<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "2000 point Competitive Dark Elves List - Be Brutal!"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/93.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net 2000 point Competitive Dark Elves List - Be Brutal! Sorceress, Level 2, Dark Pegasus, Focus Familiar – 200
Death Hag, Cauldron of Blood – 200
Assassin with Additional Hand Weapon, Manbane, and Rune of Khaine – 146

5 Dark Riders, Repeater Crossbows, Musician – 117
5 Dark Riders, Repeater Crossbows, Musician – 117
5 Harpies – 55
5 Harpies – 55

7 Witch Elves – 70
5 Cold One Knights, Deathknight with Ring of Hotek, Standard Bearer with Warbanner– 217
8 Black Guard, Tower Master with Crimson Death, Standard Bearer with Standard of Murder – 195
5 Shades, Great Weapons, Light Armor - 95

War Hydra – 175

Total: 1999 points

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The idea is that any shooting will be forced to choose between the Black Guard (who will be wiped out if shot enough times, but with ItP should last a few turns) and the Hydra/Cold Ones coming to eat them. Either one will hurt a lot if they hit.

The Sorceresses will stay out of fire lanes, race around and zap anything they can. The shades will kill warmachine crew and get a combined flank charge when something hits. One unit of harpies will screen the witch elves and one will march-block/mage hunt, while the dark riders will just do their thing and be very sharp, rapid-firing thorns in the opponent's side.

Are there any problems anyone can see with this? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/273872/1250248.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/273872/1250248.page GMT 2000 point Competitive Dark Elves List - Be Brutal!
Sistine_Shrapnel wrote:Supreme Sorceress, Level 4, Lifetaker, Black Staff, Dark Steed – 357

Lifetaker is wasted since she is not Fast Cavalry. She can move like Fast Cavalry if she joins Dark Riders, but doesn't get to march and fire like them. But why would put her with Dark Riders anyway? Those guys are fantastic march blockers, war machine hunters, etc. Putting this sorceress with them makes them incredibly expensive and will be distracted from their job to make good use of her. Give this one the Focus Familiar and Pegasus, keep her out of harm's way and enjoy the fireworks. The pegasus is also nicer for her since she could fly and shoot if there were something worth aiming at.

Sorceress, Level 2, Dark Pegasus, Focus Familiar – 200

This is a much better setup for a Level 4 Sorceress because she does not benefit as much from things like Darkstar Cloak and Tome of Furion like a Lv.2 does. If you want a Sorceress on a Steed, put the Level 2 as that with either a Cloak or Tome.

Death Hag, Cauldron of Blood –

Your infantry line is too thin to really benefit from this. Units that can benefit from it don't need it, and at 2000pts and having a Lord choice, your points are better off spent on more cake instead of icing units like this.

Assassin with Additional Hand Weapon, Manbane, and Rune of Khaine – 146

Your infantry is too thin to benefit from this guy as much as you could with more bodies and then adding the Assassin as another surprise. Again, an icing unit when you don't have enough cake.

5 Dark Riders, Repeater Crossbows, Musician – 117
5 Dark Riders, Repeater Crossbows, Musician – 117

The musicians are handy, but not absolutely necessary. If you build your list without the musicians and at the end you have the points left over and nothing better to buy, then pick them up.

5 Harpies – 55
5 Harpies – 55

These guys don't count as Core, so right now you have a 2000pt list which required at least three Core units. If you cannot find points elsewhere to make room for another unit of Core, consider dropping these for another unit of Dark Riders with Crossbows for the same amount of points. I do love Harpies, but they are expendable when you need to make room for other necessary things.

7 Witch Elves – 70

These guys will get shot once, then ignored. If you want to bring Witches, bring at least 12 as a 6x2 with the Banner of Murder. The extra bodies help you get across the field while taking incoming fire and the Banner of Murder adds a nice punch to their poisoned blades. If you can find the points to put them at 7x2, the more the merrier.

5 Cold One Knights, Deathknight with Ring of Hotek, Standard Bearer with Warbanner– 217

Cold One Knights are very points-effective when naked, 135pts for a good bit of pain. You have added 82 points worth of goodies and gotten 1 attack, 2 combat res, and a ring that can go on someone else. If you are charging the front of a giant block of SCR and need the extra bonus from the banner and warbanner, you did something wrong. Hitting the flanks is what these guys are for and should not need the extra combat res, but your list can do a lot of good with 82 points elsewhere.

8 Black Guard, Tower Master with Crimson Death, Standard Bearer with Standard of Murder – 195

In case you were asking where those 82 points could be put, this is your answer. Kick these up to 14 and swap out for Standard of Hag Graef for some ASF Black Guard goodness. If you are really wanting that Ring of Hotek, it is better with these guys since Black Guard are your central fighting unit whereas the CoK are flank biters.

5 Shades, Great Weapons, Light Armor - 95

Drop the light armor; everything ignores a 6+ save. Even if they don't, it's only a 1/6 chance to save, not worth the points. If you have points left over, look into musicians for other units.

War Hydra – 175

Who doesn't love a Hydra? The people he marches, flames, and charges the next turn, that's who. But they don't matter, we're Dark Elves!

Total: 1999 points


Hope that helped! You have a lot of cuts you could make to save a lot of points and reassociate them to more bodies.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/273872/1250439.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/273872/1250439.page GMT Re:2000 point Competitive Dark Elves List - Be Brutal!
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Supreme Sorceress, Level 4, Lifetaker, Focus Familiar, Dark Pegasus - 360
Sorceress, Level 2, Darkstar Cloak, Dark Steed – 172
Death Hag with Cauldron of Blood - 200

5 Dark Riders, Repeater Crossbows, Musician – 117
5 Dark Riders, Repeater Crossbows, Musician – 117
5 Dark Riders, Repeater Crossbows, Musician – 117
5 Harpies – 55
9 Harpies - 99

14 Witch Elves, Standard Bearer with Banner of Murder - 175
5 Cold One Knights - 135
14 Black Guard, Tower Master with Ring of Hotek, Standard Bearer with Standard of Hag Graef – 270

War Hydra – 175

Total: 1992
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/273872/1251001.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/273872/1251001.page GMT Re:2000 point Competitive Dark Elves List - Be Brutal!
Too bad you dropped the shades. IMHO they are more useful than that oversized unit of harpies. I still like harpies, but compared to shades it shouldn't be a contest. 90 points for GW wielding scouts with Crossbows and WS and BS 5?; Yeah.... pretty good. If you trim here and there I think you can get a more optimized version done:

Supreme sorceress: Dark peg, focus familiar ~ 335
Sorceress: Tome of furion, seal of ghrond ~ 180
Death hag: Cauldron of blood ~ 200

Dark riders: RxB ~ 110
Dark riders: RxB ~ 110
Dark riders: RxB ~ 110
5 harpies: 55
5 harpies: 55

5 CoKs ~ 135
5 shades: GW ~ 90
14 witches: Std, banner of Murder ~ 175
14 BG: std, Banner of hag graef, champion, crimson death ~ 270

War hydra ~ 175

Total ~ 2000

Casting dice: 8, Dispel dice: 6 number of models: 73

So I got rid of the ring, and gave your champion a weapon that combined with his 3 attacks and ASF, hits as hard or harder than most heroes.

With a Lvl 2 wizard, having the tome is more important so you can get a spell that is more useful. With PoD you should have enough power dice, paying 25 points for a single dice, while not bad, isn't optimal. I couldn't quite make room for her to be on mount, but on foot isn't terrible. The problem being that the only unit she can join most likely is the black guard. So it is either that or run her on her own.

I got rid of the bow, since there really wasn't any room for it. If you really want it you can drop the seal of ghrond for it. Personally I have found the extra dice very useful, but it is a preference thing. (I face a fair amount of VC)

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/273872/1251123.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/273872/1251123.page GMT Re:2000 point Competitive Dark Elves List - Be Brutal!
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Supreme Sorceress, Level 4, Focus Familiar, Dark Pegasus - 330
Sorceress, Level 2, Tome of Furion, Dark Steed – 162
Death Hag with Cauldron of Blood - 200

5 Dark Riders, Repeater Crossbows, Musician – 117
5 Dark Riders, Repeater Crossbows, Musician – 117
5 Dark Riders, Repeater Crossbows, Musician – 117
5 Harpies – 55
5 Harpies - 55

14 Witch Elves, Standard Bearer with Banner of Murder - 175
5 Cold One Knights - 135
14 Black Guard, Tower Master with Crimson Death, Standard Bearer with Standard of Hag Graef – 270
5 Shades, Great Weapons - 90

Royal War Hydra – 175

Total: 1998

I think you're right about the ring - putting it on the BG would just redirect spells towards the CoKs and Hydra anyway.

I figured I'd give her the cloak to partially make up for losing the Black Staff. I'd agree that all those power dice aren't worth much if I don't get the right spells though, and I didn't have the points for it anyway.

The problem I have with the Seal is that it means giving up what I understand to be one of the main uses of Dark Riders: baiting charges, fleeing, then rallying. You mentioned VC - against them and other magic heavy opponents (which I'm sure I'll come up against at least once or twice in any given tournament) how much do you think I'll need the extra die versus the ability to draw charges?

Something else I'm wondering: do I really need that extra rank on the witch elves? It seems to me that its purpose is to act as a cushion against missile fire, but it also makes them a bigger, scarier, and therefore more high priority target. Whereas 7 little elves might slip under the radar so to speak, what with all the other nasties running about (and with the extra 70 points I could buy more magic defense and harpies). Alternately, I could split them into two units of 7, but then only one would benefit from the standard.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/273872/1251363.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/273872/1251363.page GMT Re:2000 point Competitive Dark Elves List - Be Brutal!
Sistine_Shrapnel wrote:The problem I have with the Seal is that it means giving up what I understand to be one of the main uses of Dark Riders: baiting charges, fleeing, then rallying. You mentioned VC - against them and other magic heavy opponents (which I'm sure I'll come up against at least once or twice in any given tournament) how much do you think I'll need the extra die versus the ability to draw charges?

You wouldn't give anything up regarding the Dark Riders because you wouldn't have the Sorceress on foot and in a unit of Dark Riders. You would either put her by herself when your opponent's lack of shooting allows this, or you would have her in a unit with other foot people, probably Black Guard. If you wanted a more fitting place for a foot Sorceress, you could drop one unit of Dark Riders and swap them out for ten Crossbowmen. Dropping the Seal lowers your magic defense a bit, but you'd still be ok for the most part. There are just times where you might find you wished you had one more, but it's usually not a huge deal.

Sistine_Shrapnel wrote:Something else I'm wondering: do I really need that extra rank on the witch elves? It seems to me that its purpose is to act as a cushion against missile fire, but it also makes them a bigger, scarier, and therefore more high priority target. Whereas 7 little elves might slip under the radar so to speak, what with all the other nasties running about (and with the extra 70 points I could buy more magic defense and harpies). Alternately, I could split them into two units of 7, but then only one would benefit from the standard.

Tiny squads of things with no armor save typically draw more fire than a moderately sized one. For instance, if you saw seven Swordmasters walking about, wouldn't you send a unit or two of your Dark Riders to pincushion them to death in a round? With fourteen of them, though, you have to concentrate fire a good deal more and since they're frenzied they don't care how many of their members fall to arrows. Now, granted, everyone wants Swordmasters dead, but Witch Elves tend to be lower priority unless they are viewed as easy points. They are easy points if someone concentrated firepower on them, but there are meaner things in your list to concentrate fire on so whittling down a unit of Witch Elves over the course of two or three turns isn't worth it as much.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/273872/1251898.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/273872/1251898.page GMT Re:2000 point Competitive Dark Elves List - Be Brutal!
I'm not sure what you mean by the seal making you lose the abilities of dark riders. Is it the fact that I sacrificed their music to pay for it? music changes your chances of passing the rally test by about 11 percent. You go from about 72 percent rally chances, to 83 percent. So if you flee 100 times, 11 of those times music will pay off. It is a pretty small percentage for me, but I tend to accept that my dark riders aren't going to survive most games. They just eat too much shooting and magic. (small somewhat expensive units tend to do this...) I file it under acceptable losses.

As for the usefulness of that one dispel dice: aginst VC it stops bound spells they tend to bring. Including a bound movement spell that can cause charges. It also can contribute to stopping normal cast movement spells, and occasionally you will be able to spend one or two against stopping them from making more models. The less dice you have, the less things you can try to stop. Most tourney players in my experience try to take at least one or two bound spells or low cast normal spells that should be dispelled if possible, but are meant to draw out dice. If you have more dice, then you can both counter those little spells, and still stop the big ones pretty regularly.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/273872/1251901.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/273872/1251901.page GMT 2000 point Competitive Dark Elves List - Be Brutal!
Why the crossbowmen? I can see how putting the sorcerer with them would make her more survivable, but the idea with putting her in the riders was that she'd use their mobility to stay out of fire lanes and get in range with her spells all the more quickly.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/273872/1252869.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/273872/1252869.page GMT 2000 point Competitive Dark Elves List - Be Brutal!
Sistine_Shrapnel wrote:Why the crossbowmen? I can see how putting the sorcerer with them would make her more survivable, but the idea with putting her in the riders was that she'd use their mobility to stay out of fire lanes and get in range with her spells all the more quickly.

It was in regards to a walking Sorceress. Putting a Sorceress with Dark Riders changes the purpose of that Dark Rider unit (usually). Most people don't like to bait and flee with a character in the unit, especially when a failed rally means no spell casting next turn. If you are using them simply for mobility and extra wounds, then they're just moderately pricey bodyguards which is fine so long as you are careful with them or feel a Lv.2 Sorceress is expendable given the proper situation.

Musicians in the Dark Rider units can be helpful if you do a great deal of baiting and fleeing. While it may come up every once in a while that you roll a nine instead of an eight, a lot of times those 21 points are happier being bodies or magic items that aid in making death upon your foes or preventing your own death. Some people swear by the musicians, the points are just better off elsewhere to others.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/273872/1253107.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/273872/1253107.page GMT Re:2000 point Competitive Dark Elves List - Be Brutal!
Putting her in a unit of dark riders makes that unit an extra important target. Not only is the unit more than double the cost of a normal unit (279, making it more costly than all other units) , it only has 2 more wounds, and its armor is still terrible. So when you lose your wizard to shooting, it will take a unit of dark riders with it. Personally I do sometimes run her in unit of dark riders, but often I just don't care and run her on her own. (I do this to draw fire from units I actually care about tactically) ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/273872/1253550.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/273872/1253550.page GMT 2000 point Competitive Dark Elves List - Be Brutal!
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Supreme Sorceress, Level 4, Focus Familiar, Dark Pegasus - 330
Sorceress, Level 2, Tome of Furion, Seal of Ghrond – 180
Death Hag with Cauldron of Blood - 200

10 Repeater Crossbowmen, Shields, Musician - 115
5 Dark Riders, Repeater Crossbows – 110
5 Dark Riders, Repeater Crossbows – 110
5 Harpies – 55
5 Harpies - 55

14 Witch Elves, Standard Bearer with Banner of Murder - 175
5 Cold One Knights - 135
14 Black Guard, Tower Master with Crimson Death, Standard Bearer with Standard of Hag Graef – 270
5 Shades, Great Weapons - 90

Royal War Hydra – 175

Total: 2000 points

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Huzzah! 2000 points on the nose - that's strangely satisfying. Now to rain death upon those worthless whelps who just won't give us our damn island back...
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/273872/1253822.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/273872/1253822.page GMT Re:2000 point Competitive Dark Elves List - Be Brutal! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/273872/1254148.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/273872/1254148.page GMT 2000 point Competitive Dark Elves List - Be Brutal!
Now where to put those extra 5 points...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/273872/1254251.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/273872/1254251.page GMT 2000 point Competitive Dark Elves List - Be Brutal!
Sistine_Shrapnel wrote:Actually, I think she may be off the good way. 225+35+15+50 = 325

Now where to put those extra 5 points...


What costs 15 points? I thought you chose focus familiar. I don't have the book in front of me right now, but IIRC it costs 25 points, not 15]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/273872/1254496.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/273872/1254496.page GMT 2000 point Competitive Dark Elves List - Be Brutal! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/273872/1254717.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/273872/1254717.page GMT Re:2000 point Competitive Dark Elves List - Be Brutal! GW can be when it comes to enforcing their IP rights. (yet you can get almost all of the rules and points from AB files which anyone can get... but that is a whole other can of worms) ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/273872/1255243.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/273872/1255243.page GMT 2000 point Competitive Dark Elves List - Be Brutal!
Anyway, there's an easy fix as you pointed out. Good catch on the points values, by the way. I doubt it'd be a problem, since I didn't list what values went with what, but I'll fix it just in case.

Thanks for all your help guys!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/273872/1255686.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/273872/1255686.page GMT