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		<title><![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "1500 Tournament CSM"]]></title>
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				<title>1500 Tournament CSM</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Ok, there is a tournament coming up at my <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(38);'>flgs</span> and I have come up with this list to get the job done. <br /> <br /> <b><span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(56);'>HQ</span></b><br /> Daemon Prince, Wings, Mark of Khorne<br /> Daemon Prince, Wings, Mark of Khorne<br /> Greater Daemon<br /> <br /> <b>Troops</b><br /> 8 Khorne Berzerkers, Champ, Power weapon, Personal Icon<br /> 8 Khorne Berzerkers, Champ, Power weapon, Personal Icon<br /> <br /> <b>Elites</b> <br /> 3 terminators, 3 combi plasma guns, Power fist<br /> 3 terminators, 3 combi plasma guns, Power fist<br /> <br /> <b>Heavy Support</b><br /> Land Raider, Daemonic Possession<br /> Land Raider, Daemonic Possession<br /> <br /> The plan is simple. Berzerkers go in the Land Raiders and drive full speed toward the enemy. The Daemon Princes are screened by the Land Raiders and the Greater Daemon is dropped off using Land Raiders when he comes in. Daemon Spamming seems like a good idea with <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(22);'>CSM</span>, especially at 1500. <br /> The terminators either drop in off of the Icons and blast away at whatever needs killing, or drop in and shoot a tank's rear armor. I will start Play testing this on Monday. I have run expanded versions of this in larger points games, and hope that it has the same results in the smaller games as well. Your thoughts would be appreciated. <br /> <br />  ]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Sun, 17 May 2009 01:41:27]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ extrenm(54)]]></author>
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				<title>Re:1500 Tournament CSM</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Chaos <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(87);'>LR</span>'s aren't that great in the first place, but adding <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(262);'>DP</span> makes them awful. You don't have enough troops, and since Khorn throws its troops the enemy, whats caping objectives? Without that, you got 2 termicide units (they are referencing suicide for a reason) and three <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(93);'>MC</span>'s, one must be summoned. <br /> <br /> I would <br /> <br /> - drop <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(262);'>DPs</span>, replace with Kharn   <br /> - drop a <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(87);'>LR</span> for 2 Predators w/Heavy Bolters, <br /> - Drop the Princes and Greater Daemon, add 3 Oblits <br /> - Drop one termicide unit, <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(105);'>PF</span> --&gt; Chainfist, add a TLC Character and add a Reaper Autocannon and the Chainfist guy gets a combi-melta <br /> - Termicide and Kharn go into the <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(87);'>LR</span><br /> - 2 Zerker squads get rhinos <br /> ]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Sun, 17 May 2009 02:22:47]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ EzeKK]]></author>
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				<title>1500 Tournament CSM</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ I am curious as to why you think Chaos Land Raiders bad, With <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(262);'>DP</span> they are cheaper than their loyalist machine spirit counter parts and great for dropping off assault units. But still, I am interested as to why you disagree. <br /> <br /> As for your suggestions:<br /> Kharn, as awesome as he is, can get popped by a power fist, and if I run him with terminators as you suggest, he has a good chance of killing several of them himself before the game is over. <br /> <br /> I know I am light on troops, but when using a <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(19);'>CC</span> army you cannot afford to leave a unit back and sit on objectives. You have to go at the enemy and take their objectives from them. <br /> <br /> As for taking predators, I am trying to stick with a Khorne <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(19);'>CC</span> theme and do not see myself taking predators. Partly, because I do not have any and I do not feel that they would complement the <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(19);'>CC</span> elements of the list very well. ]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Sun, 17 May 2009 03:35:56]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ extrenm(54)]]></author>
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				<title>1500 Tournament CSM</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ i think that the power fists make your terminators an easy target for other elites, you should either, make them better in ranged combat or in <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(19);'>cc</span>.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Sun, 17 May 2009 04:04:25]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ serotol]]></author>
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				<title>Re:1500 Tournament CSM</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ This list wont win any games in a tournament.  Very simple 2 tropps... 5 to 6 turns in 2 1/2 hours of play. Attrition will get them killed. Kb are great and all but after the charge you are going to get counter charged or shot to death. Any smart player will just kill your 2 troops and he has the game on lock. The greater daemon is taking over an A.C... so you wasting 15 points on a power weapon.<br /> <br /> Also... your model count are you serious?<br /> <br /> Daemon Princes +3/+5svs... <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(99);'>MoK</span> is the worst mark for A <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(262);'>DP</span>. <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(71);'>IMHO</span>.<br /> What I see is 2 forces and mirror image of one another. 1 flank land raider moves screening a daemon prince (cover save,k) with charging zerkers 2nd flank the same. 2nd turn if your reserve roll isn't a 4+ your termies are not going to support the <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(527);'>KB</span> that have the Icon (you making 2 rolls 50/50, you will make 1 reserve roll, maybe).<br /> <br /> If you want to play for fun great blood for the blood good! but if you want to win or do decent in a tournament you need atleast 3 troops. Also.. <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(22);'>CSM</span> marines are way better than <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(527);'>KB</span> for the point cost. You get 1 base but you have a close combat weapon and a pistol so 2 attacks in close combat 3 on the charge. With the option of rapid firing(you have bolters still) and special weapons. You don't get the <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(397);'>FC</span> but more versatile and less points. In tournaments you need versatility if you want to win. <br /> <br /> I love Khorne but most khorne lists in tourneys get best sportsmanship award and only if they keep their cool while they lose.<br /> <br /> If you still want to stick to <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(19);'>CC</span> khorne. L.C termies with <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(99);'>MoK</span> in a <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(80);'>LC</span>. Take <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(22);'>CSM</span> with mark of Khorne.  Drop the G.D. he cant even fly anymore.<br /> -rls]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Sun, 17 May 2009 08:57:03]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ rlsquared2]]></author>
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				<title>1500 Tournament CSM</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ In the past, taking 2 princes and a Greater Daemon has served me well, so I think I will stick with that. I know that the khorne berzerkers have the potential to get shot up after they assault, but I have found that if you assault in the right places, then you can avoid this. But still, I see your point. <br /> <br /> I am thinking of switching out the terminator squads for <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(19);'>CC</span> dreadnought, giving me a list like this:<br /> <br /> <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(56);'>HQ</span>:<br /> Daemon Prince, <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(99);'>Mok</span>, Wings<br /> Daemon Prince, <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(99);'>Mok</span>, wings<br /> Greater Daemon<br /> <br /> Troops:<br /> 8 Khorne berzerkers, champ, <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(486);'>PW</span><br /> 8 Khorne berzerkers, Champ, <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(486);'>PW</span><br /> <br /> Elites:<br /> Dreadnought, dual <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(19);'>CC</span> weapon, extra armor, heavy flamer<br /> Dreadnought, dual <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(19);'>CC</span> weapon, extra armor, heavy flamer<br /> <br /> Heavy Support:<br /> Land Raider, Demonic Possession<br /> Land Raider,Daemonic Possession <br /> <br /> I am not sure if this is better than taking terminators, since dreadnoughts are even more random, but I think it could be fun, and give me a solid counter to bloodcrushers or genestealers, the two things that charging berzerkers bounce off of. <br /> ]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 28 May 2009 13:48:52]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ extrenm(54)]]></author>
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				<title>Re:1500 Tournament CSM</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Dreads are worse than the terminators. You need more troops. You will lose 16 berzerkers too easily in a game to have any real chance of capturing an objective. That greater demon also isnt good because it will be eating one of your expensive berzerker champs. Mark of khorne is the worst choice for a <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(262);'>DP</span>.Its better to leave it unmarked and give it warp time (call it fury of khorne). <br /> <br /> You do NEED more troops. Its worth dropping the <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(42);'>GD</span> for more berzerkers. You should get rid of the dreads entirely because they are so terrible. Use the points left over from them to fill out another squad of berzerkers in a rhino. Any points you have left over you can use on powerfists fro your berzerker champs.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 28 May 2009 14:39:59]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Regwon]]></author>
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				<title>1500 Tournament CSM</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Drop both dreadnoughts, and a land raider, and the greater daemon.<br /> <br /> Replace with a squad of chosen, and more troops. ]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 28 May 2009 15:34:30]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Canonness Rory]]></author>
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				<title>1500 Tournament CSM</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Assault is not enough to kill any army. You have to have a balance of assault and shootyness. Your 'zerkers may get to assault into something (good chance with <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(87);'>LRs</span> with <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(262);'>DP</span>) but even if they connect, may or may not kill the squad. If they do, they get shot to hell and die the next turn. Period. Have more troops, because Chaos troops kick ass by themselves or don't even bother going. <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(42);'>GD</span> work fine or sometimes great, but only if you have several places for them to come in so you can choose the best one. On top of that, two <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(87);'>LRs</span> are eating way too many of your points at this level. I get that they're not as fancy, but Rhino's do half their job for much, much less.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 28 May 2009 17:06:46]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Cannerus_The_Unbearable]]></author>
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				<title>Re:1500 Tournament CSM</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ At a 1500 points level, as above posters have pointed out, you need more troops. As a fellow Khorne player, I understand your desire for the land raiders, zerkers, etc.<br /> <br /> Before I go into any detail, I would like to point out that EzeKK made some terrible suggestions. For one thing, Kharn, for this list, is in no way an improvement. With a low model count like this, he puts your models more at risk, always a bad idea. On top of tht, he costs more points than a Khorne <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(262);'>DP</span>, and winds up being about equal in <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(19);'>CC</span> thanks to the <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(262);'>DPs</span> better survivability and superiority against armor. Also, you should never put kharn with terminators, they cost twice as much as a berzerker if Kharn rolls a 1, and they tend to have different targets than Kharn will. And finally, predators just suck.<br /> <br /> As much fun as it is to have 3 <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(93);'>MCs</span> and two <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(87);'>LRs</span>, it really does hurt your troop count. And speaking of troopss, give your <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(382);'>SCs</span> Powerfists, or the enemy can tarpit them and take them apart with a single Dreadnought, Carnifex, Wraithlord, etc.<br /> <br /> If you drop one raider, the <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(42);'>GD</span>, which you don't really need, especially coming in on one of your few troops models, and 3 of the suicide terminators (you have almost 240 points sunk into one-shot units!), you suddenly have about 500 points! This is enough to double your troops count, and give the zerks that don't have a Land Raider some rhinos to keep mobility. Alternately, you can keep two land raiders and still be able to add another full squad of berzerkers.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 28 May 2009 18:29:39]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ fatal_GRACE]]></author>
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				<title>1500 Tournament CSM</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Hmm, I think I am stuck in the mindset of 2000 point games. <br /> <br /> First off, I am glad I am not the only one who noticed how bad EzeKK's advice was.<br /> <br /> You are right about the dreadnoughts...as much as I like them, they wont do well in a tournament setting. Not with this list anyway.<br /> <br /> You are right that I need more troops, but termicide units have proved invaluable to me in the past. What about this?<br /> <br /> <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(56);'>HQ</span><br /> Daemon Prince, Wings, Mark of Khorne<br /> Daemon Prince, Wings, Mark of Khorne<br /> <br /> <br /> Troops<br /> 10 Khorne Berzerkers, Champ, Power fist, Personal Icon<br /> 10 Khorne Berzerkers, Champ, Power fist, Personal Icon<br /> <br /> Elites<br /> 3 terminators, 3 combi plasma guns, Power fist<br /> 3 terminators, 3 combi plasma guns, Power fist<br /> <br /> Heavy Support<br /> Land Raider, Daemonic Possession<br /> Land Raider, Daemonic Possession <br /> <br /> its only four more troops, but its better than nothing. ]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 28 May 2009 21:21:08]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ extrenm(54)]]></author>
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				<title>Re:1500 Tournament CSM</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ It is an improvement over the original list, and pretty close to what I run, as you know from my 2k list, heh. Even so, I would like to see some more troops. the problem here is that though your berzerkers are pretty tough to kill, they can wind up tied in combat very easily, and then you have no scoring units able to reach objectives. dropping even 2 of your termicides and two from the zerks again would give you the points for a third squad in a rhino, I believe.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 28 May 2009 21:33:24]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ fatal_GRACE]]></author>
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				<title>1500 Tournament CSM</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Berzerkers are no harder to kill than a regular marine and cost more. You need some Objective fodder, even if it has to be Lesser Daemons or something.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 28 May 2009 21:42:48]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Cannerus_The_Unbearable]]></author>
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