Latest posts for the thread "IG Infantry squad mathhammer"

IG Infantry squad mathhammer

Polonius — GMT

After a few debates about the cost benefit ration of Plasma guns to Grenade launchers in IG infantry squads, I sat down and crunched some numbers. If anybody with more know how than me wants the original Excel sheet to post somewhere (or can tell me how to attach a file), they're welcome to the full spread sheet. The gist is repeated below.

First, I analyzed how many successful wounds each weapon would inflict with a single round of shooting, ignoring rapid fire (it's easy to double the output of lasguns and Plasma guns). Interesting side note: Against Orks, Marines, and terminators it takes 2.5 Frag Grenade hits to do as much damage as a single Krak grenade. This goes way up if the model has a 4+ save out of cover, of course.

Note: the ^^ symbol means that the target is in 4+ cover.

------------------ Ork ------Ork ^^ --MEQ MEQ^^ --Term Term ^^ --2+/3++ --Plague --Plague ^^
Lasgun-----------0.139 0.083 0.056 --0.056 0.028 0.028 0.028 0.014 0.014
Flamer (per hit)-0.500 0.500 0.167 --0.167 0.083 0.083 0.083 0.056 0.056
Flamer (4 hits)--2.000 2.000 0.667 --0.667 0.333 0.333 0.333 0.222 0.222
Frag (per hit)----0.167 0.083 0.056 --0.056 0.028 0.028 0.028 0.014 0.014
Frag (2.5 Hits)---0.417 0.208 0.139 --0.139 0.069 0.069 0.069 0.035 0.035
GL Best Choice--0.417 0.208 0.139 --0.139 0.069 0.069 0.069 0.056 0.056
Krak--------------0.417 0.208 0.139 --0.139 0.069 0.069 0.069 0.056 0.056
Sniper------------0.250 0.125 0.139 --0.097 0.083 0.069 0.056 0.111 0.049
Melta -------------0.417 0.208 0.417 --0.208 0.278 0.208 0.139 0.417 0.208
Plasma-----------0.417 0.208 0.417 --0.208 0.278 0.208 0.139 0.417 0.208

Mortar (per Hit) 0.250 0.125 0.083 0.083 0.042 0.042 0.042 0.028 0.028
H. Bolter 1.000 0.500 0.333 0.333 0.167 0.167 0.167 0.125 0.125
AC (2 shots) 0.833 0.417 0.278 0.278 0.139 0.139 0.139 0.139 0.139
Frag (per Hit) 0.250 0.125 0.083 0.083 0.042 0.042 0.042 0.028 0.028
Krak 0.417 0.208 0.417 0.208 0.069 0.069 0.069 0.417 0.208
Lascannon 0.417 0.208 0.417 0.208 0.278 0.208 0.139 0.417 0.208

This is just for basic number crunching later on.

Next up is a chart of the glancing and penetrating hits done:

AV10 G AV10 P AV11 G AV11 P AV12 G AV12 P AV13 G AV13 P Av14 G AV14 P
Flamer (per hit) 0.167 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000
Krak 0.083 0.167 0.083 0.083 0.083 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000
Sniper 0.028 0.056 0.028 0.028 0.028 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000
Melta 0.083 0.333 0.083 0.250 0.083 0.167 0.083 0.083 0.083 0.000
Melta <12" 0.014 0.486 0.028 0.458 0.042 0.417 0.056 0.361 0.069 0.292
Plasma 0.083 0.250 0.083 0.167 0.083 0.083 0.083 0.000 0.000 0.000

H. Bolter 0.250 0.250 0.250 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000
AC (2 shots) 0.167 0.500 0.167 0.333 0.167 0.167 0.167 0.000 0.000 0.000
Krak 0.083 0.333 0.083 0.250 0.083 0.167 0.083 0.083 0.083 0.000
Lascannon 0.083 0.417 0.083 0.333 0.083 0.250 0.083 0.167 0.083 0.083

I'm going to skip a lot of the hairy math (I can post it if really wanted, but it's a pain to format here), and just skip to my rough simulation. I ran the numbers for AC/GL and AC/PG over three turns: two turns of firing between 12 and 24", and one turn under 12". For plasma guns, I added the full value of one round, .888 (the chance of not killing itself) of a second round, and .7744 of twice the normal results for the third round at close range. I felt this take into account the diminishing value of plasma shooting. I calculated the total kills against each target, then divided the kills for AC/GL against the AC/GL to provide a performance value. This performance percentage is then divided by the price increase percetange as compared to AC/GL. This gives what I call the effeciency ratio.

Ork Ork ^^ MEQ MEQ^^ Term Term ^^ 2+/3++ Plague Plague ^^
Basic 5.139 3.083 2.056 2.056 1.028 1.028 1.028 0.514 0.514
AC/GL 7.222 3.958 2.639 2.639 1.319 1.319 1.319 0.931 0.931
AC/PG 9.901 5.298 4.484 3.770 2.480 2.242 2.004 2.609 1.895

Perf 137.1% 133.8% 169.9% 142.9% 188.0% 169.9% 151.9% 280.4% 203.6%
Effeciency 118.8% 116.0% 147.3% 123.8% 162.9% 147.3% 131.6% 243.0% 176.5%

What this shows, unless my math is wrong, is that against all infantry targets, the AC/PG build is a more efficient way to spend points than the AC/GL over three rounds of shooting, once at 12".

Against Vehicles, I ran four builds: every combo of AC, LC, GL, and PG against all AVs.

AV10 G AV10 P AV11 G AV11 P AV12 G AV12 P AV13 G AV13 P Av14 G AV14 P
AC/GL 0.250 0.667 0.250 0.417 0.250 0.167 0.167 0.000 0.000 0.000
AC/PG 0.417 1.250 0.417 0.833 0.417 0.417 0.417 0.000 0.000 0.000
LC/GL 0.167 0.583 0.167 0.417 0.167 0.250 0.083 0.167 0.083 0.083
LC/PG 0.250 1.083 0.250 0.833 0.250 0.583 0.250 0.333 0.167 0.167

Against AV13 G and below, the following is the efficiency at over 12":

Armor AV10 G AV10 P AV11 G AV11 P AV12 G AV12 P AV13 G
AC/PG 86.7% 97.5% 86.7% 104.0% 86.7% 130.0% 130.0%
LC/GL 57.8% 75.8% 57.8% 86.7% 57.8% 130.0% 43.3%
LC/PG 51.0% 76.5% 51.0% 91.8% 51.0% 152.9% 76.5%

At under 12":

Effeciency over AC/GL
AC/PG 144.4% 162.5% 144.4% 173.3% 144.4% 216.7% 216.7%
LC/GL 57.8% 75.8% 57.8% 86.7% 57.8% 130.0% 43.3%
LC/PG 76.5% 124.3% 76.5% 152.9% 76.5% 267.6% 114.7%

Here, amazingly, the AC/GL is better as an anti-transport choice, with a better chance of dealing with most light vehicles.

Re:IG Infantry squad mathhammer

augfubuoy — GMT

I think the only problem is the fact that all of your infantry targets were T4, so of course the PG would be better that the GL at infantry at T4. Versus Gaunts, IG, Sisters, Eldar, and Dark Eldar, the GL would perform better.

Re:IG Infantry squad mathhammer

Razerous — GMT

I dunno how you could format that better but I found that 10% useful as its just too difficult to find what you've put down. Sorry.

Re:IG Infantry squad mathhammer

Polonius — GMT

I made a few errors, notably I required a 50% chance to hit with frag grenades, making some of the GL math underestimated. In addition, for the final effeciency calculation I multiplied the AC kills by 6, when I already included the two shots. The new effeciency chart after 3 turns, including GEQs (T3, 5+ save) is as follows:

Three rounds of shooting: two @ >12", one at 24", adjusted for Get's Hot
Ork Ork ^^ MEQ MEQ^^ Term Term ^^ 2+/3++ Plague Plague ^^ Oblit Oblit ^^ DP DP^^
Basic 5.139 3.083 2.056 2.056 1.028 1.028 1.028 0.514 0.514 1.028 1.028 1.028 1.028 6.167 4.625
AC/GL 8.472 4.583 3.056 3.056 1.528 1.528 1.528 0.972 0.972 1.528 1.528 1.528 1.528 6.667 5.000
AC/PG 7.401 4.048 3.651 2.937 2.064 1.825 1.587 2.193 1.478 2.064 1.825 2.064 1.825 5.595 3.839

Perf of AC/PG over AC/GL 87.4% 88.3% 119.5% 96.1% 135.1% 119.5% 103.9% 225.5% 152.0% 135.1% 119.5% 135.1% 119.5% 83.9% 76.8%
Effeciency 75.7% 76.5% 103.6% 83.3% 117.1% 103.6% 90.0% 195.5% 131.8% 117.1% 103.6% 117.1% 103.6% 72.7% 66.5%

I'm not wild about trying to format this, but the gist is: when shooting at Orks, GEQs, and MEQs in cover the AC/GL is more effecient, while at anything else the AC/PG is more efficient. The lowest efficiency is against GEQs, the highest is against Plague Marines, with even terminators.

Keep in mind, however, that this effeciency assumed 2.5 hits per frag shot, a ratio that might be a big optimisitc. Recrunching the numbers at 1.5 hits per shot (god I love excel) gives you:

Three rounds of shooting: two @ >12", one at 24", adjusted for Get's Hot (1.5 Hits per Frag)
Ork Ork ^^ MEQ MEQ^^ Term Term ^^ 2+/3++ Plague Plague ^^ Oblit Oblit ^^ DP DP^^
Basic 5.139 3.083 2.056 2.056 1.028 1.028 1.028 0.514 0.514 1.028 1.028 1.028 1.028 6.167 4.625
AC/GL 7.806 4.250 2.833 2.833 1.417 1.417 1.417 0.944 0.944 1.417 1.417 1.472 1.472 6.000 4.500
AC/PG 7.401 4.048 3.651 2.937 2.064 1.825 1.587 2.193 1.478 2.064 1.825 2.064 1.825 5.595 3.839

Perf of AC/PG over AC/GL 94.8% 95.2% 128.9% 103.6% 145.7% 128.9% 112.0% 232.2% 156.5% 145.7% 128.9% 140.2% 124.0% 93.3% 85.3%
Effeciency 82.2% 82.5% 111.7% 89.8% 126.2% 111.7% 97.1% 201.2% 135.6% 126.2% 111.7% 121.5% 107.5% 80.8% 73.9%

Or the same split between good and bad, but it's closer than before.

What's surprising is how little difference plasma really makes of frag grenades against terminators.

Re:IG Infantry squad mathhammer

Polonius — GMT

Razerous wrote:I dunno how you could format that better but I found that 10% useful as its just too difficult to find what you've put down. Sorry.

I dig, but it's a spreadsheet, you know?

I've put it up on Google Documents so people can read it.

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=r_my36MyvqooHCVOB5O5LWQ

IG Infantry squad mathhammer

Tacobake — GMT

I am just going to ask, what do you think of Mortars? I was thinking squads of 30 with Mortars and Grenade Launchers to get 3x templates landing. Or even squads of 40 to get 4x. Twin-link (with orders) and I believe they re-roll the wounds.

IG Infantry squad mathhammer

Polonius — GMT

Tacobake wrote:I am just going to ask, what do you think of Mortars? I was thinking squads of 30 with Mortars and Grenade Launchers to get 3x templates landing. Or even squads of 40 to get 4x. Twin-link (with orders) and I believe they re-roll the wounds.

Mortars are a cheaper, less accurate but more flexible frag missile. If you like frag missiles, they're not awful, but keep in mind that a frag missile needs roughly two models per shot to do as much damage as a heavy bolter. That's not hard against hordes, but trickier against smaller squads.

Also, only template (flamer) weapons re-roll wounds, twin linked blasts simply re-roll scatter. In addition, only Bring it Down allows twin linking, and that can only target tanks and MCs.

IG Infantry squad mathhammer

Razerous — GMT

Polonius wrote:
Tacobake wrote:I am just going to ask, what do you think of Mortars? I was thinking squads of 30 with Mortars and Grenade Launchers to get 3x templates landing. Or even squads of 40 to get 4x. Twin-link (with orders) and I believe they re-roll the wounds.

Mortars are a cheaper, less accurate but more flexible frag missile. If you like frag missiles, they're not awful, but keep in mind that a frag missile needs roughly two models per shot to do as much damage as a heavy bolter. That's not hard against hordes, but trickier against smaller squads.

Also, only template (flamer) weapons re-roll wounds, twin linked blasts simply re-roll scatter. In addition, only Bring it Down allows twin linking, and that can only target tanks and MCs.

Agreed.

'On my target' or 'First rank fire, Second rank Fire!' will be the only orders you will use with mortar/GL teams. Either a re-roll on cover saves or more lasgun shots (or simply orders used more effectively elsewhere).

Id also suggest groups of three squads. If you plan to go infantry heavy - you leave yourself with two squads with can form a reasonable blob with heavier armements.

IG Infantry squad mathhammer

Tacobake — GMT

Ah ic, my bad. Honestly I think Autocannon/ Plasmagun is simply the way to go, unless you simply do not have the models. You should have template weapons anyway to stop your opponent from keeping his guys too close.

I will always like Grenade Launchers because they give you that ability to shoot from the hip.

IG Infantry squad mathhammer

Dakkadood — GMT

Please use some tables (spreadsheet program + paint), the current post is hardly readable.