http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/69.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net LC/SS. A captain RB/SS/meltabombs with command 2PF/SS, 2LC/SS. 3 Bike Squads (troops) 3 reg troopers/2 flamers, Sgt PS/MB, plus Attack bike/MM. I also have 2 Squads of 2 Melta bikes. The whole army can outflank. I have a few questions with this list.

1. I've read the rulebook and it doesn't have any restrictions on coming on the board (shooting/charging), if this is the case you can assault after coming on the board, correct?
2. I know people can deny flanks. How devestating is that when you can always deploy second? If you get first turn you don't have to declare reserves until deployment (i.e always go second).
3. Do failed Dangerous tests get Invuln saves? It says you cannot take armor or cover saves.

Anyone ever play a list similar, what were the pitfalls, ever try to hammer and anvil with 2 vindi's ( something I've considered)? Comments, criticisms?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/240915/727399.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/240915/727399.page GMT 1) you can assault after coming on.
2) its hard to completely cover one board edge. If you leave him unmolested he will do it but otherwise your safe.
3) yes

Generally, if you hold everything in reserve this way the enemy will just sit in the large gap in the middle of the table you cant hinder when you show up. This still gives them the advantage. Flanking with one or two units is good, flanking with the entire army...not so good.
I would leave at least half my army on the table in normal situations.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/240915/727520.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/240915/727520.page GMT
2. Well sure, if they don't know you are going to outflank everything then they obviously won't think about it, however if they have ever played against your army (or seen you play someone else), or they just see Khan and guess that outflanking is your plan, then they can easily avoid it, and you are left with your army coming in piecemeal (which is bad news), and possibly on the wrong side of the board (even worse news).

3. You got it, it specifically disallows Armor Saves (thus FNP), and Cover Saves, but you still get Invulnerable Saves against Dangerous Terrain.

As for the army, as I mentioned above, when you outflank you are extremely vulnerable to getting split up and having 1/3 of your army come in on the wrong side. Also, from my experience with Bike lists, you really want to keep the entire army together and not spread out and expose your weaker elements. When you outflank you are subject to the whim of the dice gods and your army will both enter on different sides of the battlefield and will come in a few at a time, making it impossible for you to stay together and hunt enemies as a group. If, for instance, you get 2 troop squads but no command squads on turn 2, and they come in on opposite sides of the board, you now have 1 squad vs. Half of your opponents army twice, so you lose both contests easily and are now out 2 troop units with basically nothing to show for it. All outflank really doesn't work out that well, unfortunately.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/240915/727527.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/240915/727527.page GMT MM, 1 AC, 5 SB, 3 TLHB and 20 bolter shots) shooting at him thanks to a miscalc. He survived with 3 of his squad and still took 3/4 of his squads points. I believe the problem with most outflank armies is similar to the Drop Pod armies, go big or go home. With so many units in Outflank I would be nearly guaranteed atleast 3-4 out of 7, granted it would be random. If I do only get 2 units then I just have to sweat it out until next turn. I'm sure that this list would not be tourney winning but man it would be fun to try. I am still in the middle of modeling my two command squads. Anyone have any suggestion for Khan?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/240915/727624.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/240915/727624.page GMT SM Bike list, so I'm familiar with the mobility of it, but there's still a limit to how fast they can go. Cover only provides some help, with the 5th Edition TLoS rules, unless you are playing on a board that is covered with huge rocks, even hiding behind cover the enemy will be able to see you and therefore shoot at you. When they do, sure you get a 4+ (or 3+) cover save and your 3+ armor saves, but you are still going to fail 1/3 of those on average. With an entire army shooting at 1 or two units while they try to hide and wait for the rest of your army to come in, it won't be that hard for your opponent to nuke one completely down.

Like I said, I play a bike army, so I'm fully aware of how ridiculously hard to kill those command squad units are, and they are the exceptions, but you aren't going to win the game with just them. Sure, they are tough to kill, but they aren't *that* tough, a lot of focus fire and some strong CC can drag them down.

In the end, as you said, it's all for fun. If you think the all outflank tactic is more fun then by all means, go with it. I'm just saying I would much prefer to just start my whole army on the board (everything hides behind the command squad for cover saves) and then Turbo-boost into my opponents face on turn 1, as opposed to coming in later and not even getting a full game of shooting.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/240915/727650.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/240915/727650.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/240915/727669.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/240915/727669.page GMT DS them to keep my opponent "honest." He has to choose whether to set up and defend against the incomnig bikes, or to deal with the terminators. Even when the termies get blasted away, I more often than not am able to get my bikes in where I need them.

YMMV, but all-bikes and outflank can work if you take the time/effort to set it up.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/240915/728555.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/240915/728555.page GMT DA geneseed. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/240915/728835.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/240915/728835.page GMT TH/SS termies coupled with vindicators in reserve to hop out where ever he is clumped might really punish him for trying to avoid the flanks.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/240915/732368.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/240915/732368.page GMT