<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Lootas VS Stormboys"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/69.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Lootas VS Stormboys AYYYY!!

Whats happening!!


ok seriously i want to pick the brains of some players out there.

heres my problem my lootas (i use 12-15) have been TERRIBLE for me.

in the two tourneys (and just pick up games) i have played them in one of three things have happened:
A- They get blown to bits early
B- they take a few casualties and make a beeline for the table edge early
C- they fail to do any dmg, and then either A or B happens

i have tried using them in cover and with gretchin screens


their randomness is what draws me off for the most part.
i play a foot slogging army that basically consist of

2 meks- KFFs
lootas
gretchin
80 boys
6 kans
dread
BW
kokmmandos w/ snikk

and the lootas dont even seem to fit in with the rest of the army, trying to hang back and shoot stuff (very ineffectively for me)

basically the games i have lost were because of the lootas poor performance. other things need to change (like the BW) but i believe a large chunk of the blame is on them.


now come the stormboys, given the style of army that im playing does it seem like a better option to go with something more like this:

warboss-bike
mek-kff
80 boys
6 kans
1 dread
40 stormboyz

running it through my head i seem to think so just looking for some feed back from the best guys and gals i know!!! ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/692075.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/692075.page GMT Re:Lootas VS Stormboys CC army than a shooty army. I'm about to start playing Orks myself, and I'm not really going to emphasize shooting at all...I like your idea of the stormboyz over the Lootas (though I'm not sure why you got rid of the gretchin). Anyway, as I said, I by no means have any experience playing Orks, but it sounds good to me. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/692260.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/692260.page GMT Re:Lootas VS Stormboys Were the lootas in the Battlewagon with a KFF mek in as well? That way they're a lot tougher to kill, have mobility, all of them can shoot out since it's open topped,
and the KFF is measured from the battlewagon's hull rather then from just the mek's base.

Orks *can* do quite well in ranged but only if they focus on it. It looks like you need some more CC firepower for what your army is leaning towards. If anything in your army gets charged by 10 khorne berzerkers with a power fist,
you're in trouble. An equipped Nob Squad can still do well at that point, though obviously you want to be the one charging.

Lootas are some great ranged support, and for an ork if they took a lot of fire instead of de ladz slogging towards CC then they've done a good job. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/692344.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/692344.page GMT Lootas VS Stormboys
Storm Boyz though are really fun, but I think Lootaz are a better winning unit overall. They are the best light tank killer I know of.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/692349.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/692349.page GMT Lootas VS Stormboys KFF for that


i have tried using them an objective babysitters but thier low LD and terribad stats for me anyways they arent worth their points even as cheap as they are]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/692390.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/692390.page GMT Lootas VS Stormboys DS with Zagtruk and you can get some good pin point CC or go for the rear armor on some light tanks. Also don't be afraid of the d3 deaths for the assault just make sure to run 20 Stormboyz + Zagtrukk.

I haven't had good experience with the Gretchin so I think its worth dropping em.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/692483.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/692483.page GMT Lootas VS Stormboys INAT if I'm not mistaken) have ruled that Zagstrukk's d3 casualties count towards combat resolution, and even with furious charge MEQs are swinging before you. You're going to lose that fight thanks to the d3 and probably every one after it thanks to Zag's lack of Power Klaw after his first drop.

Zag = not worth it.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/696038.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/696038.page GMT Lootas VS Stormboys the usually tend to work great for me.

i have also used stormboyz, allways take zag with them.
he can get the drop on walkers in combat on the 1st turn (since he gets to strike in Init. order on the charge)

they are also good at picking off small elite units (even termies are game for them)

only problems are:

a: 12 points each
b: low armour, tend to get shot alot
c: tend to lose 1 every now and them due to accidents lol


other than that though they are pretty good in general
just kinda pissed that nobz / boss's cant take jump packs :(


if you are going to take a unit with zag then it may be worth taking a 2nd unit to help it out, counter charging any units that get in the way.
another highly mobile klaw allways helps.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/696048.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/696048.page GMT Lootas VS Stormboys KFFs. You should also max out any foot slogging boy units you have. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/696186.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/696186.page GMT Re:Lootas VS Stormboys SAG, but the KFF is probably more useful in the army youre running.

To clarify, the lootas can or can't shoot after the BW moves, I would think that they couldn't, but if they can that would be incredibly cheesy and I would have to whore that combo.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/700797.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/700797.page GMT Lootas VS Stormboys http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/700873.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/700873.page GMT Lootas VS Stormboys
So yeah Lootas are susceptible to bad shot rolls, which is why you should be looking for redundancy.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/700894.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/700894.page GMT Lootas VS Stormboys
Kevin Nash wrote:The chance of getting completely unlucky rolls with both units is highly unlikely.



1 out of 9.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/701055.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/701055.page GMT Lootas VS Stormboys
FuzzyOrb wrote:
Kevin Nash wrote:The chance of getting completely unlucky rolls with both units is highly unlikely.



1 out of 9.



Yes, a good illustration

So only an 11% chance to get terrible rolls vs. a 33% chance if you only run a single unit. So spend twice the points but get three times the effectiveness. Sort of. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/701081.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/701081.page GMT Lootas VS Stormboys
For instance, a common tactic I see with nids is several very small groups of genestealers running around. 5 groups of 8-10 geanstealers is fearsome if they get the charge off on you or even if you charge them with your initiative 2.

Introduce a barrage of strength 7 shooters that never even get close to the stealers to rain down destruction, and you very quickly turn whichever group your boyz were about to come into contact with into a road bump instead of a group wiper.

Probably their strongest point in my army is that they are able to fill in where the other boyz fail. I can work out all of my 18" shots first to see where I stand before even drumming up the lootas fire. Taking the same example above, if my boyz were busy preparing to charge something other than the stealers, or they planned to assault the stealers, but didn't land enough shots, then enter Lootas. Their support fire will typically decimate whatever it hits, or at least fill in the missing shots that the shootas couldn't land even when they roll badly.

Need a rhino to disappear so that you can charge the marine inside? Lootas do that very well.

Need a group of scouts that are picking off your nobz with their ridiculous special character to disappear? Lootas handle that quite well.

Ah, those fire warriors just got out of their fishies and annhiliated a whole group of boyz holding an objective! Lootas provide an armor piercing 2+ to wound retaliation strike custom made fire warrior eliminator.

Lootas have an excellent return rate in points per shot fired in comparison with your typical boyz squad, so keep them in cover to avoid giving away easy high point kills to your opponent. Keeping them on top of buildings is best for providing clear line of sight as well as keeping them off the ground floor to give usually an extra turn of defense from outflank attacks.

Do not put them on vehicles, as the only thing they should be doing from turn 1 on is shooting. Shake your fists at the sky in anger when you roll Dawn of War since that invariably means you will lose 1 round of their firepower.

Also, as noted above, always max out your boyz squads. I don't know how you are coming up with groups that end in 80, but if you are fielding your boyz in groups of 20, that probably has more to do with causing a defeat than your lootas. When constructing a group of regular boyz, be they shootas or sluggas, they always go in groups of 30 unless you are tossing them in a trukk. Just think of 30 boyz and a nob with a PK to be mandatory picks when you write down "ork boyz" on your army list, then adjust anything else based on preference.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/701098.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/701098.page GMT Lootas VS Stormboys http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/701182.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/701182.page GMT Lootas VS Stormboys
Skeletor wrote:I would always recommend running your loota's in groups of 9 or 13. It makes it so that they will have to take one more casualty before losing that 25% and having to take a moral check.


Nope...conventional wisdom (and my own Loota based army experience) says that you want Lootas in 12 or the full 15. Never start with less than 10, because you at least want to start out fearless, and 13 doesn't require any more losses than 12 before you cannot regroup. The reason for a full 15 is obvious..more boys to lose before you lose fearless and start meaking checks.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/701192.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/701192.page GMT Lootas VS Stormboys 13 = leadership test after 4 casualties. (average of 16 s4 hits to cause).

Two squads of 13 are the magic numbers for me.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/702418.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/702418.page GMT Re:Lootas VS Stormboys ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/702646.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/702646.page GMT Re:Lootas VS Stormboys CC quicker.

Its mind boggling.

I love stormboyz. A great close combat unit with a int striking PK, extra movement over other jumpack units, and all very orky.

I actually enjoy the risk of loosing a boy or two to rocket failure. Keeps the game interesting. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/702662.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/702662.page GMT Re:Lootas VS Stormboys
combatmedic wrote:Its amazing how an army built around close combat has a ranged unit favored over a unit that gets into CC quicker.

Its mind boggling.

I love stormboyz. A great close combat unit with a int striking PK, extra movement over other jumpack units, and all very orky.

I actually enjoy the risk of loosing a boy or two to rocket failure. Keeps the game interesting.


Its hard not to favor a ranged unit with str 7 48" range and a possible 3 shots. Lootas are incredible, they almost never completely fail when theyre used right. Stormboyz as far as I can tell, are like a 50/50 shot of great or nothing. The init PK is tempting, but you only get the one round with it, which is lame. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/702714.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/702714.page GMT Lootas VS Stormboys
Stormboyz can deepstrike, and do have access to Zagstrukk, although I personally would argue he's a huge waste of points (see my post above). The Stormboyz are going to be receiving cover from very little incoming fire, and have little to no survivability, with a stat line equivalent to a regular Choppa which costs roughly 1/3rd the points to take.

Lootas on the other hand fill a role that is otherwise lacking in the ork list that Carnuss pointed out earlier -- cleanup. A squad of Lootas can reach almost any point on the table, and offset their poor ballistic skill with excellent strength. On the other hand, they're begging to be hit with an outflank/deep strike assault, have no mobility, and can't hurt AV14.

The deciding factor for me is that I can use Trukk Boyz to achieve the same goal as Stormboyz. Lootas aren't replaceable.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/703073.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/703073.page GMT Re:Lootas VS Stormboys
combatmedic wrote:Its amazing how an army built around close combat has a ranged unit favored over a unit that gets into CC quicker.

The problem is that any unit in the Ork codex can do good to great in close combat, but only a few can shoot worth anything.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/703087.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/703087.page GMT Re:Lootas VS Stormboys http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/703223.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/703223.page GMT Lootas VS Stormboys In some battles I loose all my stormboyz and in some others not.
The lootas for me its a good long range ork unit. And often some enemis they dont have the time to shoot the lootas and focus on the orks in the front lines]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/703253.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/703253.page GMT Lootas VS Stormboys
Malecus wrote:Keep in mind though, a lot of tournament rulings (including INAT if I'm not mistaken) have ruled that Zagstrukk's d3 casualties count towards combat resolution, and even with furious charge MEQs are swinging before you. You're going to lose that fight thanks to the d3 and probably every one after it thanks to Zag's lack of Power Klaw after his first drop.

Zag = not worth it.

Zag has a powerklaw as long as he is in an assault, not just the initial turn.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/703271.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/703271.page GMT Re:Lootas VS Stormboys
The key is to have clear firing lines and not too much in the open... having lots of threat saturation helps...

Remember it is safe to shoot through your orks, and grethins at things like terminators and MEQS as they will get a 3+ save anyway and will not take the inferior 4+ save you kindly hand to them... With this in mind, if they shoot back, you now have the 4+ save... ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/703643.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/703643.page GMT Re:Lootas VS Stormboys KP missions, and use them to get objectives with your grots in the other missions.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/704737.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/704737.page GMT Re:Lootas VS Stormboys http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/705314.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/705314.page GMT Lootas VS Stormboys
Malecus wrote:Keep in mind though, a lot of tournament rulings (including INAT if I'm not mistaken) have ruled that Zagstrukk's d3 casualties count towards combat resolution, and even with furious charge MEQs are swinging before you. You're going to lose that fight thanks to the d3 and probably every one after it thanks to Zag's lack of Power Klaw after his first drop.

Zag = not worth it.


No, with furios charge you get 5 I4 WS5 S9 attacks, same swing time as MEQs, hit on 3s, ignores armor saves, causing an average of 3 dead marines from him alone, that negates the maximum casualties for his swoop attack losses then you add the attacks from the rest of the stormboyz and you just won that combat. Not to mention that he can penetrate a land raider on the turn he deep strikes. Also, Zagstruck has a PK every time he charges not just the first. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/707891.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/707891.page GMT Lootas VS Stormboys
olympia wrote:Zag has a powerklaw as long as he is in an assault, not just the initial turn.


That's not the way I'm reading Zagstruck's entry:

"On any turn that Zagstruk charges, he counts as having a power klaw that strikes in normal Initiative order..."

Parsing the English we can assume that on any turn that he does NOT charge, he does NOT count as having a PK that strikes in normal Initiative order.

Now let's look at his listed Wargear: Stormboy Rokkit Pack, Stikkbomz, Cybork Body, Choppa, Slugga. I don't see Power Klaw in there.

Conclusion: On turns in which Zagstruk does NOT charge, he does NOT count as having a Power Klaw.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/708004.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/708004.page GMT Lootas VS Stormboys PK on the charge, he will inevitably be "Counter-Assaulted" and denied Furious charge and the PK... This leads to a unit of unbreakable boys lead by a Nob with out a PK to put you over the edge for Combat resolution...

The upside is that your opponent will have too take out every last boy before hurting ol'Zag and he will be trapped in combat until the entire unit is dead... however 385 points to trap a unit of infantry and kill another seems hardly worth it in Annihilation games but may be worth it in Capture and control types games...

This all goes back to defining "how a unit earns its points back"... 385 points may seem like a lot but if it keeps your opponents 400 point unit of terminators from hunting your Walkers then Zag's unit may earn back the points through the mayhem the Walker caused.

The presence of Zag on the side of the table waiting to deep strike tends to produce the Snikrot effect as your opponent will have to deploy differently and keep "counter assault" units near vulnerable targets... This can give you a small tactical edge as you have no such restrictions on your deployment or advancement.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/709204.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/709204.page GMT Lootas VS Stormboys
Zag is a 1/3 yes 2/3 no unit. The "best" way to deepstrike Stormboyz is far away from enemy units; this keeps you safe from bad scatter rolls and is compensated for by their excellent movement range. It also makes Zagstruck worthless.

Snik on the other hand comes in off of any table edge, can Waagh!, is S6 with 6 attacks against rear armor, and 2 burnas will either squash lightly armored squads in cover or can be used as power weapons against MEQs.

Lootas for killing, Snikrot for disruption, Zag for ... fluff?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/709212.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/709212.page GMT Lootas VS Stormboys
sourclams wrote:If you're looking for a powerful disruption unit from reserves, then Snikrot and Kommandos with burnas is the way to go, not Zag.


Nothing is stopping you from taking both, these are orkz we're talking about redundancy is your friend.

EDIT: fixing quote mistake
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/709377.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/709377.page GMT Lootas VS Stormboys
That's not Redundancy, that's point hemorrhage.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/709384.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/709384.page GMT Re:Lootas VS Stormboys
indigo_jones wrote:I've never found stormboyz to work extremely effectively, but I have had some luck with them flying alongside a BW. I wouldn't run 40 of them, at the most 20 with Zags. Lootas are good, very good, and remember if one squad is good, two is better. Putting them in the BW is cool, but you lose round of shooting by having to move them in there, as elites they can't take the BW as dedicated. Even if they don't really mess a lot of things up, the psychological impact is worth the points, you'll force youre opponent into different areas since he'll want to avoid getting shot by the lootas firing lanes. Its nice to compliment the Lootas with a Big Mek with SAG, but the KFF is probably more useful in the army youre running.

To clarify, the lootas can or can't shoot after the BW moves, I would think that they couldn't, but if they can that would be incredibly cheesy and I would have to whore that combo.


Maybe this is a stupid question, but I thought you could start the Lootas in the BW? It says "Dedicated transports can only deploy with the original squad inside".. Am I wrong in taking this to infer that other transports can start with whatever unit you like inside?

Maybe it's covered somewhere else and I missed it.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/709686.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/709686.page GMT Lootas VS Stormboys
sourclams wrote:Er... spending 400 points on 30 Ork models doesn't seem like a very good idea to me.

That's not Redundancy, that's point hemorrhage.


If those points are spent on 2x 15 man squads of lootas, then they are points very well spent ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/709695.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/709695.page GMT Lootas VS Stormboys http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/709744.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/709744.page GMT Lootas VS Stormboys
sourclams wrote:Er... spending 400 points on 30 Ork models doesn't seem like a very good idea to me.

That's not Redundancy, that's point hemorrhage.


Ahem, make that 20 boyz... Stormboyz don't come in groups of 20, making it all the more difficult to justify those points. But, who doesn't enjoy fielding a group of them just to have an assault squad available to fill gaps? I don't know that you can justify Zagstruk's cost, but a typical nob + pk + boss poll deployed with the rest of the boyz (read no deepstrike) can typically pay for itself, or draw enough fire to make the opponent weep when the rest of your relatively undamaged line hits his front ranks.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/710501.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/710501.page GMT Lootas VS Stormboys
Carnuss wrote:
sourclams wrote:Er... spending 400 points on 30 Ork models doesn't seem like a very good idea to me.

That's not Redundancy, that's point hemorrhage.


Ahem, make that 20 boyz... Stormboyz don't come in groups of 20, making it all the more difficult to justify those points. But, who doesn't enjoy fielding a group of them just to have an assault squad available to fill gaps? I don't know that you can justify Zagstruk's cost, but a typical nob + pk + boss poll deployed with the rest of the boyz (read no deepstrike) can typically pay for itself, or draw enough fire to make the opponent weep when the rest of your relatively undamaged line hits his front ranks.


This.

While I enjoy Zags rather Orky rules, in game terms a nob with some boys is just as good, if not better. I have said it before and Ill say it again, an army who focuses on close combat should utilize a squad like this. Plus their are fun as hell.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/716750.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/238293/716750.page GMT