<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "A Little Ramble about Space Marines"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/31.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net A Little Ramble about Space Marines

After talking to my friend about the Horus Heresy, I began thinking about the Imperium. If you ask me, the Horus Heresy was the beginning of the downfall of the Space Marine. The Horus Heresy showed the Imperium that their champions of The Emperor, The Space Marines, were easily susceptible to corruption, and they must have realized that relying on them alone was futile. Therefore, they took away the "power" of the Space Marine Legions, splintering them into chapters and creating other fighting forces to replace or keep an eye on the Space Marines. This now took away the might of the legions and may have done more acutal harm than good.


The Traitor Marines did almost the same thing, albeit in a different manner. Rather than unite under one vision of conquest, they splintered themselves into bickering warbands, each following their own twisted version of the Chaos God's will. Without the leadership of Horus, the Chaos Marines simply fell apart.


Now, the Space Marines, the "Glory of The Emperor/ Legions of Horus" are now locked in perhaps a never-ending cycle to destroy each other. Perhaps a lesson that states that even superhuman killing machines can run into roadblocks.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/244070/774216.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/244070/774216.page GMT Re:A Little Ramble about Space Marines

"Easily Susceptible" may not be as true to the 41st millenium as it was to the marines leading up to the Heresy, as the Chaos Gods were such a new and unknown thing to humanity then, but it still happens. Marines go rogue, and join the Red Corsairs often enough for it to be a major problem.

And it's not just the two sides killing eachother either. There's a lot of infighting between Imperial Space Marines as well. Not just Chaos Space Marines. Chapters have been known to commonly engage eachother over blood-feuds that've lasted millenia. Hell, just look at the Dark Angels and the Space Wolves. Prime example of Imperial Infighting between Chapters right there.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/244070/774235.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/244070/774235.page GMT A Little Ramble about Space Marines IMHO, but the thing to remember is that the 40K universe was designed to be the way it is in terms of background and gameplay.

That being said, the 40K universe is also a very realistic one when you consider our world as it is now, we still have rascism (though its xenoism in 40K), people still fear what they don't understand, people still instill their will upon others, the poor still suffer from the rich and powerful. All these elements make for a realistic and believable 40K universe.

The Marines got over confident in their abilities and in some cases were tricked and fooled to believe certain things, proving that although superhuman, they are still suseptable to many of normal human tendancies.

The legions were deemed far to dangerous to remain that large as 1 huge army amongst a few that goes rampant would be incredibly damaging whereas a small chapter amongst thousands going rogue is more managable.

Personally I think the most damaging aspect of the Marines and to a "slightly" lesser extent IG, is their xenoism, If the Imperium was not so xenophobic they could potentially Ally with several other races against Chaos, Ork, Necrons etc. Eldar and Tau are the only likely candidates but even then, they have their own issues that would prevent such a thing even if the Imperium wasn't so xenoistic. Eldar are far to stuck up their own bum and Tau would try to subvert them to the greater good. If such an alliance was to happen and the pact not broken, then the Imperium would be able to inflict more damage on their foes and once all is done after thousands of years, they could then turn on their allies if they so choose (though I think we all know they we break the alliance the moment it suited them anyway, on all side)

((just in case xenoism is not actually a word, its meant in the same context as Rascism, sexism, etc and refers to hate of another species over your own))]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/244070/779164.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/244070/779164.page GMT Re:A Little Ramble about Space Marines http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/244070/779335.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/244070/779335.page GMT Re:A Little Ramble about Space Marines http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/244070/779742.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/244070/779742.page GMT Re:A Little Ramble about Space Marines 40k are not the humans-by-any-other-forehead found in Star Trek. They are actually, literally alien: their motives and purposes are truly divergent from those of humanity. Xenos and humanity cannot be reconciled.

If two enemies are fighting only to find a third, more threatening enemy attack them both it is certainly smart to join together for the moment to defeat the newcomer. Some of you seem to assume that the natural consequence is that those two enemies would continue to stand together against other potential third parties. You forget, however, that there was a good reason they were fighting in the first place.

As to Space Marines: Even when they were organized into vast Legions, Space Marines Chapters were hardly monolithic. Indeed, even all the Legions together constituted a small force relative to the scope of the Great Crusade. But they were never intended to be monolithic. That is why there were twenty Primarchs. Perhaps the Emperor never intended them to be scattered and so develop such divergent personalities (we will probably never know) but it stands to reason that they were not intended to be mere extensions of the Emperor's own personality. The Chapters, in other words, were not supposed to be merely the most efficient instrument of the Emperor's will but rather individual, personalized, and competitive. Why else give over Legions to the Primarchs, whom the Emperor clearly knew (at least upon meeting them) were all quite different, and then picking a favorite? Finally, Space Marines are not fighting each other anymore--rituals aside. So why all this hate? Sounds like you want Space Marine Chapters to fit snuggly into the realm of the bureaucratic authority like IG regiments. Never gonna happen.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/244070/780898.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/244070/780898.page GMT A Little Ramble about Space Marines
Manchu wrote:Allying with certain xenos is obviously not unthinkable. In a similar vein, certain abhumans are tolerated inside the ranks of the Guard. But it is pretty naive to assert that the Imperium would profit in the long term from formal alliances with aliens.

On the temporary alliances I do not doubt it and I should have made mention to those as they are littered throughout the fluff. What I was refering to however was that a long standing alliance is not possible in the 40K universe due to the Imperiums xenophobic nature.

The short alliances that have been formed have always been short lasting and usually results in one of the factions breaking it at first opportunity, and lets face it, its usually the Marines

Manchu wrote:Finally, Space Marines are not fighting each other anymore--rituals aside. So why all this hate?

I think the reason to all the hate is still down to the fact that despite being superhuman, it appears they still have the same flaws and weaknesses as us lesser human when you look deep into it, they are just less apparent.

Many people just can't let go, long after the battle is won. Just think of all the vendeta's in our History. The amount of times we hold grudges which are long since forgotten and past on to our children to continue the fight. The same would apply for Marines but will be a little more on a epic scale.

Of course, going back on course a little to the OP post, I think we can all agree that we would do things differently if we had been in charge, but then again, we all have hindsight.

Cryonicleech wrote:
The Traitor Marines did almost the same thing, albeit in a different manner. Rather than unite under one vision of conquest, they splintered themselves into bickering warbands, each following their own twisted version of the Chaos God's will.

I think the reason the chaos splintered for one is that no one likes to share power, so everyone tries to get themselves to the position of top dog thinking that only they should be the rightful ruler. Just look at how hard it is for an Ork Warlord to stay in control.

The only way the Imperium could get themselves out of this never ending cycle of destruction is to become less rigid in their ways, form long standing alliances and even be more open minded and less fearful with looking into old and new technology. Though I think we can all agree that fluff-wise and logically, this will never happen

@Cryonicleech
Good choice of subject for a ramble, most enjoyable]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/244070/781368.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/244070/781368.page GMT A Little Ramble about Space Marines
hellsguardian316 wrote:The only way the Imperium could get themselves out of this never ending cycle of destruction is to become less rigid in their ways, form long standing alliances and even be more open minded and less fearful with looking into old and new technology. Though I think we can all agree that fluff-wise and logically, this will never happen


Agreed that it will never happen. But even if it did it would only muddle things worse, not improve the situation.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/244070/783143.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/244070/783143.page GMT A Little Ramble about Space Marines
Xenoism aside, if these loyalist chapters were brought back to the strength they once had, it would be a tremendous advantage to the Imperium, IMHO.


As for the Chaos Marines, it's somewhat obvious that if they banned together there would be little they could crush. Of course, you could point at the Black Crusades, etc. But these were not akin to the old legions of the Horus Heresy. For Chaos to gain true power, they must unite the old legions and call forth the Primarchs. The Primarchs must stop being content with ruling over the Warp. Why they actually are is beyond me as well.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/244070/783322.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/244070/783322.page GMT A Little Ramble about Space Marines
Cryonicleech wrote:I also suggested that the 9 Loyalist Chapters: Dark Angels, Ultramarines, Space Wolves, Salamanders, Imperial Fists, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, Blood Angels and White Scars should be re-made into Legions. They've obviously proven themselves as Loyal to the Emperor and should be given the old power they once had.


I like that idea a lot. Whether the Codex-adherent chapters would go for it is an excellent point for debate.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/244070/783325.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/244070/783325.page GMT A Little Ramble about Space Marines
Manchu wrote:Agreed that it will never happen. But even if it did it would only muddle things worse, not improve the situation.

I'm genuinely interested to hear a more detail view of your thoughts on that Manchu. Are you thinking along the lines that the Imperium researching into new technology will open them up more to Heresy or similar?

cryonicleech wrote:Xenoism aside, if these loyalist chapters were brought back to the strength they once had, it would be a tremendous advantage to the Imperium

The Marines being limited to 1000 marines is both their greatest strength and also their greatest weakness.

I believe Roubute Gullium(whatever the spelling is) decreed that all legions be split into chapters to prevent another Heresy and all those that refused were threatened with being branded heretics.

I also believe i have read official(and i use that term loosely) fluff that said that several chapter refuse to tell the imperium of their precise numbers and how many companies they have operating leading to the belief that they have a force far in excess of 1000. I think this fluff is in the prevous marine codex and refering to Black Templar, but I honestly can't recall exactly where I read it.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/244070/783547.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/244070/783547.page GMT A Little Ramble about Space Marines http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/244070/783613.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/244070/783613.page GMT A Little Ramble about Space Marines
Officially, they have 1000 guys, and their not supposed to have more. Unoficially, this is one of the reasons that the templars are at odds with the inquisition.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/244070/783637.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/244070/783637.page GMT A Little Ramble about Space Marines
Now that I know where the reference came from I can read it again

Its because no one knows where all the Black Templar companies are at one time that they can't get a precise number of how many templars there are.

But until myself or someone can post the refrence then I can't prove what I've said, lol

EDIT: edited crappy spelling]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/244070/783652.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/244070/783652.page GMT A Little Ramble about Space Marines BTs had more then 1000 marines.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/244070/783664.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/244070/783664.page GMT A Little Ramble about Space Marines
hellsguardian316 wrote:
Manchu wrote:Agreed that it will never happen. But even if it did it would only muddle things worse, not improve the situation.

I'm genuinely interested to hear a more detail view of your thoughts on that Manchu. Are you thinking along the lines that the Imperium researching into new technology will open them up more to Heresy or similar?


Fraternizing with xenos is an easy route to heresy for an individual or even an entire planet. I was referring more generally to the mistake of glossing over the differences between xenos and humanity. As I mentioned before, the goals of aliens are at cross-purposes with the goals of humanity as directed by the vision of the Emperor. Heresy would only be the first symptom of this irreconcilability.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/244070/784481.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/244070/784481.page GMT Re:A Little Ramble about Space Marines http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/244070/786760.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/244070/786760.page GMT A Little Ramble about Space Marines
Liberal tolerance for diversity and respect of the right to hold opinions different from ones own are of course (in the real world) not only necessary they are actually beneficial. Xenophillia (in the sense of being open to new experiences or ideas) in the real world is a requirement to being a well rounded adult.

In the world of 40k, xenophillia (or even the briefest of improper thoughts) can be the gateway to literal daemonic possession and the death of a world, a sector, or all of the galaxy.

In such a world, the travesties of the =I= are not only understandable, they're necessary. Our liberal values have no place in the Imperium, and neither do xenos or heretics.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/244070/786782.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/244070/786782.page GMT A Little Ramble about Space Marines
Doctor Optimal wrote:In the world of 40k, xenophillia (or even the briefest of improper thoughts) can be the gateway to literal daemonic possession and the death of a world, a sector, or all of the galaxy.


Well put. Exactly my point.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/244070/786789.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/244070/786789.page GMT Re:A Little Ramble about Space Marines 40K was set around the same theme, it would feel old and recycled. By following true to this form, it's setting itself apart in a unique way.

I'd prefer "Death to the Xenos!" over "The Eldar need our assistance!" any day.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/244070/787829.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/244070/787829.page GMT Re:A Little Ramble about Space Marines
metallifan wrote:I'd prefer "Death to the Xenos!" over "The Eldar need our assistance!" any day.


Hilarious! Can you imagine a campaign to save starving tyranids?

Seriously, though, I completely agree with you that so much of sci-fi is already used as a platform to urge fans on to greater tolerance/acceptance of cultural difference. 40k, on the other hand, speaks to the deeply ingrained suspicion that such difference is actually a very accurate sign of danger. It's reverse-refreshing, I guess. Just can't let it color one's IRL views.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/244070/788008.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/244070/788008.page GMT Re:A Little Ramble about Space Marines
It's reverse-refreshing, I guess. Just can't let it color one's IRL views.


Unless those views are on Xenos. Treacherous, vile creatures. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/244070/795636.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/244070/795636.page GMT Re:A Little Ramble about Space Marines lol . And as stated before its different form other sci-fi themes ie Star Wars, Mass Effect, Star Trek, etc. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/244070/795840.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/244070/795840.page GMT A Little Ramble about Space Marines

So yeah Ultramarines have a huge fighting force in the range of seriously millions; granted that is just normal humans but they also have marines as well. This was in the very old 2nd edition Marine Codex where it talks about Ultramar.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/244070/801684.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/244070/801684.page GMT