Latest posts for the thread "A Squad of Possessed "

A Squad of Possessed

Blood4Khorne — GMT

I have a Squad Of Possessed of 7. I give them the Mark of Khorne as well as a Champion. In my opinion the daemon table may not always be reliable but can really be useful. The 5+ Invuln save can help against the usual one guy with a power-fist and can tare through typical infantry with s5. I love and Value my Possessed.

A Squad of Possessed

Reaver83 — GMT

good for you, its just a shame that bezerkers are cheaper, with a better weapon skill, more powerfull on the charge (S5 +1I), and can pack a fist of their own - and are scoring.

A Squad of Possessed

Nurglitch — GMT

Possessed aren't Berzerkers. Berzerkers don't have a basic S5, Iv5+, Daemonkin, Icons, and a cheap Champion.

Possessed are, for example, much better than Berzerkers when they receive a charge, particularly one where the enemy is I5+ and has some way of ignoring armour.

Let's suppose two units, one unit of 9 Possessed with a Champion and an Icon of Khorne, at around 300pts, and a unit of 9 Berzerkers with a Powerfist armed Skull Champion. Both units are charged by a Crusader full of Thunderhammer-armed Terminators, so 8 Terminators.

Possessed: 31 attacks, hitting on 4+, wounding on 3+, defeating armour on 1. 16 hits, 11 wounds, 2 unsaved wounds.

Berzerkers: 27 regular attacks, hitting on 3+, wounding on 4+, defeating armour on 1. 14 hits, 7 wounds, 1 unsaved wound.

Terminators on Possessed: 6 Terminators, 18 attacks, 4+ to hit, 2+ to wound, 4- to save. 9 hits, 7 wounds, 5 unsaved wounds.

Terminators on Berzerkers: 7 Terminators, 21 attacks, 4+ to hit, 2+ to wound, ignores saves. 11 hits, 9 wounds, 9 unsaved wounds. Skull Champion attacks at the same time: 3 attacks, 2 hits, 2 wounds, 1 unsaved wound.

The Berzerkers lose 9:2, so likely get wiped out by No Retreat! since only one is left and three armour saving throws will be failed on average.

The Possessed lose 5:2, so will likely lose another Possessed to No Retreat! Leaving four left for another round with 6 Terminators.

Second round:

4 Possessed, including Champion, have 13 attacks. 7 hit, 5 wound, 1 unsaved wound.

5 Terminators, have 10 attacks, 5 hit, 4 wound, 3 unsaved wounds.

Possessed lose 3:1, losing the Champion to No Retreat!

So the Possessed outlast a unit of Berzerkers on the charge. When they're wiped out, their loss will not reduce your ability to hold objectives. In the turn that they outlast the Berzerkers, your own units can mount a counter-assault.

If they'd rolled Rending, then:

Possessed: 31 attacks, hitting on 4+, wounding on 3+, defeating armour on 1, Rending. 16 hits, 11 wounds including 2 rending hits, 1 unsaved rending hit, 2 unsaved wounds.

Terminators on Possessed: 5 Terminators, 15 attacks, 4+ to hit, 2+ to wound, 4- to save. 8 hits, 7 wounds, 5 unsaved wounds.

Possessed lose 5:3.

If they have Power Weapons:

Possessed: 41 attacks, hitting on 4+, wounding on 3+, defeating armour on 2-. 21 hits, 14 wounds, 5 unsaved wounds.

Terminators on Possessed: 3 Terminators, 9 attacks, 4+ to hit, 2+ to wound, 4- to save. 5 hits, 4 wounds, 3 unsaved wounds.

Possessed win 5:3.

Re:A Squad of Possessed

The Great Enemy — GMT

You need more. 7 isn't enough really for an effective unit. Since they do have the potential to be so devastating, they become prime targets as they cross the board to get into hand-to-hand.

I, for example, try not to field a unit of less than 15, closer to a full 20.
In a prime example, my 20-strong squad tore apart three full units of Black Templar in about 2 1/2 turns.

It may seem a bit pricey to field a full unit, but it's better than going with a cheaper one and having only a couple survive long enough.
This is, if course, only my opinion, and is completely subjective.

A Squad of Possessed

Sanctjud — GMT

I think 8-10 with a rhino is ideal (to maximize rolling scouts).
Larger than 10 is just too expensive and unwieldy...esp. for the Chaos army who can't afford to go spendy on foot infantry with respect to taking a serious consideration to competitivity.

Re:A Squad of Possessed

lordrevege — GMT

Damn your possessed.

A Squad of Possessed

Sanctjud — GMT

In a good way or a bad way.
I've had decent experiences with them...

Re:A Squad of Possessed

lordrevege — GMT

Blood2Khorne's possessed are nasty.
They chopped up my plague marines. It was messy.

A Squad of Possessed

Reaver83 — GMT

Sorry still only T4 with a 3+ armour save they'll fall to light weapons just as easily.

Also their lack of frag grenades means if they assault any unit in cover they will be hitting last, i just cannot see a use for this unit when the chaos codex has so many better suited unit for any of it's roles

And again not troops!

A Squad of Possessed

Nurglitch — GMT

Although they may have T4(5), which means that they wouldn't fall so easily to light weapons, if that's an issue for you.

The lack of Frag Grenades is a red herring. If they assault a unit that's already locked, or that's gone to ground, then Frag Grenades are un-necessary. They aren't really there to lead the charge, although they can do it in a pinch, particularly against units that ignore armour. Then again, show me a better unit for taking a charge in the Codex.

Not being Troops is a bonus for what they do: You don't want Troops receiving a charge or leading a forlorn hope. Because they're not Troops they're expendable in objective games, so they aren't wasted holding objectives like Berzerkers would be, and they're great for providing an anchor to Troops like Lesser Daemons and HQs like Greater Daemons.

Re:A Squad of Possessed

Halsfield — GMT

I think they're a bit expensive and a bit underpowered when compared to some of the other infantry choices for csm. The reason I don't use them however is more that I hate the gift roll which can either make them worth the points or make me wish I had brought something else. I would rather see possession gifts based on the mark given to them, or in some other way allow us to choose the bonus without relying on random chance to make them useful to our army list/theme.

So far all I've used my 2 boxes of possessed for (got them very cheap) have been to make my other troops look more daemonic and give my sorc and lord proper wings.

A Squad of Possessed

Nurglitch — GMT

You should always be prepared for the results of the Daemonkin table. All of the results are useful. Scout and Fleet get them into combat earlier. Feel No Pain makes them tougher. Furious Charge, Rending, and Power Weapons makes them powerful on the charge. That's without the synergies of their Icons. But the point is that you know what they might have, and you can prepare accordingly.

Regarding Scout, you can get them a Rhino. Give that Rhino a Combi-Melta and if you get Scout then you can get a 12" Scout move to close with the enemy, so the Rhino can move 6" on the first turn to Melta an enemy transport. Then you can drop all your Terminators, Obliterators, and Lesser Daemons in on them in the 2nd turn, and convert the Possessed Champion to a Greater Daemon.

A Squad of Possessed

Halsfield — GMT

Nurglitch wrote:You should always be prepared for the results of the Daemonkin table. All of the results are useful. Scout and Fleet get them into combat earlier. Feel No Pain makes them tougher. Furious Charge, Rending, and Power Weapons makes them powerful on the charge. That's without the synergies of their Icons. But the point is that you know what they might have, and you can prepare accordingly.

Regarding Scout, you can get them a Rhino. Give that Rhino a Combi-Melta and if you get Scout then you can get a 12" Scout move to close with the enemy, so the Rhino can move 6" on the first turn to Melta an enemy transport. Then you can drop all your Terminators, Obliterators, and Lesser Daemons in on them in the 2nd turn, and convert the Possessed Champion to a Greater Daemon.

Of course all of the results make the model better than if they did not get any at all. That is exactly why those results are called gifts. However, most of those results do not make them worth almost double the cost of a space marine while still lacking a space marines basic equipment and options. For most of the gifts I'm better off taking cult troops/elites that come with that gift/rule guaranteed in addition to a host of other special rules and equipment that makes them even better at fulfilling that role. If I want a sturdy tie-up unit with feel no pain why take possessed instead of plague marines? If I want an excellent assault unit with furious charge, fearless,lots of attacks, and mark of khorne why would I take possessed over berzerkers(and for a lot less points)? They are a risk that is not worth the reward in any way.

If we could choose an icon for the squad and that allowed us to pick from a list of of daemonic gifts based around that god's mark it would not only be better from a fluff perspective it might actually encourage people to use them for more than parts.

A Squad of Possessed

Nurglitch — GMT

Let's consider what Possessed have:

+1 Strength, +1 Attack, Fearless, Iv5+, Daemonkin (Scout, Fleet, Feel No Pain, Furious Charge, Rending, Power Weapons).

Let's account for the points spent in this fashion: 1 point per addition or subtraction from a base-value of 15pts. Add +1 to each addition for its direct synergy with some existing trait or addition, so getting +1WS costs 1pt but getting +1WS and Furious Charge costs 4pts (1 for each, +2 for combo of increased to hit and to wound and initiative).

The Possessed comes out to 25pts, which would seem inaccurate until you realize that Power Weapons not only allows the unit to ignore armour saves, but adds +1 attack, pushing the average of Daemonkin up to 3 and making 26 feasible. So yes, the results of the Daemonkin are precisely what makes them worth 26 pts.

Why take Possessed instead of Plague Marines? Because Plague Marines get mangled by stuff that ignores their armour save, and thus their Feel No Pain, and prevents them from shooting. And they fight better in close combat, with two attacks at I4 with S5, rather than two attacks at I3 with S4. Plague Marines melt in the face of Assault Terminators, or regular Terminators for that matter.

Why take Possessed instead of Berzerkers? I've already covered that: because Berzerkers can take a charge the way Possessed can. Possessed can take a charge from Assault Terminators and keep on ticking.

Why take Possessed instead of Terminators? Because they are Fearless and can engage in Sweeping Advances for greater effect. Terminators are for engaging Fearless units, Possessed are for engaging regular units in the centre of the midfield, and calling down Daemonic reinforcements, whereas Terminators are the reinforcements!

While choosing from a list of Daemonic Gifts would be most customizable than the Daemonkin table, we saw what happens if that happens. Certain rules and combinations of rules are simply better than others. The second 3rd edition Chaos Space Marine Codex showed that players would simply choose the most effective combination and forget the rest.

A Squad of Possessed

Sanctjud — GMT

I want a sturdy tie-up unit with feel no pain why take possessed instead of plague marines?

-Because they have an Inv save to tie up 'different' things.

If I want an excellent assault unit with furious charge, fearless,lots of attacks, and mark of khorne why would I take possessed over berzerkers(and for a lot less points)?

-Because a squad with power weapons are alot of killy, while with rending, they can each glance AV 14.

DEAR GOD...it's like a cycle...
Let me direct everyone's attension to here at the very least:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/275830.page

Else, anyone that uses and defends possessed plays with a pair!

Possessed look like other options, but they are a unique unit that when compared to the other options brings us back to Apples and Oranges...the comparison just doesn't work IMO.

A Squad of Possessed

Halsfield — GMT

Sanctjud wrote:
I want a sturdy tie-up unit with feel no pain why take possessed instead of plague marines?

-Because they have an Inv save to tie up 'different' things.

If I want an excellent assault unit with furious charge, fearless,lots of attacks, and mark of khorne why would I take possessed over berzerkers(and for a lot less points)?

-Because a squad with power weapons are alot of killy, while with rending, they can each glance AV 14.

DEAR GOD...it's like a cycle...
Let me direct everyone's attension to here at the very least:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/275830.page

Else, anyone that uses and defends possessed plays with a pair!

Possessed look like other options, but they are a unique unit that when compared to the other options brings us back to Apples and Oranges...the comparison just doesn't work IMO.

They are a uniquely bad option that has no real benefit over any of our other options without an extremely good roll. Comparing assault troops to assault troops =/= apples to oranges, sorry. You are aware that an apple has different types, flavors, shapes, sizes, and colors right?

If you think an awful invul save makes them better than taking 2 regular space marines or similar numbers of cult troops (that can shoot before assaulting btw, a whole set of attacks the possessed don't get) then I bet your opponents are rather happy about that.

A Squad of Possessed

Nurglitch — GMT

Halsfield:

So, instead of offering analysis and insight, all you can say is "Nuh-uh!"? Tactical genius...

A Squad of Possessed

40kenthusiast — GMT

How can we possibly be back here again? Possessed are as good as any of the other cult units you can pack in a rhino. They trade greater combat durability for lack of scoring.

I'm going to get a head up on the next threads!

Ksons are fully equal to Zerkers or Plague Marines.
Obliterators are better than havocs.
Lash is the best role for an HQ choice.
Rhinos are mandatory.

A Squad of Possessed

Sanctjud — GMT

Whoa Whoa 40Kenthusiast...no need to open a can of beating a dead horse like Blood4Khorne .
____________________

@Halsfield:

You are aware that an apple has different types, flavors, shapes, sizes, and colors right?

So you are agreeing that they are still different though similar

A Squad of Possessed

Halsfield — GMT

Sanctjud wrote:Whoa Whoa 40Kenthusiast...no need to open a can of beating a dead horse like Blood4Khorne .
____________________

@Halsfield:

You are aware that an apple has different types, flavors, shapes, sizes, and colors right?

So you are agreeing that they are still different though similar

Yes of course I'm saying they're different but similar, that was my whole point to you. You were saying they were too unalike to be compared by saying they were like apples and oranges. I am saying that while different they are in the same realm of function and usage(even if not exactly so, as golden delicious and granny smith are both apples but taste different).

Nurglitch wrote:Halsfield:

So, instead of offering analysis and insight, all you can say is "Nuh-uh!"? Tactical genius...

I think my earlier post offered plenty of analysis and insight. My second post was reinforcing that earlier post while pointing out the flaws I saw in the post I quoted. I don't think anything I said in either post was as simple or childish in meaning as "nuh-uh".

-------------------------------------
Reply to Nurglitch's post as I didn't have the time before work earlier today:

Nurglitch wrote:
Why take Possessed instead of Plague Marines? Because Plague Marines get mangled by stuff that ignores their armour save, and thus their Feel No Pain, and prevents them from shooting. And they fight better in close combat, with two attacks at I4 with S5, rather than two attacks at I3 with S4. Plague Marines melt in the face of Assault Terminators, or regular Terminators for that matter.

This argument doesn't work for me. You are saying that plague marines are bad because there are weapons out there that can kill plague marines. Are there no high strength weapons around to kill the possessed like their are ap3 weapons around to kill the plague marines? This game is all about rock paper scissors, and you are essentially saying that rock is better than scissors because no one takes paper.

Plague marines are far better against a wider variety of units than the possessed. They are designed from the ground up to take a charge and survive. There are of course ways to kill them. If there weren't they would be a lot more costly than 23pts/model. They can also shoot the hell out of the unit before being charged as well which could be a deciding factor. It is essentially a whole round of combat that the possessed can't take part in.

Nurglitch wrote:

Why take Possessed instead of Berzerkers? I've already covered that: because Berzerkers can take a charge the way Possessed can. Possessed can take a charge from Assault Terminators and keep on ticking.

??? Who takes berzerkers so they can "take" a charge instead of making one? I think you are misunderstanding what assault troops like berzerkers are meant to do. If I want something that can handle a charge (and has an invul save) there are plenty of other units to do so and usually for a lot cheaper meaning more bodies. If I want something that gets lots of attacks(guaranteed), has solid WS, and can actually shoot before charging, I'll take berzerkers and get a lot more of them than I could with possessed.

Nurglitch wrote:

Why take Possessed instead of Terminators? Because they are Fearless and can engage in Sweeping Advances for greater effect. Terminators are for engaging Fearless units

You would take possessed over terminators because of fearless? I would still argue that berzerkers do this job better. They are fearless, cost 5 points less, have more attacks on the charge, can shoot, always have furious charge, can take wargear upgrades, etc. The major difference between the two is that invul save, and I still must say that it is not going to save your ass in any kind of a pinch.

Someone with a power weapon is going to charge those possessed, they'll get their invul save, and they will still die most of the time (and for more points! yay!).

Nurglitch wrote:Possessed are for engaging regular units in the centre of the midfield, and calling down Daemonic reinforcements...

Why do I need an elite to deal with regular units? My csms already do this just fine. As for calling down daemonic reinforcements I think there are better units for doing this too and for far cheaper (ie chosen, but also regular csm do it just fine).

Nurglitch wrote:
While choosing from a list of Daemonic Gifts would be most customizable than the Daemonkin table, we saw what happens if that happens. Certain rules and combinations of rules are simply better than others. The second 3rd edition Chaos Space Marine Codex showed that players would simply choose the most effective combination and forget the rest.

So we shouldn't have any options because people only take the good options? There are ways of balancing things other than simply taking away options to make less things to balance. Making "better" choices cost more is a great start, but there is also the option of simply not giving "better" options but options that allow people to play different army types.

Re:A Squad of Possessed

DarkHound — GMT

A test! A test!

Who here has played more than a single game with this edition's Possessed? I almost know (this is the internet after all) Nurglitch, Sanctjud, Blood4Khorne and I have. Blood and I both swear by ours (I run 7 and Icon of Nurgle), while Sanctjud and Nurglitch have atleast had good experiences with them in lists largely not designed for them. Somehow I doubt Halsfield has. I wonder why.

There is little arguement that Khorne Berserkers have more reliable offensive power, if they can get the charge. However, where the Possessed are utterly head and shoulders above them is in durability, especially when equiped with a defensive Icon. They can recieve a charge with little impact to their cost-effectiveness, while Berserkers can't. Possessed have cheaper access to a Champion, and paired with their durability, make perfect vessels for a Deepstrike bomb. (Oh I love my Scouts, yes I do.) Yes, you have to understand how each power on the Daemonkin table affects their usefulness, but when you use them enough you pick up on tricks for getting the most out of their powers.

I brought up a point in Sanctjud's thread that is relevant here: when comparing Possessed you need to give them the power that is best suited for the task. 'But you only have a 1/6 chance of getting that power!' That doesn't matter: on the table top, where you commit the Possessed should be entirely dependant on their power. You won't run into situations where I fleet my Possessed into a Dreadnoughts unless I'm on my way out of the game, or I have a plan (tieing it up for my good old Great Unclean One, for instance). In either of the two exceptions it isn't the Possessed's fault.

I could write some more stuff, but I'm just re-hashing what I wrote here:

DarkHound wrote:Against Terminators? Rending or Power Weapons makes short work of them. Sometimes I'd even risk Furious Charge if they have mostly Power Weapons (Chaos or Wolves). Eldar? My Possessed have T5, so no close combat Eldar stand much of a chance. Banshees do so poorly it is laughable, and Scorpions and Harlies are worse. Orks? FnP seals their fate, although Fleet and Furious Charge also work wonders with my T5. Those powers mean you'll be getting the charge, and Orks hate wounding on 6's. Guard? Lawlz. 'Nids? Last edition my Possessed went toe to toe with Gene-stealers with Furious Charge, FnP, Fleet, or Power Weapons. Granted, it wasn't a massacre. I'd usually lose the squad while killing the second brood, but it was rarely a bad trade. With Rending I poured the wounds on Carnifexs.

All of this stuff I can't say of Berskers, which I do break out and play every so often. Berserkers have performed better against Orks when they get the charge, but it is harder to do without Fleet, and they get shredded if they perform sub-par for even a round (lacking T5, FnP and 5++). Berserkers do not fight Gene-stealers. Period. They also don't fight Banshees or Harlies, who will get the charge. Possessed out perform them because they are not glass cannons. Possessed are really durable, while retaining combat power to match Berserkers.

One last thing about grenades: it isn't nearly the issue some people make it out to be. You want to know why Gene-stealers took such a hit when they lost it? Swinging after a Tac squad when you are only T4 5+ is really bad for your health, but swinging after them when you are T5 3+, 5++ isn't. Things that are hanging out in cover rarely outclass Possessed in close combat, and don't have the bite to really take advantage of swinging first.

Re:A Squad of Possessed

mrwittwer — GMT

While Sanctjud and nurglitch have made excellent points concerning possessed i think there is one thing they are forgetting. And that is people who discredit possessed will be swiftly overtaken by them. They are a good shock unit I have used possessed several times and with success. In my opinion the Icon's they can choose from seal the deal for me. The simple fact they are superior to a regular marine for only 26 points with an invulnerable and a daemonkin power says they were made to do work.

I once gave them an icon of tzeentch, with a 4+ invulnerable they were pretty much ready to take on the world. I threw a 10 man squad of them at a 5 man TH/SS termies and they cleaned them up.

I have also tried with icon of nurgle. At S5 and T5 they are a force to be scared of. Also, if you happen to roll furious charge, you essentially have a small daemon prince. S6 T5 I5 with 30 attacks on the charge, is not something i want in my face.

My last experiment with them i tried for an icon of slaneesh. With IoS any roll on the table helps them. My plan was to strike first and use the possessed as troop killers. I rolled rending and they performed greatly.

With any of the icons you choose just make sure you decide a job for your possessed and they will perform. Tzeentch to kill terminators, or power weapon hunts. Nurgle for light to mid range units. And with slaneesh i used them purely to kill MEQ's. For around 300 points i think they are a great unit to choose, i primarily use them in 1750 or larger games, but they are easily useable in 1500 lists.

In short, i support possessed.

A Squad of Possessed

Nurglitch — GMT

Something else I'll add, which is another point where I disagree with Darkhound and Sanctjud ("largely not designed for them"? the cheek...), is that Possessed helped me love the Lash.

Originally I didn't like the Lash of Submission because my gaming group used lots of vehicles near the end of 4th edition when they were considered death-traps: it was too easy to defeat, particularly when Daemon Princes could be shot to hell and had to forgo stuff like Marks of Tzeentch and Nurgle to get it.

But then a thought occurred to me while I was trying to figure out where to put my expensive Sorcerer of Tzeentch, and I realized that the unit of Possessed/Death Company (my army was still dual-purposed back then) would mean that their shooting wouldn't interfere with his Bolt of Change.

Eventually I put two and two together and took a Sorcerer of Slaanesh with Warptime and Lash of Submission, and stuck him in a unit of Possessed. He could fire out of the top hatch of their Rhino, and not only position dismounted enemy for attacks and blasts/templates, but safely do so when his unit was dismounted (it's only a Rhino), and made the unit even more murderous: for their part they helped protect the Sorcerer against Power Fists by piling attacks on units, and he contributed Frag Grenaded, 4-5 I6 Warptimed Power Weapon attacks, and became Fearless so long as at least one of them survived. Lash causes pinning, which negates difficult terrain penalties to Initiative.

As I explored the possibilities, I noticed synergies with other characters: Kharn, for example, can't murder Possessed as easily as he can Berzerkers. You suffer ~1/3 fewer friendly chops, while again attacking with Frag Grenades when attacking an enemy in cover, and more importantly some considerable anti-vehicle. Similarly they help protect Typhus from hidden Power Fists and fluffed Daemon Weapon rolls while keeping him in the thick of it where Nurgle's Rot hurts the most, and giving the whole unit Defensive Grenades (until Typhus buys it).

The drawback is that Scout and Fleet no long work if they escort a character, but if that's the plan, then you don't have to worry about them having a Rhino and can stick them in a Land Raider for a bludgeon unit. You can stick 8-9 of them in a Land Raider...

Re:A Squad of Possessed

Halsfield — GMT

DarkHound wrote:

Blood and I both swear by ours (I run 7 and Icon of Nurgle), while Sanctjud and Nurglitch have atleast had good experiences with them in lists largely not designed for them. Somehow I doubt Halsfield has. I wonder why.

Wow, right out the gate with the inexperience quip? This is that the best argument you could come up with? This guy doesn't play the way I do so he must be inexperienced?

I've been playing this game as long if not longer than most people on these boards and bought 2 boxes of possessed when they came out. Used them extensively until I figured out that I prefer cult troops or the other elite options to possessed. If they were cheaper and had static bonuses I would take them because they are a great looking unit.

DarkHound wrote:
There is little arguement that Khorne Berserkers have more reliable offensive power, if they can get the charge. However, where the Possessed are utterly head and shoulders above them is in durability, especially when equiped with a defensive Icon. They can recieve a charge with little impact to their cost-effectiveness, while Berserkers can't. Possessed have cheaper access to a Champion, and paired with their durability, make perfect vessels for a Deepstrike bomb. (Oh I love my Scouts, yes I do.)

Khorne berzerkers have just as much, if not more offensive capability( unless you roll power weapons) for 5 less pts/model and if they get the charge they are head and shoulders above possessed. A defensive icon only makes possessed even more expensive, and makes me even less likely to take them as I could do better with more of other units with very similar stat lines. I also think chosen are the perfect vessels for a deep strike bomb considering they will always be able to infiltrate. Loading up an army with deep striking units and relying on possessed seems like a great way to set yourself up for disappointment when you don't roll scout.

DarkHound wrote:Against Terminators? Rending or Power Weapons makes short work of them. Sometimes I'd even risk Furious Charge if they have mostly Power Weapons (Chaos or Wolves). Eldar? My Possessed have T5, so no close combat Eldar stand much of a chance. Banshees do so poorly it is laughable, and Scorpions and Harlies are worse. Orks? FnP seals their fate, although Fleet and Furious Charge also work wonders with my T5. Those powers mean you'll be getting the charge, and Orks hate wounding on 6's. Guard? Lawlz. 'Nids? Last edition my Possessed went toe to toe with Gene-stealers with Furious Charge, FnP, Fleet, or Power Weapons. Granted, it wasn't a massacre. I'd usually lose the squad while killing the second brood, but it was rarely a bad trade. With Rending I poured the wounds on Carnifexs.

Being able to use the randomly rolled stats effectively is not a reason for taking possessed, it is simply making good with a subpar unit. Saying "I killed of with " is not an argument, sorry. If your argument is that possessed are versatile because of their daemonkin role I would argue that I would rather take cheaper units that fit the role I need every single time and not need to shift my tactics around a random special rule.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

mrwittwer wrote:The simple fact they are superior to a regular marine for only 26 points with an invulnerable and a daemonkin power says they were made to do work.

Yes, being superior to a regular csm for almost double the points is worth it and shows they were made to do work. I wouldn't rather have 2 "inferior" regular csms (one of the best regular troop choices in the game) instead of one expensive possessed unit that may or may not have value in my army and against my current opponent.

It seems like people arguing for possessed are stuck on saying how good they are, but that isn't at all the problem. No one is saying that possessed wouldn't kill things and do it fairly well. What I am saying however is that there are units out there that would do it better or equally as well for less points allowing me more troops to do more killing better or equally as well. Give something S5 and T5 and 2 attacks and you have a solid assault unit, but their cost is completely prohibitive when you do that.

A Squad of Possessed

DarkHound — GMT

I was refering to the Crap Legion with that "largely not designed" comment.

Its all the in the durability, Halsfield. Berserkers will crumble when being charged by Orks, Possessed with Icon of Nurgle will not. If the Berserkers screw up their rolls for even a turn, they'll take too many casualties to keep up. They are not head and shoulders above Possessed offensively like Possessed are defensively. With Possessed rolling Furious Charge, Berserkers aren't terribly better (a little more than a kill more, including the Powerfist). With Rending or Power Weapons, Possessed are hands down better than Berserkers. Fleet, FnP and Scout all give the Possessed a different function than Berserkers, and the comparisons become more apples to oranges.

In that paragraph I was pointing out which abilities I've seen be most effective. Does that mean I don't know how to handle a Rending roll against Orks? No, but it is less favourable than FnP or Fleet. A difference between Possessed and conventional units is that once you figure out how to use them effectively, you're done. Possessed change powers, drastically changing their role from game to game. You have to get a feel for how a certain power will help you in whatever match up you're in. You've got to have a plan for where you'll send them for any power they roll. This makes it hard for your opponent to plan their deployment around them, while that is exactly what you are doing. Your opponent knows exactly what the Berserkers are going to do, but can't know what the Possessed will do. Even my gaming group, who are exposed to Possessed, can't plan for them perfectly, especially when I can do stuff like go tank hunting with Furious Charge and make it work, or when that Scout move could be a red herring and it all depends on whether or not you over-commit to it. If you do, I don't use them as my Deepstrike point. If you don't, they are still a real threat and I do Deepstrike there.

Berserkers don't get that kind of utility, I'm sorry.

A Squad of Possessed

Halsfield — GMT

DarkHound wrote:

Its all the in the durability, Halsfield. Berserkers will crumble when being charged by Orks, Possessed with Icon of Nurgle will not. If the Berserkers screw up their rolls for even a turn, they'll take too many casualties to keep up. They are not head and shoulders above Possessed offensively like Possessed are defensively. With Possessed rolling Furious Charge, Berserkers aren't terribly better (a little more than a kill more, including the Powerfist). With Rending or Power Weapons, Possessed are hands down better than Berserkers. Fleet, FnP and Scout all give the Possessed a different function than Berserkers, and the comparisons become more apples to oranges.

You are misunderstanding a little I think. I am not saying berzerkers > possessed in every role imaginable. I am saying when I need an assault troop I take berzerkers. When I need a unit that can shoot the crap out of an enemy unit, then take a charge, then win by attrition I take plague marines over possessed. If I need a unit to get in close to the enemy quickly to allow me to deep strike units in I have chosen. I have yet to come across a role I need possessed for that another unit does not fill better (and usually for less or a lot less points).

I've also said repeatedly that possessed with power weapons are worth their points, but that is a 1/6 chance that cannot be relied upon.

DarkHound wrote:
You've got to have a plan for where you'll send them for any power they roll. This makes it hard for your opponent to plan their deployment around them, while that is exactly what you are doing. Your opponent knows exactly what the Berserkers are going to do, but can't know what the Possessed will do. Even my gaming group, who are exposed to Possessed, can't plan for them perfectly, especially when I can do stuff like go tank hunting with Furious Charge and make it work, or when that Scout move could be a red herring and it all depends on whether or not you over-commit to it. If you do, I don't use them as my Deepstrike point. If you don't, they are still a real threat and I do Deepstrike there.

Berserkers don't get that kind of utility, I'm sorry.

If that's how you play that is fine, but for me I play my army and build my army so that regardless of what the other player knows my units can do I can still win. Even if the other player knows my berzerkers are going to head for the first juicy target and charge at it that doesn't stop them from doing it if I'm playing smartly and have supported the berzerkers properly. Relying on the randomness of a unit to confuse the opponent just isnt going to work against an experienced player. I also don't see how possessed are really going to play wildly different from one special rule to the next. They are always going to be close combat infantry units, it is just what types of close combat benefits they will get (minus scout, which still makes them play the same).

A Squad of Possessed

Nurglitch — GMT

Okay, let's consider two units of equivalent points value, Berzerkers and Possessed, going head to head in the Ork-Murder event at the Olympics. Both face a mob of 30 Orks, 29 Boyz and a Nob with a Powerklaw. The Boyz have Sluggas and Choppas, because we want to lean on the scales in favour of carnage.

Let's say 10 Possessed with an Icon of Khorne vs 9 Berzerkers and a Skull Champion with a Powerfist

Scenario: Charge the Orks.

9 Berzerkers have four attacks on the charge each, hitting on 3+ on the Orks (WS5), wounding on 3+, and failing armour on 5-. The Orks will have three attacks each, with 4+ to hit, 5+ to wound, and failing armour saves on 2-. The Skull Champion and the Nob will strike simultaneously with the Skull Champion hitting on 3+, wounding on 2+, and disallowing saves with four attacks, while the Nob hits on 4+, etc, with three.

Berzerkers: 36 attacks, 24 hits, 18 wounds, 15 failed saves.
Orks: 42 attacks, 21 hits, 7 wounds, 2 failed saves.
Skull Champion: (4)(4/6)(5/6) = 80/36 or 2 & 2/9
Nob: (3)(3/6)(5/6) = 45/36 = 15/12 or 1 & 1/4

So call it 17:3 in favour of the Berzerkers. That means around 14 armour saves for the Orks, and another 12 casualties or so.

Ten Possessed with four attacks on the charge each with 4+ to hit, 3+ to wound, and 5- to save.

Possessed: 40 attacks, 20 hits, 14 wounds, 12 failed saves
Orks: 51 attacks, 26 hits, 8 wounds, 2 failed saves.
Nob: (3)(3/6)(5/6)(4/6) = 180/216 = ~5/6

The Possessed win by 12:2, so 9 more Orks die to failed saves.

The Berzerkers successfully murder 29 Ork boyz at the cost of three of their own. The Possessed merely murder 21 Ork Boyz at the cost of two of their own. In the ensuing Ork close combat phase:

6 Berzerkers have three attacks each, so:

Berzerkers: 18 attacks, 12 hits, 6 wounds, 5 failed saves.
Dead Ork Nob.

8 Possessed have three attacks each, so:

Possessed: 24 attacks, 12 hits, 8 wounds, 7 failed saves
Orks: 3 attacks, 2 hits, 1 wounds, 0 failed saves
Ork Nob: Ork Nob: (4)(3/6)(5/6(4/6) = 1 failed save

Possessed win: 7:1, provoking 6 more failed saves, killing the last boyz and the Nob.

So at the end of two rounds of combat the Possessed and Berzerkers have both demolished a mob of Ork boyz in a frontal assault, the way Khorne intended. There's six Berzerkers left and a Skull Champion, while there's 7 Possessed left.

Of course, had the Possessed had Furious Charge:

Possessed: 40 attacks, 20 hits, 17 wounds, 14 failed saves
Orks: 45 attacks, 23 hits, 8 wounds, 3 failed saves
Ork Nob: Ork Nob: (4)(3/6)(5/6(4/6) = 1 failed save

So the Possessed would win the first round of combat 14:4, resulting in 8-9 more dead Orks, for about 22. They clean these up in the next round.

Had the Possessed had rending:

Possessed: 40 attacks, 20 hits, 14 wounds (3 ignoring armour saves), 12 failed saves. Well, not unexpected: Orks have crappy saves.

Had the Possessed had Power Weapons:

Possessed: 50 attacks, 25 hits, 17 wounds, 17 failed saves.
Orks: 36 attacks, 18 hits, 6 wounds, 2 unsaved wounds.
Ork Nob: Ork Nob: (4)(3/6)(5/6(4/6) = 1 failed save

Possessed win 17:3, which means that the Orks either get luck or get wiped out. In a single round.

Had the Possessed had Feel No Pain:

Possessed: 40 attacks, 20 hits, 14 wounds, 12 failed saves
Orks: 51 attacks, 26 hits, 8 wounds, 2 failed saves, 1 failed Feel No Pain.
Nob: (3)(3/6)(5/6)(4/6) or 1 failed save

12:2, 9 more wounds on the Orks.

But let's suppose it worked out the other way around, where the Boyz mob charged first.

Berzerkers: 27 attacks, 18 hit, 9 wound, 8 failed saves.
Ork Boyz: 84 attacks, 42 hit, 21 wound, 7 failed saves.
Skull Champion: 3 attacks, 2 hit, 2 wound, 2 failed saves
Ork Nob: (4)(3/6)(5/6) = 2 failed saves

The Berzerkers win 10:9, so another Ork boy buys it and the Skull Champion and his buddy are left facing 20 Orks.

Possessed: 27 attacks, 14 hit, 10 wounds, 9 failed saves
Ork Boyz: 80 attacks, 40 hit, 20 wound, 7 failed saves
Ork Nob: (4)(3/6)(5/6(4/6) = 1 failed save

The Possessed win 9:8, so another Ork boy buyz it and two Possessed are left.

And so on. Work out the Power Weapons, Rending, and Feel No Pain variations for your own due diligence.

A Squad of Possessed

Sanctjud — GMT

Heh..I like the jab there Nurglitch.
Just a note, I don't like Lash based on horrible tabling I did a while back in 4th.
It's obviously different in 5th, but it's still horrid when the rest of the list is there to boot people out of their cans .

And yes, Crap Legion...it gives me the itch to play them again (after my current project that is ).
--------------------------------------

Bottome Line: possessed are not ideal in terms of living to the fluff or 3.5 edition, but they have their charm/niche/uses.

We all agree they are a bit overpriced, but it doesn't stop them from functioning the way they function.

Re:A Squad of Possessed

DarkHound — GMT

I think the issue, Halsfield, is that you're mindset is 'assault' unit. I've used my Possessed as everything from counter-assault to tank hunters. The Possessed are a very rugged frame to mount each of the special rules, all it takes is a little creativity to push the powers. Did you know you can use Fleet to improve their role as a shock trooper just as easily as you can use it to make them a better assault unit? How about that you can use Scout for counter-assault, especially against hordes?

Berserkers, on the other hand, will always be objective takers. They're damned good at it, but that's all they can be really good at. Their anti-tank is a defensive mechanism; they aren't durable enough to be shock-troopers; their effectiveness is too tied to their Champion for them to be effective daemon vessels. They can do counter-assault, but then you're wasting their scoring status.

I don't need them to confuse my opponent: infact it works even better when they know exactly what I could be doing. If they understand that even their vehicles are a target when my Possessed roll Furious Charge it makes it harder for them to count on what I'm actually going after with the Possessed. Using Scout as a red herring, like I mentioned earlier, only works if the opponent thinks they know whats coming. It isn't about the randomness of the unit; it is about the percieved randomness.

By the way, I honestly think Power Weapons is the worst power you can roll. I've found the least ammount of tricks for it, which means its only really good against what your opponent expects.

A Squad of Possessed

Tony the guardsman — GMT

I will mob the possessed ones with 30 to 50 guards,las the hell outta ya

A Squad of Possessed

DarkHound — GMT

Actually, with Icon of Nurgle and without FnP, 100 Lasgun shots will only kill 3 Possessed. Interestingly enough, without Icon of Nurgle you lose twice that. Icon of Nurgle is worth its weight in gold.

A Squad of Possessed

Sanctjud — GMT

@DarkHound:
Power weapons are pretty one dimensional... but it does have the possibility of 'horde' control...if you play it as extra gear and so they get +1 A...in addition to the PW ability.

So...still doing well in a counter attack role .

A Squad of Possessed

DarkHound — GMT

I don't, but I might have to start. At this point I like Rending over Power Weapons (it gives them MC and Tank Hunting, on top of good MEQ and TEQ hunting), so maybe it was meant to get them an extra attack.

A Squad of Possessed

Sanctjud — GMT

I think it is both RAI and RAW that they get 2 close combat weapons.

"Extra Equipment" are the two key words in the possessed entry where it says what they get out of the Daemonkin table, not just 'special rules'.

The power weapon option is the only one that can mean 'extra equipment' as opposed to a 'special rule'. But there are those that disagree...out there in the internets.../sigh.

A Squad of Possessed

Nurglitch — GMT

Ah, the internets, full of individuals that can somehow use computers, yet find the GW rulebooks to be vague and incomprehensible documents...

Re:A Squad of Possessed

Shelegelah — GMT

Looks like I got into the party a little late, and I'm afraid that you fellows have stolen most of the good points. All I can say at this point is that I've had both great experiences with my possessed and horrible experiences with my possessed. My favorite use for them is, as others have said, an independent character escort. Just slap a power-armoured character that you want to bury in combat (which, in the Chaos Codex, is most of them) in a Rhino along with eight possessed and a champion, and you've got yourself a dead-killy squad that hits hard and has the capability to stick around. The special rules table can be iffy sometimes, but I figure that there's a fifty-fifty chance of getting something I really, really want (Power Weapons, Feel No Pain, Rending), and that's honestly enough for me. I've grown to love the random aspects of Chaos... When Chaos fails, it has the tendency to fail hard.

But when it succeeds, at least in my experience, it blows the opposition away.

A Squad of Possessed

DarkHound — GMT

I was erring on the side of caution, but I did agree with that ruling. Its a similiar issue I have with the Dread; its usefulness sways largely on how the locals play that rule.

The problem I have with the bodyguard approach is that it reduces the Daemonkin rule to only being effective 66% of the time. I used to sometimes deploy my Sorcerer with them, but I've found they just work better when you let them do their own thing.

However, that means the rest of the army has to be more or less effective by itself. You can count on them to be close combat support, but the specifics of their useage is, of course, variable.

A Squad of Possessed

ironangel256 — GMT

Nurglitch wrote:Okay, let's consider two units of equivalent points value, Berzerkers and Possessed, going head to head in the Ork-Murder event at the Olympics. Both face a mob of 30 Orks, 29 Boyz and a Nob with a Powerklaw. The Boyz have Sluggas and Choppas, because we want to lean on the scales in favour of carnage.

Let's say 10 Possessed with an Icon of Khorne vs 9 Berzerkers and a Skull Champion with a Powerfist

Scenario: Charge the Orks.

9 Berzerkers have four attacks on the charge each, hitting on 3+ on the Orks (WS5), wounding on 3+, and failing armour on 5-. The Orks will have three attacks each, with 4+ to hit, 5+ to wound, and failing armour saves on 2-. The Skull Champion and the Nob will strike simultaneously with the Skull Champion hitting on 3+, wounding on 2+, and disallowing saves with four attacks, while the Nob hits on 4+, etc, with three.

Berzerkers: 36 attacks, 24 hits, 18 wounds, 15 failed saves.
Orks: 42 attacks, 21 hits, 7 wounds, 2 failed saves.
Skull Champion: (4)(4/6)(5/6) = 80/36 or 2 & 2/9
Nob: (3)(3/6)(5/6) = 45/36 = 15/12 or 1 & 1/4

So call it 17:3 in favour of the Berzerkers. That means around 14 armour saves for the Orks, and another 12 casualties or so.

Ten Possessed with four attacks on the charge each with 4+ to hit, 3+ to wound, and 5- to save.

Possessed: 40 attacks, 20 hits, 14 wounds, 12 failed saves
Orks: 51 attacks, 26 hits, 8 wounds, 2 failed saves.
Nob: (3)(3/6)(5/6)(4/6) = 180/216 = ~5/6

The Possessed win by 12:2, so 9 more Orks die to failed saves.

The Berzerkers successfully murder 29 Ork boyz at the cost of three of their own. The Possessed merely murder 21 Ork Boyz at the cost of two of their own. In the ensuing Ork close combat phase:

6 Berzerkers have three attacks each, so:

Berzerkers: 18 attacks, 12 hits, 6 wounds, 5 failed saves.
Dead Ork Nob.

8 Possessed have three attacks each, so:

Possessed: 24 attacks, 12 hits, 8 wounds, 7 failed saves
Orks: 3 attacks, 2 hits, 1 wounds, 0 failed saves
Ork Nob: Ork Nob: (4)(3/6)(5/6(4/6) = 1 failed save

Possessed win: 7:1, provoking 6 more failed saves, killing the last boyz and the Nob.

So at the end of two rounds of combat the Possessed and Berzerkers have both demolished a mob of Ork boyz in a frontal assault, the way Khorne intended. There's six Berzerkers left and a Skull Champion, while there's 7 Possessed left.

Of course, had the Possessed had Furious Charge:

Possessed: 40 attacks, 20 hits, 17 wounds, 14 failed saves
Orks: 45 attacks, 23 hits, 8 wounds, 3 failed saves
Ork Nob: Ork Nob: (4)(3/6)(5/6(4/6) = 1 failed save

So the Possessed would win the first round of combat 14:4, resulting in 8-9 more dead Orks, for about 22. They clean these up in the next round.

Had the Possessed had rending:

Possessed: 40 attacks, 20 hits, 14 wounds (3 ignoring armour saves), 12 failed saves. Well, not unexpected: Orks have crappy saves.

Had the Possessed had Power Weapons:

Possessed: 50 attacks, 25 hits, 17 wounds, 17 failed saves.
Orks: 36 attacks, 18 hits, 6 wounds, 2 unsaved wounds.
Ork Nob: Ork Nob: (4)(3/6)(5/6(4/6) = 1 failed save

Possessed win 17:3, which means that the Orks either get luck or get wiped out. In a single round.

Had the Possessed had Feel No Pain:

Possessed: 40 attacks, 20 hits, 14 wounds, 12 failed saves
Orks: 51 attacks, 26 hits, 8 wounds, 2 failed saves, 1 failed Feel No Pain.
Nob: (3)(3/6)(5/6)(4/6) or 1 failed save

12:2, 9 more wounds on the Orks.

But let's suppose it worked out the other way around, where the Boyz mob charged first.

Berzerkers: 27 attacks, 18 hit, 9 wound, 8 failed saves.
Ork Boyz: 84 attacks, 42 hit, 21 wound, 7 failed saves.
Skull Champion: 3 attacks, 2 hit, 2 wound, 2 failed saves
Ork Nob: (4)(3/6)(5/6) = 2 failed saves

The Berzerkers win 10:9, so another Ork boy buys it and the Skull Champion and his buddy are left facing 20 Orks.

Possessed: 27 attacks, 14 hit, 10 wounds, 9 failed saves
Ork Boyz: 80 attacks, 40 hit, 20 wound, 7 failed saves
Ork Nob: (4)(3/6)(5/6(4/6) = 1 failed save

The Possessed win 9:8, so another Ork boy buyz it and two Possessed are left.

And so on. Work out the Power Weapons, Rending, and Feel No Pain variations for your own due diligence.

Hey Guys... I'm one of the more prominent Chaos Gurus over on Librarium-Online. I saw this discussion and had to jump in. The above argument seems a good one but fails to take into account the pistol shots that would be fired by the berzerkers. Barring a Waagh they would get these shots the turn they charge or the turn before being charged. There is also the matter of versatility involved with having the fist(and krak grenades) in the zerker squad. The only real way the posessed can take down a walker is if they roll rending and any good general will try to tarpit them with something they can't touch.

One other point I'll make about posessed is that you don't know what power they have until AFTER they have been deployed. This makes them extremely difficult and borderline frustrating to play with every single time.

That being said, I am not against people using them if they like them. I just agree that I would rather know exactly what everything in my army is capable of before I put it down on the board.

EDIT: I thought it also worth mentioning that the unit of posessed and the unit of zerkers used in the comparison above are not even close to points equivalent. Unless I'm way off the posessed unit mentioned there should run aprox. 280 pts and the unit of zerkers (if we are saying 10, champ included) should run aprox. 250 pts.

A Squad of Possessed

Nurglitch — GMT

Welcome to Dakka, where you don't need to quote long posts in their entirety in your own.

Regarding pistols: Firing pistols before charging is a very bad idea because wound allocation can mean that the models within 6" are removed, and besides the Berzerkers cannot fire their pistols if they are being charged.

Moreover you know exactly what the Possessed will have prior to their deployment: 1/6 results on the Daemonkin table and you can plan accordingly. Saying that you don't know what the result is going to be is like saying that Lootas suck because you don't know how many shots they're going to take (and they have BS2!): it really misses the point about the predictability of Possessed.

As for taking down a Walker, why would you be charging a Walker with infantry?

I take it you're one of those self-proclaimed gurus?

A Squad of Possessed

Sanctjud — GMT

Pistols are nice, but there's two issues that don't always make it a win/win:
1. killing too much in which front models are removed robbing a charge.
2. killing too much to force morale and the opponent falls back out of charge range.

Possessed don't have shooting which does suck in terms of having options, but at least when you roll fleet it's not wasted. In addition it doesn't matter to much they don't have shooting as they should be in a rhino and in most cases counter charging.

See...I've been really loud about the role: Counter Charge for possessed... it minimizes their weaknesses like nothing else.

I'd like to say I'm a prominent chaos poster over in 40K Online And the point of noting this? I have no idea...

As for the tar pitting them with walkers, that's what the rest of the list is supposted to do, support each other and take out stuff they are not supposed to handle.

If walkers were that scary to possessed toss Kharn into the squad as some have suggested them to be IC bodyguard duty.
______________________--

One other point I'll make about posessed is that you don't know what power they have until AFTER they have been deployed. This makes them extremely difficult and borderline frustrating to play with every single time.

Hmm, I don't share that concern...did you have a chance to read the linky I linked in the beginning, it's something I've gone over.

With counter attack roles, all the daemonkin powers are welcomed. It's not difficult and there is no frustration.

As to the comparison I think it's more like 290 for possessed and 250 for zerkers. So there is a difference of roughly 2 Zerkers, which does change the numbers a bit..., but I don't think it's that productive.

Raw damage is not the entire point of possessed...that is the zerkers' job.

Re:A Squad of Possessed

ironangel256 — GMT

Regarding pistols: Firing pistols before charging is a very bad idea because wound allocation can mean that the models within 6" are removed, and besides the Berzerkers cannot fire their pistols if they are being charged.

Possible but unlikely against 30 orks, you're looking at max 2-3 wounds from the pistols... And as I said in my post, the pistols would be fired the turn before being charged (when between 7-12 from the enemy squad). They obviously would not be fired as you are being charged.

Moreover you know exactly what the Possessed will have prior to their deployment: 1/6 results on the Daemonkin table and you can plan accordingly. Saying that you don't know what the result is going to be is like saying that Lootas suck because you don't know how many shots they're going to take (and they have BS2!): it really misses the point about the predictability of Possessed.

Not quite... With Lootas you know they can't scratch a land raider but can take out rhinos and other lighter vehicles like nobodies business. With posessed you will not know if they will be capable of touching vehicles (rending), carving up termis (power weapons), serving as a decent summoning platform (scouts), etc. until after they are on the board. Sure some of it stays the same but the power rolled on the daemon kin table tends to define their specific roll in the battle.

As for taking down a Walker, why would you be charging a Walker with infantry?

You wouldn't but any competent opponent would if at all possible. Given the amount of Walkers out there and the various ways they have of getting close to your force (podding, DSing BA dreads, fleeting defilers, even just running(Kans / Deff Dreads)) I feel it is a VERY valid point.

You also ignored the point difference in the two units. Taking into account the pistol shots and the whole extra zerkers you can get to bring the points closer it becomes obvious that the zerkers win out.

I take it you're one of those self-proclaimed gurus?

Well, I have been a member of the forum for three years, have nearly 2000 posts, a very high reputation score, hosted the Chaos Army List Builder thread and various vote wars, tested and wrote up a massive review of the new codex after it was released, at one point was in consideration for a "Mod"-ship but turned it down, and have been playing CSM since second edition. If you want to call me a "self-proclaimed guru" that's your call but if you're curious you can check LO for my profile... I go by the same user name over there.

EDIT: I just read this last paragraph and threw up in my mout a little. I'm not trying to say I know more / am more "leet" / whatever than anybody. I was originally just trying to say that I'm not some n3wb who just bought the battle force, I actually know some things.

EDIT 2: Had to add a bit to respond to Sanctjud...

Possessed don't have shooting which does suck in terms of having options, but at least when you roll fleet it's not wasted. In addition it doesn't matter to much they don't have shooting as they should be in a rhino and in most cases counter charging.

See...I've been really loud about the role: Counter Charge for possessed... it minimizes their weaknesses like nothing else.

Hmm, I don't share that concern...did you have a chance to read the linky I linked in the beginning, it's something I've gone over.

With counter attack roles, all the daemonkin powers are welcomed. It's not difficult and there is no frustration.

The "counter charge" thing is interesting, I will give it a try... but in that same vein I would think zerkers will again work better at counter charge.

I'd like to say I'm a prominent chaos poster over in 40K Online And the point of noting this? I have no idea...

As I said above I was just trying to qualify that I am not just some random 11 year old who just Ebayed my army.

If walkers were that scary to possessed toss Kharn into the squad as some have suggested them to be IC bodyguard duty.

This just further increases the point investment in the squad, my point was that the Zerkers do not need support from another squad to deal with armor. There will be times when additional support is not available and I hate handcuffing one unit to another to try and deal with a units weakness.

A Squad of Possessed

Sanctjud — GMT

Podding Dreads (currently and non-forge world) can't charge out of them. So no problem there.

Fleeting Defiler: they should be dead early on...and 18" range shouldn't be too hard to guestimate.

Running walkers vs. rhino squad...seriously? Even then, with mutually supported infantry units, they shouldn't even need to feel threatened by non fleeting running walkers.

"Well, I have been a member of the forum for three years, have nearly 2000 posts, a very high reputation score, hosted ...blah blah blah..."

I've got over 7000 posts over in 40KO.
Am the Daemon Prince leader of the CSM boards.
Have my own tactica and participate a humongo update as well.
I've got 2600+ posts here... blah blah.
I don't think it really matters...what adds weight to your post.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
My "Possessed, Cup Half Full" thread detailed that:
Possessed are best at counter charging.
Zerkers CAN do counter charging, but their role is mainly assaulting fortified positions and taking objectives.

Possessed shine in all other areas...comparitively those same roles are a step down for zerkers abilities.

his just further increases the point investment in the squad, my point was that the Zerkers do not need support from another squad to deal with armor. There will be times when additional support is not available and I hate handcuffing one unit to another to try and deal with a units weakness.

I agree. But it's still a viable option as other have had good experiences with it. I don't like IC's in those squads, but I am loathe to discount it completely as the logic behind putting him there is sound.

A Squad of Possessed

ironangel256 — GMT

Sanctjud wrote:Podding Dreads (currently and non-forge world) can't charge out of them. So no problem there.

Currently a podding dread can drop in next to your rhino and pop it with a MM. Obviously it cant charge but suddenly your posessed are sitting there next a dread with no way to kill it and no transport.

This all changes as well with BA as they will be able to assualt after deep striking.

Sanctjud wrote:Fleeting Defiler: they should be dead early on...and 18" range shouldn't be too hard to guestimate.

Key word there... "should". Never can tell due to changing battle situations, fickle dice gods, etc.

Sanctjud wrote:Running walkers vs. rhino squad...seriously? Even then, with mutually supported infantry units, they shouldn't even need to feel threatened by non fleeting running walkers.

Rhinos are high priority targets on almost anyones list of things to kill, so assuming that you will always have it / never be in charge range of a walker seems like a mistake to me.

Sanctjud wrote:"Well, I have been a member of the forum for three years, have nearly 2000 posts, a very high reputation score, hosted ...blah blah blah..."

I've got over 7000 posts over in 40KO.
Am the Daemon Prince leader of the CSM boards.
Have my own tactica and participate a humongo update as well.
I've got 2600+ posts here... blah blah.
I don't think it really matters...what adds weight to your post.

As I said above.... I wasn't trying to rile anyone up. My original statement about being a prominent member of LO was (an obviously) bad attempt to both introduce myself (as our forums were bugging out on me) and try to let people know I am not a new player.

Sanctjud wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:
My "Possessed, Cup Half Full" thread detailed that:
Possessed are best at counter charging.
Zerkers CAN do counter charging, but their role is mainly assaulting fortified positions and taking objectives.

Possessed shine in all other areas...comparitively those same roles are a step down for zerkers abilities.

The only area that I can see posessed outshine zerkers every time on a single model basis is survivability but this changes when we take into account points costs of units. Lets put it this way... If I have a unit of normal CSM in combat with assualt termis I would much rather have zerkers charging in to save my bacon than a similarly costed unit of posessed.

Sanctjud wrote:I agree. But it's still a viable option as other have had good experiences with it. I don't like IC's in those squads, but I am loathe to discount it completely as the logic behind putting him there is sound.

The logic does make sense, I agree but as I said I hate handcuffing one unit to another. With zerkers I never have to wonder how they are going to deal with armor, the fist and grenades take care of that for me.

A Squad of Possessed

Sanctjud — GMT

This will prob. not help progress possessed, but you are correct that there was prob. more than one way your introduction could be described as.

I don't think it's needed though, if you offer insight and objective well thoughtout posts (and you do) you shouldn't need to describe your history.
______________________
Back on topic though:

18" guestimate, true should... but that relies on the opponent rolling a 6 and one screwing up a pretty basic range that most are able to see... in addition the defiler is pretty big and stuck at AV12.
IMO and in my experience against and using, they are dead early...so early that the 18" thingy doesn't come up often.

Possessed sitting next to the dread that podded in and blew up their ride:
Yes, sad panda face the rhino is dead, but like I said, the melta gun CSM squad should be next to the possessed, well in 2D6 range...and pretty much the rest of the CSM army should they need to deal with it.

Rhinos are high priority targets on almost anyones list of things to kill, so assuming that you will always have it / never be in charge range of a walker seems like a mistake to me.

The idea is that the possessed in a rhino is not as a high priority as the other three with cults or CSMs.
In addition, it's not that they are never in a situation that they will be charged... what I'm talking about is deploying so you have a say in the whole thing as opposed to the one on one situations that sort of trip up discussions about a spotlight unit.

The only area that I can see posessed outshine zerkers every time on a single model basis is survivability but this changes when we take into account points costs of units.
-Possessed are better in protracted fights in terms of wounding on a squad basis.
-They are more durable to power armor ignoring stuff.
-They have a natural 2 A so won't lose it against wych weapons..for the lolz.
-2/6 they kill power armor better on a squad basis.
-2/6 they are faster than zerkers.
-1/6 they are tougher against all forms of attacks.
-1/6 they will be as fast on the charge and hit a bit harder on a squad basis.

Basically, that's what you expect out of a somewhat hybrid unit.
They obviously won't perform as well as specilized units in their specialized field...

A Squad of Possessed

ironangel256 — GMT

Sanctjud wrote:18" guestimate, true should... but that relies on the opponent rolling a 6 and one screwing up a pretty basic range that most are able to see... in addition the defiler is pretty big and stuck at AV12.
IMO and in my experience against and using, they are dead early...so early that the 18" thingy doesn't come up often.

My "Should" was more in relation to the defiler being killed early. In a toruney environment you are likely to see 2-3 or none at all in addition to other high priority targets such as the rhinos you mention below and lashing DPS, possibly oblits, etc. In this setting one can't be sure the defilers will be gone early.

Sanctjud wrote:Possessed sitting next to the dread that podded in and blew up their ride:
Yes, sad panda face the rhino is dead, but like I said, the melta gun CSM squad should be next to the possessed, well in 2D6 range...and pretty much the rest of the CSM army should they need to deal with it.

There are too many variables here for either of us to be right. Sure, the posessed could be right in the middle of your line at the start of the game with support or they could be caught alone by an objective on turn 4. I'm just one of those people that loves redundancy, knowing that I have a solution to armor in every squad.

Sanctjud wrote:The idea is that the possessed in a rhino is not as a high priority as the other three with cults or CSMs. In addition, it's not that they are never in a situation that they will be charged... what I'm talking about is deploying so you have a say in the whole thing as opposed to the one on one situations that sort of trip up discussions about a spotlight unit.

Tactical deployment can help but this brings us back around to the topic of not knowing their power before deployment. Posessed are not tactically versatile because of both this and the fact that they do require support most of the time.

Sanctjud wrote:-Possessed are better in protracted fights in terms of wounding on a squad basis.

True but zerkers have the edge on number of attacks when comparing equal points squads plus as mentioned zerkers can "wound" armor where posessed only can reliably 1/6th of the time.

Sanctjud wrote:-They are more durable to power armor ignoring stuff.
-They have a natural 2 A so won't lose it against wych weapons..for the lolz.
-2/6 they kill power armor better on a squad basis.
-2/6 they are faster than zerkers.
-1/6 they are tougher against all forms of attacks.
-1/6 they will be as fast on the charge and hit a bit harder on a squad basis.

The invulnerable save and FNP are good and make the posessed tougher to kill but taking the points cost into account brings the effectiveness of this down a little bit imo. I will agree that there is also a tipping point(armor save of opponent) between posessed and zerkers at which one squad is better than another at killing. Zerkers have the edge against hordes and posessed can have the edge against power armour.

My problem with all of the above is again, you NEVER know what you are bringing to the table. 4/6 times zerkers are better at killing anything than posessed are. 5/6 times plague marines are more survivable in general. 5/6 (I don't count fleet) chosen are a better summoning platform.

Sanctjud wrote:Basically, that's what you expect out of a somewhat hybrid unit.
They obviously won't perform as well as specilized units in their specialized field...

I guess it just comes down to play style, my deployment always takes into account what a unit is capable of and with posessed you cannot know that until the game starts. I just refuse to leave anything to chance if I can help it.

A Squad of Possessed

Sanctjud — GMT

@ironangel256:

My "Should" was more in relation to the defiler being killed early. In a toruney environment you are likely to see 2-3 or none at all in addition to other high priority targets such as the rhinos you mention below and lashing DPS, possibly oblits, etc. In this setting one can't be sure the defilers will be gone early.

The defiler has similar lethality as the other options you have listed.
The majority of the world will not share that opinion of possessed, hence lower threat to them and less likely to be targeted.
In addition, compared to the Lash DP and Oblits, it’s much easier to get rid of the defiler… and as I said, defilers never survive when I’m involved…though a small number of games I’ve played/witness compared to the world that is.

There are too many variables here for either of us to be right. Sure, the posessed could be right in the middle of your line at the start of the game with support or they could be caught alone by an objective on turn 4. I'm just one of those people that loves redundancy, knowing that I have a solution to armor in every squad.

Why ‘could’ if one knows they will be for counter attack and will place it near the majority of their forces? It’s the decision of the player to follow it… it’s not like he randomly places units down.
As for caught alone, it depends… if they assaulted a position and knocked off a scoring unit, the trade was successful. They won’t be alone if you plan for them to not be alone…I’m not sure what you are trying to say there… if you deploy 2 units and follow through with the plan that they move within each others’ area or influence…it’s not like one unit has rage and goes the other direction.
As for the last part, it’s a difference in play style then. I don’t mind having specialist squads and focusing on units that work together more than an army of generalists. Don’t get me wrong, I very much like redundancy and having each unit take on all comers. But the point I’m making is that those that poo-poo possessed are not using them… or not using them with an appropriate expectation to get the most out of them.

Tactical deployment can help but this brings us back around to the topic of not knowing their power before deployment. Posessed are not tactically versatile because of both this and the fact that they do require support most of the time.

I’m sorry, could you explain that first part again. I frankly don’t get it. I never have a problem with deployment or not knowing what power they will get.
I see the list 5/6 of the time I know they will be counter attacking, 1/6, they power forward wherever they were placed. It’s that simple and hasn’t failed me yet.

True but zerkers have the edge on number of attacks when comparing equal points squads plus as mentioned zerkers can "wound" armor where posessed only can reliably 1/6th of the time.

Yes, the zerkers don’t just edge out…they are actually better overall in killing, which is not surprising, and brings us back to my last point in my previous post.

My problem with all of the above is again, you NEVER know what you are bringing to the table. 4/6 times zerkers are better at killing anything than posessed are. 5/6 times plague marines are more survivable in general. 5/6 (I don't count fleet) chosen are a better summoning platform.

*Scouts: doesn’t affect their killing, but they are stuck in earlier (turn 2 even), that is a huge leg up over zerkers.
*Fleet: again, faster into combat. These really don’t have number values to rival the Zerkers’ numbers. But if the possessed are in combat turn 2 and the zerkers are still going there… then any numbers the possessed bring is better than 0 .
*FNP: ‘more’ durability, this affects combat resolution just a little, not as much as pure muscle, but it can help combat.
*Furious Charge: comparatively, they get to wound better than zerkers and at the same time, and helps up their combat results, but yea, Zerkers would be better with the extra attack over possessed. Zerkers would have a fist, but for mass str 6, Zerkers are only limited to single krak grenades.
*Rending: Helps, but I don’t think they end up with the same damage output as zerkers, but at least it’s not like losing a specific model takes out the main teeth of the squad (fist).
*Power Weapons:
Again, it’s a point of view. I know what will be on the table and plan for the unit based on the pre-daemonkin table. Whatever they roll is whatever they get…I’m clear on what they do regardless of what they roll.

Yes zerkers are better at killing, they are the specialists.
Yes plague marines are durable, they are the specialists. Possessed combatty a bit better and the inv save.
Chosen: they are better summoning platforms only 2/3 of the time (dawn of war screws both in terms of getting icons onto the board early).
In addition, Chosen should be outflanking in a rhino as infiltrating chosen is IMO not a serious unit.

I guess it just comes down to play style, my deployment always takes into account what a unit is capable of and with posessed you cannot know that until the game starts.

It’s not just play style, it’s specifically the point of view. How often do you use/witness possessed?

I just refuse to leave anything to chance if I can help it.

…this whole game is chance…
…oh and this is Chaos Space Marines… Home of the bloodfeeder and crazy dreads.
My response: PLAY WITH A PAIR! .

Re:A Squad of Possessed

Shelegelah — GMT

…oh and this is Chaos Space Marines… Home of the bloodfeeder and crazy dreads.
My response: PLAY WITH A PAIR! .

Best statement from you EVER. Found myself an addition to my signature.

A Squad of Possessed

Halsfield — GMT

Sanctjud wrote:
ironangel256 wrote:
I just refuse to leave anything to chance if I can help it.

…this whole game is chance…
…oh and this is Chaos Space Marines… Home of the bloodfeeder and crazy dreads.
My response: PLAY WITH A PAIR! .

key phrase: "If I can help it"

Play with a pair? Or play with a pair while using some sense to determine which risks in our codex are not worth the "reward".

From a strategic sense, plasma weapons, daemon weapons, and kharn the betrayer all have a very strong reward to make up for their 1 in 6 risk of doing something you don't want. Our chaos dreadnoughts have double that chance(while some can be reduced by weapon swaps and placement) and just do not have some great reward that makes them worth it in most cases. My problem with possessed has more to do with their point cost than anything else, but they also have a lot of potential risk based around their daemonkin roll(modified by your own army setup, your experience playing them, and your opponent and his army) There is plenty of room for having some fun risk in a csm army while still measuring that risk as worthwhile or not.

From a fluff sense, not very many chaos marine armies/renegades are bloodthirsty to the exclusion of all else. For instance I doubt an alpha legion commander would rush off blindly onto the battlefield to make some chaos god happy or use blood-crazed dreadnoughts when they could demolish their own lines just as easily as the opponents. The only legions/warbands I agree would do something like that would be berzerkers, word bearers, and possibly slaanesh cultists due to their zealot nature. So I think the idea that chaos players need to use these types of risky weapons to be "chaos-y" is wrong.

A Squad of Possessed

mrwittwer — GMT

The chaos gods are fickle. Thats why chaos is random, it is ever changing. Just like the gods themselves. Read the chaos daemons codex. It explains how the gods work.

Re:A Squad of Possessed

Blood4Khorne — GMT

Nurglitch -"Something else I'll add, which is another point where I disagree with Darkhound and Sanctjud ("largely not designed for them"? the cheek...), is that Possessed helped me love the Lash. "

Possessed, being only close combate, have a unit tossed in front of them? With base S5 and a power, most might i add give a CC benefit, and a +5 Invul make damaging assaults.

In certain cases, they can wipe out a Power Klaw nob squad. They can make the saves they need and hopefully, will clean them up. If you avoid the small arms fire and get them in the fray they are vital to any of my battle plans.

Im planning on having 2 squads of them of 7-8 with rhinos, so that you have more you can do with them.

A Squad of Possessed

Nurglitch — GMT

Blood4Khorne:

I think you misunderstood the purpose of putting a Sorcerer in a squad of Possessed. The purpose is three-hold.

Firstly they're Fearless. That means that so long as he joins the unit, the Sorcerer is also Fearless.

Secondly they have no shooting of their own, so I'm not wasting their firepower shooting at the unit I want to move into position for my big guns, and after someone else has softened the unit up, then the Possessed have an ideal target to mop up.

Thirdly, and this is important, it puts a number of Iv5+ bodies and a Rhino between the Sorcerer and anything unpleasant that might happen to him. It makes him considerably more durable than a Daemon Prince, and then gives you much more opportunity to sit in that 24" range where four wounds worth of Bolters might otherwise silence that Lash of Submission.

It's not like they'll lose out on a special weapon if he joins a squad of Possesed in a Rhino.

A Squad of Possessed

Sanctjud — GMT

Well, for all that you lose the usage (as long as he's attached) of Fleet and more importantly Scouts.
So, if the three-fold beneifts outweight the loss of using 1 power and the need to detach the sorc to use a second, then they are a great bodyguard unit.

I personally don't like it, but I recognize that is a viable option for the inv save aspect. I personally like plague marines for the 'bodyguard' job but I'm not one to go ga-ga for ICs these days.

@Halsfield:
Well, the rewards are not hard to see.
Scouts: uber distraction and in your enemy base early.
Fleet: similar to scouts in that you get to have a faster unit to get to combat.

These two is a one up to the zerkers... you can be 10's on all stats, but if you can't get there then they are missing the party.
Certainly the zerkers can make up for lost 'time', but the utiltiy of getting into the opponents' lines faster can't be ignored.

Furious Charge/Rending: generally meh, but meshes with their main role of counter attack and going after enemy units that are not concerned with objective camping.

Power Weapons

Feel No Pain: all purpose tarpit really in addition to their primary role.

Possessed have an opportunity cost that turns people off. This is very true, no disagreement there. Here is another point of view, what if the lack of options is a good thing?
With a generalist squad, they offer you a menu of deployment options and what to engage etc. With that menu you get to pick and choose. There is an opportunity cost here as well, setting them up in one spot to deal with Item one inconveniences the rest of the list as they could have used their other abilities on another target. You might get tempted into different directions all good, and all but one are fulfilled.
With possessed, you wipe away all the options (which I understand is generally the reason why they are frowned upon), their role is clear, their application is clear, their deployment is clear.
With the way I approach them, there is no mystery, there is no randomness that would negatively affect you.
They do their job and allow others do focus on other aspects of their inclusion.

From a strategic sense, plasma weapons, daemon weapons, and kharn the betrayer all have a very strong reward to make up for their 1 in 6 risk of doing something you don't want.

Funny, I’m risk averse when it comes to hurting your own guys as opposed to a roll on a table that gives the possessed a flat bonus.

Our chaos dreadnoughts have double that chance(while some can be reduced by weapon swaps and placement) and just do not have some great reward that makes them worth it in most cases.

Funny you should mention Dreads…during my time with Crap Legion I had the fortunate occurrence to have good experiences with it and that’s playing with it turning full around and shooting something behind him…now should I play what others think is the correct way, it can only be better.
As for the crazies…with the ‘right’ way of playing them it’s a lot more reliable to do good things for you.
As for blood rage, dreads should be 2DCCW or DCCW+wpn…and since they are a close infantry support platform it’s not a bad thing for them to rage forward…with a MM/DCCW, I lost very little raging 2-3 turns…and during turns 4-7 raging will likely get him into combat…so no biggie.

My problem with possessed has more to do with their point cost than anything else, but they also have a lot of potential risk based around their daemonkin roll(modified by your own army setup, your experience playing them, and your opponent and his army) There is plenty of room for having some fun risk in a csm army while still measuring that risk as worthwhile or not.

No aguement on their crazy pricing.
Risky Daemonkin Rolls…still see it that way…
Just take them at face value and deploy them. Then 5/6 of the powers they get won’t affect what they essentially do, while the last 1/6 just makes them a distraction unit that powers forward…there is no risk nor uncertainty. Profit?

A Squad of Possessed

DarkHound — GMT

Sanctjud wrote:With a generalist squad, they offer you a menu of deployment options and what to engage etc. With that menu you get to pick and choose. There is an opportunity cost here as well, setting them up in one spot to deal with Item one inconveniences the rest of the list as they could have used their other abilities on another target. You might get tempted into different directions all good, and all but one are fulfilled.
With possessed, you wipe away all the options (which I understand is generally the reason why they are frowned upon), their role is clear, their application is clear, their deployment is clear.
With the way I approach them, there is no mystery, there is no randomness that would negatively affect you.

I found this interesting, because although we are on the same side, it is exactly the opposite of what I'm saying. In my list their role is vague, their application is variable and their deployment is convoluted.

Re:A Squad of Possessed

kid_happy — GMT

The Great Enemy wrote:You need more. 7 isn't enough really for an effective unit. Since they do have the potential to be so devastating, they become prime targets as they cross the board to get into hand-to-hand.

I, for example, try not to field a unit of less than 15, closer to a full 20.
In a prime example, my 20-strong squad tore apart three full units of Black Templar in about 2 1/2 turns.

It may seem a bit pricey to field a full unit, but it's better than going with a cheaper one and having only a couple survive long enough.
This is, if course, only my opinion, and is completely subjective.

This is how I run mine. 20 strong unit with the MoT. I found the smaller units got gutted before the got where they were going. I'd like to try two units of ten in Rhino's though. Warp Spiders tend to really work the Possessed over.

A Squad of Possessed

Sanctjud — GMT

@Darkhound:
It was actually my point. The point of view was supposed to be 'different'

@kid_happy:
I've never tried a 20 man possessed. Sounds balls, but risking sounding like a hater, that's a lot of points for what you get, and the inability for the to get into a transport furthur limits their ability to contribute to the game until late.

They look like a great tarpit/12" area of no go for infantry squads.

The only issue is echoing a point from the 'opposition' side: Walkers, the AV12 and up kind.
With a small squad you save points for a squad to handle said enemy unit.
With a large sqauad you strain the army and offer a much bigger target for neutralization.

A Squad of Possessed

I grappled the shoggoth — GMT

20 possessed with MoN walking across the table would be a huge pain in the balls to get rid of. Ive used 10 with MoS in a raider before. Great fun when you roll power weapons or rending.

A Squad of Possessed

Halsfield — GMT

I grappled the shoggoth wrote:20 possessed with MoN walking across the table would be a huge pain in the balls to get rid of. Ive used 10 with MoS in a raider before. Great fun when you roll power weapons or rending.

You don't think in that situation the MoT would be better? The biggest danger they have walking out in the open usually isn't from short range anti-infantry/meq weapons, but more long range heavy ordnance/etc that will negate their regular save and have little trouble blowing past even their increased toughness.

mrwittwer wrote:The chaos gods are fickle. Thats why chaos is random, it is ever changing. Just like the gods themselves. Read the chaos daemons codex. It explains how the gods work.

I'm not sure who you intended this for...but I think it is pretty obvious that the chaos gods are fickle and ever-changing. There is this one guy called Tzeentch also known as the lord of change...

I also think you should be aware that not all chaos armies are chaos-worshipping but still may take risks to gain rewards more recklessly than loyalists or other armies like the eldar. Dreadnoughts certainly don't have to be crazed solely because of chaos influence but could be because of the entombing process or they were mad before they ever "died".

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sanctjud wrote:
@Halsfield:
Well, the rewards are not hard to see...

My post was a response in a general sense to your comment that a chaos player should grow a pair and be fine with risk in any form(not in any way about possessed specifically). I was saying that even if you're taking on risk, you can make sure the risks are worth the reward. I feel that the risks you take with plasma(on the right squad), daemon weapons, and kharn are well worth it because the risk is quite low (greater than 80% of the time something good will happen to you and something bad will happen to your enemy), and the rewards are quite great(decent amounts of tough troops dead).

Conversely, I feel that the reward (regardless of the risk which we could argue about for days) is not worth it with possessed and dreads (especially for their points).

Sanctjud wrote:
Here is another point of view, what if the lack of options is a good thing?

I understand what you're saying,but I really don't agree. I just do not see an experienced player losing focus and using his csms in an inefficient way simply because they can fill a lot of different roles. I still feel other units fill the possessed's role better,for less points quite often, and still have flexibility to do other things when the game's events call for it. I could even say a unit that is 100% only able to hurt things in CC is slightly predictable and could be used against you.

Obviously we're going to keep disagreeing here so I think it is better if we stop going around and around in circles. I will use my possessed for their wings and other amazingly cool bits(using other elite/troop options to fill the possessed's role), and you can use your possessed as tough CC monsters with a slightly random element thrown in to keep your opponent on their toes. The second they drop the point cost on possessed to a reasonable level (or allow us to pick our gift before the game begins) I will be all over them.

Sanctjud wrote:during my time with Crap Legion I had the fortunate occurrence to have good experiences...

As for blood rage, dreads should be 2DCCW or DCCW+wpn…

I mentioned that their risk can be reduced by proper equipping and placement of the unit, but even when this is done they are not a good unit for the points. There are better units for long range and/or armored support, and there are better ways of getting strong melee attacks in a hardened infantry unit. They are a big target, have poor front armor, have a 2/6 chance to do something you don't want them doing(again, this can be altered by equipment and playstyle), and effectively have one wound which can be taken by a wide variety of common weapons. The risk can be high, and even when it is not the reward is low.

I also don't see how you having a good experience with a unit makes them good or bad when discussing what players in general should take in their armies. If you had a good experience there are plenty of bad experiences all over the battle report forums and in FLGS around the world. Those still happen even when they have taken precautions to reduce the risk of the crazed roll. It just isn't a good way to prove a point.

Sanctjud wrote:
Risky Daemonkin Rolls…still see it that way…

I see any daemonkin roll other than a 6 as having not gotten your points worth, so yes I say it is a risk to take them. I did also say that the risk can be reduced based on what your opponent brings to the table, your experience using the other daemonkin rolls, and your own army covering for any "weaknesses" the possessed's have. For instance if your opponent is taking a lot of units that are easily eaten by a tough CC unit they are less risky because regardless of the DK roll they will be effective (albeit still overpriced).

A Squad of Possessed

mrwittwer — GMT

Halsfield wrote:
From a fluff sense, not very many chaos marine armies/renegades are bloodthirsty to the exclusion of all else. For instance I doubt an alpha legion commander would rush off blindly onto the battlefield to make some chaos god happy or use blood-crazed dreadnoughts when they could demolish their own lines just as easily as the opponents. The only legions/warbands I agree would do something like that would be berzerkers, word bearers, and possibly slaanesh cultists due to their zealot nature. So I think the idea that chaos players need to use these types of risky weapons to be "chaos-y" is wrong.

When what gives you power is random, your power is random. Sometimes its good, somtimes its bad.

And not all dreads are crazy. Most of them arent, the fact that they are never allowed to sleep drives them to insanity. That's why they remove the sarcophagus from the machine when not in use. And they chain up the dreanought because they fear that if even a tiny bit of the host's soul remains it could kill them all.

While i agree not all chaos cults are not willing to sacrifice themselves or take unneeded risks, the idea of chaos is change. Shouldnt the codex reflect that?

And the current codex is by far less random than previous codex's.

Is it worth it? Is it strong? As long as you know what you are doing.

Maybe thats your problem?

A Squad of Possessed

Iron_Chaos_Brute — GMT

Late to the thread

My PoV? You'll be surprised to lear that I love Possessed on the tabletop.

The problem? I don't love them as much as the things they take force org slots and points from.

If they were FA, with a Winged option, I'd run them in a heartbeat.

A Squad of Possessed

Sanctjud — GMT

(Note, can’t get to all points I’d like, it’s getting late)

The reward I see to using Possessed are hard to quantify in relation to things like Plamsa and DWs.
Mainly Fleet/Scouts, you are their earlier…the rewards here are huge, maybe eclipsing the other options.

All these powers help them in combat with different rewards associated.
-Earlier into combat is huge.
-Three offensive powers ranging from better MEQ killing, taking on anything, and mass wounding tougher models.
-Lastly a meh but interesting combination of defenses.

I find scouts/fleet/powerweapons/rending to be highly desirable…actually scouts used to be the horrid in 4th, but so good in 5th.
The more average ones from my point of view is furious charge and FNP.
________________________---------

Again, the grow a pair comment was a joke…a Warmachine joke…which I guess I should have spelled out instead of rely on the emocon to convey that…/sigh.

_______________________------------

I wasn’t talking about using generalist poorly, I was talking about how they will always have an opportunity cost in terms of engaging one aspect they can fight and not the other.
What I was trying to say is that possessed are very clear in what they do and has no opportunity cost in that regard.
Now, on the flip side, it’s just saying that CSM are flexible and possessed are not…which I agree.
It seems contradictory I will admit…it may just be I’m working at a lost cause.
__________________________-------

Dreads equipped safely are cheaper than loyalists and are the only armor apart from rhinos in the elites slot if you are hurting for more armor.
They then get bonuses of double shots or fleet.
The only problem is if you place stuff in the 45 degree zone in front of the dread and rolling fire frenzy, it is something you can avoid (outside of lash).

_____________________---------

My whole goal is to present these ‘lesser’ choices as FUNCTIONAL. I have noted that the possessed are overpriced and have no arguments there, but I’ve seen that people don’t give possessed any credit for being a very decent unit with that one issue aside…as you said, if that one thing is changed to an appropriate level, they will be ‘workable’ to the….risk averse (for a lack of a better term I was going for).

________

.
.
..

Lets try this. They are butt ugly expensive, yes.

But are they functional? Can they perform a role in the army? Are they a sort of hybrid combat unit that will obviously not top the specialists?
Can their application make-up for the things they lack?

A Squad of Possessed

KommanderKurtikai — GMT

ive killed blood4khornes possesed every game hes used them, theyve never survived and only sometimes done something before their grisly death, i fear the berzerkers way more then i fear the possesed, unless e somehow rolls power weapons