Latest posts for the thread "Chimera spam?"

Chimera spam?

Avariel — GMT

I played against an interesting list at the local shop. Chimera spam.

2 CCS with 4 meltas in a Chimera, 2 Psyker Battle Squads in Chimeras, rest filled with Platoon Command Squad with 4 Flamer in Chimera and Infantry Squads with Auto cannon and Grenade launcher in Chimera. Ends up with like 15 Chimeras in 1750.

It was an objective game so I couldn't kill all those scoring units to win. I was playing my guard test list CCS with 4 melta, astropath, Psyker battle squad in chimera, inquisiter with 2 mystics 3 x 10 veterans w 3 melta gun, (1 in chimera 2 in valkyrie) 3 valkyrie vendetta, 2 leman russ executioner, 1 demolisher

Immolator spam seems to be a good list for Sisters so why not Chimera spam for Imperial Guard. The sheer number of scoring units in vehicles is tough to kill them all.

Chimera's can get a hull heavy flamer for close up and a turret multi laser for range. However they have av10 sides and can only move 6 and fire the heavy flamer.

Big issue here is you bleed kill points but immolator spam sisters bleeds kill points too.

What you think?

Chimera spam?

sourclams — GMT

Yes, Chimera spam is powerful. Just make a wall of tanks and roll forward until your adversaries are gone. Your big problem is going to be anti-AV14. I'd recommend meltaguns on at least a few PCS-es, or allied Sisters.

Re:Chimera spam?

Razerous — GMT

Leman russ spam. Infantry spam. Outflanking fast-moving vendettas. Will outrange most of your chimera armements all-day.

Chimera spam?

Uriels_Flame — GMT

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/240776.page

This wasn't exactly CH spam as he had 3 LR too, but about as close to what you're talking about I've played recently.

I wasn't happy.

Chimera spam?

extrenm(54) — GMT

I have been talking to a friend about chimera spam since we saw the new IG book. To be honest, chimera spam is what I think will change 40k. 15 chimeras is alot to kill, very difficult to do it while taking their return fire. What scares me, is that if someone built a list around the idea of pure chimera spam, you could take about 30 in an 2000 game. Now 30 chimeras puts out disgusting amount of fire power and is almost impossible to kill in even a 7 turn game. You could fill your deployment zone solid with chimeras and really ruin your opponents day.

Chimera spam?

bigtmac68 — GMT

I have seriously considered chim spam, its one of those armies that will get hammered by some armies, but will be almost unstoppable to most standard lists.

Traffic jams will be a big problem though with that many models on the table.

Chimera spam?

burb1996 — GMT

bigtmac68 wrote:I have seriously considered chim spam, its one of those armies that will get hammered by some armies, but will be almost unstoppable to most standard lists.

Traffic jams will be a big problem though with that many models on the table.

That is the biggest problem I have run into while trying this. Granted, it helps protect your side armor but getting everything situated is a pain.

Chimera spam?

wuestenfux — GMT

Indeed, Chimera spam could work. I played in a multi-battle at GW last weekend against such an army.
One third of the missions are kill point games. Last year, in the GT final, we played one of 5 games as kill point mission.

Chimera spam?

BoxANT — GMT

Chimera spam has the potential to really change the game. Many lists simply do not have enough anti tank to deal w/ all those tanks. However, since they have side AV10, it may make outflank/DS more important to counter.

Chimera spam?

Recklessfable — GMT

Assault armies with outflanking genestealers or snikkrot or (Oh yeah, Nob bikers) will multicharge this list like crazy.

It should be fun to see the a shift in "solutions" to this "problem". This game needed a light tank horde.

I probably won't play it, but I'd like to see it.

Chimera spam?

cypher — GMT

The ammount of tankshocks this army could put out would own nob bikers.
Eventually your gonna fail that check

Chimera spam?

bigtmac68 — GMT

In an army like this that kind of multi charge is much less of a threat. So Snikrot charges two or three chimeras, hell even for, even if he kills them all... who cares. I got 12 more and ol' snikey is now staring down the barrells of 60 to 120 lasgun shots, flamers and more.

The key vulnerabilities will be to outflanking shooting, mobile shooting, massed railgun or hydra fire, things along those lines .

Nob Bikers should not be a problem due to the presence of two PBS in the army, but Mech Battlewagon Orks with Koptaz should do fine.

I would not run pure chim spam, but chim hull spam could be interesting.

Say,

2 Melta CCS in chim
4 Melta Vets in chim
2 banwolves
2 devil dogs
2 hydras
2 hydras
2 hydras

16 av 12 hulls, 20 meltaguns, 2 chem cannons, 4 multi meltas, 12 TL Hydra Autocannons at 1850

Thats one hell of an SAFH and all of it in an armor shell. And works out to 17 kill points total which is not good but not that bad for a Mech list.

Chimera spam?

Recklessfable — GMT

Chimera spam?

Jokuhuna — GMT

bigtmac68 wrote:In an army like this that kind of multi charge is much less of a threat. So Snikrot charges two or three chimeras, hell even for, even if he kills them all... who cares. I got 12 more and ol' snikey is now staring down the barrells of 60 to 120 lasgun shots, flamers and more.

The key vulnerabilities will be to outflanking shooting, mobile shooting, massed railgun or hydra fire, things along those lines .

Nob Bikers should not be a problem due to the presence of two PBS in the army, but Mech Battlewagon Orks with Koptaz should do fine.

I would not run pure chim spam, but chim hull spam could be interesting.

Say,

2 Melta CCS in chim
4 Melta Vets in chim
2 banwolves
2 devil dogs
2 hydras
2 hydras
2 hydras

16 av 12 hulls, 20 meltaguns, 2 chem cannons, 4 multi meltas, 12 TL Hydra Autocannons at 1850

Thats one hell of an SAFH and all of it in an armor shell. And works out to 17 kill points total which is not good but not that bad for a Mech list.

I played quiete some games with this kind of army since the codex leak. But instead of Banewolfs I used Vendettas. The problem for me were MEQ. So now I dropped a few AV 12 hulls for Plasma and Executioner and that works quiete well. Either win or close draw.The only time I got tabled was agaisnt another guard army with Greynight Termis in Valkyres and bad luck.

But pure Chimera spam im not so sure, since you will have youre whole army in assault range on turn 2 and due to destroyed chimeras worthwhile targets for all classes of enemy weapons. Or you leave some behind but they are a waste then. 3 S6 shots for 155 points. Thats 2 Hydras or a Leman Russ.

Chimera spam?

Hollismason — GMT

Alot of marine players simply forget that their squads come with crack grenades so assaulting that is very viable especially since they will need to get in close.

Chimera spam?

Uriels_Flame — GMT

Gotta watch out for those "crack" grenades - silent butt deadly . . . .

Re:Chimera spam?

CKO — GMT

Chimera spam will not win by itself, the list will need some sort of support from different vehicles or infantry. Chimeltas will have a hard time against a simple 10 man tactical squad. A tact squad is capable of taking down the chimera and the squad inside. They can meltagun the side av 10, then charge the cargo. Chimelta spam wont work because you have to get upclose, and when that happens it is easy to take advantage of the side av of 10 or charge. The next major problem is that the cargo inside dies quickly. Chimera spam may be scary to us guard players but marines will gladly fight us in the midrange game.

Chimera spam?

Corpsman_of_Krieg — GMT

That's what makes PBS supporting units so scary -- they make Chimera spam ridiculously nasty.

"Oh, what's that? I only killed a few models in that squad? Well, that's no problem, 'cause ya see here I'm making them Ld2 for the rest of the turn. Bye now!"

Back up the Chimeras and PBS units with a couple Devildogs or Vendettas, and you're looking at a list that can react to enemy armor very easily, can shut down anything that has to close with their opponent to do damage (AKA every non-fearless assault army out there), and all the while maintain a resilient, uniform level of strength that simply cannot be overcome by any normal amount of firepower.

CK

Re:Chimera spam?

extrenm(54) — GMT

That's what makes PBS supporting units so scary -- they make Chimera spam ridiculously nasty.

"Oh, what's that? I only killed a few models in that squad? Well, that's no problem, 'cause ya see here I'm making them Ld2 for the rest of the turn. Bye now!"

Back up the Chimeras and PBS units with a couple Devildogs or Vendettas, and you're looking at a list that can react to enemy armor very easily, can shut down anything that has to close with their opponent to do damage (AKA every non-fearless assault army out there), and all the while maintain a resilient, uniform level of strength that simply cannot be overcome by any normal amount of firepower.

CK

Its true...if its supported well, you cannot effectively advance on chimera spam. I've tried, and will continue to try in the future, but its not looking good.

Chimera spam?

whitedragon — GMT

Some armies will laugh at the spam if not done correctly. Nob Bikers, for example, can spread out enough to effective attach as many tanks as they have models in the squad, with a fair chance of doing damage. Seer councils, (on bikes too!) are another good candidate that could make a devastating mech-multi-charge.

Units like Fire Dragons that come with melta bombs standard will have something else to do besides shoot.

Space Marines of all flavors now have Krak Grenades, and if they are Chaos Cult troops, they will be fearless as well and laugh at your tank shock.

All of the above will be equally terrible in a KP mission.

The real question is what is the perfect number of tanks/apc's that put out enough fire power to neutralize the enemy without having you vulnerable to bleeding KP's.

Chimera spam?

Corpsman_of_Krieg — GMT

Whitedragon, none of those things matter if you're fielding two full-size PBS units in Chimeras. Everything that isn't Fearless becomes Ld2, and everything that is gets tagged by an AP D6 Earthshaker cannon.

That's what makes Chimera spam so nasty when coupled with PBS units.

CK

Chimera spam?

Wehrkind — GMT

It should also be born in mind that cracking 2-3 chimeras isn't super easy, even with Melta bombs. Assuming they moved 6" you will need a 4+ to hit, and then a 2/3+ to glance/pen, and then a 5 or 6 to kill. That adds up to a lot of melta bombs needed to kill more than one chimmy for certain.
Nob claws help a little more, having more attacks, but 4+, 2+ (on one die) to pen and then 5+ to kill still requires ~14.5 attacks to kill 2 chimeras with average certainty. My math might be a little off, but with ideal results distribution (ie. you don't get 10 destroyed results on one tank) and 2 x 10 Bikers+Warboss units using only power klaws, you are looking at 12.7 chimera kills on average. That is a fair amount at first glance, but considering that usually biker nobz have big choppas and the like mixed in and you are not likely to get exactly one wrecked/destroyed result on each chimera, that isn't too exciting.

Even then, you still have to deal with the sqad inside poping out to hose you down next turn with various weapons fire.
Personally, I am excited to see how the Chimera spam armies work out. A light vehicle horde will be really neat to see, even if the answer is "more lootas".

Edit: Forgot melee attacks hit rear armor.

Chimera spam?

Hollismason — GMT

It breaks the game at 1500 ; higher you have some choices to deal with it but against a good guard player you wont do much as he will just frogjump his chimeras w/ smoke if he goes second then he can actually w/ Astropaths have a 2+ to roll onto the field and pop smoke.

First 6 move up give cover to back six while they pop smoke. Now you have to kill six vehicles with a 4+ invulnerable.

Its just borkem.

Add in Vendettas Outranging your troops with Lascannons etc.. you have something that is horrible to face. Then you got Veterans w/ Demo Charges and melta guns ; if the demo charge doesnt cover have it wont break the tank on a Chimera as it will be STR5 vs 12.

Edit:

3 Psyker squads in Chimeras are 160 points apiece. Not only does it give you template it gives you leader ship.

A base unit of Troops with Chimera is 110

CCS is the Same.

In 1500 you could have

2 CCS in Chimera

3 Pskyer

8 Troops

Chimera spam?

Shep — GMT

Recklessfable wrote:

Haha. Not laughing at you... laughing with you. As I have 200 of that same problem. It's looking to me like planetstrike might be our savior. PCS and CCS set up in bastions behind 30 man stubborn infantry squads with 3+ cover saves would be a difficult wall of meat to get around.

Back to the topic.

I don't think 15 chimeras would be significantly better than 4-7 chimeras and points spent on longer range killers. Someone earlier in the thread touched on the deployment problem. Traffic jam central, and denied flank takes a LOT of your passenger shooting out of the mix. 22 strength 6 hits aren't going to do much to most resilient armies, and fast vehicle movement blocking from piranhas and speeders will log jam the army really quick. (I can elaborate on that if need be)

I think IG can and should use fast vehicles (either the 'V' series or the dogs) to get around either significantly wide deployments that get refused flank against, or stacked vehicle deployments that get move-blocked by shooty armies.

edit to add... think of 15 chimeras like 180 boys. It was an idea that a lot of people threw out as a spam overloader, but spamming relatively short ranged things (not multi-lasers, but the riders of chimeras) to an extreme will have you stepping all over yourself while you try to come to grips with an enemy that is only engaging you on a limited front.

Chimera spam?

Alerian — GMT

Corpsman_of_Krieg wrote:Whitedragon, none of those things matter if you're fielding two full-size PBS units in Chimeras. Everything that isn't Fearless becomes Ld2, and everything that is gets tagged by an AP D6 Earthshaker cannon.

That's what makes Chimera spam so nasty when coupled with PBS units.

CK

Umm, you are wrong there.

First off, good luck getting much off with PBS against the Eldar that he mentioned. Testing on 3d6 is not fun for LD9...especially when the average role is 10.5, and you face perils (thus losing d3 psykers) everytime you role a 12 or higher.

Second, he did mention fearless units...again, PBS can't make them run.

Third, he mentioned SMs. Almost all good tourney builds now run a Libby, mostly because of the prevelance of Lash, but now to nerf PBS as well.

The only unit that White mentioned that PBS are actually good against is Nob bikers.

Chimera spam?

whitedragon — GMT

Alerian, thanks for posting, because I was wondering if anybody really understood what I posted.

I agree that it's a little iffy on the Nob Bikers, but with powerklaws and big choppas, a unit of Nob Bikers could easily multi-charge 7-11 chimeras and destroy a good number of them. Couple that with lootaz to neutralize the transports first, and you could be multi-charging their whole army.

As Shep pointed out, 15 Chimeras will have a really hard time downing even a single biker with just multi-lasers, so how are you even going to get them to take a morale check, Weaken Resolve not withstanding.

Chimera spam?

Corpsman_of_Krieg — GMT

@Alerian
Let me clarify. My previous comment was specifically with regard to Nob Bikers only. Now, to your comments:

First, unless the Eldar Codex says something to change this, Perils of the Warp occurs only when you roll double 1s or double 6s, making 3D6 only useful for stopping powers from being used, in which case the rest of the army shoots the unit(s) that are preventing you from using the 110 point units of PBS. Either way, no significant loss to the Guard when fighting Eldar (who pay about 2-3 times as much for their Serpents/Falcons + upgrades and goodies as Guard do for their Chimeras), as the horde of Chimeras and abundance of mid-strength firepower plays well without the PBS units.

Second, any army with a proclivity of Fearless units is instead going to be hammered by Soulstorm blasts all game. Just as devastating as Weaken Resolve, especially when half the shots will simply ignore Power Armor.

Third, whitedragon mentioned Space Marine Krak Grenades, not Librarians. You really want to get close to half-a-dozen Heavy Flamers? Be my guest. With regard to Librarians, you're dealing with a single W2 model that only has a slightly better than 50% chance at stopping a PBS unit. With two squads, you're likely to get one through, at which point you weaken resolve the Librarian's unit and then pop enough Marines to back them off. If they're close enough, you can run a Hellhound variant or Chimera down the board alongside them to escort them off the board.

You're not thinking synergistically, Alerian. No single piece of the Guard Codex made of win on its own, but when you combine the parts (PBS + Chimera Spam + Devildogs/Vendettas) you have a truly nasty force that can deal with all of the threats you mentioned.

@whitedragon:
If the Guard player is smart, he'll be screening 2 other Chimeras with every 1 that's on the frontline. I fielded an 1850 test list last week that consisted of a conservative 10 Chimeras and 2 Leman Russes that was only 4 Chimeras wide. The Guard opponent would have to be slowed in order to let you multi-charge 7-11 Chimeras. Seriously? Sorry, not happening. And the assaulting multiple disembarked squads? Again, if the Guard player has any brains, he'll obscure the lighter armor with either AV14 Russes or will cycle Chimeras in order to keep 4+ smoke in the front, requiring you to double your concentration of fire to maintain the same level of effectiveness.

If the Nob opponent is willing to get close with his Bikers (likely situation, since they're supposed to be aggressive), they'll get burninated by an asston of Hull Heavy Flamers and embarked Melta weapons (The Multilasers will just make the job easier by putting on a couple distributed wounds, letting the HFs and Meltas do the rest). The list I field has the ability to bring to bear 6 Heavy Flamers and 16 Meltaguns (8 at BS4 with "Fire on my Target!") to any target within 16" of any of my tanks thanks to shotgun envelopment -- sorry, but those Nob Bikers will simply not withstand that kind of firepower.

That, and the redundancy of two PBS units allows one to Weaken Resolve and the other to shoot them with a Str9 Large Blast. Synergistic choices such as the Leman Russ Eradicator also shuts down Nob Bikers, ignoring Cover Saves they may have otherwise relied on.

If you want to get really nasty, the Guard player could drop in Sly with a Demo charge, or Weaken Resolve the unit and then hit them with a Neural Shredder from a Callidus. I forsee that being a possible combo simply because it is effective against everything with a Leadership value, since the Neural Shredder doesn't care if you're fearless or not. Ld2 Fearless is still Ld2, which is Instant Death for those Nob Bikers! That 5+ Invulnerable Save won't save you now!

Overall, Chimera Spam by itself is not that scary, aside from the fact that it can be annoyingly hard to kill. Coupled with PBS units (a required selection, IMHO) in Chimeras, Devildogs or Medusas (with Bastione Breacher Rounds) or Vendettas, and quad-melta CCS units in Chimeras, however, and suddenly the Mechanized tank-horde becomes a heck of a lot more menacing.

CK

Re:Chimera spam?

Sliggoth — GMT

@ Corpsman
The lists in this thread have talked about running two PBS units in chimeras, that would make it at least 330 points of the army that a farseer (150ish points) is taking out of the game. And shooting the farseer isnt going to be terribly easy, since most eldar lists already protect their farseer. Rendering 330 points ineffective goes a long way to countering the cost of the eldar armor (which tends to cost a bit less than the russes do per unit).

For the chimera spam army the most important part of the game is likely going to be determining who gets the first turn. Traffic jams are going to be a problem under good circumstances, with a few key chimera stunned/ immobilized/ destroyed movement is going to be a nightmare. Fifteen to twenty tanks sounds like an unstoppable wave, until one realizes that choke points and battle damage will channel this force into a few waves. 10 chimeras and 2 russes in a 4 wide deployment works fine if you have the first move so that you can smoke. That same pattern if you go second is going to have serious problems. Now if you can play on boards that are very low on terrain all the time you may be able to avoid this, but dont count on it.

Granted the fast attack and heavy support options mentioned would help relieve some problems.... but once Devildogs/ Vendettas/ Russes start getting added in large numbers the list really isnt about chimeras any longer.

Some armies will have a great deal of trouble dealing with a horde of light tanks and a couple PBS units, but other armies will only have to change their deployments a bit. Might make some shooty armies a bit more popular again.

Sliggoth

Chimera spam?

whitedragon — GMT

Corpsman_of_Krieg wrote:
First, unless the Eldar Codex says something to change this, Perils of the Warp occurs only when you roll double 1s or double 6s, making 3D6 only useful for stopping powers from being used

The Eldar codex entry for the wargear Runes of Warding states that any roll on 3D6 of 12 or higher will cause a perils of the warp check.

Your other comments aren't really useful unless we talk about what lists we are taking exactly. If you are taking 15 Chimeras, you have very little points for much else. Even if a squad wrecked 5 or 6 of your chimeras and then was torched by meltas and heavy flamers, you just traded 5-6 KP for 1. Also don't forget how many of those squads shooting back may be pinned or falling back from 25% casaulties, as I believe now in 5th edition a morale check can be made in any phase not just the shooting phase.

As for space marines, I forgot to mention 2x 10 Thundershield Termies and Shrike, who will gladly laugh at all the return fire after they multi-trash several chimeras. You made a blanket statement about tac marines with Krak Grenades and 2W Librarians. Uhm, ALL space marines (with the exception of Templars and Thousand Sons) have all the grenades they could want now, so it could be a Chaos Cult army, a Blood Angels army, an Ultramarines army, or anything else. If they have a Dark Angels Librarian, they get a super psychic hood at LD10, and if they are chaos cult, they don't care about PBS because they are fearless, which you seem to be forgetting. Also, I'd trade a tac squad with grenades and a sergeant powerfist any day for 3-6 Chimeras in a KP game. Vindicators could be bad news too because of the big template and Ordnance. You might be able to even hit 3 tightly packed Chimeras in the side or rear with a decent Vindi shot, and even if it's half strenght, it's S5 + 2D6 and pick the highest. That doesn't hurt either.

Now if you are talking 6-7 Chimeras (2 for PBS, 3 for troops, 1-2 for whatever else) and then some other guard firepower, then you may have found the magic combo in SOME circumstances. Taking 15 Chimeras though seems to be a recipe for disaster against the more hardcore lists, and even a spamming list isn't an autowin.

Chimera spam?

extrenm(54) — GMT

@ Sliggoth,
You have some good points.
About the farseer and the PBS. Yes, he could shut down their psychic powers, but those chimeras they are do not stop working. So you are right that the farseer can cancel them out, but its not quite 330 points. those 55 point chimeras can still fire all day long, even if the PBS inside have too much of a headache to do anything.

Also, while early wrecked or immobilized results could be a problem, dont forget that these wrecked tanks will also serve as a screen for the tanks behind and make them more resilient. Also, if you are planning to sit and shoot, what problems does a blob of tanks have? Their guns can see over each other and still lay down quite alot of fire at range.
You claim that some armies will only have to switch up deployment a bit to counter chimera spam lists. While I agree in a sense, that Chimera spam lists are not unbeatable, could you elaborate on this? I am not quite sure what you mean here.

Chimera spam?

Alerian — GMT

Corpsman_of_Krieg wrote:@Alerian
Let me clarify. My previous comment was specifically with regard to Nob Bikers only.

First, that is not what you said...you refered to "all" of the units that Whitedragon mentioned.

Corpsman_of_Krieg wrote: First, unless the Eldar Codex says something to change this, Perils of the Warp occurs only when you roll double 1s or double 6s, making 3D6 only useful for stopping powers from being used, in which case the rest of the army shoots the unit(s) that are preventing you from using the 110 point units of PBS. Either way, no significant loss to the Guard when fighting Eldar (who pay about 2-3 times as much for their Serpents/Falcons + upgrades and goodies as Guard do for their Chimeras), as the horde of Chimeras and abundance of mid-strength firepower plays well without the PBS units.

The Eldar dex most certainly states that you take perils on any roles of 12 or greater in the rules for RoW. Please, make sure you know your facts before disagreeing. Also, don't get too excited about how easy Eldar are to beat with Chimera spam, as the Eldar can spam mobile S6/S8 weapons like no one's business. So, if you are going to play the light armor/mid-strenght weapons game, you might want to pick on an army that doesn't do it better than IG. I don't see Chimera spam even standing a chance to Mechdar, do to the Eldar's Energy fields/holofields, higher mobility, greater speed, and better vehicle armament. Sure, guard has lots of nasty things to kill the Eldar all day long, but Chimera spam and PBS are some of their worst options when fighting space elves.

Corpsman_of_Krieg wrote: You're not thinking synergistically, Alerian. No single piece of the Guard Codex made of win on its own, but when you combine the parts (PBS + Chimera Spam + Devildogs/Vendettas) you have a truly nasty force that can deal with all of the threats you mentioned.

LOL, I am an Eldar tourney player, the only way I can think is "synergistically". I admit that the combo you listed is effective against certain builds; however, it is far from unbeatable, and some of its counters have already been pointed out you. I also feel that you also need to have a better understanding of the metagame. As more and more armies go mech (thanks to things like Lash and PBS), spamming light vehicles will become more and more useless, as everyone is already starting to load up on anti-tank.

Edit: ...and no, your combo does not make a "truly nasty force that can deal with all of the threats I mentioned"...as I have already pointed out how certain units/combos will destroy such a list.

Chimera spam?

Corpsman_of_Krieg — GMT

@Sliggoth:
Extrenm(54) already addressed the fact that 110 of those 330 points is actually still quite effective.

Traffic jams will not be a problem if the Chimera list is supported correctly. Taking a pair of CCS units in Chimeras with Astropath and Officer of the Fleet in each means that if the Guard player loses first turn, they can simply start off the board and bring in everything on a 2+ turn 2. While packing in 12 tanks to less than a quarter of the table can be problematic, if you're only doing it when you claim first turn then you have the freedom to space out a bit before potentially losing casualties.

I probably should have been more articulate in my explanation of what I think is powerful. Pure Chimera spam is IMHO not a very competitive force, as it lacks the high-strength and low-AP weapons necessary to kill tanks (CCS and PCS units are not tank hunters with any amount of longevity once in the open).

Chimera units should be the meat and potatoes of the list, for sure, but when you couple them with Devildogs, Russes, Demolishers, Medusas, Hydras, etc., you end up fielding an armored list that plays well off each unit's strengths while bolstering weaknesses.

@whitedragon:
I addressed what I feel is a good combination of Chimeras and other vehicles in my comments to Sliggoth.

I'd like to see a unit consistently Melta 5-6 Chimeras to death in a game. That would have to be one hell of an expensive unit, or the Guard player would have to be ignoring it.

20 Thundershield Termies + Shrike is just shy of 1000 points. The Marine player is not going to have a whole ton of space for much else at your standard 1850, which means that when those units deepstrike in (in nice blast shaped circles) they are in for enough shots from all of that armor that you're going to lose the bulk of one squad in a single turn of shooting. More if the Guard player has Mystics (a likely, and useful selection for Mech Guard). 30+Multilaser shots, 6 Heavy Flamer Templates, 8+ Meltaguns, and Meltacannons/Battlecannons/Medusa Cannons will make even the 3++ useless from such a weight of fire.

You seem to have misread. I said Space Marine Krak Grenades, not Tac Marines. I'm pretty sure that statement covers everything that is a Space Marine with a Krak Grenade, not just the ridiculously misconstrued view of a Tac Marine. Dark Angels Librarians are a weak HQ choice in a weak Codex. I don't see Dark Angels super Psychic Hoods being all that threatening.

Oh, and I didn't forget about the fact that Cult troops are Fearless. Do you even know what the Psyker Battle Squad's powers are? Fearless units get hit by SOULSTORM (which is not the same as Weaken Resolve), which I stated in my previous post.

I don't know where you get to thinking that a single Tactical Squad will reliably kill 2-3 Chimeras per game. 9 Multilaser shots, 3 Heavy Flamer template, and the contents of the three Chimeras might not seem like much, but they will win out in a shooting match with a Tactical Squad.

Vindicators will not be a significant risk, due to the fact that in order to shoot their Demolisher Cannon, they put themselves in striking distance of quad-melta CCS units in Chimeras and Devildogs (Vendettas would solve this problem before it arose), both of which can reliably bring it down or at the very least keep it from shooting (unless it's a Templar Vindicator, since they can still take Power of the Machine Spirit).

As mentioned before, pure Chimera spam is relatively resilient, but in turn does not kill much. If you use the Chimeras as the core, and build upon them with all the aforementioned aspects available, the synergy the list will establish makes Mech Guard quite the contender.

@Extrenm(54):
I would venture to say that the best counter to Mech Guard would be another Mech list or a Fearless SAFH that spams anti-tank weapons. It would be interesting to see a Mechanized Noise Marine SAFH bring all those Blastmasters to bear in a shootour, backed up by Land Raiders and/or Obliterators.

CK

Automatically Appended Next Post:

First, that is not what you said...you refered to "all" of the units that Whitedragon mentioned.

Apparently the idea of a statement that means something it was not intended to is not connecting for you. I referred to "all," but meant "Nob Bikers." It was a miscommunication on my part that I tried to correct, but apparently didn't, since you brought it up again.

The Eldar dex most certainly states that you take perils on any roles of 12 or greater in the rules for RoW. Please, make sure you know your facts before disagreeing.

This changes the PBS role from continually trying (and most likely failing) to pass Psychic Tests to simply not trying at all. Excuse me for not owning every Codex and knowing them all inside out.

Also, don't get too excited about how easy Eldar are to beat with Chimera spam, as the Eldar can spam mobile S6/S8 weapons like no one's business. So, if you are going to play the light armor/mid-strenght weapons game, you might want to pick on an army that doesn't do it better than IG.

I'm well aware that Mechdar spam Str6 and Str8 weapons. I wouldn't be so certain that they can do it better than the Guard though, since Eldar armor is inherently more expensive and relies on positioning much more than Chimeras. It's the "Quality vs Quantity" debate.

Chimera spam (once again) is, in my mind, not pure Chimeras. I see them as a core that you add anti-tank and antipersonnel strengths to. PBS units may be ineffective against Eldar, but they are nasty against most other armies, Fearless or otherwise.

Though I said it was nasty, I never said it was unbeatable. I feel that you need better understand that your metagame is going to be different from my metagame. We don't go up against the same kinds of opponents, and therefore have different understandings of what is strong in our area and what is not.

Loading up on light armor will be effective regardless of whether or not your opponent has responded to the overall change -- it will be varying degrees of effectiveness, but effective nonetheless. Lists won't shift 180 degrees, since there are still footslogging armies that must be contended with, so a balance will eventually me met.

CK

Chimera spam?

cypher — GMT

I would imagine either hoard orcs (5+ cover save for all) or razorback spam would own this list. They both have more than enough tank killing potential and both are fairly competitive in the meta environment.

Re:Chimera spam?

extrenm(54) — GMT

I would imagine either hoard orcs (5+ cover save for all) or razorback spam would own this list. They both have more than enough tank killing potential and both are fairly competitive in the meta environment

I am not sure about razorback spam, but I am pretty sure that horde orks would struggle against that List CK has been describing. I am not saying they could not beat it, but it would be a tough match up.

Re:Chimera spam?

Sliggoth — GMT

Ahhh, but the chimeras dont really see over the wrecks or the immoblised tanks very well at all. A swarm of chimeras arent going to be worth much stuck behind a mass of wrecked/ immoblised/ stunned tanks, its only the few heavies in the list that can still operate at all well at long range. In the lists mentioned it seems that about half the chimera's weapons are changed to flamers to deal with cc problems...not going to do much in a traffic jam. And a chimera with a load of worthless PBS certainly shouldnt be given room over a chimera with a load of useful troops. So yes the PBS chimeras really are a 330 point write off, at least for much of anything except doing a long flank run away from anyplace a useful unit would want to go.

Its the cumbersome mass of the tanks that helps make some of the component bits useless. There is only going to be room for so many vehicles on the table, in the areas that are important.

If the table is large and empty of terrain then extra chimeras are going to be able to get into the fight in a timely manner. Just dont count on that happening often.

Sliggoth

Chimera spam?

Corpsman_of_Krieg — GMT

Put two Chimeras on a table, with one behind the other. When the Chimeras are staggered, they can both see forward quite easily. Do this with multiple chimeras to understand what the two-ranked gunline will look like.

Sliggoth, the Chimeras are not impotent, which means that the two 110-point Psyker Battle Squads are the write-off (I'd hardly call them worthless), not the 110 points of Chimeras. In the rare situations where PBS units are worse than a Guard Infantry Squad, I still don't think it merits dropping them out for regular Guardsmen. PBS units are the most potent single infantry squad in the Guard army when it comes to shooting.

As for this traffic jam you keep talking about, I don't see the problem. Two CCS (mandatory choices for Mechanized Guard IMO) with two Astropaths means you can leave any jammed up models off the table and drive them onto your long table edge with a 2+ on turn 2. This can open up an entire flank to combat where the enemy would otherwise only need to worry about a blob of tanks in a corner.

CK

Chimera spam?

whitedragon — GMT

Corpsman_of_Krieg wrote:@I'd like to see a unit consistently Melta 5-6 Chimeras to death in a game. That would have to be one hell of an expensive unit, or the Guard player would have to be ignoring it.

20 Thundershield Termies + Shrike is just shy of 1000 points. The Marine player is not going to have a whole ton of space for much else at your standard 1850, which means that when those units deepstrike in (in nice blast shaped circles) they are in for enough shots from all of that armor that you're going to lose the bulk of one squad in a single turn of shooting. More if the Guard player has Mystics (a likely, and useful selection for Mech Guard). 30+Multilaser shots, 6 Heavy Flamer Templates, 8+ Meltaguns, and Meltacannons/Battlecannons/Medusa Cannons will make even the 3++ useless from such a weight of fire.

Your failure to grasp basic concepts of Warhammer 40,000 5th edition make it hard to constantly refute you. First, a biker nob squad will easily be able to multi-charge and destroy 5-6 chimeras per turn. A unit of fire dragons charging could reliably take 2-3 or more depending on if the unit is large and if your chimeras didn't move. Marines with Krak grenades could do similar. Berzerkers multi-charging could do a number with S5 for furious charge and the champs S9 powerfist. Eldar Seer Councils will easily take on just as many, if not more with their witchblades. Then you have alot of pinned troops, and shooting through cover and wreckage, that will be marginally effective depending on what you're shooting at, because you either don't cause enough damage to matter (Seer Council, Nob Bikers, Blood Crushers) or you wipe the unit out so hard and they trade KP's in their favor. (Fire Dragons, Marines)

Now on to your second point. No one running shrike with 20 termies is going to deepstrike them, EVER, so everything you said is moot. Shrike gives them fleet, and one squad will infiltrate. So if they take the first turn, you could get charged with 10 termies at least. With their big bases and thunderhammers, they are going to put a helluva multi-charge wallop on your mechanized units, and anything they hit will be shaken at best.

So please, come back with some real rebuttals when you know what you are talking about.

Chimera spam?

Corpsman_of_Krieg — GMT

Your failure to grasp basic concepts of Warhammer 40,000 5th edition make it hard to constantly refute you. First, a biker nob squad will easily be able to multi-charge and destroy 5-6 chimeras per turn.

Real rebuttals? Try making some fething sense first. A Chimera is 4 inches wide. 7-11 of them (which is your original estimate before the application of your revisionist thinking) lined up side by side is, 28-44 inches across! Do you know how limited the situations are where you'll be able to perfectly charge across the table like that?

A unit of fire dragons charging could reliably take 2-3 or more depending on if the unit is large and if your chimeras didn't move.

When would the Chimeras not move if a Tank-Hunting unit was poised to assault them? They're not going to be hopping out of a Serpent/Falcon and assaulting in the same turn, which means they're going to have limited assault options if they want to actually survive long enough to kill something.

Same with Marines and Berzerkers, who will not be assaulting rapidly unless they come flying out of a Land Raider. Both vaporize from the combined fire of a Mech Guard list.

In fact, your whole concept of Multi-charging fails if the Company Command Squads are taking Astropaths, as the Guard player can start off the table and move as he likes.

Now on to your second point. No one running shrike with 20 termies is going to deepstrike them, EVER, so everything you said is moot. Shrike gives them fleet, and one squad will infiltrate. So if they take the first turn, you could get charged with 10 termies at least. With their big bases and thunderhammers, they are going to put a helluva multi-charge wallop on your mechanized units, and anything they hit will be shaken at best.

You know what? Yes, the TH/SS Termies with Shrike won't Deep Strike. I was mistaken. It does not change the fact that they will not get the multicharge you speak of, since the Guard player's tactics would change.

If this situation happens, the Guard player starts off the board. Melta-packing units move on, torch and melta the Terminators nearest to their table edge, followed by long-range fire from everything else.

In any case, I'm getting tired of repeating the same statements that you have chosen to ignore. It is clear that we are not on the same wavelength regarding our views of certain units and army builds. I'm not changing your viewpoints, and you sure as hell aren't changing mine. I'm happy to just leave it at that.

CK

Re:Chimera spam?

Sliggoth — GMT

Part of the problem may be that the chimeras cant have both types of weapons loads. Either they are going to have the ability to deal a lot of short range flamer/ melta death or they are going to be able to deal a lot of long range fire power. It certainly is possible to give them a mix of weapons types ... but then they also certainly arent going to be good at both.

The side armor 10 is going to be a huge problem against many shooty armies, smoke will help there but only for one turn, and not at all if you go second.

The armor 10 is also a problem against cc armies, altho I do think it would be hard to assault too many chimera with one unit if the chimeras are placed well. Even against say....hmm, 3 chimeras; dont count on getting good firing arcs next shooting phase. All the occupants of destroyed chimeras are going to be on the field now, as well as some wrecks. Its going to be a real mess, with movement contricted a great deal.

Im not saying the idea is hopeless, far from it. But it is also by no means going to be an easy win.

Sliggoth

Chimera spam?

Jokuhuna — GMT

In my expirience its not that hard to feed a Chimera to Nob bikers. After they pop it I block them off with the unit inside so they need to charge them, or drive the long way around.
I have seen alot of illegal multi assaulting with bike units. You realy need to follow the assault sequence for them. If the opponent is doing it exactly by RAW the multi charges aren't that scary anymore.

Re:Chimera spam?

BoxANT — GMT

Sliggoth wrote:Part of the problem may be that the chimeras cant have both types of weapons loads. Either they are going to have the ability to deal a lot of short range flamer/ melta death or they are going to be able to deal a lot of long range fire power. It certainly is possible to give them a mix of weapons types ... but then they also certainly arent going to be good at both.

I think turret Multilaser & hull Flamer gives the Chimera the best options. You have the Multi to hit Rhinos at a distance, and the flamer to hit infantry up close.

I still have a soft spot for ML/HB/HS, still use them for units like PBS that are staying back, but ML/HF is awesome stuff.

Chimera spam?

Recklessfable — GMT

So I ran 2000 points with 4 Eradicators, 2 Hellhounds, 4 Vets in Chims, 1 CCS chim and 2 Psy Chims. Dawn of War, Command and Conquer. I was tuned to kill Orks and he was tuned to kill tanks, though I'm not sure his was a perfect build.

That is 9 AV12s and 4 AV14s. My main problem was that when the game started, I rolled on in a line roughly four and a half feet wide but had major problems with terrain on turn 2. I was actually lucky about some of the damage results because I didn't have room to disembark thanks to the length of the Chims.

He was able to stun me quite a bit and get commandos, that Vulcha Guy and some trukk borne tank bustas into my lines. The star of the game for me was the Hellhounds, who kept reaching over stunned vehicles to kill the squads that were harassing them.

In the end I won, but just barely. I managed to break the Boyz holding his objective using the Nova Cannons and the Psykers to make them run away. The battle for my objective was attrition that I finally won because I got vehicles in to block Thracka's Battlewagon. The main problem was I kept getting funneled between buildings and when the lead element was stunned, I was delayed a turn. If the damage rolls had been Immobilized, I might not have won.

If it had been Killpoints, I would have slaughtered him, but I'm thinking in big games I might need Valks just to get out of my own way.

Chimera spam?

Avariel — GMT

Chimera Spam is really good in objective missions but not so good in kill points. I had a rematch against the same player with kill points and won.

Chimera spam is a really tough nut to crack in objective missions with an all comers IG list. They just have 2 many Chimeras and sometimes you wreck one and they hide behind it on an objective which makes it difficult to dislodge the unit as it is difficult to get a shot at them. I can fly behind them with my Valkyries and drop my Vets to kill them but then they get shot up.

Chimera spam is not without its short comings but I expect to see the list around.

All Chimeras probably is not the best way to go but gives you a ton of scoring units which wins you objective missions.

Just running Mostly Chimeras with like 3 Valkyries seems pretty mean too. Although Leman Russ Executioners are just great. Expensive but really good at killing Marines or any infantry for that matter.