<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "shotties"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/16.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net shotties Two or three ideas:

Automatic Shotgun: Assault 2 S3 AP- 12"

Pump-Action Shotgun: Assault 1 S3 AP- 12"

Pump-Action Shotguns are two-handed weapons and cost 0 points as Wargear. Automatic Shotguns cost 1 point as Wargear and also require two hands.  For troops with option of shotgun, pistol and ccw or rapid fire weapon, Automatic Shotguns cost -1 points and  Pump-Action Shotguns cost  -2 points. For example, an Imperial Guard Veterans favours a pump action shotgun and costs (8-2=) 6 points. A Space Marine Scout chooses an Automatic Shotgun and costs (13-1=) 12 points.

"Eat this!" - A model armed with a shotgun engaged in melee may choose to roll 1D6 during its shooting phase. If the result is equal to or under its initiative, it may fire as though it were not engaged in combat. It may still attack as normal in melee.

Shotgun Upgrades (Wargear)

Alpha Pattern Hellfire Rounds - 20 points, Alien Hunters only. (maybe some Eldar eccentrics or Veteran Scout Sergeants in an army with Chaplain Cassius too) Loses "Eat This!" unless weilder is Fearless or has Iron Will, wounds on 2+ regardless of toughness, center a blast template on any model slain by bio-explosive ammunition, any models under the template roll 1D6 and are hit at the slain model's strength on a roll of four or better, armour saves allowed as normal. Only one kind of ammunition may be chosen for a shotgun and they may not alternate between different kinds of shells.

Blessed Buckshot - 5 points, Daemon Hunters and Witch Hunters only. Invulnerable saves may not be taken against wounds caused by the shotgun. Only one kind of ammunition may be chosen for a shotgun and they may not alternate between different kinds of shells.

High Explosive Ammunition - 5 points, gains Blast, loses "Eat This!" unless weilder is Fearless or has Iron Will. Only one kind of ammunition may be chosen for a shotgun and they may not alternate between different kinds of shells.

Monofilament Shells - 10 points, gains Rending. Only one kind of ammunition may be chosen for a shotgun and they may not alternate between different kinds of shells.

Twin-linking - 5 points, models with S3 or less may not twin-link an automatic shotgun

 

 

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/26935.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/26935.page GMT RE: shotties (Tangent)
And Wight from what i can tell an autogun IS the equivalent of an AK-47 or M16 with a heavy stubber representing a .50 cal machinegun. And in 2nd edition the only difference between a lasgun and an autogun is that a lasgun had a -1 save modifier (seems a bit ironic that lasguns are AP nothing ). the Imperium wins its battles not because of super advanced technology but because they throw guardsmen at a problem until it goes away (apparently, compared to most races, humans breed like rabbits).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/36529.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/36529.page GMT RE: shotties str 4, ap 6, Assault 2. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/36647.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/36647.page GMT RE:shotties
Posted By foil7102 on 02/23/2006 9:43 AM
6 inch, str 4, ap 6, Assault 2.

That sounds a little extreme to me thinking about it.

An M16 (Autogun) is S3 AP -.

Buckshot shouldn't have more AP than a uranium-tipped steel bullet. I'd definately leave it as AP -.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/36669.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/36669.page GMT RE: shotties
Shotguns, keep rules as current however add +1 to init in close combat. Yeah, a bugs claws are faster than me, but I am shreading him from 4 steps away. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/37531.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/37531.page GMT RE:shotties
Posted By Gothicfuture on 02/22/2006 10:59 PM
(Tangent)
And Wight from what i can tell an autogun IS the equivalent of an AK-47 or M16 with a heavy stubber representing a .50 cal machinegun. And in 2nd edition the only difference between a lasgun and an autogun is that a lasgun had a -1 save modifier (seems a bit ironic that lasguns are AP nothing ). the Imperium wins its battles not because of super advanced technology but because they throw guardsmen at a problem until it goes away (apparently, compared to most races, humans breed like rabbits).

Well...in the 41st millenium it IS the equivalent. But bolters (s4) are fluffed as DU-tipped, explosive mini-missiles. Imperial Technology isn't really good by any stretch of the imagination - but IMHO the Dark Age of Technology ought to account for the +1 S over modern weapons.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/37602.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/37602.page GMT RE: shotties sh*t. At range they are useless, hence the 12" range.

I say again, strength 4 works well.

Darkchild]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/37956.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/37956.page GMT RE: shotties http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/38232.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/38232.page GMT RE:shotties
Posted By Darkchild on 02/25/2006 10:52 AM
its got nothing to do with the 41st milenium or the dark age of technology, it's about kinetic energy. At a range of 20 metres you can shoot someone with an assault rifle and they will keep coming at you if the round passes through a non fatal area. Shoot the same person in the same place at the same range with a shotgun and they will go down like a sack of sh*t. At range they are useless, hence the 12" range.

I say again, strength 4 works well.

Darkchild

The bit about the Dark Age of technology and whatnot was more in response to the "lasgun=AK" bit.

So, a present-day equivalent shotgun would be S3 - vs say S2 for an AK47 - a shotgun made with the same materials and technology as a lasgun/40k style autogun would be S4, and a shotgun loaded with modified boltgun ammo would be S5?

(tangent)

Actually, shotbolters would be kind of cool...that'd make shotguns on scouts worthwhile!

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/38653.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/38653.page GMT RE: shotties GW wanted to simplify the shotgun as it used to use a small blast template (with which you could theoretically hit 2 models)
BTW in Necromunda you could buy bolt shells for shotguns; it made them S4 and extended their range but made them more likely to run out of ammo/jam (ammo roll of 6+). They were also less accurate than a bolter at long range. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/38874.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/38874.page GMT Re:shotties AP:- assault 1. use the flamer template for the spread of the shot. within 5 inches of the target, strength counts as 4 and AP6. use line of sight of the model firing the shotgun to see who it hits. only the models of which the firing model can see 50% or more of can be hit (use your best judgment for 50% or not). make this cost 2 points more than the original upgrade.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/763930.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/763930.page GMT shotties range 12" strength 3 ap - assault 1
Special Rule: "hail of buckshot"
Cover saves taken against shotguns are reduced by 1. In addition, any wound caused by a shotgun is allocated as normal, then multiplied by D3, forcing one model to take multiple armor saves from one wound.
For example: 9 IG Veterans fire shotguns into a unit. 6 hit against a toughness 4 target and 2 wound. Each of those two are allocated to two seperate models within the unit. Then each is multiplied by d3 resulting in one model having to roll 3 armor saves and another 2

Ok, so it's poorly worded. But, it accurately represents the effects of an individual being hit by a shower of pellets, each potentially finding a gap in whatever protection said individual may have.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/764061.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/764061.page GMT shotties




-Orkishly]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/768848.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/768848.page GMT shotties http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/768900.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/768900.page GMT shotties http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/768905.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/768905.page GMT shotties 40k is dangerous as hell, that's why shotguns are so weak by comparison.

Why would you give shotguns an ability that makes them one of the better armor piercing weapons in the game when shotguns are one of the worst weapons there are when it comes to piercing armor in real life. Bolter rounds are armor piercing shells, they still can't get through a lot of the stuff people are equipped with. Are you trying to tell be a shotgun is going to get through armor better than a bolter? Or better than an autocannon? Come on. Genestealers have diamond-tipped flaws, Harlequins have mono-filament wires, shotguns aren't even in the same league.

Also, saying that all shotguns should be S4 is silly. Lasgun? S3. Chainsword? S3 unless it's also wielded by a super-soldier. In a wartrukk when it gets blown up by a railgun? S3 hit. S3 is powerful.

Plus, does a shotgun work so well when it's poor ability to pierce material means it's not going through an alien's thick skin and super-dense musculature? Not every target of the weapon is going to be another T3 human. There are going to be quite a few targets that actual bullets are going to be better against.

S4 does make more sense for space marine shotguns; I'll bet a space marine can accurately fire a far more powerful weapon than a guardsman can, and space marines are important enough to warrant more expensive ammo and weapon designs as well. Plus, of course, space marine shotguns are competing with bolters, so from both a game and fluff standpoint they need to be comparable.

Shotguns for both space marines and guard are a viable Assault 2 alternative to their respective rapid fire weapons, and they serve their purpose well.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/768925.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/768925.page GMT shotties

Automatically Appended Next Post:
..or AP6]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/769159.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/769159.page GMT shotties
Shotguns get a lot of good press in Movies, but IRL arn't nearly as effective. There's a reason why SWAT uses MP5s instead of Shotguns for building invasions. Shotguns can't do the damage a bolter can, nor cut threw the armor (they can be stopped 5 pizza boxes) a rifle can. (unless using a slug, in which case you'd never get the number of shots of you could with a rifle)

I think foil7102 my have had the best idea, having shotguns grant a CC bonus makes more sence then them being effective ranged weapons.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/769836.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/769836.page GMT shotties IG couldn't handle a strength 4 shotgun and that the AP value shouldn't be nearly as good as some are wanting. Neither of which are an issue in my suggestion.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/772475.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/772475.page GMT shotties
The ability to reduce cover saves is interesting. It does fit in with the close quarters/storming buildings use that shotguns generally have. GW seems to dislike modifiers though.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/772526.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/772526.page GMT shotties GW does perfer all or nothing weapons - though they do have cover modifiers like the spymask, stealth USR or marklights. Assault 1 Str 3 AP -, -1 cover could work nicely as well.

I agree that they multi-wound rule is unnessisarly complcated, particularly in a unit of 6-10 shotguns.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/772545.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/772545.page GMT shotties
Just my two cents.

CK]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/773066.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/773066.page GMT shotties

But seriously, you'd think the common shotgun of the future could fire something comparable to bolt shells. They obviously lost the STC for sabot ammunition.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/773298.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/773298.page GMT shotties
Orkeosaurus wrote:I think the multiple wounds thing is needlessly complicated, especially since things like flamers don't have that rule (and they could potentially get into a lot more gaps than a shotgun), and once again shotguns have a poor ability to go through armor in real life.

The ability to reduce cover saves is interesting. It does fit in with the close quarters/storming buildings use that shotguns generally have. GW seems to dislike modifiers though.


Mars.Techpriest wrote:Yeah GW does perfer all or nothing weapons - though they do have cover modifiers like the spymask, stealth USR or marklights. Assault 1 Str 3 AP -, -1 cover could work nicely as well.

I agree that they multi-wound rule is unnessisarly complcated, particularly in a unit of 6-10 shotguns.


Ok, so the -1 to cover was a good idea, but the multi-wounds isn't. I can deal with that.. what if the multi-wound portion was resolved at a different stage of the shooting phase? Say, before wound allocation? Then it'd be no more troublesome to resolve than ork lootas are. With the shotgun it'd be 4 separate rolls: 1- to hit 2- to wound 3- d3 multiplier 4- to save and with lootas it's 4 separate rolls: 1- d3 multiplier 2- to hit 3- to wound 4- to save and would kinda in a way represent the same effect.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/773766.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/773766.page GMT shotties http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/778083.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/778083.page GMT shotties
Mars.Techpriest wrote:Shotguns go threw less armor then modern assault rifles, and while they do have more stopping power, they're ability to actualy put down a target isn't much higher then an assault rifle. The primary advantage of a shotgun is that it's easier to use (and more avaliable).

Shotguns get a lot of good press in Movies, but IRL arn't nearly as effective. There's a reason why SWAT uses MP5s instead of Shotguns for building invasions. Shotguns can't do the damage a bolter can, nor cut threw the armor (they can be stopped 5 pizza boxes) a rifle can. (unless using a slug, in which case you'd never get the number of shots of you could with a rifle)

I think foil7102 my have had the best idea, having shotguns grant a CC bonus makes more sence then them being effective ranged weapons.


Um, I hate to disagree but as a military man I would be doing myself an injustice if I did not correct your statement.

Shotguns are extremly lethal in close quarters. That is their main attribute. SWAT has civilian law to contend with, and economy of force to deal with. So I would never reference civilian forces in a conversation of lethality.

Now if you want a real life source then look no further then the US military! Heres where I come in. Ever heard of the masterkey? Its a attachment for the M4 carbine and M16 currently in use in both wars.

Its the second one down
http://www.knightarmco.com/m203_12ga.html

Having trained with it first hand, I can tell you its unparalled in close quarters, breaching and clearing. The idea being that an unarmored target partially grazed will be dazed at least. Having even 3 small pellets enter your body will cause most people to go into shock. The main expect here is the "combat shock" I'd descibe it as that split second when you get hit by something and you wonder how bad your hurt or if your gonna die.

So lets say I bust down a door with my standard M4, I got a hodgie armed and waiting, we both exchange fire, he will go down but he will get a couple shots off. With a shotgun I have a much higher chance of scoring some kind of hit which will stun him and then myself or my breaching buddy puts one in his head. Often times the first strike no matter how small is all you need. Thats why the shotgun is what is it is.

Also ( for a matter of fact, and a matter of conversation) weve actually invented the bolter and guess what? Its a type of shotgun. You are probably confused so I'll let future weapons explain for me. You have to watch the whole video to understand where I'm coming from.

Let me introduce the AA-12
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4ebtj1jR7c

Oh and if you want my opinion in regards to rules. Shotguns should never have AP, hence while they are making a come back, hodgies dont wear armor. I think they need some sort of special rule to set them apart. The idea of frag grenades is on the right path, except it does not make sense. Grenades make people get out of cover, shotguns make you go INTO cover.

My idea (and you can change the numbers however you prefer) would be to have them str 5 ap- 12 inch range but they recieve -1 str for every 1inch from the guardsman so like I said play with the numbers and give them a minimum str. So like they can be str 5 if you are within like an inch but can be as little as str 2 maybe. I base this off a little quick ignorant math but if your standard rifle effective range is 24' then a shotgun shooting at 12 would be almost ineffectual. Compare an m16 to a lasgun and a shotgun to a 40k one, were talking a shotgun firing 300 at yds counting as str 2 which has a 33% of crippling a human(t3), that sounds about right on.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/786268.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/786268.page GMT shotties
archite666 wrote:


Let me introduce the AA-12
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4ebtj1jR7c


Zog me... all that dakka...

...its bootiful.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/786332.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/786332.page GMT shotties
Your changing modifiers are probibly the most acurate repersentation of a shotguns potential. However it's horrificly complcated for a unit of 10 Veteran fireing in to a staggered unit while not in formation. Particularly as you fire at the 'unit' not an individual model.

In the end, your math acutaly averages around str 3 Ap -. Which is what they are now.

I think a CC advantage is most logical, as CC does also repersent shooting with in 5-10 feet aswell. Perhaps counts as a 2 handed close combat weapon that strikes at str 4?

(remember, str 4 is about the same as being hit by a burst from the machine gun on top of a hummer)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/786520.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/786520.page GMT shotties
Mars.Techpriest wrote:I seed the point to 666. (And yes, technicaly, the Bolter is a type of Shotgun)

Your changing modifiers are probibly the most acurate repersentation of a shotguns potential. However it's horrificly complcated for a unit of 10 Veteran fireing in to a staggered unit while not in formation. Particularly as you fire at the 'unit' not an individual model.

In the end, your math acutaly averages around str 3 Ap -. Which is what they are now.

I think a CC advantage is most logical, as CC does also repersent shooting with in 5-10 feet aswell. Perhaps counts as a 2 handed close combat weapon that strikes at str 4?

(remember, str 4 is about the same as being hit by a burst from the machine gun on top of a hummer)


Yes I was gonna say that though my example might work its horrible complicated. Yes striking at str 4 would be nasty.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/786689.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/786689.page GMT shotties ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/786736.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/786736.page GMT shotties IMHO, it represents the enemy being stunned/shocked by the sudden force brought to bear from the wall of pellets flying at them.

My thoughts behind the Frag Grenades would be that it keeps the Guardsmen swinging at Initiative 3, not Initiative 1 as would normally be the case when charging into cover without Frags.

CK]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/786739.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/786739.page GMT shotties
Rapid fire weapons can't do that, that's the whole reason you equip anyone with shotguns in the first place. Assault 2 is the reason for shotguns being a close quarters weapon.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/786742.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/786742.page GMT shotties http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/786758.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/786758.page GMT shotties IG shotgun:
Shotgun
Special Rule: "hail of buckshot"
Cover saves taken against shotguns are reduced by 1.
A Shotgun may fire with one of the following profiles:
Range 18" Strength 2 AP-Assault d3
Range 12" Strength 3 AP- Assault d3
Range 6" Strength 4 AP- Assault d3

A Space Marine shotgun would be identical just +1 strength across the board to represent the more powerful ammunition they would likely use.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/795717.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/795717.page GMT shotties Orkasorus has a point, a shotgun really is balanced as an assault option replacment for the Lasgun.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/795842.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/795842.page GMT shotties
Mars.Techpriest wrote:I direct your attention back to the 'that's to complicted' discussion.
Orkasorus has a point, a shotgun really is balanced as an assault option replacment for the Lasgun.


How's that more complicated than Sternguard or Deathwatch special ammunition rules? Or Space Marine Whirlwind alternative fire modes? Or the Imperial Guard's new Orders? Or the Tyranid's weapon profiles that are totally dependent on the creature's profile, which is can be modified by upgrading them with bio-morphs? Or Necron's We'll Be Back rule? Or Ork Mob Rule allowing them to replace their leadership with the number of models within their unit up to 10 and 11+ making them fearless? Or Lootas' random number of shots? Some things in the game need to made a whee bit more complicated to be realistic and/or flavorful

With what I suggested, you could easily resolve a large unit of shotgun-armed models. Say you have 10 Imperial Guard Veterans with shotguns dismount a Chimera in front of an Ork Mob in 4+ cover. In the shooting phase, measure range from the rear most Veteran and select the most powerful profile within range. We'll say the farthest model is 11" away, so the midranged shot is selected. Then, like Ork Lootas a d3 is rolled and applied to all 10 Veterans. Then, we'll say a 3 is rolled, so 30 shots are resolved against the Orks. Roughly 20 shots hit, then approx. 6-7 wound. Wounds are allocated by the Ork player and due to the "Hail of Buckshot" is reduced to a 5+ save, which is still better than the Orks' 6+ armor save so maybe 4 Orks are killed.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/800532.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/800532.page GMT Re:shotties http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/804678.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/804678.page GMT shotties
It's also not realistic or particularly flavorful, and makes the shotguns far more powerful then Lasguns, which they really shouldn't be.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/805017.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/26935/805017.page GMT