<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Confirming some rules about Eldrad."]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/15.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Confirming some rules about Eldrad.
However the questions are the following:
1.) How many attacks (not on the charge,) does Eldrad get? He's got a pistol, the witchblade, and the staff and a base attack of 1. I'm not sure if it's 3 (for 2 extra weapons) or 2 (because you can only choose to use one special weapons (Either Witchblade or Staff) per turn...

2.) Regarding his special power "Divination," am I allowed to say... first decide to deploy on the board. opponent deploys, and then decide to take my models and move them into reserve? Similarly, am I allowed to move models that are in reserve onto the board? My question for this is because it states "No unit may be moved outside of it's deployment zone." Is reserve part of the "deployment zone?"
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249802/864346.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249802/864346.page GMT Re:Confirming some rules about Eldrad. BGB under "Two different special weapons." No bonus attack at all I'm afraid

2) Divination states he may reposition, not deploy or un-deploy. Units that are in reserve are not yet deployed, they deploy when they become available. Units that are already on the table are already deployed and unless the rules state otherwise (Swooping Hawks) cannot re-enter a non-deployed status.

I hope that's helpful.

Edit: corrected BGB page number.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249802/864372.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249802/864372.page GMT Confirming some rules about Eldrad.
Kouzuki wrote:
1.) How many attacks (not on the charge,) does Eldrad get? He's got a pistol, the witchblade, and the staff and a base attack of 1. I'm not sure if it's 3 (for 2 extra weapons) or 2 (because you can only choose to use one special weapons (Either Witchblade or Staff) per turn...


He has a witchblade which doesn't change his number of attacks, but then has a pistol which is an additional close combat weapon so he would have one more attack as a result. Any other weapons beyond that will give him no further bonus. Two attacks.

Kouzuki wrote:
2.) Regarding his special power "Divination," am I allowed to say... first decide to deploy on the board. opponent deploys, and then decide to take my models and move them into reserve? Similarly, am I allowed to move models that are in reserve onto the board? My question for this is because it states "No unit may be moved outside of it's deployment zone." Is reserve part of the "deployment zone?"


I would interpret it as being only allowed to move the models that are presently in the deployment zone which I believe to be the area designated for you to deploy in based on the game type. I do not think you could move additional models into it that are not already in it, nor could you take them out of it (or off of it in this case).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249802/864398.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249802/864398.page GMT Confirming some rules about Eldrad. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249802/864420.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249802/864420.page GMT Confirming some rules about Eldrad.
Omega_Warlord wrote:A witchblade is a special close combat weapon, as is the staff of Ulthamar. Two different special weapons: "...they never get the bonus attack for using two weapons (such is the penalty for wielding too many complex weapons!)."


Do you know the page number in the BGB that states this? I was trying to find it the other day to prove to my friend that he wouldn't get an extra attack in a situation similar to this.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249802/864424.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249802/864424.page GMT Confirming some rules about Eldrad. pg. 42 (corrected on previous post) bottom right hand side under heading "Two different special weapons"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249802/864435.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249802/864435.page GMT Confirming some rules about Eldrad.
Omega_Warlord wrote:Sure, pg. 42 (corrected on previous post) bottom right hand side under heading "Two different special weapons"


but when Eldrad is not using "Two different special weapons" and using a pistol and X he gains an extra attack.

You only fight with 2 weapons if you have more then 2 a choice must be made as to what weapons are used.

People who claim that page 35's "All engaged models with fight in this turns assault phase with their full number of attacks and use any special close combat attacks they have" means that you must use a special weapon. They are ignoring that a special weapon =/= special attack.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249802/864491.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249802/864491.page GMT Confirming some rules about Eldrad. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249802/864502.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249802/864502.page GMT Confirming some rules about Eldrad.
Majesticgoat wrote:I always presumed that it was talking about a situation where they only had two special weapons and no basic close combat weapon. An example being that they are trying to simultaneously effectively use them together which is not possible (as you can elect to only use the special bonus' of one), but in this case I imagined Eldrad could decidedly use his witchblade with the close combat pistol to a higher degree off effectiveness if he elected to, or use the pistol with the staff which would fit into the constraints of 'A normal and a special weapon'.


You are correctly

he gets 2 attacks when not in CC 1 base +1 for 2 CC

he can use pistol/witchblade or pistol/staff

I normally use pistol/witch vs tanks and pistol/staff vs infantry.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249802/864545.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249802/864545.page GMT Re:Confirming some rules about Eldrad.
What if I have a five different infiltrated units? Could I use Divination to move them somewhere else? Like to my deployment zone or to the opposite side of his deployment zone after my opponent reacts to me placing them pretty close to his guys by placing all his men facing mine ready to thwart my charge?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249802/864555.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249802/864555.page GMT Re:Confirming some rules about Eldrad.
Typeline wrote:I have a related Divination question.

What if I have a five different infiltrated units? Could I use Divination to move them somewhere else? Like to my deployment zone or to the opposite side of his deployment zone after my opponent reacts to me placing them pretty close to his guys by placing all his men facing mine ready to thwart my charge?


Roll find out how many units you can move (D3+1) and move them where you'd be allowed to move them. Infiltrators could be moved almost any where (so long as greater then 18", 12" if no LOS to enemies). Any one else would have to redeploy in their usual deployment zone]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249802/864561.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249802/864561.page GMT Re:Confirming some rules about Eldrad.
Tri wrote:
Typeline wrote:I have a related Divination question.

What if I have a five different infiltrated units? Could I use Divination to move them somewhere else? Like to my deployment zone or to the opposite side of his deployment zone after my opponent reacts to me placing them pretty close to his guys by placing all his men facing mine ready to thwart my charge?


Roll find out how many units you can move (D3+1) and move them where you'd be allowed to move them. Infiltrators could be moved almost any where (so long as greater then 18", 12" if no LOS to enemies). Any one else would have to redeploy in their usual deployment zone


Awesome, thanks for the halp.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249802/864564.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249802/864564.page GMT Re:Confirming some rules about Eldrad.
Tri wrote:
Typeline wrote:I have a related Divination question.

What if I have a five different infiltrated units? Could I use Divination to move them somewhere else? Like to my deployment zone or to the opposite side of his deployment zone after my opponent reacts to me placing them pretty close to his guys by placing all his men facing mine ready to thwart my charge?


Roll find out how many units you can move (D3+1) and move them where you'd be allowed to move them. Infiltrators could be moved almost any where (so long as greater then 18", 12" if no LOS to enemies). Any one else would have to redeploy in their usual deployment zone

Aren't infiltrators deployed 'outside the deployment zone' and so unable to be redeployed? (except perhaps moved back into the deployment zone?).

EDIT: Don't have the Eldar 'dex so I'm just curious.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249802/864611.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249802/864611.page GMT Re:Confirming some rules about Eldrad.
unistoo wrote:
Tri wrote:
Typeline wrote:I have a related Divination question.

What if I have a five different infiltrated units? Could I use Divination to move them somewhere else? Like to my deployment zone or to the opposite side of his deployment zone after my opponent reacts to me placing them pretty close to his guys by placing all his men facing mine ready to thwart my charge?


Roll find out how many units you can move (D3+1) and move them where you'd be allowed to move them. Infiltrators could be moved almost any where (so long as greater then 18", 12" if no LOS to enemies). Any one else would have to redeploy in their usual deployment zone

Aren't infiltrators deployed 'outside the deployment zone' and so unable to be redeployed? (except perhaps moved back into the deployment zone?).

EDIT: Don't have the Eldar 'dex so I'm just curious.


why yes they are placed after deployment but Eldrads redeployment rule happens before the start of the game so the infiltrators would have been place and could be moved]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249802/864614.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249802/864614.page GMT Re:Confirming some rules about Eldrad.
Tri wrote:why yes they are placed after deployment but Eldrads redeployment rule happens before the start of the game so the infiltrators would have been place and could be moved

I understand that part, but the OP quoted text which seems to disallow units outside the deployment zone to be moved with this rule, or am I misunderstanding?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249802/864647.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249802/864647.page GMT Confirming some rules about Eldrad. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249802/864652.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249802/864652.page GMT Re:Confirming some rules about Eldrad. per se? Either way I guess the RAI seems pretty clear: You can't use this power to move a unit to a position it couldn't legally be deployed in normally.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249802/864690.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249802/864690.page GMT Re:Confirming some rules about Eldrad. RAI Eldrad can probably redeploy infiltrators, but if we go by the letter of the RAW then he cannot move any unit outside of the eldar deployment zone. This technically means that he cant move infiltrators that have been placed outside of the eldar deployment zone at all, and that he cant move other infiltrators (who might have been placed inside the zone) outside of the eldar deployment zone.

Infiltrators arent given a deployment zone, they just have a distance that they have to be placed from enemy units. So that means that eldrad cant move them unfortunately.

Since infiltrators are placed last there shouldnt be too many occasions to even want to redeploy them tho, only if both sides have infiltrators and you went first with them should it even come up.


Sliggoth
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249802/864717.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249802/864717.page GMT Confirming some rules about Eldrad.
Tri wrote:
Omega_Warlord wrote:Sure, pg. 42 (corrected on previous post) bottom right hand side under heading "Two different special weapons"


but when Eldrad is not using "Two different special weapons" and using a pistol and X he gains an extra attack.

You only fight with 2 weapons if you have more then 2 a choice must be made as to what weapons are used.

People who claim that page 35's "All engaged models with fight in this turns assault phase with their full number of attacks and use any special close combat attacks they have" means that you must use a special weapon. They are ignoring that a special weapon =/= special attack.


Doesn't matter what he's "using" other than that he has to choose which special weapon to use. And in that act of choosing, that means the two different special weapon rule kicks in. As long as he is equipped with two different special close combat weapons, the rule applies.

FIGHTING WITH TWO SINGLE-HANDED WEAPONS
Some models are equipped with two single-handed weapons they can use in close combat, with the rules given below for the different possible combinations. Of course, if a model is using a two-handed close combat weapon (such as a rifle’s butt or a two-handed battle axe), it may not use it together with another weapon.
Then:
Two different special weapons
When it is their turn to attack, these models must choose which weapon to use that turn, but they never get the bonus attack for using two weapons (such is the penalty for wielding too many complex weapons!).

He is equipped with two different special close combat weapons, so he "never" gets the +1. Never means never. Also applies to Calgar and the Eversor and others.
As for the must use a special close combat weapon/attack question from page 35. I refer you to the main rules FAQ:
Page 42 – ‘A normal and a special weapon’, first paragraph.
The second sentence should be changed to:
All of their attacks, including the bonus attack, use the special weapon’s bonuses and penalties.

I'd say that pretty much means that yes, you must use the special close combat weapon/attack if you are equipped with one]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249802/866397.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249802/866397.page GMT Confirming some rules about Eldrad.
don_mondo wrote:
Doesn't matter what he's "using" other than that he has to choose which special weapon to use. And in that act of choosing, that means the two different special weapon rule kicks in. As long as he is equipped with two different special close combat weapons, the rule applies.

FIGHTING WITH TWO SINGLE-HANDED WEAPONS
Some models are equipped with two single-handed weapons they can use in close combat, with the rules given below for the different possible combinations. Of course, if a model is using a two-handed close combat weapon (such as a rifle’s butt or a two-handed battle axe), it may not use it together with another weapon.
Then:
Two different special weapons
When it is their turn to attack, these models must choose which weapon to use that turn, but they never get the bonus attack for using two weapons (such is the penalty for wielding too many complex weapons!).

He is equipped with two different special close combat weapons, so he "never" gets the +1. Never means never. Also applies to Calgar and the Eversor and others.
As for the must use a special close combat weapon/attack question from page 35. I refer you to the main rules FAQ:
Page 42 – ‘A normal and a special weapon’, first paragraph.
The second sentence should be changed to:
All of their attacks, including the bonus attack, use the special weapon’s bonuses and penalties.

I'd say that pretty much means that yes, you must use the special close combat weapon/attack if you are equipped with one


Ignoring "possible combinations"? Fighting with 2 single hand weapons only works if you pick 2 weapons and do what it says on that entry. If your not fighting with 2 special CC weapons you can never get "Two different special weapons"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249802/866409.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249802/866409.page GMT Re:Confirming some rules about Eldrad.
A short version:

Wielding does not mean carrying. Wielding is actually employing the weapons. IF the model has to count all the weapons that it possesses and doesnt get to choose which two weapons to use in a given cc, then the rules quoted do not apply because it doesnt have two weapons.

Pg 42 Fighting with two single-handed weapons......the model has three single handed weapons if you are counting both of his special weapons and his pistol, so this section cannot be applied to the model. Using this line of reasoning gives you no option to ignore the pistol so this rules section does not apply.

Pg 37 under number of attacks describes the situation for eldrad: "Models with more than two weapons gain no additional benefit - you only get one extra attack, even if you have more than two weapons."


Pg 35 Some confusion occurs when people mix up special attacks (such as the tyranid bio plasm attack) with special weapons. The rule requiring a model to use all of its special attacks means just that...attacks.

So in short form thats why Calgar can use his two power fists and ignore his power weapon, and eldrad can use one of his special weapons and his pistol.


Sliggoth

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249802/866433.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249802/866433.page GMT Confirming some rules about Eldrad. RAW. No +1 attack. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249802/866439.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249802/866439.page GMT Confirming some rules about Eldrad.
don_mondo wrote:Again, combinations don't matter, what he picks to fight with doesn't matter (other than the fact that he has to pick shows that the two different special weapons rule is in effect!). All that matters is that he is equipped with two different special weapons and hence can "never" get the +1. Key word being "never". But I realize that this makes Eldar and Marine players cry a lot cause it takes an attack away from Calgar and Eldrad, so I seldom push it. But RAW. No +1 attack.


You never push it because its wrong.
You can only use 2 weapons.
You pick which 2 weapons you use if the model has more then 2 weapons.
You look up what that combination gives you.
You ignore sections that have nothing to do with the weapon combination you've chosen. (why because your not using them)

Or by you interpretation of RAW a model with 2 pistals and 2 power weapons would get 3 bonus attacks. 1 for having two normal CCW, 1 for having 2 same special ccw and 1 for have a special and a normal ccw.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249802/866488.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249802/866488.page GMT Confirming some rules about Eldrad. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249802/866529.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249802/866529.page GMT Confirming some rules about Eldrad.
Let's put it this way. What rule allows you to pick which of your two special weapons you want to use? The two spe3cial weapons rule. And what does the rest of that particular rule say? Something about "never" gets +1 attack for two weapons........ To do it the way you want, we'd have to say that two different rules are in effect at the same time. The two different special weapons rules which declares you pick which one you want to use and the special plus ccw rule which gives +1 attack. Sorry, only one rule can be in effect. And since you're having to choose which special weapon you want to use, guess which special rule it has to be?! Again, you keep pushing "use" and the combination, neither of which matters once you enter the two special weapons and having to choose one of them arena. Once you reach that stage, ie having to choose one of your two special weapons, you are locked into the two special weapons rule.

As for your last line, do NOT put words in my mouth. That's BS and you are more than aware of it. I've said nothing that would support such a ludicrous statement, but your stance that two different rules are in effect at the same time would support that, wouldn't it? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249802/866531.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249802/866531.page GMT Re:Confirming some rules about Eldrad. RAW. Two means two, it simply does not mean three, four or twelve. Two different rules are NOT in effect, we are just following RAW.


Read the thread on Calgar if you want a more in depth analysis of this whole process. Calgar was in the title iirc, so it should pop up on search easily enough.

The rule on pg 42 says fighting with two diff special weapons, and disallows the bonus attack for that.

The rule on pg 37 says that models with more than two weapons get one bonus attack.


So, since the models in question have more than two weapons by raw its a simple answer.




The only time that fighting with two diff special weapons applies is if indeed a model has only two special weapons. Sticking with Eldar, Karandas is a good example of a model with this since he has a scorpions claw as well as a scorpion chainsword.



Sliggoth]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249802/866602.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249802/866602.page GMT Re:Confirming some rules about Eldrad. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/90/240925.page
I think Yakface say it best

Yakface wrote:
The rules for fighting with two single-handed weapons on page 42 of the rulebook *ONLY* work if you assume that they refer to the combinations that the model is able to choose to utilize in that phase.

Why do I say that?

Because the list of combinations on page 42 of the rulebook is not exhaustive. For example, Marneus Calgar actually has THREE special weapons (two powerfists and a power weapon). Eldrad has two special weapons and one normal close combat weapon.

If you want to try to claim that these rules dictate how the model is forced to make his attacks, then the entire system breaks down because there are no rules for models with 3 special weapons or models with two special weapons and one normal weapon.

The only way the rules function as written is if you assume that the player controlling the model gets to choose which two weapons his model is going to use and then consult the rules for fighting with two single-handed weapons to see how those weapons work together.


So ultimately we have one interpretation in which the rules do not work at all and then we have another interpretation that works just fine. As you can't play with the former why is it worth even arguing about?

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249802/866724.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249802/866724.page GMT Confirming some rules about Eldrad. IMO, once you get to a point where you are having to choose between special close combat weapons, then that rule kicks in and the "never" applies. Obviously, others disagree.

As an aside, Marneus Calgar only has two special weapons, one of which counts as a pair of power fists.............]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249802/866925.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249802/866925.page GMT Re:Confirming some rules about Eldrad.

And again, choosing between two special weapons does not make the fighting with two weapons rule kick in. The model chooses to fight with one regular weapon and then s]chooses between two special weapons. At this point it still has 3 weapons in the mix, right up until one special weapon is picked.

There is never a point that the model has only two weapons that are both special weapons. The RAW is quite clear, two special weapons is all that is covered by the rule. Three weapons is NOT covered by this rule so it has absolutely no bearing on Calgar or Eldrad.


Unless you can somehow explain how this rule applies in some way?


Sliggoth]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249802/868102.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249802/868102.page GMT