<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Screamer Tactica"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/69.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Screamer Tactica
With the introduction of a possible 9 av14 tanks in guard armies, or the triple land raider list or even just someone fielding 15 chimera equivalents the anti-tank busting abilities of the Daemon codex are being put to the test. To destroy a land raider reliable requires soul grinders/daemon princes, greater daemons or, you guessed it, screamers. One advantage screamer's have over daemon princes, greater daemons, and soul grinders, is the ability to actually hide behind the hull of the vehicle they killed. The other good advantage is that a lot of the time whatever was in the vehicle you just destroyed is going to decimate your unit, would you rather lose 80pts worth of screamers or 160pts worth of big nasty daemon.

There is a plethora of strength 5 hand to hand attacks that can take out av10 rear armor vehicles, the issue there is getting your squad into attack range. This is also hampered by your opponent rev'ing the engine and running 12 making it much harder to take out his 35pt troop transport. Why not just take fiends or flesh hounds or seekers then? The answer there is that they can't handle the land raider above and the demolisher chassis get pretty tough with their rear armor of 11, and the fact they can't even touch a drop pod with it's all around 12's.(except for Fiends who can and often do, but then they aren't killing other things). The other problem is one of speed if you are within that 19-24 inch charge range all is great but if you are outside it, you aren't moving any faster than an infantry model. The other is because of tank shock. So you ran up and shook my vehcile, next turn I tank shock you, unload and kill your unit, or just ignore you and keep moving. Most people will think twice before tank shocking a melta bomb armed screamer.


On first glance, and probably the second and third, screamers are just not that impressive looking. They move like jetbikes which means they can't spread the turn they land, they are only weapon skill 3, they only have a single attack, strengh and toughness are okay, and their 4+ invul is nice but not spectacular, and of course they come with melta bombs. On the plus side they aren't the most expensive unit in the world.

So what does a unit of screamers provide? Not much is the actual answer. But taken in a large enough amount they give you both anti-tank ability and board control. The biggest thing here is to not take 1 unit of 9, you are better off with multiple units. My current preferred squad size is 4-5 with a full 3 squads.

Why 5 screamers? 5 screamers have a large enough footprint that they can block all access points on a vehicle except for open topped ones, and the valkryie. So you guessed it they can block all the access hatch's on a raider, or a rhino, or anything in between. 4 can cover most of it but something can still get out.

Why not a big squad of 9? When you get tank shocked only one model per unit can attack the tank so if you interleave units you can get multiple melta bomb hits on vehicles.

Initial board control
Okay so now that I've subscribed to your philosophy and gotten the screamers how do I use them? Against heavily mechanized armies, I will usually put the screamers in my first wave. I however do not put them within assault range on the first turn unless I have some good los blocking terrain to limit fire or I'm relying on target saturation to make sure some of them survive. Otherwise I drop them further back and rely on turbo-boosting up the field on the second turn. This is a good way to gain board control against a rapid-fire mechanized opponent. By dropping 26 inch's back he can't move 12, dismount the squad and rapid fire you away. However you are limiting him to about 8 inch's of forward movement otherwise he enter's your screamers charge range. This does not work so well against dire avenger's, and noise marines, just as fair warning.

My opponent is smart and moves his vehicles over 6 so I need 6's to hit.
If it's a fire-support vehicle then your screamers are already doing their job, limiting shots coming back at you. This is true even when forcing someone to move their vehicle so that you need the 4+ to hit. Predators, leman russ's with sponsons, falcons, land raiders all of them lose effectiveness if they move. Take your chances at a 6 and block available routes if possible, forcing your opponent to sit still on their next turn to shoot you or let you get the free tank shock (a note here, sometimes it is worth it to skip the chance at the 6 and turbo-boost an inch away to get the 3+ cover save).
If it's a troop transport then park your screamers right in front of it, forcing your opponent to tank shock you or get out and shoot you. If his squad gets out where it's at and shoots you they've done their job getting the unit out of the transport (another reason why 4-5 is better than 9, you lose less points with this tactic). This enables your infantry eating daemons a chance to get at the juicy tender inside of the troop transport.

What about skimmers?
Screamers can't movement interdict skimmers very well. You are either going to take a chance at a 6 or you want to plant the screamers about 10 inch's away from the skimmer.

What if my opponent doesn't have any vehicles?
Then you just wasted all those points, don't blame me! Just kidding. Screamers are great for movement interdiction on horde armies. Boost them up 24 inch's away and land them 1" away from your opponents mob, you just wasted about 6-9 inch's of their movement allowing you to focus on a different part of the army. Screamers are also great fun against things like boom-fex's, wraithlords, dreadnaughts, avatars, usually locking one down for a couple of turns. Just turbo-boost and surround them forcing them to charge you to get out.

Missions:
Kill Points hurt the msu nature of the screamers. But with their turbo-boost and range, you can play keep away with them almost the entire game if you feel they are a detriment. In objective missions they allow you to actually do last turn objective contestation like the sneaky eldar and tau! It's also fun to ring your own objective to help prevent the aforementioned eldar and tau players doing the same to you.

Wrap Up:
Because of their speed I love using screamers to block exit hatch's. Especially true against eldar and imperial guard with their single access hatch to the rear. I also touched on movement interdiction. Blocking off previously guaranteed assaults on precious units is especially frustrating for an opponent. Last turn objective grabs and forcing tank shocks also really make your opponent think.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/268939/1171109.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/268939/1171109.page GMT Screamer Tactica http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/268939/1171161.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/268939/1171161.page GMT Screamer Tactica However, i do only take 2 units of 6, maybe a 3rd unit in larger games (2,500)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/268939/1171182.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/268939/1171182.page GMT Screamer Tactica
I'm looking to start a Tzeentch Daemon army in the not-too-distant future and will definitely look at taking some of these now ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/268939/1171243.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/268939/1171243.page GMT Screamer Tactica
One advantage screamer's have over daemon princes, greater daemons, and soul grinders, is the ability to actually hide behind the hull of the vehicle they killed. The other good advantage is that a lot of the time whatever was in the vehicle you just destroyed is going to decimate your unit, would you rather lose 80pts worth of screamers or 160pts worth of big nasty daemon.

@J.Black
I have a lot of batreps in the battle reports section with my mono-tzeentch list if you are looking for some looks at actual games played with them.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/268939/1171264.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/268939/1171264.page GMT Screamer Tactica http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/268939/1171683.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/268939/1171683.page GMT Screamer Tactica
I've yet to see a skilled opponent lose a tank to them. Once, I killed a thunderfire cannon - that's it.

They're a small unit, with no good defense. Anyone with tanks that they care about simply kills the screamers first. That's not too hard to do, since they cannot attack when they land.

They're a mono-tasker, and as Alton Brown says, we don't want mono-taskers. Especially mono-taskers that can't even be relied upon to fulfill their task with any great degree of success. Melta-bombs aren't considered AP1, unlike meltaguns, and so, assuming you get a hit against your competent opponent who remembered to move his tank, you're still looking at a 50/50 chance of doing nothing of any great value.

Consider the environment that I see lately;

Mech guard - if these guys can't kill five screamers at range, with all their multilaser shots, they're doing something very wrong in their build.
Mech Marines - most of the builds I've seen run dakka preds - which will, again, make short work of screamers at range.
Land-Raider Marines - They have no real issue moving 12" and still firing one twin-linked gun. This offers them a large degree of protection from screamers
Mech Eldar - Wave serpents with scatter lasers - more S6 shots that rip apart screamers, while moving 12" to stay away from them.
Dark Eldar skimmer madness - can drop wyches into combat with the screamers very easily; no more screamers
C:SM - they've probably got a lash prince in there somewhere, who will do a good job preventing the screamers from accomplishing much.

I've tried them, and I find them very underwhelming. Realistically, they buy me one turn of my opponent shooting something. I'd much rather spend those points on a tzeentch chariot w/ bolt, who can take potshots at transports from range, and get a +1 to the result table.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/268939/1231050.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/268939/1231050.page GMT Screamer Tactica
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/268939/1236029.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/268939/1236029.page GMT Screamer Tactica
Redbeard wrote:In my experience, against skilled opponents (who are the only ones worth discussing), screamers are utterly useless.

I've yet to see a skilled opponent lose a tank to them. Once, I killed a thunderfire cannon - that's it.


I just don't know what to tell you Redbeard. I use them over and over they may not do something great in every game I play but they usually do something. We are probably going to have to agree to disagree here, but I'll try one last time .


They're a small unit, with no good defense. Anyone with tanks that they care about simply kills the screamers first. That's not too hard to do, since they cannot attack when they land.


I regularly find places to hide mine behind terrain or even behind other units or my opponents tanks. I just don't see how they can die for you every single game, unless you aren't taking enough of them, or your tables are sparse on los blocking terrain?

I realize that you are generalizing by only calling out one unit type from most of these armies. But even with the one's you show they just don't knock out all the screamers in a turn.


Mech guard - if these guys can't kill five screamers at range, with all their multilaser shots, they're doing something very wrong in their build.

6 chimeras I think is about average for 1850pts. Not including fast attack and heavy support tanks. That's 18 multi-laser shots. 9 hits, 8 wounds, I lose 4 screamers. So 300pts worth of tanks just killed 64pts worth of screamers. It also kept them from shooting the more expensive daemon princes and chariots. I know you probably mean more, but keep adding in tanks and see if you can get all 12 of them.


Mech Marines - most of the builds I've seen run dakka preds - which will, again, make short work of screamers at range.

3 Dakka preds is 6 str7 and 18 sponsons. Which is a total of 2 (from auto-cannons) + 4 (from heavy bolters) 6 dead screamers. Okay that's half of them, what's killing the other half?


Land-Raider Marines - They have no real issue moving 12" and still firing one twin-linked gun. This offers them a large degree of protection from screamers

Except that when I interleave my screamer units you are going to take at a minimum one auto-hit or you are going to have to move backwards or someone is going to have to clear them out of the way.


Mech Eldar - Wave serpents with scatter lasers - more S6 shots that rip apart screamers, while moving 12" to stay away from them.

If you are moving 12" you can't stay away from the screamers one round of turbo-boost puts you in their grill, they would have to boost to get away. One of the more fun things to do is block exit hatchs on wave serpents so that the banshees can't get out and assault. The most mech'ed up list I've seen had 9 vehicles, 3 of them prism's. 6 wave serpents all with scatter lasers gives you 24 shots. 18 hits 15 wounds which nets you 7 screamers, still leaving me with 5.



Dark Eldar skimmer madness - can drop wyches into combat with the screamers very easily; no more screamers

Be my guest because then the wych's aren't assaulting the chariots, or the vulnerable horrors.



C:SM - they've probably got a lash prince in there somewhere, who will do a good job preventing the screamers from accomplishing much.

If you want to lash around a 64pt unit of screamers be my guest, they are so cheap I don't care if you pop a unit.



I've tried them, and I find them very underwhelming. Realistically, they buy me one turn of my opponent shooting something. I'd much rather spend those points on a tzeentch chariot w/ bolt, who can take potshots at transports from range, and get a +1 to the result table.

Okay so here's my question to you then Redbeard. This is my standard 1850pt list. It's a themed mono-tzeentch list.

HQ
3 Chariot Heralds, blue scribes

Elite
3x3 Flamers

Troops
4x5 Horrors, all have bolt, 1 changeling

Fast Attack
3x4 screamers

Heavy Support
3 Daemon Princes, mark of tzeentch, daemonic gaze, bolt of tzeentch.


In that list the screamers add up to 200ish points. My only other option is more horrors for a mono list. Would you rather have 10 more horrors than the 13 screamers?

I drop 3 daemon princes, 13 screamers, and 3 chariots all of those mech lists above will not kill everything I landed. If I didn't have the screamers then I would have horror's, most mechanized opponents will just ignore the horrors to start with and shoot up the princes and the chariots. By putting the screamers in I've increased my potential killing targets, and I've gained board control. My screamers will not start within rapid fire range of troop dumping transports, they will start well back so that you would have to unload to shoot them, and guess what if you unload to shoot my screamers then they did their job. Or if I do land them closer it's because I've got blocking lines of fire to hopefully save the unit or I'm using them as a distraction.





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