<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)"]]>

<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/54.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8437433.stm

Danish police shoot intruder at cartoonist's home

Kurt Westergaard has had a price on his head since 2006

Danish police have shot and wounded a man at the home of Kurt Westergaard, whose cartoon depicting the Prophet Muhammad sparked an international row.
Mr Westergaard was at home in Aarhus when a man broke in and threatened him. He pressed a panic button and police entered the house and shot the man.
Danish officials said the intruder was a 28-year-old Somali linked to the radical Islamist al-Shabab militia.
The cartoon, printed in 2005, prompted violent protests the following year.
One of 12 cartoons published in the Danish newspaper Jyllands Posten, it depicted the Prophet Muhammad with a bomb in his turban.
In 2006 the paper apologised for the cartoons, but other European media reprinted them.
Danish embassies were then attacked by Muslims around the world and dozens killed in riots.
Mr Westergaard went into hiding amid threats to his life, but emerged last year saying he wanted to live as normal a life as possible.
His house has been heavily fortified and is under close police protection.

The cartoons prompted anti-Danish outrage across the Muslim world (over a singly issued political cartoon)

Police said the man had entered Mr Westergaard's house armed with a knife and had shouted in broken English that he wanted to kill him.
He said he had grabbed his five-year-old granddaughter and run to a specially designed panic room where he raised the alarm.
Mr Westergaard told Jyllands Posten he was shocked that his granddaughter had witnessed the attack.
He has now been taken to a safe location, but said defiantly that he would be back, the newspaper reported.
Jakob Scharf, who heads the Danish intelligence service Pet, said the attack was "terror related" and that the suspected assailant has close contacts to Somalia's al-Shabab group.
He had been under surveillance for activities unrelated to Mr Westergaard, Mr Scharf said.
Police said he was shot in the knee and the shoulder after threatening officers who tried to arrest him. Preben Nielsen of Aarhus police, said the man was seriously hurt but his life was not in danger.
The BBC's Malcolm Brabant, who interviewed Mr Westergaard when he emerged from hiding, says the incident will raise questions about security measures put in place by the Danish secret service to protect the artist.
Islamic militants have placed a $1m price on Mr Westergaard's head.
Although he is one of 12 cartoonists whose drawings of the Prophet were published in Jyllands-Posten, he has the highest profile, our correspondent says.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1223104.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1223104.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim) http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1223148.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1223148.page GMT Re:Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)
Seriousaly, that's incrediably stupid. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1223245.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1223245.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim) http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1223248.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1223248.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)

Kilkrazy wrote:Salman Rushdie had police protection for years following publication of The Satanic Verses.

I remember reading about that, It was in TIME I think. They were pretty pissed at him for a while. I wonder how long they'll be after this Westergaard guy? Come on islamic extremists, its just a cartoon. I just don't get how thats worth trying to kill someone in front of their grandaughter.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1223265.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1223265.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)

ShumaGorath wrote:The Koran is not particularly different from either the New Testament nor the Old in it's depictions or calls for violence,

I feel I need to correct this statement, as the New testement doesn't do any "calling" for violence. In fact there is a "calling" for peace. The violence "called for" in the Old testement was directly related to laws(mostly religious), much like our laws "call for" violence against perpetrators of the law. Like for instance death penalty for murder.

GG

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1223285.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1223285.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)

Not really interested in getting into a debate about specific passages, but the old testament is rife with law code and story passages dealing with taking villaiges, taking slaves, slaughtering peoples, and committing regicide. The old testament treats genocide and invasion calmly and legalistically. The new testament is considerably less avocational in it's violent traditions but it hardly avoids the subjects of defending the faith and holding strong under heretical oppression.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1223294.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1223294.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim) http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1223416.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1223416.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)

ShumaGorath wrote:Not really interested in getting into a debate about specific passages, but the old testament is rife with law code and story passages dealing with taking villages, taking slaves, slaughtering peoples, and committing regicide. The old testament treats genocide and invasion calmly and legalistically. The new testament is considerably less avocational in it's violent traditions but it hardly avoids the subjects of defending the faith and holding strong under heretical oppression.

You can't make blanket statements like you did with impunity, that is just ridiculous. You either deliberately ignore the teachings of Christ and the apostles or you just don't know them. Very simply, the Old Testament is a history of the Hebrews and an outline of their relationship with God. Nowhere in the New Testament is there any call for violence by the followers of Christ, in fact Christ demands peace from His followers. Also, there is no Scripture to support your claims that the New Testament even mildly endorses violence in defense of the Faith or heretical oppression. Both are ideas that are created by man, not by God. I know you said you didn't want to argue, but I won't let you simply post false information.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1223443.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1223443.page GMT Re:Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim) http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1223453.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1223453.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)
One thing that irritates me is that once these pricks are done in jail, they are just released back into the peaceful and prosperous Western nation. He wants an Islamic state, let him go play in one. Perhaps he can take up piracy.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1223457.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1223457.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim) MGS is spot on.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1223507.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1223507.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)
One tries to blow a plane up and sets himself on fire.
Another enters the home of the guy he wants to kill (with a knife) and then threatens him, allowing said intended victim to escape.

They are so inept the organisations must be really scraping the bottom of the barrel.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1223682.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1223682.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)

JEB_Stuart wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:Not really interested in getting into a debate about specific passages, but the old testament is rife with law code and story passages dealing with taking villages, taking slaves, slaughtering peoples, and committing regicide. The old testament treats genocide and invasion calmly and legalistically. The new testament is considerably less avocational in it's violent traditions but it hardly avoids the subjects of defending the faith and holding strong under heretical oppression.

And you've read the Koran?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1223836.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1223836.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)
G]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1223842.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1223842.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim) http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1223846.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1223846.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)

Green Blow Fly wrote:Muhammed was inspired by a prophet named Jesus.

G

Yes and no, he was inspired by all previous prophets, as all muslims are, but he taught a writ that was quite different from what jesus laid down.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fifty wrote:"How dare you draw a cartoon implying Islam is violent! Now die for your crime!"

Actually the big issue was that you're not allowed to illustrate mohammed, it's a heretical insult.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1223848.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1223848.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim) http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1223876.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1223876.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)

ShumaGorath wrote:

I feel I need to correct this statement, as the New testement doesn't do any "calling" for violence. In fact there is a "calling" for peace. The violence "called for" in the Old testement was directly related to laws(mostly religious), much like our laws "call for" violence against perpetrators of the law. Like for instance death penalty for murder.

Bottom line Shuma you made an ignorant comment by including the New testament in your list. Then you followed it up with more ignorance by trying to defend your initial ignorance, by not wanting to admit you were wrong. I will give you, that there was a lot of violence in the Old Testament, however you show a complete lack of understanding of what and why that violence took place. The slaughter that took place was usually a part of God's judgement upon another idol worshiping nation, or upon Israel itself for Idol worship.

You made a mistake by trying to equalize New Testament teaching with Old Testament teaching with Koranic Teaching. As far as I know nothing in the Christian Bible(Old and new testament) Calls for slaying infidels like the Koran does.

GG]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1223879.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1223879.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)

Not really, but like I said, I really don't feel like getting into a debate about scriptures with someone who would never agree regardless.

The slaughter that took place was usually a part of God's judgement upon another idol worshiping nation, or upon Israel itself for Idol worship.

Entirely inaccurate, especially given the law codes specifically laid down for the orderly taking of villages and the situations in which the villagers should be killed (when your book has instructions on how to commit siege warfare on townships then you probably shouldn't defend it's writings as peaceful).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1223898.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1223898.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)

ShumaGorath wrote:
Not really, but like I said, I really don't feel like getting into a debate about scriptures with someone who would never agree regardless.

That's fine, but don't expect to come on here and make an error filled statement and not be challenged.

Shuma, you should really quit while you are behind my friend. :-) Playing the , "I'm gonna make an error filled comment, then not defend myself because I'm wrong, to save face" card makes you look shallow.

ShumaGorath wrote:
Entirely inaccurate, especially given the law codes specifically laid down for the orderly taking of villages and the situations in which the villagers should be killed (when your book has instructions on how to commit siege warfare on townships then you probably shouldn't defend it's writings as peaceful).

Now you are deperately grasping at straws because of your refusal to admit you are wrong. It may be true about "instructions on how to commit siege wafare" I don't if it is, I haven't heard of it. Are you talking about the taking of Jericho? Can you provide a reference?

But anyway, you talk about me defending "my book"'s writing as peacefull, when you are perfectly aware I was defending the new testament's writings as peacfull, and not the Old testament writings as peacefull. I was attempting to explain why the old testament had violence in it as part of God's wrathful judgement in places.

GG]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1223924.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1223924.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)

generalgrog wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:
I feel I need to correct this statement, as the New testement doesn't do any "calling" for violence. In fact there is a "calling" for peace. The violence "called for" in the Old testement was directly related to laws(mostly religious), much like our laws "call for" violence against perpetrators of the law. Like for instance death penalty for murder.

Not really interested in getting into a debate about specific passages, but the old testament is rife with law code and story passages dealing with taking villaiges, taking slaves, slaughtering peoples, and committing regicide. The old testament treats genocide and invasion calmly and legalistically. The new testament is considerably less avocational in it's violent traditions but it hardly avoids the subjects of defending the faith and holding strong under heretical oppression.

you kind of bit yourself there with your own ignorance, a comman misconception is that the koran says these things, three importants words do not appear in the koran: 1. war, 2.holy, 3.infidels. these terrorist groups use the islamic faith as a front for their xenophobic hate, not just of the west but also of other muslim groups. the upper members of these organisations use easily moulded people to carry out their hate. the koran is a book of peace, these guys are using it as a front, just like hardline christian groups that protest at soldiers funerals in the US saying that god is punishing the US for this, that, or the over.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1223928.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1223928.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)
Mohamed Atta = Architecture Degree
Khalid Sheikh Mohammed = Mechanical Engineering Degree
Marwan al-Shehhi = language institute in Bonn, Germany
Mohand al-Shehri = Imam Muhammed Ibn Saud Islamic University in Abha
Hani Hanjour= University of Arizona
Majed Moqed = King Fahd University's Faculty of Administration and Economics
Ziad Jarrah = aerospace engineering at the Fachhochschule (University of Applied Sciences) in Hamburg
Abderraouf Jdey = studied biology at the Université de Montréal
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1223942.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1223942.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)

Zip Napalm wrote:Yes Shum the "socioeconomic factors".

Mohamed Atta = Architecture Degree
Khalid Sheikh Mohammed = Mechanical Engineering Degree
Marwan al-Shehhi = language institute in Bonn, Germany
Mohand al-Shehri = Imam Muhammed Ibn Saud Islamic University in Abha
Hani Hanjour= University of Arizona
Majed Moqed = King Fahd University's Faculty of Administration and Economics
Ziad Jarrah = aerospace engineering at the Fachhochschule (University of Applied Sciences) in Hamburg
Abderraouf Jdey = studied biology at the Université de Montréal

You don't send stupid people on missions of importance, and muslim dominant countries are by in large poor in infrastructure and natural wealth. They are also largely victims of colonial era restructuring.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1223952.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1223952.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)

ShumaGorath wrote:

Zip Napalm wrote:Yes Shum the "socioeconomic factors".

Mohamed Atta = Architecture Degree
Khalid Sheikh Mohammed = Mechanical Engineering Degree
Marwan al-Shehhi = language institute in Bonn, Germany
Mohand al-Shehri = Imam Muhammed Ibn Saud Islamic University in Abha
Hani Hanjour= University of Arizona
Majed Moqed = King Fahd University's Faculty of Administration and Economics
Ziad Jarrah = aerospace engineering at the Fachhochschule (University of Applied Sciences) in Hamburg
Abderraouf Jdey = studied biology at the Université de Montréal

Your right, The Saudi's really are victims of colonialism.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1223960.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1223960.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)

Zip Napalm wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:
Zip Napalm wrote:Yes Shum the "socioeconomic factors".

Mohamed Atta = Architecture Degree
Khalid Sheikh Mohammed = Mechanical Engineering Degree
Marwan al-Shehhi = language institute in Bonn, Germany
Mohand al-Shehri = Imam Muhammed Ibn Saud Islamic University in Abha
Hani Hanjour= University of Arizona
Majed Moqed = King Fahd University's Faculty of Administration and Economics
Ziad Jarrah = aerospace engineering at the Fachhochschule (University of Applied Sciences) in Hamburg
Abderraouf Jdey = studied biology at the Université de Montréal

You don't send stupid people on missions of importance, and muslim dominant countries are by in large poor in infrastructure and natural wealth. They are also largely victims of colonial era restructuring.

Your right, The Saudi's really are victims of colonialism.

I'm glad saudi arabia is the entire middle east. In a thread about a somalian muslim. Days after a failed attack by another somalian, who was in contact with a Yemenese terror cell, which was an offshoot of an Afghan brand, which trains it's recruits in Iraq and pakistan.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1223973.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1223973.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)

ShumaGorath wrote:

Zip Napalm wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:
Zip Napalm wrote:Yes Shum the "socioeconomic factors".

Mohamed Atta = Architecture Degree
Khalid Sheikh Mohammed = Mechanical Engineering Degree
Marwan al-Shehhi = language institute in Bonn, Germany
Mohand al-Shehri = Imam Muhammed Ibn Saud Islamic University in Abha
Hani Hanjour= University of Arizona
Majed Moqed = King Fahd University's Faculty of Administration and Economics
Ziad Jarrah = aerospace engineering at the Fachhochschule (University of Applied Sciences) in Hamburg
Abderraouf Jdey = studied biology at the Université de Montréal

You don't send stupid people on missions of importance, and muslim dominant countries are by in large poor in infrastructure and natural wealth. They are also largely victims of colonial era restructuring.

Your right, The Saudi's really are victims of colonialism.

Entire Middle East? No, just an example.
I just wanted to point out that extremism via poverty is a shallow argument and not something you usually engage in.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224005.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224005.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)

ShumaGorath wrote:And you've read the Koran?

Why as a matter of fact I have. Before I became a Christian I went out of my way to read the texts from all of the worlds major religions to find the Truth. Your claims are dead wrong.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224017.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224017.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)
G]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224019.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224019.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)

BluntmanDC wrote:you kind of bit yourself there with your own ignorance, a common misconception is that the koran says these things, three important words do not appear in the koran: 1. war, 2.holy, 3.infidels. these terrorist groups use the islamic faith as a front for their xenophobic hate, not just of the west but also of other muslim groups. the upper members of these organisations use easily moulded people to carry out their hate. the koran is a book of peace

The Koran does have several verses that command its followers to kill all disbelievers and idol worshipers. For example:

"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you" - Surah 9:123

"Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful." - Surah 9:5
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224022.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224022.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)

Entire Middle East? No, just an example.
I just wanted to point out that extremism via poverty is a shallow argument and not something you usually engage in.

Well firstly, they were largely educated on the tax dollar of the countries they were educated in, and then returned to home countries with a per capita earning far, far less than the countries they planned to strike at.

The level of education within the upper echelons of an organization doesn't really speak to the socio economic factors that gave rise to the organization in the first place. Most recruits for muslim extremist groups are from strife ridden or poor areas with few prospects for future improvement. The advent of foreign educated extremists is an indication that the groups value the capability to blend in within a secular environment, and maintaining faith through trials in a foreign and infidel country marks one as a strong prospect as a martyr in a mission of importance.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224028.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224028.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim) http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224037.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224037.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)

ShumaGorath wrote:

Fifty wrote:"How dare you draw a cartoon implying Islam is violent! Now die for your crime!"

Actually the big issue was that you're not allowed to illustrate mohammed, it's a heretical insult.

Thing is, there are plenty of depictions of Mohammed, even by Muslims. Sure, some branches of Islam may not like depictions of him, but it was not the simple fact of him being shown in a picture that was the fuss, it was they way he was shown. Although, even having it your way, it still sounds pretty ridiculous;

"How dare you draw a picture of Mohammed! Now die for your crime!"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224038.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224038.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)

ShumaGorath wrote:

Entire Middle East? No, just an example.
I just wanted to point out that extremism via poverty is a shallow argument and not something you usually engage in.

Then why do the other poverty wracked areas of the world not engage in the same type of behaviour?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224053.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224053.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)

Zip Napalm wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:
Entire Middle East? No, just an example.
I just wanted to point out that extremism via poverty is a shallow argument and not something you usually engage in.

Well firstly, they were largely educated on the tax dollar of the countries they were educated in, and then returned to home countries with a per capita earning far, far less than the countries they planned to strike at.

The level of education within the upper echelons of an organization doesn't really speak to the socio economic factors that gave rise to the organization in the first place. Most recruits for muslim extremist groups are from strife ridden or poor areas with few prospects for future improvement. The advent of foreign educated extremists is an indication that the groups value the capability to blend in within a secular environment, and maintaining faith through trials in a foreign and infidel country marks one as a strong prospect as a martyr in a mission of importance.

Then why do the other poverty wracked areas of the world not engage in the same type of behaviour?

Umm.. They do? Some rebels were just bombed in columbia (on new years eve while they were celebrating). Africa has seen intercene strife for a century, and several ongoing ethnic cleansing campaigns are being fought as I type this. Asia is hardly free from strife, thailand, malaysia, india (maoists, goddamnit), and dozens of other countries are having plenty of issues. You... Don't keep up on current events do you?
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224074.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224074.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)

ShumaGorath wrote:

Zip Napalm wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:
Entire Middle East? No, just an example.
I just wanted to point out that extremism via poverty is a shallow argument and not something you usually engage in.

Well firstly, they were largely educated on the tax dollar of the countries they were educated in, and then returned to home countries with a per capita earning far, far less than the countries they planned to strike at.

The level of education within the upper echelons of an organization doesn't really speak to the socio economic factors that gave rise to the organization in the first place. Most recruits for muslim extremist groups are from strife ridden or poor areas with few prospects for future improvement. The advent of foreign educated extremists is an indication that the groups value the capability to blend in within a secular environment, and maintaining faith through trials in a foreign and infidel country marks one as a strong prospect as a martyr in a mission of importance.

Then why do the other poverty wracked areas of the world not engage in the same type of behaviour?

Only the current ones.

By behaviour, I mean go someplace else in the world and kill people.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224084.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224084.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)

By behaviour, I mean go someplace else in the world and kill people.

Engage in international terrorism? Or go to another country and kill someone. The drug trade does the latter, but is not the former, and stems largely from countries with underdeveloped economies.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224088.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224088.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)

ShumaGorath wrote:

By behaviour, I mean go someplace else in the world and kill people.

Engage in international terrorism? Or go to another country and kill someone. The drug trade does the latter, but is not the former, and stems largely from countries with underdeveloped economies.

You right in that drug cartels kill people for economic reasons. What motivates a poor man in Somalia to travel to Europe to kill a man that draws cartoons.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224099.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224099.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)
It went from discussing some dude being threatened over a comic to Shuma bashing on the Bible. Didn't see that one coming from miles away.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224113.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224113.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)

JEB_Stuart wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:you kind of bit yourself there with your own ignorance, a common misconception is that the koran says these things, three important words do not appear in the koran: 1. war, 2.holy, 3.infidels. these terrorist groups use the islamic faith as a front for their xenophobic hate, not just of the west but also of other muslim groups. the upper members of these organisations use easily moulded people to carry out their hate. the koran is a book of peace

Good examples, but still doesn't make my point wrong, the ones that are causing these problems are just hate mongers, that are a mix of xenophodic, sexist and nationalist (in the worst way), they are no different from white power movements or the IRA, they all use religion to hide their hate.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224124.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224124.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)

Fateweaver wrote:I see this thread getting a lock before midnight tonight (that's 10 hours and 39 minutes away if you aren't in the central US time zone).

It went from discussing some dude being threatened over a comic to Shuma bashing on the Bible. Didn't see that one coming from miles away.

...You live in a special world. Other than equating the books together, what exactly did I do to bash the bible?

You right in that drug cartels kill people for economic reasons. What motivates a poor man in Somalia to travel to Europe to kill a man that draws cartoons.

The same thing that causes Maoist rebels in india to kill 20 cops, or causes the Tamil Tigers continuously attempt secession for half a century, or causes nigerian witch doctors to attempt to slaughter and sell the limbs of Albinos. Strife, starvation, ecnomic hardship, and foreign influence cause people to find the strength to rebel, religion has always operated in a method that attracts those with little else, thus faith based doctrines + strife = violence. Its been a visible cycle for two thousand years, secularism flourishes during times of economic and social success, religious extremism (as well as organized crime and social strife) flourishes during times of economic and social downturn. Both are the effects of success and failure, not the causes.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224140.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224140.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)
G]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224144.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224144.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)

Green Blow Fly wrote:I have asked the mod team to lock this thread. We need to band together against this sort of gak really.

G

Go troll a different forum, when you manage to post something with more than two contentless sentences you'll get to start reporting threads.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224147.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224147.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)
G]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224151.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224151.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim) OT Forum is, believe it or not, subject to all the same rules as the rest of Dakka Dakka.

Please remember this, or threads get locked, users get suspended, the sky rains blood, etc.

Thanks!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224203.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224203.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)

BluntmanDC wrote:

JEB_Stuart wrote:
BluntmanDC wrote:you kind of bit yourself there with your own ignorance, a common misconception is that the koran says these things, three important words do not appear in the koran: 1. war, 2.holy, 3.infidels. these terrorist groups use the islamic faith as a front for their xenophobic hate, not just of the west but also of other muslim groups. the upper members of these organisations use easily moulded people to carry out their hate. the koran is a book of peace
The Koran does have several verses that command its followers to kill all disbelievers and idol worshipers. For example:

"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you" - Surah 9:123

"Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful." - Surah 9:5

(Or the unionist paramilitary organisations?)

On topic, that's probably the risk you run when you take the piss out of people who are insane. Glad yer man didn't get hurt though.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224233.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224233.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)
Let's not forget that the bible got translated and probably a lot of stuff changed/misinterpreted by scribes and monks, so it's further away from the original one than the Koran.

Still, whatever the book you read that dictates how you look at people, society, economy, and morals, the benefits of a catholic upbringing allow most of us to have a less extreme point of view regarding our beliefs.
I doubt anyone here would try to kill someone because they drew Jesus. Or made a joke about it. Or named a bear after it.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224238.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224238.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)

ShumaGorath wrote:

Fateweaver wrote:I see this thread getting a lock before midnight tonight (that's 10 hours and 39 minutes away if you aren't in the central US time zone).

It went from discussing some dude being threatened over a comic to Shuma bashing on the Bible. Didn't see that one coming from miles away.

...You live in a special world. Other than equating the books together, what exactly did I do to bash the bible?

You right in that drug cartels kill people for economic reasons. What motivates a poor man in Somalia to travel to Europe to kill a man that draws cartoons.

You still don't address the motivation of the individual. What was a Somali in Demark attempting to rebel against?

I'll add that the secular violence of the 20th century has put the religeous violence of the past to shame.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224265.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224265.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)

generalgrog wrote: however you show a complete lack of understanding of what and why that violence took place.

What and why are irrelevant to a comment meant to elucidate the presence of violence in a text.

You're having a problem internalizing that comment because you have some sort of problem with violence as a whole. Your instinct to inviolate your faith is leading you to react harshly to something that was no more than a bare statement of fact.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224311.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224311.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)
"I'll add that the secular violence of the 20th century has put the religeous violence of the past to shame."

Learn history, please!"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224313.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224313.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)

What was a Somali in Demark attempting to rebel against?

The corruption of western cultural imperialism? He was clearly not of sound mind, though the man did have a million dollar bounty on his head, so it could be argued he was also motivated by profit.

I'll add that the secular violence of the 20th century has put the religeous violence of the past to shame.

It always does. Militaries are at their best when they are national and fairly secular in intent and founding. There have been a few examples of religious states weilding strong military power (the crusades for instance), but most examples of world class militaries were fairly secular (Alexander the great, the Nazis, the Hunns, the (early) Roman empire, the modern U.S. military, etc).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224316.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224316.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)

sexiest_hero wrote:Sigh, I'm a democrat christian, but even I know that the bible, like the koran and any other holy book can and will be used for evil. People don't give a good g-d damn what the verse says. Jesus says to give to the poor and give more than what you are asked even if some one takes from you. The popes of old used the bible to kill women who knew math, and "tame the savages". Imagine what would happen if a muslim went to rome and drew The virgin mary in a orgy then coming up with a lie to jesus's father, or the pope and a bunch of nuns getting it on, in the NY times or the paper of your choice.

"I'll add that the secular violence of the 20th century has put the religeous violence of the past to shame."

Learn history, please!"

Which part?
The Great War?
WWII?
Five Year plans the USSR in the 1920's and 30's?
1937 invasion of China?
Great Leap Forward?
Cultural Revolution?
Korean War?

Spare me your indignation. Does religion have a corner on the violence market?

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224337.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224337.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)

JEB_Stuart wrote:The Koran does have several verses that command its followers to kill all disbelievers and idol worshipers. For example:

"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you" - Surah 9:123

That's only a command to kill if you want it to be.

JEB_Stuart wrote:
"Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful." - Surah 9:5

Idolatry in Islam generally relates to those who direct their worship towards men, as opposed to God. People who worship God in accordance with another monotheistic tradition are not considered to be idolators.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224345.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224345.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim) http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224349.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224349.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)

ShumaGorath wrote:

What was a Somali in Demark attempting to rebel against?

The corruption of western cultural imperialism? He was clearly not of sound mind, though the man did have a million dollar bounty on his head, so it could be argued he was also motivated by profit.

Ideology, crazy or greed. Fair enough, but now your just guessing.
Maybe he was just an man beset by evil intent of his own making?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224350.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224350.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)

Zip Napalm wrote:
Which part?
The Great War?
WWII?
Five Year plans the USSR in the 1920's and 30's?
1937 invasion of China?
Great Leap Forward?
Cultural Revolution?
Korean War?

Spare me your indignation. Does religion have a corner on the violence market?

This is the part where I come in and point out that religion turns on the presence of metaphysical beliefs; where 'metaphysical' is a philosophical concept, and not something most of you have paid any attention to.

The 5 year plans of the USSR? Religious.
The Great Leap Forward? Religious.
Cultural Revolution? Religious.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224351.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224351.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)

The 5 year plans of the USSR? Religious.

Wasn't the five year plan just the rapid industrialization of the country and redistribution of farm labor? It worked didn't it?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224354.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224354.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)

dogma wrote:

Zip Napalm wrote:
Which part?
The Great War?
WWII?
Five Year plans the USSR in the 1920's and 30's?
1937 invasion of China?
Great Leap Forward?
Cultural Revolution?
Korean War?

Spare me your indignation. Does religion have a corner on the violence market?

Are you speaking of a broad definition of faith?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

ShumaGorath wrote:
The 5 year plans of the USSR? Religious.

Wasn't the five year plan just the rapid industrialization of the country and redistribution of farm labor? It worked didn't it?

Sure. If you survived the famine. The dead didn't notice.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224355.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224355.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)

ShumaGorath wrote:
Wasn't the five year plan just the rapid industrialization of the country and redistribution of farm labor? It worked didn't it?

Yeah, but it was predicated on a metaphysical belief which allowed for the establishment of certainty in the future. At least that's what the rhetoric surrounding it leads to.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224361.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224361.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)

Sure. If you survived the famine. The dead didn't notice.

I don't think the five year plan was all that caring. It was meant to force advancement, not encourage.

Yeah, but it was predicated on a metaphysical belief which allowed for the establishment of certainty in the future. At least that's what the rhetoric surrounding it leads to.

Thats an incredibly broad definition of religious.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224362.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224362.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)

Zip Napalm wrote:
Are you speaking of a broad definition of faith?

Somewhat. Faith is closely tied to the metaphysical as what you choose to believe has a great deal to do with what can be known.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

ShumaGorath wrote:
Thats an incredibly broad definition of religious.

That's the idea. I find it more illustrative, and accurate, than "religion is anything attached to God".]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224366.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224366.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)

That's the idea. I find it more illustrative, and accurate, than "religion is anything attached to God".

Don't we already have words and phrases that can cover that ground without reapropriating something that has a common usage though?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224372.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224372.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)

ShumaGorath wrote:
Don't we already have words and phrases that can cover that ground without reapropriating something that has a common usage though?

We do, but the relationship through a single word establishes a comparison which is useful when confronted with Harris-style atheism.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224378.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224378.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim) But I get SO TIRED of the "Who's worse" tit for tat between atheists and religious folks on this forum.
Comparing genocide figures to figure out which "side" is worse...gah.

'Course I've only myself to blame for continuing to read the threads. But a lot of the time you can learn something, people just need to cool their jets a bit and not be so damn defensive all the time.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224379.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224379.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)

Da Boss wrote:This isn't meant to be an attack on anyone here.
But I get SO TIRED of the "Who's worse" tit for tat between atheists and religious folks on this forum.
Comparing genocide figures to figure out which "side" is worse...gah.

'Course I've only myself to blame for continuing to read the threads. But a lot of the time you can learn something, people just need to cool their jets a bit and not be so damn defensive all the time.

Agreed.
I have no idea why I read all of that but I cant see why people even bother starting a discussion about things they would never be willing to change their views on. Why try to argue things that are completely irrelevant to what the OP was about, just to get into the same endless discussion that people have been having, for no good reason, for hundreds of years.

I'm never getting the time back i spent reading that. and for that reason i'm annoyed]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224417.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224417.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)
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G]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224431.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224431.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim) http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224563.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224563.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)

Green Blow Fly wrote:On the topic of idolatry, consider certain inalienable objects such as the Statue of Liberty, the Sphinx, inside the Washington Monument, Mount Rushmore, the Buddha in Hydrabad, General Shaw in Turret Square, there are many others. Why should their presence bring a need for violins?

Because some nice music is just the thing for looking at land marks.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224568.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224568.page GMT Re:Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim) PM me on exactly which so called 'holy' books are on your 'Do Not Mock' list. I want to know what self-verifying subjects are off limits. I think you owe me a ban.
And on topic:

I find it troubling that a person of any faith is willing to justify violence over a cartoon. It would seem to me that any rational person would be more concerned about discussing why a cartoon was worth violence rather than "well at least it wasn't *my* faith" fingerpointing.

The catch to this is 'terror'. There's a certain demented sense to this - "make a cartoon we don't like, and we'll kill you and your children" is a powerful statement. A moment of levity on a cocktail napkin suddenly has potential bloody repercussions. Moreover the application of such (intended) atrocity - a man in his prime attacking an old man and a child - implies a willingness to use overwhelming force. Machiavelli and Sun Tzu pointed folks in this very direction (and Orson Scott Card for that matter. Ender was a bastard). This of course presumes that this wasn't one man's distilled crazy.

I wonder what other liberties people are willing to sacrifice for fear of axe wielding crazies. Will we stop reading Sutter Caine, driving from Joliet to Chicago to save an Orphanage because of this sort of thing or stand up as world citizens and cry 'no more'? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224681.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224681.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)

I find it troubling that a person of any faith is willing to justify violence over a cartoon.

All faiths are capable of rationalizing all forms of violence. It's easily within human capacity to rationalize killing for almost any cause, it's why we punish offenders for doing so. The human brain is not a perfect thing, just as one can kill for money, duty, or honor they can also do so for faith or out of anger. The reasons are fairly meaningless, with the right stimulus a person can be made to kill regardless of the actual meaning or nature of the offense (ask anyone in blackwater, traveling across half the world to kill someone for money is all to common).

I wonder what other liberties people are willing to sacrifice for fear of axe wielding crazies. Will we stop reading Sutter Caine, driving from Joliet to Chicago to save an Orphanage because of this sort of thing or stand up as world citizens and cry 'no more'?

I'm not sure what you mean. No liberties were reduced, and the cartoon has been shown hundreds of times. Hell, I saw it just yesterday (again) a year after it was originally created in the news. If you mean that mans specific liberties, well then you're probably going to have to take that up with the mufti that issued the fatwa, and the extremist organization that put up the million dollar bounty.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224708.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224708.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)

Fifty wrote:"How dare you draw a cartoon implying Islam is violent! Now die for your crime!"

QFT sigged]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224709.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224709.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)
G]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224809.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224809.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)

Green Blow Fly wrote:I don't think that you can say anyone could be convinced to kill. I'm certain a lot of people will never kill and that's a good thing too. Violence is the last resort for those unenlightened.

G

As a basic function of the brains drive to survive anyone can be put into a situation where they would kill, from there it's a matter of controlling factors determining what the actual reasoning is behind the reaction. Certainly it's much, much harder to get some to kill, and indeed given enough learned behavior it could be next to impossible (society is meant to instill this pacifistic behavior as a default, though it does a bad job, human nature is violent we are not a pacifistic species). But the capacity for violence exists within every capable person.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224812.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224812.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)

ShumaGorath wrote:All faiths are capable of rationalizing all forms of violence.

Making them possibly equally hypocritical? This should present rational people with less comfort. If 'faithful' people are somehow enriched by faith (leaving questions about the value of others) then shouldn't they be better than this?

I'm not sure what you mean.

Nobody's gone out to put more than a few sharp objects in John Carpenter (Sutter Caine). Belushi and Akroyd (Joliet-Chicago road trip) seem relatively unharmed - minus the OD.

No liberties were reduced

Really? No special treatment for Islam here none at all.Nothing to see here. Nobody gets special treatment None at all. Although this one might be a tad unfair.

If Islamic Extremists haven't become the most recent bogeymen have I been reading the wrong news sources? (I concede Malkin is only useful as an aggregator.) Islam doesn't get other Islamic criticism, yet Christians taking issue with abortion clinics are just isolated crazies. (Not to derail on the ethics of said medical procedure - it has little relevance here beyond extremism.) Christians can call each other crazies, but there's not a whole lot of Muslim Outrage published about this sort of misbehavior.

edit: Link fixing. laugh at some, mock others at your leisure]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224836.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1224836.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)
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Destrado wrote:Let's not forget that the bible got translated and probably a lot of stuff changed/misinterpreted by scribes and monks, so it's further away from the original one than the Koran.

No.... lets DO forget this, because it's blatantly not true to say that it's "further away from the original". You have no ground to make such a claim since you don't know what you are talking about or you wouldn't have made it. Yes there were some minor changes that do not effect major doctrines of orthodoxy. But minor changes and differences does not equate to an Ordinal change, making it "further away from the original" as you claim.

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dogma wrote:
generalgrog wrote: however you show a complete lack of understanding of what and why that violence took place.

What and why are irrelevant to a comment meant to elucidate the presence of violence in a text.

You're having a problem internalizing that comment because you have some sort of problem with violence as a whole. Your instinct to inviolate your faith is leading you to react harshly to something that was no more than a bare statement of fact.

OK where are there "calls for violence" in the new testament, that would make that a statement of fact?

My instinct had nothing to do with what you call "inviolating my faith" but more to do with not wanting someone that doesn't know the new testement, to be fooled into thinking something was there (like calls for violence in the new testament) that clearly isn't. Stop trying to psychoanalyze me Dogma, your very bad at it, and especially bad at being an internet shrink. :-)

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generalgrog wrote:
OK where are there "calls for violence" in the new testament, that would make that a statement of fact?

Matthew 10:34-36

34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

You can read that passage as a metaphor for the familial nature of all mankind, or you can read it as an exultation of violence in the service of God. Essentially the same way one can read the more violent passages in the Koran.

generalgrog wrote:
My instinct had nothing to do with what you call "inviolating my faith" but more to do with not wanting someone that doesn't know the new testement, to be fooled into thinking something was there (like calls for violence in the new testament) that clearly isn't.

Except it is. You might not adhere to the more violent meaning, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Hence the point about speaking against anything you perceive as being profane.

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Oldgrue wrote: Christians can call each other crazies, but there's not a whole lot of Muslim Outrage published about this sort of misbehavior.

To be fair, most Muslims don't speak or write in English.

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dogma wrote:That's only a command to kill if you want it to be.

No, it isn't a polite suggestion. Trying to reason otherwise, especially in context, is almost stupidly obtuse.

dogma wrote:Idolatry in Islam generally relates to those who direct their worship towards men, as opposed to God. People who worship God in accordance with another monotheistic tradition are not considered to be idolaters.

Not true. Muslim fundamentalists will consider any graven image, ie any painting or sculpture of anything that isn't an abstract idea, as a violation of the 10 Commandments, and therefore idolatry. Even still, moderate muslims will consider the use of the Cross, Crucifix, statues of saints, etc. as idolatry. So to say that it excludes all followers of monotheistic religion is quite simply false.

dogma wrote:Matthew 10:34-36

So you took a passage that is a parable for how His message will cause problems between families. He does not condone violence by any interpretation. Also, He was quoting Scripture, not telling you to kill your family if they don't believe.

dogma wrote:You can read that passage as a metaphor for the familial nature of all mankind, or you can read it as an exultation of violence in the service of God.

No you can't, but then again, you do largely ignore orthodoxy in order to try and declare your twisted reading as valid. Let me say this loud and clear: The interpretation you have suggested for Matthew 10:34-36 is not embraced by any Church that adheres to any sense of orthodoxy, and not (to my knowledge) even by any church that is in a state of heresy or apostasy.

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dogma wrote:

generalgrog wrote:
OK where are there "calls for violence" in the new testament, that would make that a statement of fact?

Matthew 10:34-36

34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

True that. And isn't there a certain story where Jesus beat up the merchants in the temple and drove them out?

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JEB_Stuart wrote:

dogma wrote:Matthew 10:34-36
So you took a passage that is a parable for how His message will cause problems between families. He does not condone violence by any interpretation. Also, He was quoting Scripture, not telling you to kill your family if they don't believe.

dogma wrote:You can read that passage as a metaphor for the familial nature of all mankind, or you can read it as an exultation of violence in the service of God.
No you can't, but then again, you do largely ignore orthodoxy in order to try and declare your twisted reading as valid. Let me say this loud and clear: The interpretation you have suggested for Matthew 10:34-36 is not embraced by any Church that adheres to any sense of orthodoxy, and not (to my knowledge) even by any church that is in a state of heresy or apostasy.

The Bible is the word of God, no? So if the Churches are refusing to embrace the Word of God, they are clearly not following his will...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1225263.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1225263.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)

Emperors Faithful wrote:True that. And isn't there a certain story where Jesus beat up the merchants in the temple and drove them out?

Considering Christ is God incarnate, and they were defiling His temple, I think He had a right...

Emperors Faithful wrote:The Bible is the word of God, no? So if the Churches are refusing to embrace the Word of God, they are clearly not following his will...

That comment doesn't even make sense. You are assuming Dogma presents a valid interpretation, which it isn't, and further you are assuming it is the only one that is right. Why does everyone assume the Bible has to be read completely literally? Such notions are foolish, and not to mention a product of Enlightenment philosophy, not of the Church.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1225275.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1225275.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)

JEB_Stuart wrote:No, it isn't a polite suggestion. Trying to reason otherwise, especially in context, is almost stupidly obtuse.

Does the precious like its emotion to originate from within? It must, because your draping the comment in your own aesthetics.

JEB_Stuart wrote:
Not true. Muslim fundamentalists will consider any graven image, ie any painting or sculpture of anything that isn't an abstract idea, as a violation of the 10 Commandments, and therefore idolatry. Even still, moderate muslims will consider the use of the Cross, Crucifix, statues of saints, etc. as idolatry. So to say that it excludes all followers of monotheistic religion is quite simply false.

No, quite true. Stop pretending as though a comment with the qualifier 'generally' is an absolute fact. I know its hard for you orthodox folk, but it can be done.

JEB_Stuart wrote:
So you took a passage that is a parable for how His message will cause problems between families. He does not condone violence by any interpretation. Also, He was quoting Scripture, not telling you to kill your family if they don't believe.

Any interpretation which you believe. Welcome to the world of the English language, in which words have meanings thats are wholly unintended.

JEB_Stuart wrote:
No you can't, but then again, you do largely ignore orthodoxy in order to try and declare your twisted reading as valid.

You don't understand validity if the phrase above is your common usage.

JEB_Stuart wrote:
Let me say this loud and clear: The interpretation you have suggested for Matthew 10:34-36 is not embraced by any Church that adheres to any sense of orthodoxy, and not (to my knowledge) even by any church that is in a state of heresy or apostasy.

That's nice. I don't care. I care about logic, and valid statements. Whether or not those relate to that which you believe is completely lacking in relevance. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1225292.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1225292.page GMT Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)

JEB_Stuart wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:True that. And isn't there a certain story where Jesus beat up the merchants in the temple and drove them out?

Considering Christ is God incarnate, and they were defiling His temple, I think He had a right...

I notice how you don't adress the issue that Jesus not only encouraged, but utilised violence himself. Regardless of the reasons or 'right'. A slight Catch 22 on his previous preaching.

Emperors Faithful wrote:The Bible is the word of God, no? So if the Churches are refusing to embrace the Word of God, they are clearly not following his will...
That comment doesn't even make sense. You are assuming Dogma presents a valid interpretation, which it isn't, and further you are assuming it is the only one that is right. Why does everyone assume the Bible has to be read completely literally? Such notions are foolish, and not to mention a product of Enlightenment philosophy, not of the Church.

I'm not.

I was demonstrating that such a dogmatic (pun not intended) approach easily leads to radical sects splitting off, which are NOT a true reflection of the mainstream religeon. (For both Islamic and Christian religeons)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1225294.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/272041/1225294.page GMT Re:Attempt on the life of the Danish Mohammed Bombhead Cartoonist (by a somalian muslim)
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