http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/14.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net BS (Baloney Sandwiches), while I concede that the following build (hopefully with your help/changes) is extremely powerful, its simply an efficient use of points and a clever use of CSM abilities and strategies... The only problem is horde control. I want your help to refine a list based on the above that I could offer to him to play, then try & beat down and feed him some of his own cheese!

HQ:
Daemon Prince + Mark Of Slaanesh, Wings, Lash of Submission = 155

Daemon Prince + MoS, Wings, LoS = 155

Troops:
Plague Marines (x7) + 2x Melta gun, Champion, Power Fist, Rhino, Havoc Launcher = 271

Plague Marines (x7) + 2x Melta gun, Champion, Power fist, Rhino, Havoc Launcher = 271

Plague Marines (x7) + 2x Plasma gun, Rhino, Havoc Launcher* = 241
*More blasts, long range, that work v.well with the lash & add to limited horde control?
Elites:
Chaos Terminators (x3) + 3x Combi-melta = 105

Heavy Support:
Obliterator Cult (x2) = 150

Obliterator Cult (x2) = 150

= 1498

I've opted out of champs & power fists in favour of havoc launchers and an additional Obliterator cult lone member (Either for target saturation or deep-striking multi-melta/etc). The reason why is that I have enough heavy hitting units that I can counter-assault with to get the plague marines out of detrimental tarpits.

Good/bad? Changes? Different builds entirely (but based on PM's, dual lash & oblits..?). Thanks ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267845/1151105.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267845/1151105.page GMT PMs-plasma to melta, fists on champs, Havocs out, single oblit out. Fill with combis.

Then you have the optimal CSM 1500.
EDIT-Assuming it fits your playstyle. Playtest at least twice before you face him.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267845/1151213.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267845/1151213.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267845/1151300.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267845/1151300.page GMT PMs can stall horde and grind through them. The DPs can jump in to jack out one squad at a time.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267845/1151330.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267845/1151330.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267845/1151348.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267845/1151348.page GMT PM squads.

The cheese list is deadly because each element in the list (DP, PM, Oblit) can deal with hoards, HQ, armor, and MCs with rapid efficiency. You are never caught with your pants down.

Without this, you will have to maneuver well, and may be vulnerable to a Creeded Leman Russ Squad, or some such.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267845/1151429.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267845/1151429.page GMT
45pts that could be spent on 1-shot 10pt combi-weapons... not somthing I'd think wise. I would need to drop a termie combi-melta in order to fit a third Champ+fist combo (if I were to drop the havocs) and this seems counter-productive.

Doing well?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267845/1151548.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267845/1151548.page GMT PF is 40. Spend 5 on something. Done.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267845/1151655.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267845/1151655.page GMT
But beside that point of contention which I'm probably wrong on, thanks for the feedback ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267845/1155814.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267845/1155814.page GMT
Stick with meltas on all your PM squads. Plasma guns are only good for killing MCs and terminators, and with the number of oblits you should have they wont be a problem. Being able to one-shot pesky nobs is good as well. Keeping all of your PM squads identical means that each squad can do the job that the other can. This redundancy makes the list stronger. Having one sqaud that is significantly different makes the list less powerful. Also always keep the powerfist on the champions, so that the PMs actually have some sting in combat.

Havoc launchers are a waste of points on rhinos. Rhinos are transports, not mini-tanks. Thier job is to get your PM squads to where they need to go and give them some extra protection. It isnt worth trying to make them do more than that.

What's the point of your termicide squad? They dont really seem to do anything that wouldnt be covered by taking some more oblits. You also dont have any icons in your list, so if they do manage to scatter within critical range of a vehicle, you will have been lucky. Drop them and with the points you save from scrapping the havoc launchers get another two oblits.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267845/1155844.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267845/1155844.page GMT
5x Plague Marines
Power fist, 2x Melta, Personal Icon, Rhino
215 points

Add more obliterators.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Go big or go home.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267845/1156267.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267845/1156267.page GMT PMs is too few. For 1750, you add 2 Oblits and another Termicide, for 1850, another Termicide, for 2000, 2 more Oblits. That's how dual lash works.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267845/1156495.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267845/1156495.page GMT
Done, with two points to spare.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267845/1157075.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267845/1157075.page GMT