Latest posts for the thread "Does anyone actually use those ultramarine special characters?"

Does anyone actually use those ultramarine special characters?

Canonness Rory — GMT

Besides Calgar, Tellion, and Sicarius, does anyone actually use the ultramarine special characters like the chaplain or the librarian?

Does anyone actually use those ultramarine special characters?

GeneralRetreat — GMT

Heck yes.

All depends on the points value for me. I find the Chaplain and Librarian great efficient characters below 1000 points, and save the big guys for the big games.

Only one I haven't tried yet is a Master of the Forge, and I hear he's quite popular, too.

Does anyone actually use those ultramarine special characters?

Volkan — GMT

Cassius seems like a beast on the cheap, 125 points gets you a chappy that has a master crafted combi flamer that has hellfire shells, toughness 6, feel no pain and he still gets a bolt pistol for the extra attack in CC.

Tigurius seems expensive. I can see him as useful in a force that uses a lot of deep striking or reserves. Its nice that he has all of the psychic powers but 230 points for a model with W2,I4 and a no invulnerable save seems like a liability.

Does anyone actually use those ultramarine special characters?

drummerholt1234 — GMT

Ortan Cassius is just a beast. For 125 pts you get a T6 FNP character with a 3+/4++ save.

Does anyone actually use those ultramarine special characters?

Alerian — GMT

Cassius is just a beast...I like to think of him as the SM version of the Eldar Avatar...that can be hidden in a squad no less!

Does anyone actually use those ultramarine special characters?

Sanctjud — GMT

I use a Vanilla Captain on a bike to get Bikes as scoring. I don't run a command squad on bikes nor ass temies in a LRC, so no use for Khan.

What's so good with Cassius?

The only thing he can do is Absorb one str 8+ weapon without instant gib.
He's still just 2 wounds, he doesn't get to help out a squad with his T6 as it's majority toughness anyway.
No option for a bike or jump pack.

@Volkan
@drummerholt1234
Do we really need to be told what gear/abilities he has... those of us with the codex can read it.

My 7 Cents.

Does anyone actually use those ultramarine special characters?

Canonness Rory — GMT

Ok, so cassius is a good option for a chaplain, what about Tigirius or Chronus, do people use them?

Does anyone actually use those ultramarine special characters?

drummerholt1234 — GMT

@Sanctjud

Did you not just do the same thing...

she can read the codex so she knows about bikes as scoring units because of a bike captain... We just gave our opinion and why...

And just a little more on Cassius:

1. He give reroll hit on the charge as well as fearless to the unit he is with.
2. T6 is way better than T4 and hard as hell. He is as tough as a carnifex or most other MC's plus feel no pain.
3. He has a flamer shot as well as hellfire rounds.

Re:Does anyone actually use those ultramarine special characters?

Canonness Rory — GMT

she can read the codex so she knows about bikes as scoring units because of a bike captain... We just gave our opinion and why...

FTFY

Does anyone actually use those ultramarine special characters?

drummerholt1234 — GMT

@canonness rory

Chronus is a waste of points and an extra kill point. Don't take him.

Tigirius on the other hand can be a good choice. He is a support unit. You don't have to pick and choose psychic powers and can just use the ones that will benefit you the best in the game. The reroll on reserves can help as well if you run a drop pod/deep strike , outflanking, or other general reserve armies.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Canonness Rory wrote:
she can read the codex so she knows about bikes as scoring units because of a bike captain... We just gave our opinion and why...

FTFY

Sorry fixed it

Does anyone actually use those ultramarine special characters?

Sanctjud — GMT

Cassius is only good if you are using him on foot/in a rhino/razorback squad or in a landraider.

And even then, he's pretty meh the stuff he does.
I personally would rather save the 25 points.

Tiggy is just too expensive for what he brings, and no inv save outside of using a power to get one.

Chronus is a luxury, generally you want your vehicles as cheap as you can get them.
_____________________

@drummerholt1234.
Funny I did do the same thing, but not the wholesale slapping abilities/points/gear.
Chassius does do fearless and rr, but so does a reg. chappy.
THe toughness is only good in one or two occations, in which ONLY 2 wounds makes one use limited.
FNP is nice for absoring the small arms, but you can only allocate so many shots on him.

The gun is cool, but not too unique.

My 7 Cents.

Does anyone actually use those ultramarine special characters?

Alerian — GMT

Cassius is a beast assaulting out of a LRC/LRR. He is meant to lead assault units, plain and simple.

You have to get past his T6/FNP to kill him in CC, while he is leading assault termies that are fearless and re-roll hits on the turn that they charge. Plus, his hellfire rounds/combi-flamer hamke him way better than a normal chappie. 25 points for +2 to Tough, FNP, a combiflamer, and Hellfire rounds...yes please!

Also, you said that he only good on foot or in a transport...where else would he be?

Does anyone actually use those ultramarine special characters?

Sanctjud — GMT

@Alerian:
I was alluding to reg. chappies who can get jump packs and bikes, to reinforce the notion he only applies to foot/rhino/LR/pod sort of delivery systems.

As for his defensive qualities, the 2 wounds is a downer on the whole package.

Hellfire rounds don't matter as much, you will be charging not rapidfiring most likely.
The combi-flamer is nice, but not always a good idea in terms of an assaulty unit to use.

His defensive qualities are nice all-round, in combat fists are coming his way are blunted a bit. He won't be instant killed but it's still only 2 wounds, and FNP is out of the picture vs. the fist, while the 'to wound' bonus for T6 is lost on str 8.

Fearless and RR to hit are no different from a normal chappy.
In my experience, those 25 ish points are important to me to fit in an addition squad of "x,y,z".

My 7 Cents.

Does anyone actually use those ultramarine special characters?

Alerian — GMT

I understand what you are saying about Jump packs and bikes for other chappies; however, once you do that they cost about the same as Cassius.

I am not saying that he is the end all of uber cool for SMs. I am just saying that for his price he outshines other chappie choices.

Does he belong in every list? No way. But, he does make a really nice addition to a Mech assaulty list. This is even better out of a LRC, because as the one assaulting, you can make sure that TH/SS termies (and not Cassius) are in btb with the opposing PF, thus forcing your opponent to hit Cassisus with weaker blows that T6 and FNP easily shrug off.

Does anyone actually use those ultramarine special characters?

Sanctjud — GMT

Well, lets just say jump pack then.
It makes the reg. chappy close to Cassius, but it allows him to keep up with assault marines.... sort of the bread and better for some lists.

Cassius can't do that. He's nice, but limited is all I'm saying.

Which is what you are saying at the same time. You are more positive, while I'm more of a downer I guess.

My 7 Cents.

Does anyone actually use those ultramarine special characters?

GeneralRetreat — GMT

I spent some time trying to work Chronus into my lists, too, but I came to the same conclusion. Just not worth the points.

The general wisdom if you use him is to get him in a tank that most benefits from BS5 -- something non-twin-linked.

The good old Dakka Predator comes to mind. 6 HB shots and 2 AC shots that will hit on 2s.

Also, for transport destruction, I was thinking a Predator with Autocannon turret/Lascannon Sponsons, or even the old Tri-Las Annihilator, since even that TL Turret can miss. Of course, then you're looking at a 200+ point tank that can give up 2 KP to a single AV13 penetrating shot.

Intriguing, but not worth it.

However, I've always wanted to buy up a bunch more Predators to make that Predator Assassin Squadron for Apocolypse. If I did that, Chronus would have to be hanging out in the Command Tank, because that just drips awesome all over the place.

Does anyone actually use those ultramarine special characters?

Canonness Rory — GMT

Couldn't you put him in a land raider? the crusader and all it's shots comes to mind, with BS5 you'll be missing almost none of those 9 million shots per turn you get. He also lets the crew ignore shaken and stunned results IIRC, which is handy for something like the crusader who's job is to get into combat ASAP.

Does anyone actually use those ultramarine special characters?

Sanctjud — GMT

Ass termies in a LRC is a big basket already.

Why pay 65+a handful of points when you could just pay 10+a handful of points to do the exact same thing in terms of getting them into combat?

The bolters and asscannon are already TL...the only thing he'd help out fully would be the MM, but that's just more points on top of more points.

I don't like chronos cause he doesn't do anything completely unique.....like .....I don'know.... he's an expensive Daemonic Possession/Targetting array.

If he did something to the actual survivability of the vehicle he'd have something going for him.

Otherwise he's a luxury.

My 7 Cents.

Does anyone actually use those ultramarine special characters?

GeneralRetreat — GMT

You can get Extra Armor if you're worried about Stunned results, and actually, I'd say the Crusader is the least effective place for him.

Every single gun except the Pintle Mounted Multi-Melta is already twin-linked.

Hitting on 2's (with Chronus' BS5 gift) doesn't change much if you're already re-rolling failures.

Hitting on 2's changes a LOT if you aren't re-rolling.

Does anyone actually use those ultramarine special characters?

Canonness Rory — GMT

TL BS5 is essentially BS10, which means you will fail 1/36 shots, compared to 1/6, that is a pretty big change IMO.

Does anyone actually use those ultramarine special characters?

GeneralRetreat — GMT

/facepalm

Simple math here, guys.

Normal To Hit BS4- 66%
TL To Hit BS4 - 88%

Normal To Hit BS5 - 83.3%
TL To Hit BS5 - 94%

66% to 83% = 17% increase
88% to 94% = 6% increase

17% > 6%

Very simple math there guys. Increasing the BS of a non-TL shot is a greater benefit than increasing the BS of a TL shot.

When you look at what Chronus does, you need to look at how much he _improves_ the unit if you want a real measure of efficiency to investment.

Does anyone actually use those ultramarine special characters?

Jackmojo — GMT

Yeah, the best tank to put him on (from a biggest benefit standpoint), is unfortunately the tank mostly prized for its bargain price, the dakka pred.

Jack

Does anyone actually use those ultramarine special characters?

Tri — GMT

Most special characters are better value then there regular counter part.

Does anyone actually use those ultramarine special characters?

Hollismason — GMT

No one likes Sicarius ? or whatever his spelling is.

Army wide Leadership 10 ; Combat Tactics; Gives a Squad a veteran skill.

Feel no pain ; Invulnerable ; Plasma gun ; Tempest Blade that insta kills.

Does anyone actually use those ultramarine special characters?

Canonness Rory — GMT

GeneralRetreat wrote:/facepalm

Simple math here, guys.

[deleted for length]

Very simple math there guys. Increasing the BS of a non-TL shot is a greater benefit than increasing the BS of a TL shot.

When you look at what Chronus does, you need to look at how much he _improves_ the unit if you want a real measure of efficiency to investment.

Congrats, you can do math, but you don't understand basic logic.

Does anyone actually use those ultramarine special characters?

Lordhat — GMT

Chronus would be worth his points if he (and his special rule) was BS6. Then not only would the Tank hit on 2+, but it would get re-rolls at what is effectively BS 1 as well.

Does anyone actually use those ultramarine special characters?

Canonness Rory — GMT

That would get messy with twin-linking.

Does anyone actually use those ultramarine special characters?

Lordhat — GMT

Not really.... you can only ever re-roll a die once.

EDIT: And after looking at the rule on pg. 18, the TL negates the re-roll of BS 6+ anyway, so not nearly as messy as one would think.

Does anyone actually use those ultramarine special characters?

Canonness Rory — GMT

Exactly, BS6 is such a small increase, Twin-linking at BS6 would be exactly the same as BS5. Not to mention another 1/6 chance to hit means pretty much nothing, I dont think adding 1BS would solve anything.

Does anyone actually use those ultramarine special characters?

Lordhat — GMT

Yeah well it's already been established that Chronus is best placed on non TL'd guns (Dakka Pred) in which case, for the same points BS 6 would be make him worth it...

Does anyone actually use those ultramarine special characters?

Octavius Widowmaker — GMT

Is it a house rule that you count chronus as a extra kill point?he is an upgrade for a tank not an extra character

Does anyone actually use those ultramarine special characters?

Canonness Rory — GMT

It should be noted that a predator with lascannon sponsons and an autocannon turret is a great tank, that still benefits from chronus.

and IMO Chronus is best placed on tanks with as many shots as possible, even if they are twin-linked, or a tank that really hurts when it doesn't hit stuff, like las preds.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Octavius Widowmaker wrote:Is it a house rule that you count chronus as a extra kill point?he is an upgrade for a tank not an extra character

Read his rules.

Does anyone actually use those ultramarine special characters?

GeneralRetreat — GMT

To answer a previous poster who isn't just here to troll:

Sicarious is awesome. He's my standby character, the true center of my force in most games. He's got to be the most versatile character in the SM book, maybe in the entire game.

I can't wait to hear what negative comment Rory will come up with just for the heck of it, but before you listen to that droll diatribe, I urge you to check out some of my battle reports from a while back on this forum if you want to see Sicarious in action.

I actually made my Ultramarines Second Company with a home-made Captain Sicarious long before the rules came out for him. When I opened the new codex and read through everything in the pre-release copy at my FLGS, I had them put me down for a Sicarious model right away. I figured he would fly off the shelves because it seems like he's every single thing an SM player would want in an HQ and more. Suprisingly enough, he didn't catch on well in my area at first. I've played my Demi-Company a few times in the local area, and every time I've suprised someone with how this "mediocre" character performs.

Of course, I'm a sneaky tactician, too. I make the most out of his skill granting ability, and people have come to hate that instead of one trick, my army has a choice of four.

I started a thread here in the Tactics section to discuss Unit Synergy with Sicarious and his granted skill, but trolls inevitably brought it down with all the
"ZOMG WAI U LEIK SiCARIOUs, LAEIK, FO REALZ?"

I got tired of it and walked away for the time being. There were a couple neat tricks thrown out, my favorite being Outflanking a tactical squad in a Rhino with all-melta loadout for late-game armor breaking and base capturing. Counter-attack has also served me well against other Marine opponents, but not as well as Tank Hunters has done with my Lascannon/Meltagun/C-Melta/PF squad.

Needless to say, the internet criticism of him was completely unfounded, and had I listened to that drivel, I'd be having a lot less fun, and a have a lot fewer wins.

Does anyone actually use those ultramarine special characters?

Sanctjud — GMT

The problem with siccy is that he's everywhere in terms of gear and rules, and only really helps out a SM army heavy on infantry.

Which is not what everyone plays.

The skills he grants is lacklustre at most. His offense and defense are cool and on the above average side for HQ's, but a fist is still his bane even with a 4++, while his offense is really meh.

His shining point is that his Board Ld 10 doesn't replace combat tactics. In addition to RR seize, but I don't know about you, but I much rather go second.

That's how I see it, obviously everyone has different opinions and experiences.
It might be Siccy is awesome as hell, or it might be the rest of list performed well with him in it affecting the outcome or not.
They could be mutually exclusive, they may not be.

/Shrug, plus his cost...really...that much, that's like a 1850 or more like 2000 and beyond level games IMO.

My 7 Cents.

Re:Does anyone actually use those ultramarine special characters?

Tri — GMT

@:Sanctjud

Valid points but theres a good range of ways to play Sicarius

Drop pod heavy lists he's a dream. You go first and a remove several of the enemy units.

Combining a Tactical squad with infiltrate and a teleport homer and have your Terminators free from scatter

Combining a Tactical squad with Tank hunter, Meltagun, Combi-Melta and Multi-Melta. That''s effectively Str9+2D6

Combining a Tactical Squad with Scout and a Plasma Cannon. Move them up into a good spot and start dropping blasts turn 1

Sicarius him self isn't to shabby he got a 2+ armour save, 4+ inv and Feel No Pain (not for getting 3 attacks +1 2CCW and +1 on the charge)

Does anyone actually use those ultramarine special characters?

Sanctjud — GMT

@Tri:
With respect to an open list environment, who deploys their fragile units on the board when they are facing a pod list...

RR sieze is not a guarentee first turn...

Infiltratin/Homer termies: well you could have easily podded them in, or just drive there.
Terminators are elidgable to enter starting turn 2 not 1.
Hell, get scouts with a locator beacon.

Tank hunting tacs: that's the only 'great' skill, and even the it's lacklustre, you are in 2D6 range of 2 melta weapons when podding in (combi and normal melta) it's most likely dead anyway.

Scouting Plasma cannon: who doesn't use area terrain, if you are in area terrain then it doesn't matter which direction plasma comes from.
If it's a rhino wall, it doesn't matter where the plasma cannon hits

To his defesive stats: they are great at absorbing small arms, but he's no different than normal SM HQ's with only a 4++ vs. fists.

And his offensive is not that much different from normal captains, sure he gets on str 6 attack, but it's only one.

My 7 Cents.

Does anyone actually use those ultramarine special characters?

Deuce11 — GMT

i run two librarians to protect my stern...

although i have been considering fielding one Libbi and He'stan; I hate missing with melta/flamer

Re:Does anyone actually use those ultramarine special characters?

wuestenfux — GMT

No, not really. I never would in a competitive environment.
I prefer a Librarian with nullzone as there are many psykers out there in the 40k universe.

Does anyone actually use those ultramarine special characters?

Octavius Widowmaker — GMT

GeneralRetreat wrote:To answer a previous poster who isn't just here to troll:

If this is in refrence to me then by all means say your piece otherwise be more specific when you call someone a troll. I have not used Tigurius yet but am about to start experimenting with him to see what kind of uses i can get out of him.

Does anyone actually use those ultramarine special characters?

Canonness Rory — GMT

No, he was calling me the troll, don't worry octavius.

Does anyone actually use those ultramarine special characters?

Voronesh — GMT

Chronus seems like a superexpensive upgrade to me.

Putting him on something with few shots that are twinlinked is ugh.

LRC is the only LR id consider putting him on, but LRCs are supposed to be driving up the board, and then start shooting.

Plus 2 Hurricanes get you 12 shots at most, so youll prolly be missing 1-2 shots a turn. Not something id buy such a huge model for. Only if the game is so big, all troop choices have been maxxed. For his points youre already close to the 80 needed for 5 tac marines. Those easily give me the extra hits per turn, provide the same killpoints, and give me 5 extra wounds, and an extra troop to grab an objective.

Dakka Preds are alll good for him though.

Does anyone actually use those ultramarine special characters?

Canonness Rory — GMT

IMO even at BS5 dakka preds are lackluster, las + autocannon preds are better for him.

Re:Does anyone actually use those ultramarine special characters?

extermikator — GMT

Noting that no one has talked about Telion, I'd like to bring him up, as even though he is fairly expensive, the ability to take a Krak missile with a BS of 6 is just too good an opportunity to pass up. I haven't bought one, but I'm definitely going to have one, as his rules are kick- . He can also pick out individual targets. Goodbye farseers!

MC

Does anyone actually use those ultramarine special characters?

Sanctjud — GMT

Good bye farseers?
I think you are overestimating his gun.

Though it can rend, you still have to get through 3 wounds, 4++, which most likely be fortuned... or a 3+ armor on a jetbike.

Telion is nifty, his gun/ability is better off.... offing squad sargeants, basically one wound models that rending can kill, avoiding cover and stuff.

Even then he's really expensive for what you get, and you need a scout squad, which are questionable in a highly competitive environment.

For fun and kicks, sure.

My 7 Cents.

Does anyone actually use those ultramarine special characters?

Canonness Rory — GMT

Or heavy weapons or assault weapons bearers.

Does anyone actually use those ultramarine special characters?

imweasel — GMT

Sanctjud wrote:Well, lets just say jump pack then.
It makes the reg. chappy close to Cassius, but it allows him to keep up with assault marines.... sort of the bread and better for some lists.

You lost me right there. Assault marines are fail.

Sanctjud wrote:Cassius can't do that. He's nice, but limited is all I'm saying.

Which is what you are saying at the same time. You are more positive, while I'm more of a downer I guess.

My 7 Cents.

You mean you would rather take a regular chappy, give him a jump pack just so you could waste more points on assault marines?

And you think 25pts for cassius for t6, fnp and combi-flamer is a waste of points?

Wow.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Canonness Rory wrote:
GeneralRetreat wrote:/facepalm

Simple math here, guys.

[deleted for length]

Very simple math there guys. Increasing the BS of a non-TL shot is a greater benefit than increasing the BS of a TL shot.

When you look at what Chronus does, you need to look at how much he _improves_ the unit if you want a real measure of efficiency to investment.

Congrats, you can do math, but you don't understand basic logic.

Where the logic fails, outside of the math, is that it's a 70pt upgrade. Combine that with the limited bonus that he would grant and logic says chronus is not worth it.

Does anyone actually use those ultramarine special characters?

Sanctjud — GMT

@Imweasel:

Sure, assault marines are not ‘all that’. They are cheaper than Chaos Raptors and do their job decently.
The topic is: does anyone use those named characters, and I say I don’t, and offer some alternatives.

You can explain why you don’t like them as I’ve explained why I don’t think the 25 point increase on Cassius is worth it---TO ME---.
Just read and comment about my rationale, you don’t add much when all you address is:

“Assault marines are fail.” They could be, but that doesn’t stop people from using them, maybe to good effect even.

”You mean you would rather take a regular chappy, give him a jump pack just so you could waste more points on assault marines? “
It didn’t occur to you that some people are making the most of what they have?

Another issue for me with Cassius is that you almost have to have some sort of transport to deliver him, but some lists don’t have room for him.
10 man squads in rhino’s are supposed to be flexible, but if you ‘must’ combat squad just to get the space to throw cassius in, you lose a bit of that flexibility.

But hell he should be chilling with a squad geared for combat….soooooo what?
Assault termines in a LR, prob. the best place for him to be.

Lets look at his pros over a normal chappy:
-Combi-flamer: cool, but you won’t shoot that prior to assault really, for fear of losing charge range or enemy falling back.
-Hellfire rounds: well…. You won’t be rapid firing before a charge now would you…
-T6: is blunted for the purposes of wound the whole squad until you are left with one terminator. You CAN absorb any str weapon that’s ap 3,4,5,6, - but he only has 2 wounds.
-FNP: is cool as well, but it’s the mediocre number of wounds that really blunts the shineyness of this rule, T6 meshes nicely with FNP.

So what does he offer an assault oriented squad?
RR to hit and fearless (which a normal Chappy can do), then he adds 2 wounds to the squad, ONE of which will be used to absorb wounds for the squad in shooting. It is effectively T4 for wounding, but can take any str hit without instant dying, and gets FNP unless it’s AP1/2/ignoring armor.

So he himself offers a REALLY durable single wound to the squad.

Now, some think the extra 25 points makes him worth it, others don’t. I prefer to have the extra 25 points on hand, as I usually have more points to play with.
That 25 points can be thrown onto a LRC (multi-melta and extra armor)….makes the assault boat ignore shaken to continue moving forward, and has the option of tank busting with the MM using machine spirit.

/Shrug, I don’t think Cassius’s special stuff is useless, it’s just not effective in the big picture. He’s a flashy choice, no doubt, but I find that the 2 wounds is such a turn-off for a dude that looks so durable on paper.

My 7 Cents.

Does anyone actually use those ultramarine special characters?

Wehrkind — GMT

I think the thing to remember with Cassius is that in melee he is nearly unkillable short fists (and even then).
Since he is an IC he can avoid fists by not being in base with them when coming out of a LR. All those swinging at him will need to get past his high WS (needing a 4+ probably) his really high T (5-6+ unless they are MCs or fists) and then his armor/invulnerable and FNP. He even rocks enemy ICs with power weapons, since they still need 5-6+ to wound him and then have to get around the Inv save.
If you have an assaulting squad without jump packs (terminators, assalt/vanguard vets without packs, command squads) that are scooting about in a LR of some sort, he is a really powerful addition for just a tiny increase in the cost of a chaplain.

Does anyone actually use those ultramarine special characters?

oddjustice — GMT

Wehrkind wrote:I think the thing to remember with Cassius is that in melee he is nearly unkillable short fists (and even then).
Since he is an IC he can avoid fists by not being in base with them when coming out of a LR. All those swinging at him will need to get past his high WS (needing a 4+ probably) his really high T (5-6+ unless they are MCs or fists) and then his armor/invulnerable and FNP. He even rocks enemy ICs with power weapons, since they still need 5-6+ to wound him and then have to get around the Inv save.
If you have an assaulting squad without jump packs (terminators, assalt/vanguard vets without packs, command squads) that are scooting about in a LR of some sort, he is a really powerful addition for just a tiny increase in the cost of a chaplain.

QFT

People often forget how ridiculous toughness 6 can be, especially when marines don't have ready access to it like some other armies do. The fact that he either wrecks opposing units (if the enemy directs attacks at his accompanying unit instead of him) or soaks an absurd number of attacks in close combat can't be overstated.

Does anyone actually use those ultramarine special characters?

whitedragon — GMT

Can you mix him with Shrike for some Fleet lovin' goodness?

Does anyone actually use those ultramarine special characters?

Wehrkind — GMT

Probably... I don't think he lacks for combat tactics, but I don't know off the top of my head.

Does anyone actually use those ultramarine special characters?

oddjustice — GMT

whitedragon wrote:Can you mix him with Shrike for some Fleet lovin' goodness?

Yep. He doesn't have any special rules that replace combat tactics. So...yannow, enjoy.

Does anyone actually use those ultramarine special characters?

Sanctjud — GMT

You can mix both, Shrike for fleet and Cassius with a squad.
Pricey, you might have to watch it low points games.

I'm not saying the defensive qualities of Cassius are bad, I'm saying it's limited by the low wounds he has.

It's only two wounds, granted they are tough 2 wounds, but just two.
He can only absorb one fist wound (which is great itself, but that's really it before he dies).

I see it as this:
Many overweight the T6 and FNP.
At least I overweight the low number of wounds.

My 7 Cents.

Does anyone actually use those ultramarine special characters?

The Bloody Handed God — GMT

Can't Librarians get a psychic hood? Those are beast against psyker armies.

Does anyone actually use those ultramarine special characters?

Wehrkind — GMT

They come with hoods standard.

Does anyone actually use those ultramarine special characters?

Voronesh — GMT

Canonness Rory wrote:IMO even at BS5 dakka preds are lackluster, las + autocannon preds are better for him.

Youre right, forgot to include that. Thats what you get for writing a post and drifting off halfway in the middle of it.

Cassius has to stick in close combat, where T6 starts to matter. But thats where all cahppies are supposed to be. Actually id play Cassius with an honor guard squad with cahpter banner. in LRC.

All eggs in one basket, but hits like a freight train. Question is, when is it NOT overkill? High invul saves squads dont count ^^.

Does anyone actually use those ultramarine special characters?

Sanctjud — GMT

Honor guard = exensive wanna be terminators
Mandatory Master = overpriced for OB that never hits
Cassius = tougher chappy.
LRC= more points...
Blowing up the LRC and making them huff it, Priceless.

For everything else, there's Assault Terminators.

My 7 Cents.

Does anyone actually use those ultramarine special characters?

Voronesh — GMT

Making the enemy expend 75% of his army to kill a single LRC. Perfect for the other 1500k my army actually is made of.

Honor guard, no 5+ invul, but 5 points cheaper, gets 5 attacks on the charge due to chapter banner. so more attack make up for the fact of no rerolls on the to wound. extra bolters and bolt pistol for shooty.

Squad of 9 with chapter banner comes in at 30 points more expensive than a 8 Termie squad, actually fits inside a Rhino instead of only the LRC, so can jump the next transport no probs.

So since LR are nice and useful now, id consider them not too bad a choice, especially for the reason above.

The mandatory Chapter master isnt too good, but its 25 points for something fun, that you can use in a pinch. Use Pedro Cantor or Calgar if you want to have a good Chapter Master with all the tricks.

So all i can say, is repeat myself its the all eggs in one basket approach.

And assault termies walking are perfect fodder for any Plasma army. TH/SS is a different story, but they do not form a comparison against the Honor guard. Since they practically die against it.

Does anyone actually use those ultramarine special characters?

aflax1 — GMT

Chaplains for assaults and vets. It works.

Does anyone actually use those ultramarine special characters?

imweasel — GMT

Sanctjud wrote: @Imweasel:

Sure, assault marines are not ‘all that’. They are cheaper than Chaos Raptors and do their job decently.
The topic is: does anyone use those named characters, and I say I don’t, and offer some alternatives.

I am striclty speaking in the context of cassius being a waste of 25pts over a regular chappy.

Sanctjud wrote:You can explain why you don’t like them as I’ve explained why I don’t think the 25 point increase on Cassius is worth it---TO ME---.
Just read and comment about my rationale, you don’t add much when all you address is:

“Assault marines are fail.” They could be, but that doesn’t stop people from using them, maybe to good effect even.

Good effect vs inferior opponents perhaps. All things being equal, spending points on assault marines rather than other much more effective units is a far more waste of points than a 25pt upgrade by taking cassius over a regular chappy. Which is my point.

Sanctjud wrote:”You mean you would rather take a regular chappy, give him a jump pack just so you could waste more points on assault marines? “
It didn’t occur to you that some people are making the most of what they have?

Another issue for me with Cassius is that you almost have to have some sort of transport to deliver him, but some lists don’t have room for him.
10 man squads in rhino’s are supposed to be flexible, but if you ‘must’ combat squad just to get the space to throw cassius in, you lose a bit of that flexibility.

Throwing any chappy, cassius or otherwise, in a tac squad just...doesn't...make...sense. This is so nonsensical that it should not even be a consideration.

Sanctjud wrote:But hell he should be chilling with a squad geared for combat….soooooo what?

Just like any other chappy. Another non-point?

Sanctjud wrote:Assault termines in a LR, prob. the best place for him to be.

Like any other chappy.

Sanctjud wrote:Lets look at his pros over a normal chappy:
-Combi-flamer: cool, but you won’t shoot that prior to assault really, for fear of losing charge range or enemy falling back.
-Hellfire rounds: well…. You won’t be rapid firing before a charge now would you…
-T6: is blunted for the purposes of wound the whole squad until you are left with one terminator. You CAN absorb any str weapon that’s ap 3,4,5,6, - but he only has 2 wounds.
-FNP: is cool as well, but it’s the mediocre number of wounds that really blunts the shineyness of this rule, T6 meshes nicely with FNP.

He avoids double toughness instant death. He should be walking into fights where angels fear to tread. All chappys have 2 wounds, so continuing to use that argument should lead you to believe that chappies just shouldn't be used. You forget that the T6 in close combat is really good. It prevents instant death by double toughness and makes

Sanctjud wrote:So what does he offer an assault oriented squad?
RR to hit and fearless (which a normal Chappy can do), then he adds 2 wounds to the squad, ONE of which will be used to absorb wounds for the squad in shooting. It is effectively T4 for wounding, but can take any str hit without instant dying, and gets FNP unless it’s AP1/2/ignoring armor.

And this is quite huge, which means you are underplaying it quite well to show your point.

Sanctjud wrote:So he himself offers a REALLY durable single wound to the squad.

As opposed to a REALLY crappy single wound to the squad?

Sanctjud wrote:Now, some think the extra 25 points makes him worth it, others don’t. I prefer to have the extra 25 points on hand, as I usually have more points to play with.
That 25 points can be thrown onto a LRC (multi-melta and extra armor)….makes the assault boat ignore shaken to continue moving forward, and has the option of tank busting with the MM using machine spirit.

Every sm land raider should have a mm. Period. I would suggest finding the 15pts for extra armor someplace else or simply forego the extra armor.

Sanctjud wrote:/Shrug, I don’t think Cassius’s special stuff is useless, it’s just not effective in the big picture. He’s a flashy choice, no doubt, but I find that the 2 wounds is such a turn-off for a dude that looks so durable on paper.

It's far more than 'on paper' and 'the big picture'.

Sanctjud wrote:My 7 Cents.

Judging from the arguments you presented, I would say it's barely 2 cents, but whatever...

All I can say is if you want to take assault marines for whatever reason (fluff, something different, etc.) then the regular chappy is where you should be.

All other things considered, Cassius is no doubt worth the 25pts over most other upgrades in the codex.>

Does anyone actually use those ultramarine special characters?

Sanctjud — GMT

About tacticals + chappy: I had meant that he would have needed to be transported to combat.

I presented the tactical rhino was an option, I never said it was a great choice, and I did say the LR with an assault squad is where he should be.
I was illustrating that Cassy is not different from a normal chappy in that regard.

In addition, he 'can' function in a tactical squad combat squadded, or just in a drop pod full squad.
Tac vet w/ combi flamer
Trooper with flamer
3-8 joes
Chassius with his combi flamer.

It's not 'as good' as Ass termies in a raider, but there prob. is a reason why GW gave him a combi-flamer, so you can drop 3 templates where you need it.
/Shrug, not saying it's great but is an option.

[q]Like any other chappy. [/q]

That was my point. You pay a bit more for a slight bonus when you could use the points.....(ok if you don't like extra armor to make sure the ride gets there) 2 MM's on LRs that would of not been there with 5 points extra for...whatever).
The only thing you get for that 25 points is to absorb ONE str 8+ wound.
That's worth it to some, but it's the low number of wounds that makes it lacklustre.
You have control over how you allocated shooting attacks, but not in combat other than you getting your guy into b2b of somethng specific.

[q]As opposed to a REALLY crappy single wound to the squad? [/q]
I'm not saying any Chappy is a cake walk for the opponent, they both have a variety of saves and such. I prefer to keep characters as cheap as possible. Tacking on a chappy to an Assault unit is a boon already, more is a luxury/excessive.

You get lots of things with Cassy, many requires specific placement and situations to make use of what he brings, and even then it has the life span of one wound.

[q]My 7 Cents.[/q]
Don't get me wrong, this is my nomral way of ending a post, it's not meant to say my thoughts are more expensive than anyone else (even if that's what it looks like) but it's a running theme over at 40KO that I'm through and through nurgle, so it seemed like a logical step to throw a seven in there.

As for barely being 2 cents, I'm just throwing my opinons down.

I presented that the 2 wounds is just not so hot with all the defensive buffs.
I'm not saying that they are bad, just that it's not as good as it looks. The 'worthiness' of the cost is different for everyone, I belive I can better use the points from a chappy =-> chassius in better places.

If are are NOT starved for points, go ahead with Cassius, you'll just have to get the most out of him by:
-Allocating Str 8+ wounds to him. (still at effective T4), but will stop after the first wound.
-Random non ap 2,1 small arms (still at effective T4), but will stop after the first wound.
-When in combat, you'll need to be in b2b with the fist-equivlane bearer to force the opponent to put the fist on cassius.
-If you do not, and get into b2b of a regular trooper, then you only get to steal one model's attacks going up agianst his T63+FNP, which is cool, but not great.

My 7 Cents.