Dave47 wrote:Ok, so I had something of a learning experience in a "Pitched Battle" last night, and I want to check to make sure that everything went down kosher. The scenario involved a Land Raider that started at the edge of its deployment zone, turned sideways. It:

-Turns forward. (3")
-Moves its full move (12")
-Deploys Terminators (2")
-Who have 1.5" bases (1.5")
-Who roll a "6" on their run move (6")
-Who assault (6")

For a total move of 30.5" in a turn. (Even a 1" run would have covered 25.5".)

I guess my questions are twofold:

1) Is every step of this accurate? (I'm pretty sure it all is, but I'm still a bit shocked.)

2) How does IG deal with Land Raiders in Pitched Battle? I can throw sacrificial squads in front, but a solid "run" move usually gives enough extra movement to set up multiple assaults. Especially since the IC can move so as to detach from the Terminators...

onlainari wrote:1) Shrike gives terminators fleet. They don't have fleet normally.

Deathevn wrote:I could be mistaken, or my group and I have been playing it wrong, but doesnt turning the land raider use some of its movement? The rest of the order of events seems honest enough, if not a bit scary, I suppose the one thing i wonder is do the bases of the termies have to be within that 2 inch deployment, or just the back of the base touching. If they have to be within they shouldnt get 1.5" out of their base size? or am I reading into that wrong..

Dave47 wrote:-Turns forward. (3")

Dave47 wrote:

onlainari wrote:1) Shrike gives terminators fleet. They don't have fleet normally.

Thanks! A follow up: Does he give it to them as a universal rule thingy, or does he need to be attached to the squad at the time?

Gwar! wrote:The whole army gets fleet. Make sure to check out Shrikes Section in the SM codex when ya get a chance, should clear things up nicely

Dave47 wrote:

Gwar! wrote:The whole army gets fleet. Make sure to check out Shrikes Section in the SM codex when ya get a chance, should clear things up nicely

Yeah, I don't own the new SM book, but I think I really need to buy it. I keep hearing rules and thinking "That doesn't sound right," but I don't want to be a dick and grind everything to a halt to check whether Scouts really have a 2+ cover save.

Webbe wrote:

Dave47 wrote:-Turns forward. (3")

Incorrect. You may do this to get some distance but a Land Raider is not 6" longer than it is wide. I don't have the measurements of a Land Raider but my guess is that the gain would be 1-1.5"

Gwar! wrote:

Dave47 wrote:

Gwar! wrote:The whole army gets fleet. Make sure to check out Shrikes Section in the SM codex when ya get a chance, should clear things up nicely

Yeah, I don't own the new SM book, but I think I really need to buy it. I keep hearing rules and thinking "That doesn't sound right," but I don't want to be a dick and grind everything to a halt to check whether Scouts really have a 2+ cover save.

Dude, ask them. if they dont want to, they are the cheating dicks, not you. And yes, scouts can get a 2+ cover save if , and only if, there is a ruin, Techmarine and they have camocloaks. 4+ Ruin Becomes 3+ with the Bolster Defence (Techmarine) rule which then becomes 2+ with the Camo Cloaks (Stealth USR)

Blackbone wrote:I'm not sure what anyone is referring to when you are talking about getting extra movement from 'turning' the Landraider. Movement is a little more simple that - measure your 12" from the Landraider from it's starting position. That is the farthest you can move, period. You can position your vehicle however you wish at the 12" mark. Therefore, you move 12", no more.

Pivoting vehicles is only done if you are NOT moving the vehicle for purposes of firing more weapons.

Models that disembark have to be WITHIN 2" of an access point. Depending on your gaming group, some people will let you measure from the hull intead of the assault ramp door. If you measure from the hull, you can have a total assault distance of:
12" move
just under 2" disembark
the 1.5 inch/40 mm base
6" run (with fleet)
6" charge
Total - just under 27.5 inches

I mention this because I was seeing a lot of sloppy Landraider movement lately, where they are gaining a LOT of extra movement that is not making my gaming experience very happy.

- Blackbone

Hymirl wrote:I make it roughly 1.75 inches you would gain that way. Actually, you only gain 1" since you can't have your sponson sticking out your deployment zone...

KaloranSLC wrote:

Hymirl wrote:I make it roughly 1.75 inches you would gain that way. Actually, you only gain 1" since you can't have your sponson sticking out your deployment zone...

I thought sponsons and such were ignored for such purposes. Not to derail the thread or anything.

KaloranSLC wrote:

Hymirl wrote:I make it roughly 1.75 inches you would gain that way. Actually, you only gain 1" since you can't have your sponson sticking out your deployment zone...

I thought sponsons and such were ignored for such purposes. Not to derail the thread or anything.

Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

KaloranSLC wrote:

Hymirl wrote:I make it roughly 1.75 inches you would gain that way. Actually, you only gain 1" since you can't have your sponson sticking out your deployment zone...

I thought sponsons and such were ignored for such purposes. Not to derail the thread or anything.

I thought so too. The sponsons arn't part of the hull afaik.

Gwar! wrote:

Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

KaloranSLC wrote:

Hymirl wrote:I make it roughly 1.75 inches you would gain that way. Actually, you only gain 1" since you can't have your sponson sticking out your deployment zone...

I thought sponsons and such were ignored for such purposes. Not to derail the thread or anything.

I thought so too. The sponsons arn't part of the hull afaik.

It doesn't matter. The rules say the entire model has to be inside the deployment zone, which includes sponsons and the like.

Moncalcruiser wrote:You dont measure from the side of the tank. Pg. 57 says you can pivot any number of times as you move, so its not cheating, mayb power gaming but you work within the rules so its no worse than crafty wound allocation

whitedragon wrote:

Moncalcruiser wrote:You dont measure from the side of the tank. Pg. 57 says you can pivot any number of times as you move, so its not cheating, mayb power gaming but you work within the rules so its no worse than crafty wound allocation

You can pivot, but you can't pivot for free. If the vehicle moves 6", and when you finally plop it down (after doing donuts, figure 8's, wheelies', or whatever else) it is farther than 6" away from where it began its move, you moved it too far.

Gwar! wrote:

whitedragon wrote:

Moncalcruiser wrote:You dont measure from the side of the tank. Pg. 57 says you can pivot any number of times as you move, so its not cheating, mayb power gaming but you work within the rules so its no worse than crafty wound allocation

You can pivot, but you can't pivot for free. If the vehicle moves 6", and when you finally plop it down (after doing donuts, figure 8's, wheelies', or whatever else) it is farther than 6" away from where it began its move, you moved it too far.

All I have to say, is lol. Distance from the starting point means bugger all, its the actual distance travelled.

Gwar! wrote:No, that's velocity. If you move in a Zigzag or round a corner say, you might end up only 3" away from your starting position, but have travelled 6". While it is true you cannot end up more than 6" away from your starting position without having travelled more than 6", I just wanted to correct the notion that it was somehow distance from starting position that determined if you can fire or not.

For example, you can move 3" Forward, Pivot 90 Degrees, then move forward 4". You'll end up only 5" from your starting Position, but have travelled 7", so you would count as moving at Cruising Speed, not Combat Speed.

T3h Wikipediaz wrote:In physics, velocity is defined as the rate of change of a position. It is a vector physical quantity; both speed and direction are required to define it.

Gwar! wrote:

T3h Wikipediaz wrote:In physics, velocity is defined as the rate of change of a position. It is a vector physical quantity; both speed and direction are required to define it.

In this case "Speed" is not a factor of Distance and Time like in t3h real world, but a fixed movement amount

Did I mention Pancakes have Tiny Black Holes inside them? It's True! I tried to warn people in the Wikipediaz but they b& me ;(

Gwar! wrote:No, that's velocity. If you move in a Zigzag or round a corner say, you might end up only 3" away from your starting position, but have travelled 6". While it is true you cannot end up more than 6" away from your starting position without having travelled more than 6", I just wanted to correct the notion that it was somehow distance from starting position that determined if you can fire or not.

For example, you can move 3" Forward, Pivot 90 Degrees, then move forward 4". You'll end up only 5" from your starting Position, but have travelled 7", so you would count as moving at Cruising Speed, not Combat Speed.

Blackbone wrote:I'm not sure what anyone is referring to when you are talking about getting extra movement from 'turning' the Landraider. Movement is a little more simple that - measure your 12" from the Landraider from it's starting position. That is the farthest you can move, period. You can position your vehicle however you wish at the 12" mark. Therefore, you move 12", no more.

toxic_wisdom wrote:Pivoting a vehicle on its center point prior to moving the model is perfectly legal, and does not affect the distance traveled by the vehicle ( page 57 ).

Eldanar wrote:2. They may turn as many times as they want as they move. If you are not merely pivoting, and are actually moving after the initial pivot, then the movement gained by the pivot also must be considered into the total movement of the model as a whole because the turning is made as the model moves.

Eldanar wrote:

toxic_wisdom wrote:Pivoting a vehicle on its center point prior to moving the model is perfectly legal, and does not affect the distance traveled by the vehicle ( page 57 ).

Nowhere does it say that on p.57. You are taking several other statements there out of context.

The only way I would not take offense to someone doing this is if they actually did only pivot and then did not move at all. And that is what the rules say, "pivoting on the spot alone does not count as movement." Taking the negative inferrence from this, pivoting on the spot and then moving would then count as part of the movement. {Emphasis added.}

Using a pivot in order to gain extra movement is exactly that...gaining extra movement.

Page 57 wrote:Vehicles, with the exception of walkers and skimmers, that move at Cruising Speed following a road for their entire Movement phase may move up to an extra 6".

Gwar! wrote:

Page 57 wrote:Vehicles, with the exception of walkers and skimmers, that move at Cruising Speed following a road for their entire Movement phase may move up to an extra 6".

70 wrote:Passengers may not embark onto or disembark from a fast vehicle if it has moved (Of is going to move) flat out in that Movement phase.

So yes, a open topped vehicle/Land Raider that moves on a road 18" can have the passengers disembark and assault.

Gwar! wrote:

Eldanar wrote:2. They may turn as many times as they want as they move. If you are not merely pivoting, and are actually moving after the initial pivot, then the movement gained by the pivot also must be considered into the total movement of the model as a whole because the turning is made as the model moves.

Hmm, how do I say this nicely.. No. This is wrong and wrong and Wrong thrice over.

Rule for pivoting:
Page 57: Vehicles turn by pivoting on the spot about their centre-point, rather than 'wheeling' round. Turning does not reduce the vehicle's move.

Emphasis mine. So, there you have it, you cannot claim that distance gained by pivoting counts as movement, because it doesn't. Plain and Simple. And as shown by that wonderful diagram, you measure the distance moved from the front of the vehicle.

Your attempt to try and bring in WHFB rules are confusing and idiotic, please do not do it again (this thread is about 40k in case you were wondering.).