<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Daemons - How competitive can they be?"]]>

<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Daemons - How competitive can they be?"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/69.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Daemons - How competitive can they be?
So how competitive do you think that daemons can be?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1221392.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1221392.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be? But then again in apocalypse when pair with other armies they're awesome!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1221393.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1221393.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be? 40k armies can take, you can't win.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1221403.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1221403.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be? IG is THE over buffed army. This army may do well verses Tau but other than that they're a tier 3 army IMHO]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1221424.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1221424.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be?
G]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1222984.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1222984.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1224204.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1224204.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be? DE are a challenge though. How they perform in any tourney depends on the person playing.

G]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1224335.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1224335.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1224528.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1224528.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be?
G]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1224620.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1224620.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be? 40k demon army with my spaze marineez.

They just don't like null zone.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1225591.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1225591.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1225657.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1225657.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1225761.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1225761.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be?
Also, heavily mechanized builds, which is what guard, eldar, tau and marines are all leaning towards, cause problems for daemons. Needing to kill tanks in HtH, when you may only be hitting on 6's kinda sucks.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1225833.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1225833.page GMT Re:Daemons - How competitive can they be?
Regardless of what tier an army is nothing stops a good General.

I digress though. Breath of Chaos will be your tank buster since their is no stopping it and they can deploy using it. Deep strike a group of tznetch flamers good game. The vehicle(s) is going to be hurt.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1225845.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1225845.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1225921.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1225921.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be?

Redbeard wrote:Breath of Chaos is not a tank buster. Getting glances doesn't kill tanks, and a 50/50 chance to get that glance isn't nearly enough to win a game.

Following the posts people put up that HtH v vehicles is hard for daemons. The breath can stun / immobilize a tank and that is a dead tank/transport. Against a land raider which is av14 on all sides a 4+ glance with three attempts from a small squad can be a game winner.

There is no perfect solution or set. It comes down to the General and knowing what their units can do. Best of luck OP. Best advice I can give is the first thing a person does who gets into WH40k.

Pick an army that appeals to you. No one else s opinion matters...ever.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1226227.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1226227.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be?

Frenzied Potato wrote:Following the posts people put up that HtH v vehicles is hard for daemons. The breath can stun / immobilize a tank and that is a dead tank/transport. Against a land raider which is av14 on all sides a 4+ glance with three attempts from a small squad can be a game winner.

And what exactly are you going to do with a stunned/immobilized land raider? Stare at it? I suppose if you can get a soul grinder in btb with it, you can destroy it.

Frenzied Potato wrote:There is no perfect solution or set. It comes down to the General and knowing what their units can do. Best of luck OP. Best advice I can give is the first thing a person does who gets into WH40k.

All generals being equal, handicapping one with a sub par list is not a path to victory.

Frenzied Potato wrote:Pick an army that appeals to you. No one else s opinion matters...ever.

Yes. Except when you want to pick something competitive.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1226253.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1226253.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be?

imweasel wrote:

Frenzied Potato wrote:Following the posts people put up that HtH v vehicles is hard for daemons. The breath can stun / immobilize a tank and that is a dead tank/transport. Against a land raider which is av14 on all sides a 4+ glance with three attempts from a small squad can be a game winner.

And what exactly are you going to do with a stunned/immobilized land raider? Stare at it? I suppose if you can get a soul grinder in btb with it, you can destroy it.

Well, you could autohit it with any number of monstrous creatures or even a khorne herald on juggernaut. Or, especially if you don't have a soul grinder, just ignore it. Nothing can be instakilled in the daemon army and the little stuff is a bit of waste. If it is a prometheus then stay out of range of the flamer templates. The most vicious is probably the crusader, but again, either stay out of range or destroy it with a monstrous creature.

Frenzied Potato wrote:There is no perfect solution or set. It comes down to the General and knowing what their units can do. Best of luck OP. Best advice I can give is the first thing a person does who gets into WH40k.

All generals being equal, handicapping one with a sub par list is not a path to victory.

Frenzied Potato wrote:Pick an army that appeals to you. No one else s opinion matters...ever.

Yes. Except when you want to pick something competitive.

As mentioned, the most difficult thing facing a daemon player is oneself. It has a HUGE learning curve - you will lose a ton of your first games. If that will bother you, then don't play them. Contrary to internet wisdom neither the mystic nor the librarian is an autoloss (truthfully, the librarian is more of a pain than the mystic but still not unbeatable).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1226537.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1226537.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be?

Somnicide wrote:As mentioned, the most difficult thing facing a daemon player is oneself. It has a HUGE learning curve - you will lose a ton of your first games. If that will bother you, then don't play them. Contrary to internet wisdom neither the mystic nor the librarian is an autoloss (truthfully, the librarian is more of a pain than the mystic but still not unbeatable).

Harder to learn than the dark eldar?

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1226611.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1226611.page GMT Re:Daemons - How competitive can they be? CC, and horrors have enough dakka to do nasty stuff to hordes and practically any infantry that doesn't have heavy armor and FNP. Even MEQs go down to horrors, though not as much as you'd like. Flamers are ideal for dealing with heavily-armored guys with high toughness and FNP. If you take a standard daemon list, it can deal quite well with elite infantry and maybe reasonably well with hordes.

However, you also have lots of problems with mech, your guys are expensive, and your saves are honestly kind of pathetic. And those saves get even worse if your opponent has a librarian, which he can stick in a LR in the middle of the board as a giant middle finger. You can counter that with Fateweaver, to a point, but that restricts your movement, since his protection bubble is so small.

Reliable anti-mech strategy will generally rely on fast MCs. Anti-transport stuff can be done with models with Bolt of Tzeentch, but AV 13 and especially AV 14 really need MCs who can get into CC with the vehicles (hence, being fast - having wings or at least being fleet). This is unfortunate, as they tend to be overly expensive and often aren't as sturdy as you'd like.

Lists with lots of LRs are very difficult for a daemon list to deal with... the method others have mentioned for dealing with LRs is expensive (takes about 300 points dedicated to the task to even make a decent attempt at it, and the flamers will likely die quickly after the attempt) and iffy at best (especially when your opponent gives them extra armor, meaning the only way to significantly affect them is to roll a 5 on the glance, which goes down to an immobilize - anything else at best destroys a weapon or more likely shakes the LR, which your opponent often won't care about).

Heavily mech Tau are also potentially problematic - less so than LR spam, but for the same overall reasons (they can move 12" and then shoot, they have high armor at least in the front, and let's not forget the automatic cover save if you're over 12" away).

I've never fought IG with my daemons, but I'd suspect they don't have quite the same problems; they've got lots of tanks, but at least your MCs could in theory catch up to them in few turns and hit them in CC without a miracle.

In the end, the answer is: if you're looking for a truly competitive army, look elsewhere... but keep in mind, even if you're going to lose, your bizarre rules and playstyle will likely freak your opponent out enormously, and be plenty of fun.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, note that nothing in the codex has a range over 24". This isn't so bad, as you deepstrike everything, but it does mean that you have to think very hard about placement of your shooters.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1226680.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1226680.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be?
As Somnicide has noted daemons have a steep learning curve. What I did to learn how to play daemons effectively is watch other good daemon players. Once you have the basic mechanics figured out it's usually rather simple. Daemons are not hindered by deployment and they can drop on top of objectives. Sure null zone can be annoying but it doesn't work against armor saves or cover saves. You come in on a flank versus the Inquisitor and Mystics.

Mechdar and raider heavy DE armies are indeed a tough matchup but let's be honest, you don't see these armies very often so why spend a lot of time worrying about them? Every army has tough matchups, that's just the way it is. No one should expect to win every game but if you can consistently win the majority I think you'll do just fine.

G]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1226828.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1226828.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be?

Aduro wrote:I've got something like a ~3 to 1 win/loss ratio with my Nurgle Daemon force. Interestingly enough, it almost perfectly corresponds to my first roll of the game to see if I get the half I want in on the first turn. I've only lost one game where I got my half, and only won one game I didn't. I definitely think they're more competitive than my Necrons.

Where I play this is exactly how it goes. The wrong half comes in when it's needed most and there's 2 turns where the opponent has a very good window to set up for either a massive assault or race around denying safe places to drop in. From where I stand they aren't very competitive except against people who don't understand them. And the people I know who play them are no amateurs, believe you me.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1226843.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1226843.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be?

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:

Where I play this is exactly how it goes. The wrong half comes in when it's needed most and there's 2 turns where the opponent has a very good window to set up for either a massive assault or race around denying safe places to drop in. From where I stand they aren't very competitive except against people who don't understand them. And the people I know who play them are no amateurs, believe you me.

The bit in bold is what makes demons a poor army for serious play, imo, more so than their troubles with vehicles (honestly guys, any army that relies on BS3 or CC attacks has trouble with vehicles, plugging your ears and humming won't make it go away) because more and more armies are getting to have the ability to control their deployment. All it takes are some infantry you don't mind dying.

Consider what many successful fifth edition armies have besides vehicles - lots of disposable dudes. Guard have them, the good tau armies have them, orks have them, tyranids will have them, even marines can stretch their tacticals far enough during deployment to do the job.

If I have 30 disposable models on 1" bases and you can't safely deep strike within 7" of them (average scatter distance)... well, your math stinks if you think I can't force you to either deep strike far enough back that you're not a threat to my army before I can deal with you.

Of course, you could always throw caution to the wind and deep strike right up next to my bubblewrap and hope for good scatter but at that point you're needing to get your good wave, AND get good scatter? Demons are random enough, you've got to have some serious testicular fortitude to feel the need to exacerbate that issue.

Games vs demons are won and lost during the deployment. You'll absolutely annihilate anybody who just puts his guys down and says "ok, go!", but against someone smart enough to try and control where you land you're in trouble.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1226927.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1226927.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1226933.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1226933.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be? But Fateweaver, Bloodcrushers, Plague Bearers, and heavy support units (DP's or the Defiler equivalent)
can eventually make up a competitive army.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1227145.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1227145.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be?

Green Blow Fly wrote:Daemons have access to a lot of tools for tank busting. If you are moving your tanks 12" so they can only them on a 6+ then you aren't shooting.

The specific models I mentioned (LRs and Tau tanks, though I think the Tau tanks may need an upgrade) can move 12" and shoot. LRs can move 12" and shoot even if they're shaken, and can take extra armor to keep from being stunned... and if you ignore a Tau tank you'll lose your troops. Dealing with either a LR or a Tau tank used by a reasonably skilled opponent, even if it's only a single vehicle, takes the devotion of a large number of points, a fair amount of luck, and a fair amount of skill (though of course more of any can be substituted for a lack of others to a point - if you're extremely lucky, you might even be able to DS behind a Tau tank and Bolt it from behind, but a good opponent will probably make this very difficult).

The ones that don't move quickly and shoot, of course, are less problematic, as I mentioned. 4+ to hit and 4 or more attacks with a MC on the charge make me happy.

I realize that I'm only talking about two models here, and one of them in an army that's not terribly common (the Tau). However, LRs are quite common, and when they contain Librarians with Null Zone, your daemon army will have to either figure out a way to open them up or die. I still haven't found a really good general solution to the problem... the closest reliable method I've found is to sacrifice two fast and strong MCs to the job, which is not even remotely cost-effective.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Specific response to ideas brought up:

Sacrificing a bloodthirster gives you a decent shot at downing or immobilizing a LR, about 35% on the charge assuming you gave him unholy might or just under 30% if you death-or-glory. (Of course, if you fail the death-or-glory, your opponent doesn't even have to bother shooting your bloodthirster, as he'll go splat underneath the LR).

Anyway, if you're talking about competitiveness, an inability to deal with an obvious army list without relying on extremely large amounts of luck kills you. Completely. If you're talking about fun, then, well, daemons are definitely fun. The OP asked about competitiveness, though.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1228167.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1228167.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be?
Herald of Khorne on Chariot, Unholy Strength Rending
Herald of Khorne on Chariot, Unholy Strength Rending
Herald of Khorne on Chariot, Unholy Strength Icon
Herald of Khorne on Chariot, Unholy Strength Icon
5 Crushers w/rending
5 Crushers w/rending
5 Crushers w/rending
Grinder w/tongue
Grinder w/tongue
Grinder w/tongue
5 Letters
5 Letters
5 Letters
5 Letters
5 Letters

Something like that, anyway.

It works fine. It beats most lists before the game begins.

Here's how I see the victory matrix:

If your foe is a scrub, or doesn't understand the Daemon dex you'll win no matter what list or mission, even if you fail DA.

Daemons are one of the only armies that can win the drawfest mission, and they almost never lose it.
KP are a tossup, Daemons have an advantage, but it's not nearly as decisive as in drawfest. A failed DA switches the advantage to the foe.
3-5 objective missions are the hardest, Daemons have about an even shot with a good DA, not much worse with a failed DA.

Overall, it's a good matrix. You win more than you lose. Proxy em up, give it a shot.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1228194.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1228194.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be? IG, Orks, or some possible Tyranid builds (in the near future).

I like the army, personally, but if you're dealing with larger volumes of lead, your chances of getting your assaulty troop units into their lines are going to be slim. Tzeench and Nurgle provide your most useful troops choices, as they are either tough as nails and difficult as anything to actually remove from an objective, or they can actually make a dent in something the turn they come in.

All this being said, The last game I played, my Khorne Berzerker Skull Champion (kitted out with a PF) managed to take both DCCWs and the Mawcannon off of a Soulgrinder that he spent a full 6 rounds in close combat with... He's currently in the conversion shop for an Upgrade to a Khorne Lord, possibly with Daemon Weapon...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1228252.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1228252.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be?

40kenthusiast wrote:
Overall, it's a good matrix. You win more than you lose. Proxy em up, give it a shot.

I'm quite curious. With that list, how do you deal with fast high AV? (Land Raiders and Tau tanks specifically.) I can see the grinders having a chance (almost 30%) if they catch one, but that would seem pretty difficult... your heralds are even slower, and while the rending guys are at least theoretically capable of taking down AV 14 I don't see it as being much short of a miracle. (Off the top of my head, less than 5% chance per guy...)

I'll agree that against somebody who doesn't have a working knowledge of your codex, you have an advantage. But then, that's the case with any army.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1228269.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1228269.page GMT Re:Daemons - How competitive can they be?
It seems like your real question is "how do slow Daemons deal with fast shooting lists?". That is, we land, they scoot away and shoot? If that's the question, the answer comes in board control, the enemy's real estate footprint, and the mission objectives. Daemons basically land on the objectives and camp out. As long as the enemy hangs out at a distance we start moving towards them. If they let us make a shield around the objectives 10-15 inches out they've lost the game, no matter how much they shoot. If they come in to fight we rip them up with our superior statlines. KP is the roughest time, we have to chase and try and cut corners, sometimes even splitting up.

A diagram might help. Imagine this as a typical 6x4 table.

111111
2*22*2
333333
*4sSs4

The S's are Space Marines, that's about the typical footprint for a SM army setup on top 1 in a pitched battle. Imagine that the third objective is under the middle S, which is why it's capitolized.

Now Daemons land like this:

111111
2*22*2
33dd3d
D4sSs4

See how it is? No room for keep away, with Daemons able to mutually reinforce as the game goes on wherever the SM counterattack occurs.

In later rounds rows 1 and 2 will fill with Daemon troops, who will be unbothered on the north objectives.

To put it another way, think of a typical SM list:

It's primarily shooting, right? with a fairly serious counterattack unit. The SM's basic problem is that the Daemon army is extremely hard to shoot down, and only their counterattack unit can even slow them up. All the points they have in tac squads, devs, bikes, predators, land speeders, etc. are unlikely to make anything like their points back. They shoot once or twice at Crushers/Grinders/Heralds, then get run over.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1228337.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1228337.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be?
Fateweaver gives you rerollable saves which is ridiculous, he also has a nice anti tank shot

Bloodthirster catches those land raiders and russes if they are moving fast they not shooting much.

Bloodcrushers are really tough to kill and very nasty in combat.

Horrors with bolt are decent anti tank and anti infantry also

Plaguebearers give you tough scoring units.

Grinders give you the strength 8 ap 3 fat kill marines template]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1228366.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1228366.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be?
Bloodthirster/Unholy Might, Blessing of the Blood God, Deathstrike
Skulltaker/Juggernaught
Herald/Juggernaught, Unholy Might, Fury of Khorne, Blessing of the Blood God

6x Blood Crusher/Fury, Icon, Instrument

15x Bloodletter/Icon
15x Bloodletter

Soul Grinder/Phleghm, Tongue
Soul Grinder/Phleghm, Tongue
Daemon Prince/Mark of Nurgle, Wings, Iron Hide, Noxious Touch, Cloud of Flies

I have many units that can take out landraiders and Monoliths. Any unit can take out a Tau gunship as you are hitting on rear armor (AV10) with at least S5. The Bloodthirster, Daemon Prince, Herald and both walkers can penetrate AV14 in assault and the walkers can penetrate them with shooting. The Bloodthirster is your best bet and if the landraider has moved 12" it can't shoot much so I can ignore it for a turn. I can always hit a Monolith on at least 4+. The last time I played versus Necrons my walkers took out a pair of Monoliths the same turn in close combat... Soul Grinders are faster than both landraiders and especially Monoliths... If the landraider is moving away then I can shoot it with a railgun (tongue).

Nullzone is no big deal, I can use cover saves and armor saves. If you are in close combat with my daemons then good luck, you're really going to need it. All my units have high WS, high S plus a lot of attacks.

And remember that a landraider cannot outrun the Bloodthirster or daemon prince. It's just a matter of waiting until they opt to move 6" or less and it will happen. If I charge a landraider that has moved 6" or less the greater daemon should land three hits, all of which should penetrate, so it's gone bye bye. The only vehicles that are hard to take out are fast ones that can move over 12".

G]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1228520.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1228520.page GMT Re:Daemons - How competitive can they be?

40kenthusiast wrote:What do you mean by "deal with?" Also, Tau tanks and Land Raiders are entirely different beasts.

By "deal with" I mean "destroy or otherwise significantly reduce the game impact of." High AV vehicles that can move 12" and shoot (LR troop transport is an added insult) are my bane. The few times I've fought armies that didn't have one of those, I've done well (or screwed up and been able to point out reasons why I did poorly).

I'm somewhat surprised by the amount you seem to be spreading out your daemons - I would have thought that much spread doesn't give you enough concentrated killing power anywhere - but if it works well for you I'll think about how to apply that.
However, you haven't mentioned how you actually deal with LRs. A librarian in a LR is very difficult to get at. You're not going to keep him pinned because he can simply tank shock you, and most of your units can't touch him.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1228525.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1228525.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be?
G]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1228544.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1228544.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be?

Green Blow Fly wrote:If you tank shock then it can be charged the next turn.

G

You will still have moved 12", however, and you can't necessarily even be charged by something that can actually hurt you.

I don't really understand the idea that you can simply ignore a LR if it's going 12". Sure, it can only fire one weapon, but first of all it can fire a fairly good weapon, second it can transport troops to your objectives (or itself contest an objective), and third it can have psykers inside who can use their powers regardless of how fast it's moving. If it lets its troops out on their turn, they can charge yours, and who gets the charge can make an enormous difference. Generally, if a LR has moved only 6" in a game I'm playing, I'm about to lose 2 nearby units because it is shooting all its weapons and unloading its passengers (who will then shoot and assault the stragglers).

As everyone says, playing daemons requires being aggressive. LRs take away the ability to be aggressive, because there's little that we can do to them until they choose to slow down, dump their passengers, and unload their weaponry... they mess around with timing, in a way that is more controllable to the SM player than reserves. (Also, once they're done messing with timing, they're still a pain in the rear).

Did you mean to say to hit a Tau tank with a shooting attack or catch it in CC? If it's shooting, a good Tau player will make it very difficult to hit the back of his tank. It helps that his main gun swivels 360 degrees, so he can face his back to the table edge or simply away from your shooters if all of them have deployed. If CC... well, I've never tried to spread my forces out the way that was described earlier, so if that works it may be the solution to that problem.

I'll certainly agree that grinders are the way to go against a monolith, if you choose to take out the monolith.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1228988.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1228988.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be?
Last tournament, I faced an army with something like 3 dreads, 4 speeders (mm/HF), 2/3 dakka preds, and a few tac squads. Given that your only solid choice for killing his tanks outside of CC is the grinders, and they're only hitting 50% of the time, and are easily destroyed by MM fire, now you're left with dreads tying up your crushers, speeders doing fly-by flamer runs on your daemons, and tacs in rhinos tank-shocking past anything they need to get past.

Maybe that's just how my dice roll. Typically, I'll run a daemon prince into a vindicator that needs 4's to hit and won't hurt it. We can't get AP1 attacks in CC, and we often need 6's just to hit. Repeatedly shaking an enemy tank while they're dropping your models doesn't play out well in the end. It's not just Land Raiders that cause problems, it's the whole new damage table.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1229014.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1229014.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1229032.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1229032.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be?
Last year, they didn't do nearly so well.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1229055.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1229055.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be? lr is probably not the best decision. Maybe I am missing something Dave but when you assault a vehicle you auto hit rear armor (AV 10)... Tinfoil.

To me it's a myth that daemons have problems with mech. You catch them with your assaults and blow them sky high. You can only fire so many shoots... Last week my Crushers took two full rounds from two punishers right in the face for minimal losses then my walkers smashed them with shooting and an assault.

There is a reason why my greater daemon has deathstrike, to shoot down those pesky skimmers like landspeeders. The best thing transports can do is keep moving Away and that in itself does not win games.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bill Kim had his daemons there this year but unfortunately his crushers were lost in a mishap the final round.

G]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1229058.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1229058.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be?

Lemartes wrote:Fate Crusher did win a Ardboyz Tournament didn't it?

And all it had to do was not use Daemonic Assault deployment and put it's Blood Crushers on the next size smaller bases to pull it off.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1229066.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1229066.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be?

Lemartes wrote:Fate Crusher did win a Ardboyz Tournament didn't it?

Not necessarily by following the rules...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1229084.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1229084.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be?
G]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1229106.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1229106.page GMT Re:Daemons - How competitive can they be?
Splitting up risks the enemy rushing one part of the list and overrunning it, and leaving your counterassaulters hitting their screening vehicles, which moved > 6". I've seen this tactic a bunch of times.

General counters are that 1: the portion they are overrunning is typically tougher than they initially presume, it's easy to underestimate Crushers/Heralds, and 2: the counterassault will pop even fast moving vehicles, unless they are LR's, and those are typically used to deliver the troops that are doing the overrun, so they aren't available for screening those same troops.

On popping Land Raiders: If they just keep moving 12" far away from you, you have to ignore them. The one gun they can shoot, typically the assault cannon, will get 4 shots, probably 4 hits, so, figure 1-2 wounds one rend vs. Crushers/Herald? One wound gets through, usually. It's bearable, since in the meantime you are eating up all of their other stuff and getting on the objectives. The LR is a transport, if it wants to pretend to be an MBT that's a lot of points you aren't facing.

On Kairos: With a crusher list I prefer not to bring him, oddly enough. I prefer 4 chariots, or 3 chariots and the Masque (who has to be tried to be believed, it's AMAZING vs. Orks, Nids, anything with guys on the ground).

I'd also like to use this space to plug the GUO w/grenades. I've seen him take Zerker charges and smile, plus he pops walkers, which are a big annoyance to my list.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1229812.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1229812.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be?
On inquisitor+mystics: tzeentch daemons shoot at an 18-24 inch bubble which means that most of the time you can deep strike in such a way the inquisitor won't really see you unless he rolls really good, then you light up said inquisitor with shots, it's not that hard to kill off t3 mystics.

Null-zone: It's called cover, same thing against a psy-cannon, and if you made it into hand to hand, most of my stuff dies there anyways.

Land Raiders: I have 12 melta bomb toting screamers, 9 4+ auto-glances and 11 str8 ap1 shots in my army. Every single unit I have has a chance to hurt a land raider, but mainly flamers to stun or immolbize and then screamers to auto-hit and destroy, or just screamers turbo-boosting in front of land raiders usually does the trick.

Is the army unbeatable, no, and we will see what the new nids do to it, but I've never seen someone walk away from a game with my army say that it was not a competative list.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

40kenthusiast wrote:
On Kairos: With a crusher list I prefer not to bring him, oddly enough. I prefer 4 chariots, or 3 chariots and the Masque (who has to be tried to be believed, it's AMAZING vs. Orks, Nids, anything with guys on the ground).

I'd also like to use this space to plug the GUO w/grenades. I've seen him take Zerker charges and smile, plus he pops walkers, which are a big annoyance to my list.

I'll second the amazingness that is the Masque. And the GUO w/ grenades at his low points costs is unbelievable. It makes me really shudder when thinking about a 6 wound trigon with feel no pain, because I know what a hassle a great unclean one is.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1229922.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1229922.page GMT Re:Daemons - How competitive can they be?
However, I guarantee that the math I presented is accurate. You have to use a lot of points' worth of models (many of whom aren't likely to survive) or be really lucky in order to deal with one LR before it slows down - and if you manage to, you then have to deal with its cargo. If you can figure out a way to keep that from mattering, good on you; I still have problems with, late in the game by an objective, being shot at with a flamestorm cannon, a TL assault cannon, and a storm bolter, and then being shot at and charged by terminators.
Terminators by themselves I don't have a problem dealing with. Give me thirty to kill, and I'll just flamer them to death, and maybe kill the remaining couple with dakka, or bolts, or a particularly brave CC-capable unit. LRs with termies inside, however, can kill my flamers with ease before I can use them against the termies. (On average, it should take 12 flamers to get an immobilize result. If you're lucky and the opponent hasn't put extra armor on it, you can also stun, lowering that number to only 6. Congratulations! You now have an immobilized LR and 210-420 points of flamers, who are incapable in CC unless they pull very unlikely stunts, sitting in easy assault range of whatever was inside.)

My experience is limited, it's true, and as I said I don't use a truly optimized list. However, math (which I'm reasonably skilled at), common sense, and the experience I do have all tell me that they are very difficult to deal with. Not impossible, but very difficult - requiring significant good luck, an opponent who makes a significant mistake, or the devotion of a disproportionately large and important fraction of your army.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1230403.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1230403.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be?
some people might not like that aspect. it really isn't any different from losing 3 land raiders in turn one, except you are rolling the dice that are killing you

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1230521.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1230521.page GMT Re:Daemons - How competitive can they be?

DaveL wrote:I suppose I'm not being entirely fair to the list. I am going largely on the models I have, which have been mostly Tzeentch and built less efficiently than Warmaster's lists.

However, I guarantee that the math I presented is accurate. You have to use a lot of points' worth of models (many of whom aren't likely to survive) or be really lucky in order to deal with one LR before it slows down - and if you manage to, you then have to deal with its cargo. If you can figure out a way to keep that from mattering, good on you; I still have problems with, late in the game by an objective, being shot at with a flamestorm cannon, a TL assault cannon, and a storm bolter, and then being shot at and charged by terminators.
Terminators by themselves I don't have a problem dealing with. Give me thirty to kill, and I'll just flamer them to death, and maybe kill the remaining couple with dakka, or bolts, or a particularly brave CC-capable unit. LRs with termies inside, however, can kill my flamers with ease before I can use them against the termies. (On average, it should take 12 flamers to get an immobilize result. If you're lucky and the opponent hasn't put extra armor on it, you can also stun, lowering that number to only 6. Congratulations! You now have an immobilized LR and 210-420 points of flamers, who are incapable in CC unless they pull very unlikely stunts, sitting in easy assault range of whatever was inside.)

My experience is limited, it's true, and as I said I don't use a truly optimized list. However, math (which I'm reasonably skilled at), common sense, and the experience I do have all tell me that they are very difficult to deal with. Not impossible, but very difficult - requiring significant good luck, an opponent who makes a significant mistake, or the devotion of a disproportionately large and important fraction of your army.

The flamers rarely cause an immobilize/stun, more often than not i get just your average shaken. But it happens occasionally. The nicer part of it is that since the lr can't shoot it makes it harder for them to eliminate the screamers that just boosted in front of them. As far as point's "efficiency" I guess I look at the fact that my 12 screamers cost less than a land raider, so if I can use all of them and get the tank then they've done the job, even if they all die in the process. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1230530.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1230530.page GMT Re:Daemons - How competitive can they be?

DaveL wrote:
I suppose I'm not being entirely fair to the list. I am going largely on the models I have, which have been mostly Tzeentch and built less efficiently than Warmaster's lists.

However, I guarantee that the math I presented is accurate. You have to use a lot of points' worth of models (many of whom aren't likely to survive) or be really lucky in order to deal with one LR before it slows down - and if you manage to, you then have to deal with its cargo. If you can figure out a way to keep that from mattering, good on you; I still have problems with, late in the game by an objective, being shot at with a flamestorm cannon, a TL assault cannon, and a storm bolter, and then being shot at and charged by terminators.
Terminators by themselves I don't have a problem dealing with. Give me thirty to kill, and I'll just flamer them to death, and maybe kill the remaining couple with dakka, or bolts, or a particularly brave CC-capable unit. LRs with termies inside, however, can kill my flamers with ease before I can use them against the termies. (On average, it should take 12 flamers to get an immobilize result. If you're lucky and the opponent hasn't put extra armor on it, you can also stun, lowering that number to only 6. Congratulations! You now have an immobilized LR and 210-420 points of flamers, who are incapable in CC unless they pull very unlikely stunts, sitting in easy assault range of whatever was inside.)

My experience is limited, it's true, and as I said I don't use a truly optimized list. However, math (which I'm reasonably skilled at), common sense, and the experience I do have all tell me that they are very difficult to deal with. Not impossible, but very difficult - requiring significant good luck, an opponent who makes a significant mistake, or the devotion of a disproportionately large and important fraction of your army.

Dave dont take this the wrong way but I dont think you really know what you are talking about. It just seems like such a n00b thing to say "Oh landraider beats that list". We have shown you why it doesnt but you keep bringing it back up. Are you reading anyone elses posts besides your own?

G]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1230585.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1230585.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be? imo.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1230608.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1230608.page GMT Re:Daemons - How competitive can they be?

Green Blow Fly wrote:
Dave dont take this the wrong way but I dont think you really know what you are talking about. It just seems like such a n00b thing to say "Oh landraider beats that list". We have shown you why it doesnt but you keep bringing it back up. Are you reading anyone elses posts besides your own?

I am. If you recall, I have dropped my objections to dealing with Tau tanks, as I've never tried anything along the lines of what was suggested. Your suggestions for dealing with LRs may be valid when you can afford to ignore them, but only Warmaster's have been complete in the sense that he has outlined something to do if the LR is moving 12", other than ignoring it. (My objections to ignoring it are in an earlier post.)

Somnicide wrote:
mathhammer =/= playing the game. Sorry, but it doesn't because it naturally treats all the numbers in a vacuum. I will not go further, but mathhammer is lame imo.

Mathhammer, in the sense of doing math and claiming that it accounts for everything in the game, is lame. Doing basic math and pointing out that, say, a S8 weapon can only do anything to AV14 rarely and that what it does then is a glance, is intelligent. What I'm trying to do is in between. I suppose you can decide how far along the sliding scale what I'm doing is for yourself; to me, it's in the "potentially useful as long as I keep in mind that I'm not keeping track of everything" range.

Warmaster wrote:
The nicer part of it is that since the lr can't shoot it makes it harder for them to eliminate the screamers that just boosted in front of them.

That's a good point. I'll have to try it... if it works, you all have my apologies for dragging the thread out.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1230854.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1230854.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be?
The evaluation of Daemons vs. mech is very important. Remember that's what everyone has been saying is wrong with nids and necrons. Those two codeci inability to deal with massed mech is what is keeping them from being considered "competitive".

I think a good general will find ways to win with their army so I have a hard time saying that any codex is not competitive, I do think some have easier combinations to use.

About the screamers, I wrote this tactic's thread a while back for them. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/268939.page#1171109]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1230896.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1230896.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be?
G]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1231048.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1231048.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be?

Green Blow Fly wrote:It is a commonly perceived misconception that daemons are problematic versus mech. It's not true as daemons can land such that armor cannot move out of their next turn charge arc.

G

And Necrons can kill a Land Raider by glancing it to death, therefore mech isn't a problem for that army, right? Just because something can happen doesn't mean it will, or that it's even likely.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1231416.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1231416.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be? AV 14 with ease. Sure if the daemon list is not properly designed to handle landraiders it's going to be a long game but there are many deamonic units thAt can shred landraiders with relative ease. A good daemon army should have several of these units.

G

G]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1231464.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1231464.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be?

Danny Internets wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:It is a commonly perceived misconception that daemons are problematic versus mech. It's not true as daemons can land such that armor cannot move out of their next turn charge arc.

G

And Necrons can kill a Land Raider by glancing it to death, therefore mech isn't a problem for that army, right? Just because something can happen doesn't mean it will, or that it's even likely.

QFT! I used to run a 3 LR and two Dread deathwing army and played against necrons quite often to not so great results.

Back on topic: Soul Grinders do have a S10 24 inch weapon that can deal with high AV. Also breath of chaos comes into it's own when used against vehicles packed closely together as each template can cover multiple vehicles. Works well against castled up armies or orks bunched up inside a KFF. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1231540.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1231540.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be? BoC can only glance, correct? As I recall the Railtongue relies on the Soulgrinder's BS of 3 to hit, so it's hardly reliable. It's possible that the weapon will serve you well but I wouldn't bank on it.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1231569.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1231569.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be?
I don't understand why people have such a hard time realizing that close combat is the best way to destroy mech.

G]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1232109.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1232109.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be?
What I'm not willing to do is trade that same bloodthirster to kill a 35 point rhino. And the bloodthirster has no significantly better chance of killing a rhino that move 12" than it does of killing a Land Raider than moved 12". It probably scores one hit, probably scores one pen, and is then at the mercy of the vehicle damage table.

I lost a tournament because of that kind of thing. Game three, top table, playing against a DE skimmer army. It's an objective mission, and I've managed to kill most of his transports, while being close enough to the objectives to either hold or contest them. Except one, that's just kinda out of the way. He's got one raider with some dudes in it, and I've got a bloodthirster close enough to attack it, but of course it moved 12" the prior turn to get into that position. Bloodthirster attacks, predictably lands one hit, one pen, and then... '2'. Raider is open-topped, so that's a weapon destroyed. Any other result, I win the game, as it's either dead or stunned and not moving. As it is, he drives off to the last objective, and wins the game, and tournament.

And someone is going say, 'well, that's just luck' - well, yeah, it is. But, he won the tournament, and I didn't. And this is the sort of thing that I run into, consistently, with daemons. Without a reliable AP1 gun, I end up struggling against mech. It's just luck that my daemon prince can land four hits on a vindicator and not even get a 10 to glance it. It's just luck that three fiends can completely miss an opponent's rhino. It's all just luck... BS - at some point, you have to see the trends and acknowledge that there is more to it than just luck. My daemons, regardless of the build, struggle against heavy mech armies. I just cannot reliably kill their tanks.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1232237.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1232237.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be? Other than redbeard and GBF, does anyone here actually play daemons?

Screamers move as jetbikes and have melta bombs as standard, thats allways a good base for building on when it comes to anti-tank.
2 units of 5 set you back a small 160 points, and can easily be out destroying tanks the turn after they drop.

Just a case of actually learning how to hug cover, rather than staying out in the open with them.

Other than that, soulgrinders with tongue and in combat work against tanks fine.
If your going tank hunting with a thirster then throw might on him, that +1S makes all the difference when against things like LR's.

If your hunting down light vehicles then a herald with might, fury and chariot will do fine.
High enough S + Rending means he can pop transports.
Failing that, give him a jugger and a unit of crushers to run with and they can be popping transports and killing the units inside.

TBH, i dont usually take a prince, they tend to be too points heavy for the job they do.
Also, the upgrades arent bad, but the only decent ones set you back alot! (wings for example)
Just find that theres other units capable of the same job, if not better for less points.

I also agree with GBF about mystics.
If you know how to DS, they wont be a problem.
You dont go dropping in next to them, since thats just stupidity.
Plan your drops, work out how units will go and how they will work together, then think about dropping.

Also, i find bolt on horrors to be a waste.
You have a unit that fires 3 shots per model, and instead your going to attack a tank?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1232266.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1232266.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be? DE are a tough matchup for daemons in general. A transport with treads is not the same thing as a skimmer tank by any means. Dont mix apples and oranges.

G]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1232311.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1232311.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be?

JD21290 wrote:WoW, read through all of this and no mention of screamers for anti-tank?
Other than redbeard and GBF, does anyone here actually play daemons?

Screamers move as jetbikes and have melta bombs as standard, thats allways a good base for building on when it comes to anti-tank.
2 units of 5 set you back a small 160 points, and can easily be out destroying tanks the turn after they drop.

Just a case of actually learning how to hug cover, rather than staying out in the open with them.

Well, given that they've got a 4+ inv save, hugging cover doesn't do much good unless you can completely hide them. And, with the terrain at many tournaments, that's certainly not a given.

Add to that, they suffer three glaring weaknesses;

1) One attack each. Which means that they're not all that good at going after tanks that move. And, seeing as how they cannot assault the turn they show up, any smart opponent will move their tank. (or just kill the screamers)

2) Not AP1. Which means that, on the off-chance that your opponent isn't smart enough to have moved his tanks, and you actually do score some hits, you're still at the mercy of the damage table.

3) Useless against anything else. If I'm going to spend 160 points on something (even two somethings), I want it to do more in the games when I'm not fighting tanks. For roughly those points, I can have six fiends, which are probably better against vehicles, and most definitely better against everything that's not a vehicle.

Also, i find bolt on horrors to be a waste.
You have a unit that fires 3 shots per model, and instead your going to attack a tank?

It's 10 points. And, yes, sometimes, you're going to attack a tank. Like, when your opponent is all in rhinos. 3 S4 shots isn't much use against a rhino.

Green Blow Fly wrote:Redbeard I said DE are a tough matchup for daemons in general. A transport with treads is not the same thing as a skimmer tank by any means. Dont mix apples and oranges.

It's not apples & oranges. Skimmers are insignificantly different to other vehicles in 5th ed. They can avoid terrain easier, and they can dodge ramming. Otherwise, they're the same. 'Fast' skimmers have an additional benefit, in that they can gain cover saves if they move over 12". But, a DE Raider has more in common with an Ork Trukk than it does with a Devilfish, and a Devilfish might as well be a Rhino apart from when it flies over terrain. It's all about distances moved, not whether you're a skimmer in 5e.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1232333.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1232333.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be?
G]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1232393.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1232393.page GMT Re:Daemons - How competitive can they be?
I land 11 inches away from you. You drive 12 inches from me. Now I'm 23 inches away. Even if I'm a fiend/seeker unit, it's an unlikely charge, and for most Daemons it's flat out impossible. Even a Soul Grinder couldn't do it, and they are my go to guys for running vehicles.

Also, random note, vehicles can go an extra 6 inches if there's a road. I had it come up last game.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1232415.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1232415.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be? I think they would get a boost in my list due to skarbrand.

your right that demons have a harder time killing vechicle compared to say a shooty guard army, but to keep those vehicles alive you need to keep moving. which reduces your shooting greatly.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1232437.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1232437.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be?
I have not encountered roads in any games.

G]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1232441.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1232441.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be?

Green Blow Fly wrote:Redbeard you are a wrong in regard to skimmers. A tank on treads can only move 12" maximum.

Unless it's a FAST tank, like a hellhound...

a skimmer on the other hand can move out beyond the 12" charge arc.

Unless it's not a FAST skimmer, like a Devilfish.

The relevant distinction isn't whether something is a skimmer, it's whether it's a FAST vehicle. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1232460.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1232460.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be?
: )

G]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1232507.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1232507.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be?

JD21290 wrote:WoW, read through all of this and no mention of screamers for anti-tank?
Other than redbeard and GBF, does anyone here actually play daemons?

Umm, wow, already discussed screamers, even linked an article specifically talking about how to use them.

Also, i find bolt on horrors to be a waste.
You have a unit that fires 3 shots per model, and instead your going to attack a tank?

And what are you going to do in the following two situations.

1. You drop your horrors and everthing and it's mother is in a vehicle. You sit there and do absolutely nothing with your squad.

2. You are camped nicely on your objective, and someone comes up and tries to tank shock you off of it. Well I guess you just move out of the way.

I never expect to hit anything with a bolt, and rarely shoot it but it works great for death or glory and it's at least a shot against an all mechanized list.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1232528.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1232528.page GMT Re:Daemons - How competitive can they be? KPs on you from the first 2?

Also consider that having 4 units that can reasonably threaten vehicles in assault doesn't mean jack when mechanized armies are commonly putting down 6-12 vehicles on the board. If the army is spread out enough that you can't threaten ALL of the vehicles in his army, then he can move the ones you CAN threaten fast and have the others sit still and pound you. Generalship 101. lol

Being able to decide the terms of engagement is an advantage mechanized armies will almost always have over demons, which is HUGE when you consider that demons were designed to be played the other way around.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1232557.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1232557.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be? AP and with nids not being immune to instant death (as well as oblits and thunderwolf cav) it is nice to have.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1232560.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1232560.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be? str 4 shots.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1232605.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1232605.page GMT Re:Daemons - How competitive can they be? WBB rolls is also going to be hurt. It's a pretty obvious statement and doesn't really have anything to do with the level of competitiveness the Daemons present.

The question, ultimately, is how competitive can they be? The answer is that they are very competitive. A few models seem to have a distinct advantage, and people will quickly point out Inquisitors of one of two varieties. First, the one that gets to shoot at all deep-striking units. Yes, this is a pain but it is not the end of the world. Most of that shootiing is going to do very little damage. Second, the "no daemons can draw line of sight" Inquisitor. After reading and re-reading this character over and over again it is very clearly stated that it applies to the Chaos Daemons in that codex and not the Chaos Daemons codex. The simple fact is that GW is in the business of making an enjoyable game and a cheap model that hoses an entire army list seems contrary to their intent. The Witchhunters needs a huge update.

Competitive Daemon lists rely on the resilience of the army. Most models have high toughness and all of them have invulnerable saves. Nurgle armies have access to poisoned weapons, Khorne has deadly HTH units, Tzeentch has powerful ranged attacks, and Slanesh has some oddball stuff.

Don't write Daemons off because they could roll poorly. Don't forget that they could roll well and steam-roll you. Just as easy as it is for a Daemon Player to lose Fateweaver to a bad Ld roll, it's much easier for that player to successfully save against every attack you make in a turn on his Bloodcrushers (T5, 3+ rerolled saves).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1233251.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1233251.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be? I just wanted to say that some very good daemon players such as 40kenthusiast, somnicide and warmaster are contributing to this thread.

G]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1233321.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1233321.page GMT Re:Daemons - How competitive can they be?

Alamoth wrote:A few bad dice rolls can ruin anyone's strategy, not just Daemons. Arguing that the reserve rolls can really hurt a Daemon player is no different than saying that a Necron player who fails his WBB rolls is also going to be hurt. It's a pretty obvious statement and doesn't really have anything to do with the level of competitiveness the Daemons present.

Saying that demons don't have the odds stacked against them is just ignoring the problem, lol. You roll 1 dice and I roll 1 dice. We both have the same chance to roll poorly. When you're rolling all the dice (not literally the same number, but you take saves, make rolls to hit, etc just like everyone else) I am during the game, plus several extra rounds of dice during deployment, who's more likely to get messed up by dice?

Look at the kinds of armies that reserve (and do it well) - guard, eldar, soon new tyranids. They all have ways to get bonuses to their reserve rolls and minimize the randomness. Demons don't have anything like that, and they've also got a 1 in 3 shot to screw up their game right from the start. Yeah you can try to make your waves as symmetrical as possible, but just look at the force org chart. It doesn't divide equally. If you have 2 identical waves, you'll end up with 2 underpowered wave and your strategy to make both waves effective winds up making them both ineffective.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1234896.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1234896.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be?
G]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1234910.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1234910.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be?

Green Blow Fly wrote:One in three odds are not that bad plus good daemon players know how to account for the 'wrong' half coming in. It sounds like you are on the outside trying to take a peek inside.

G

One in three odds is enough to lose you a tournament. The fact that I disagree with you doesn't mean I'm clueless. If you like playing the odds, good for you! I don't, and judging by the number of demon armies you see these days neither does the rest of the world.

Just curious, how would you divide up the army you posted earlier in this thread to help minimize the damage of getting the wave you don't want? Against something common, like mechanized marines.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1235082.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1235082.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be?
Check my batreps for my splits.

G]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1235239.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1235239.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be?
Does that mean we autowin? No, and our rules mean that you have to be able to think further ahead than most armies and to react to a bad scatter or whatever. Does that make us better players? Probably not, but what it does is makes those of us who stick with daemons better at dealing with the vagaries of chance. It is an intrinsic part of our army and why I love it so much. I can't just push my landraider filled with th/cc termies and vulkan forward in the exact same game plan every single game (let me also say that I have 2 huge Space Marine armies - Black Templars and Crimson Fists and I love both of them). Yes there are counters to daemons just like there are counters to everything else. Some of our counters seem more harsh, but really it is no worse than any other army.

Your original question was how competitive can they be. There are two ways I will answer this and then basically be done with this thread since we have hit the "uh huh/nuh uh" phase of the thread life.

1. They can be as competitive as any other army in the game - there are no "autolosses".

2. It won't seem like it at first because you will lose the vast majority of games you play. You will then hit a tipping point in which you will win by the same margin.

Thanks for the time, please post batreps of whatever army you choose and have fun with your hobby.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1235254.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1235254.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be?
Are deamons beatable? Yes, are they easy win? No.

Underestimating deamons is a serious mistake. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1235288.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1235288.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be?

Green Blow Fly wrote:This is a game of dice. Everyone is playing the odds. The thing about daemons is that the advantage gained outweighs the risks.

Of course there are risks for every army. Minimizing those risks means you have better control over the game, and a good player with that kind of control will win a lot more than he'll lose.

Why do you think guard are such a powerful army right now? They've got lots of cheap vehicles and units - that's redundancy, which means losing one of anything doesn't hurt you much. They've got lots and lots of big guns - which means missing a volley or scattering awfully doesn't hurt you that much. They take up lots and lots of space - which means you don't have to take risks to control the objectives. They have orders, which lets you improve a unit where you need it, when you need it, which is an excellent force multiplier. The whole army is built around minimizing the effects of being bent over by the dice which is why it's so powerful right now.

Check my batreps for my splits.

I had a look at the 3 most recent demon battle reports (the 3x tourney, and 2 singles I think) and it looks like you're either cheating or you need to re-read the demonic assault rules. Here are your waves from this thread.

(1) Bloodthirster, Soul Grinder, Soul Grinder, Skulltaker + Herald + Blood Crushers
(2) 3x Bloodletters

From the DA rule:

"At the beginning of your first turn, divide the army into two groups that must include, as much as possible, the same number of units."

If you're running 2 soulgrinders, 3 units of bloodletters, 1 of bloodcrushers, 1 bloodthirster and 2 heralds that's 9 units, which means the most you could legally put into your first wave is 5.

Any army is powerful when you ignore the rules, right? lol]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1235299.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1235299.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be?
Are deamons beatable? Yes, are they easy win? No.

Underestimating deamons is a serious mistake. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1235302.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1235302.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be? I see nothing wrong with his waves.

Wave 1:

1: Thirster
2: grinder
3: grinder
4: crushers with characters (formed into a unit from the start)

Wave 2:

1: letters
2: letters
3: letters

You cant split it up 100% even since there is an odd number of units.
Adding characters to a unit just forms a bigger unit in terms of splitting for drop.

See that "+" sign in the post? that means they are together.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1235377.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1235377.page GMT Re:Daemons - How competitive can they be? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1235382.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1235382.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be? lol.

All in all, its an effective way to add both a punch to the unit, and get more into the drop you want.
Cheap trick, but works fine.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1235386.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1235386.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be? IC in a transport with a unit instead of putting him on the table by himself. That's where IC's go. No reason to think Daemon IC's should have to show up on their own.

As far as the DA roll goes, there are multiple competitive Daemon builds, and some are hurt by it a good bit more than others. Big monster lists covered in flying Nurgle DP's and Thirsters doesn't particularly mind a failed DA, and neither does 40ke's Khorne blitz. A Fateweaver-based mono-Tzeentch list really doesn't like seeing it however (certainly not an auto-loss, but it's an uphill battle a lot of the time). An Epidemius lists really doesn't want it either (though I've never seen a lot of evidence that an Epi list is necessarily as high on the "competitive" scale as other builds).

I can certainly attest to the pain of a bad roll though. In a recent tournament whose top prize was a 2k point army of your choice (as in, you pick the models, not 'Ard Boyz style) I was in the running for top prize at round 4, and against Twin Lash, not only did I get the wrong half of the army with mono-Tzeentch, but Kairos and 2 DP's didn't bother to show up turn 2 either. I know that anyone can be screwed over by enough bad rolls (as was mentioned earlier), but very few armies tend to get screwed over by 2 bad rolls. Failing the DA, then not bringing Kairos from reserves on turn 2 pretty much sealed the game up. The fact that he also didn't show up on 3 was was just insult to injury. The Lash player went on to win a 2k point DE army.

And finally, I wanted to address the weaknesses...I've played right through Inquisitor+Mystics, Null Zone Libby's, and even an allied GK squad with 2 Psycannons with an Inquisitor with another Psycannon (I have some buddies who really hate Kairos)...by far, the thing that gives me the most trouble is the Land Raider. I can't count the number of times I've lost or not won due to Land Raiders. Either protecting too many KPs in missions where you not only have to win, you have to win by x number of KPs, I couldn't crack them or get at anything inside. In the drawfest mission, too many times I've had a random LR tank shock me off the opponent's objective when they either have troops nearby or in the LR, turning a win into a draw. Or a pair of LRs to contest the Seize Ground objectives my remaining troops have. They are just too hard to kill reliably, and give me a world of problems. And the worst part about it is that every SM army has 1-2. They can even turn games that should be heavily in my favor (due to lists, missions, scrubbitude, whatever) into tough games just due to their presence. My army doesn't really have a problem with Mech per se, but it has a world of trouble with LR's. I've brought in the Screamers several times to try to remedy the situation, but it always seems subpar. I never feel they're stronger than whatever I have to remove, even in situations where the LR's are present. Same with the Soul Grinders...they've been good at doing a lot of things when I use them, but they're all things that I could do well with the rest of my army. They rarely ever get a chance to punch LR's to death thanks to the deluge of melta everywhere combined with the low chance of actually killing a LR that moved cruising speed.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1235484.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1235484.page GMT Daemons - How competitive can they be?
G]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1236037.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/271926/1236037.page GMT