PS...did I mention that a WS council can have Eldrad and Yriel?

Seer Council Pros and Cons

Old Man Ultramarine — GMT

Alerian wrote:Ultramarine is missing some vital points...
The WS council can be far superior if done right.

First, a WS Council allows you to field Eldrad..who is far superior to even 2 JB Farseers.

Second, You can add in Yriel, instead of a basic Autaurch..again a far superior choice.
.
Third, a JB council can be shot at and lose numbers on the way in, while a WS council has the saftey of their transport.

Fourth, a JB council can be targeted by pychic powers (ie Lash, and the new IG Pyschic Choir)...the WS council is safe until they disembark.

Fifth, a JB council is targetable to anit-infantry weapons from the beginning, while the WS council is immune to them until they disembark...this makes them great isn a mech list, where everything is immune ot small arms.

I can add more, but I won't.

Yes, the JB council has its places in many lists, and it is very strong; however to say that it is alwyas better than a WS council is very shortsighted.

PS...did I mention that a WS council can have Eldrad and Yriel?

Well I guess if you want to be like every other chipmunk and run Eldrad and Yriel, you win.

You haven't blown us out with any tactics. What do you do with them? Ride the game away in Wave Serpent? You can't assault after disembark. Granted you can destructor and Eldrad mindwar. Then what? You get pwnd in opponents next shooting phase with the "sweet" 4+ rune armor.

Again, bikes are better as you have better movement options. WS council is cool if you don't feel like actually using them and want to ride around looking pretty. 900+ pts of fail.

Lash away on 3d6. The warp is calling. Not sure about IG choir and their requirements, but rest assured they would be target #1.

Seer Council Pros and Cons

Alerian — GMT

First turn...fly up 24", right in your opponents face.

Turn two, either he stayed close enough for you to hop out and assault, or you have herded his units right where you want them, by making them avoid the council. Either way, begining your second turn, you have vital control over a large area of the board...and risked little in gaining it.

This lets you begin the systematic anihilation of his army as he either throws units at the council in an attempt to slow them down, or you get free reign to assault whatever you want...plus you can spin Yriel off to "bomb" and one unit of your choice, when the time is right.

In short, the board control ability and combat capabilies of the "Uber" WS council can far outsine the pure "speed" of the JB council...they just take more knowledge and patience to use, thus making the JB counicl a more pleasing alternative to some.

Seer Council Pros and Cons

Old Man Ultramarine — GMT

I'm not biker council is end all and be all.

It's just in-game tactically better.

Seer Council Pros and Cons

Old Man Ultramarine — GMT

Alerian wrote:
Turn two, either he stayed close enough for you to hop out and assault, or you have herded his units right where you want them, by making them avoid the council. Either way, begining your second turn, you have vital control over a large area of the board...and risked little in gaining it.

Enlighten us with the "hop out and assault strategy". This unique style is unknown in these lands.

You are hanging in wind AND are now targeted by all the small arms fire of opponent. Whether it's your foot or my bikes, neither like a large amount of small fire as that is what withers away the squad.

Jamming squad in face is dangerous. Granted Yriel has power weapon, the only one in squad. You run risk of being tarpitted.

Bikes have benefit of 12" move with option to assault OR back off. Possibly staying out of range of small arms fire.

On Saves....3+ of bikes vs 4+ of foot is huge.

Re:Seer Council Pros and Cons

rcm2216 — GMT

A lot concerning each become list dependant.

I plan using about three to four serpents and two fire prisms. The serpents have DA and Fire Dragons. The seer council will include a jetbike autarch possibly if I go jetbike council. I will probaly use Yriel if I load the council in a Wave Serpent. I will not use Eldrad, but a regular Farseer, to save points. All this in a two thousand point list.

So I am trying to see which would be best with a list such as this. If I dump them off, I want to be able to keep the moble if they are needed else where. This could happen in a serpent if played right, but more of a guarantee I think on jetbikes. I could possibly get farther with Star Engines. I am definitely confused.

Seer Council Pros and Cons

Old Man Ultramarine — GMT

To ease your mind.

The council in Wave Serpent need the vehicle to survive to get anywhere. If it blows up, council will be sprinting.

Yes, alot depends on list. Avengers and Fire Dragons are good. They can be anti troop and tank ,contesting objectives while council is doing surgery.

Consider 2 Farseers, instead of Autarch. Autarch is good if your plan is to reserve army and want a power in army. x2 Faseers will help squads with guide, fortune and doom.

Re:Seer Council Pros and Cons

Old Man Ultramarine — GMT

And with that I stepdown

Hope this discussion helps. Playtest all these ideas and use the one that suits your style of play.

Seer Council Pros and Cons

Tacobake — GMT

Biggest disadvantage, just off the top of my head the Footsoggers are relying on Fleet rolls, so you are really only looking at another ~6 to 8" of movement. The Jetbikes move the full 12". Heck they can even go 12" + 6".

Seer Council Pros and Cons

DAaddict — GMT

Both foot and bike are good with bike council being superior.

Assuming a full council, it is the difference of 200+ points for getting all on bikes versus 100+ to put them in a wave serpent.

The bike offers a more aggressive set. 18" move each turn.

The ability to have eldrad and yriel in the foot council is a very potent combo too. The issue of on foot is that you will pick the point of criticality in the battle and send the foot council there and it better be right because you can't afford to remount and move, dismount and stand, and then finally charge again. Bikes can redeploy better and the 3+ save is awesome.

As far as spears, it is key that you kill landraiders so the goodies inside spill out so you can charge them. That means you need to average about 5 SS hits to get 3 penetrating hits so you get an average of 1 5-6 kill on the vehicle chart.

So... two choices 8 spears or 6 spears with guide to get the 5 hits.

Of course spears decrease you charge attacks considerably. So figure 8 termies in a LRC and you need to average 48 wounds to kill all 8. So figure you need 60 hits to get that and with enhance you need 90 attacks to average that. With all swords and full council that will take you 4 rounds of combat (2 full turns) to generate that many attacks. With all spears it takes you
8 rounds of combat (4 full turns of combat) to get 90+ attacks.

So the balancing act is how many spears do you need to take out the transport without emasculating the council in HTH.

Seer Council Pros and Cons

tzeentchling — GMT

OldManUltramarine, one comment before you step down. You have commented repeatedly that you can't disembark from a WS and charge. This is true only if the WS has moved that turn; otherwise they can jump out and charge. Hence the running forward 24" on the first turn. If anything juicy is in range, they can hop out and charge before the Serpent moves.

Note also that Eldrad does also have a one attack power weapon. Still, the two powerweapons in this squad (all of which wound on 2s) outnumber the 0 in the bike squad, or the 1 S3 power weapon with a bike autarch.

A further clever trick is having Eldrad cast Fortune on the squad, then Yriel disembarks to take on a different target while the council and Serpent move elsewhere. Yriel then benefits from Fortune for a whole turn while the squad is elsewhere, possibly very useful.

Overall, the foot council can be competitive, and has tools to take on heavily armored targets (eg 2+ saves, even 3+ saves are hard to get through) that the bike council can't. Of course, it relies on the WS for mobility, and is slightly weaker defensively (4++ and T3 vs 3+/4++ and T4), though you can at least put a few S7 hits on Eldrad without him popping.

Seer Council Pros and Cons

Sarigar — GMT

I've got both an Eldrad led Seer Council and a Jetbike Seer Council.

Racing across the board for an attack is a bit of a fallacy. It doesn't need to be done for the unit to be effective. I really don't want to race either unit all the way across the board unsupported. This thread seems to really put it out there as their only tactic and use.

However, the foot Council has a couple additional drawbacks.

-With Eldrad, there is no Fleet. This has bit me in the tail hard a few times.

-The Fortune and Yriel trick you mention is VERY questionable. I've seen this exact concept ruled illegal in tourneys. What is your basis for Yriel keeping Fortune after he leaves the unit that Fortune was cast upon?

-Eldrad has 2 attacks. It is never stated anywhere that the Staff takes two hands to use.

-With the IG codex, the use of Autarchs for Reserve purposes may become a moot point.

-I've yet to see very good looking Bike Seer units on the table, including mine. Cool idea and wish GW would actually make a model of it.

-Even on foot, a Fortuned Seer Council is very resistant to shooting, sans Demonhunter armies. I concede that the 3+ armor save from bikes makes them even more ridiculously resilient.

In the end, I think it really comes down to how many points you want to spend on a unit and are you willing to put in the work/effort to build a Seer Bike unit.

Seer Council Pros and Cons

rcm2216 — GMT

Sarigar wrote:I've got both an Eldrad led Seer Council and a Jetbike Seer Council.

Racing across the board for an attack is a bit of a fallacy. It doesn't need to be done for the unit to be effective. I really don't want to race either unit all the way across the board unsupported. This thread seems to really put it out there as their only tactic and use.

However, the foot Council has a couple additional drawbacks.

-With Eldrad, there is no Fleet. This has bit me in the tail hard a few times.

-The Fortune and Yriel trick you mention is VERY questionable. I've seen this exact concept ruled illegal in tourneys. What is your basis for Yriel keeping Fortune after he leaves the unit that Fortune was cast upon?

-Eldrad has 2 attacks. It is never stated anywhere that the Staff takes two hands to use.

-With the IG codex, the use of Autarchs for Reserve purposes may become a moot point.

-I've yet to see very good looking Bike Seer units on the table, including mine. Cool idea and wish GW would actually make a model of it.

-Even on foot, a Fortuned Seer Council is very resistant to shooting, sans Demonhunter armies. I concede that the 3+ armor save from bikes makes them even more ridiculously resilient.

In the end, I think it really comes down to how many points you want to spend on a unit and are you willing to put in the work/effort to build a Seer Bike unit.

Got some pics of your seer council?

What about anyone else?

I got four done so far (one farseer and three locks) and working on two more.

Seer Council Pros and Cons

willydstyle — GMT

Instead of putting spears on your council, and weakening it considerably... why don't you just shoot the transports with the other units you have in the army? Like... one unit of fire dragons in a wave serpent or falcon close by?

Seer Council Pros and Cons

EasyE — GMT

How would you change the setup on a mechanized Seer Council, versus a bike council power and equipment wise?

Seer Council Pros and Cons

Old Man Ultramarine — GMT

tzeentchling wrote:OldManUltramarine, one comment before you step down. You have commented repeatedly that you can't disembark from a WS and charge. This is true only if the WS has moved that turn; otherwise they can jump out and charge. Hence the running forward 24" on the first turn. If anything juicy is in range, they can hop out and charge before the Serpent moves.

Note also that Eldrad does also have a one attack power weapon. Still, the two powerweapons in this squad (all of which wound on 2s) outnumber the 0 in the bike squad, or the 1 S3 power weapon with a bike autarch.

A further clever trick is having Eldrad cast Fortune on the squad, then Yriel disembarks to take on a different target while the council and Serpent move elsewhere. Yriel then benefits from Fortune for a whole turn while the squad is elsewhere, possibly very useful.

Overall, the foot council can be competitive, and has tools to take on heavily armored targets (eg 2+ saves, even 3+ saves are hard to get through) that the bike council can't. Of course, it relies on the WS for mobility, and is slightly weaker defensively (4++ and T3 vs 3+/4++ and T4), though you can at least put a few S7 hits on Eldrad without him popping.

Yes, I was discussing this with someone when this dawned on me. I stopped mid-sentence and said " me" I apologize for being a damn fool.

Seer Council Pros and Cons

Old Man Ultramarine — GMT

willydstyle wrote:Instead of putting spears on your council, and weakening it considerably... why don't you just shoot the transports with the other units you have in the army? Like... one unit of fire dragons in a wave serpent or falcon close by?

In my case. I'm running a mostly jetbike army. 4 squads of bikes and 2-3 prisms. I do understand what you are saying, though.

Seer Council Pros and Cons

Airmaniac — GMT

willydstyle wrote:I'd also like to point out that you get invulnerable saves from wounds caused by dangerous terrain, and a 4+ rerollable save is pretty good odds.

Somehow, I missed this while reading the BGB. Thanks for the heads up!

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:Singing spears on Warlocks. Have to take them and here's why. Seer councils have to be the ones charging. They need to fire their destructors and spears. Picture a Land Raider with terminators armd with TH/SS. If you have to waste time killing LR on your charge, that leaves 5 to 8 terminators with 3 attacks each on charge to pulverize the council. Spears can kill a LR during shooting phase and getting charge on them knocks 1/3 on their attacks away.

My buddy and I are in middle of getting our jetbike armies painted. We had the big discussion of spears vs witchblades. Yes, blades give more attacks, but spears kill transports.

To not take spears and having to kill during your assault leaves council open to entire army shooting and then something assaulting. That is where the council fails.

Some stats from my friend. For the council to effectively take out a LR with spears during shooting phase you need 5-6 spears. For council to effectively take out 5 terminators over 3 combat phases their attacks need to add up to 40-42. With council charging, spears = 4 and witchblades = 7. Some combo has to equal 40+. Take these numbers for what their worth.

Actually, you probably won't kill a Land Raider with 6 Singing Spears. Every Singing Spear thrown has a (1/27) chance to destroy the Land Raider. This means the chance for 6 Singing Spears to destroy the Land Raider is equal to 1 - (26/27)^6 = 0,203. Your six Singing Spears combined have a 20% chance of actually destroying the Land Raider. That doesn't sound very good at all, especially considering those 6 Singing Spear carriers have now halved their amount of attacks in close combat.
But that isn't all yet. Half of those destroyed results won't see the Land Raider explode. If the Land Raider is making the crab crawl (like they usually do), the Assault Terminators are now able to disembark on the other side of the Land Raider, so that your Seer Council still can't charge them.
So you actually have a 10% chance of pulling of the: destroy the Land Raider -> charge the passengers tactic.

Seer Council Pros and Cons

Old Man Ultramarine — GMT

@ Airmaniac

You are familar with Doom and Guide, right?

Bikes also, can back off 6" if it's close.

What I'm saying is it's better to destroy LR in the shooting phase than in the assault phase.

Seer Council Pros and Cons

whitedragon — GMT

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:@ Airmaniac

You are familar with Doom and Guide, right?

Bikes also, can back off 6" if it's close.

What I'm saying is it's better to destroy LR in the shooting phase than in the assault phase.

Doom doesn't work against vehicles. Guide shouldn't be cast on your seer council. Your bikeseer should be casting doom on other things in the enemy army that the rest of your army will be engaging. I think you lose out a little bit by only running bikes instead of other troops in WS's in a mech/mobile army. The addition of a few extra vehicles means your Fire Prisms aren't the only thing your enemy is shooting AT stuff at.

The number of spears in your unit really dilutes the CC effectiveness of the seer council. They can put out quite a few wounds with their witch blades. 30 attacks from warlocks on the charge with witchblades all hitting on 3's usually and wounding on 2's is about 15-18 wounds before saves.

And you should really have some firedragons or wraithguard to put the hurt on land raiders, or you should be shooting it with a linked S10 AP1 blast from your fire prism. That has a much better chance of destroying it without watering down the strength of your seer council.

Seer Council Pros and Cons

Airmaniac — GMT

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:@ Airmaniac

You are familar with Doom and Guide, right?

Bikes also, can back off 6" if it's close.

What I'm saying is it's better to destroy LR in the shooting phase than in the assault phase.

As Whitedragon pointed out already, Doom doesn't work against vehicles. And even if it did, a Farseer can't be casting Doom, Guide and Fortune all in one turn, so what you are suggesting isn't possible with just the Seer Council.

Moving backwards 6" isn't going to be enough to avoid combat with the Assault Terminators.

I agree that it is better to destroy it in the shooting phase, only I'd use Bright Lances or Fire Dragons to do the job, as they are more reliable then Singing Spears are.

Seer Council Pros and Cons

Mellon — GMT

I'll just make a small input on modeling good looking jetbike councils: The Vyper chariot. Take a vyper and replace the heavy weapon and gunner with a platform for your farseer/locks to stand at. It gives a much more dignified feeling than having them drive their own bikes. They are supposed to be thousands of years old spiritual leaders, not bike gangers.

Seer Council Pros and Cons

Old Man Ultramarine — GMT

Fair enough guys.

My bad on doom vs. vehicles.

I failed to mention I will have x2 Farseers on bikes.