<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "A good Chaos HQ choice."]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/69.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net A good Chaos HQ choice. HQ. I don't want a Daemon Prince so don't mention that, I want to play for fun more than for winning. Im thinking about a chaos sorcerer but how should I kit him out? I am getting noise marines so I might give him lash. What else would be a good choice? Lucius seems good and Typhus also seems good, my army is Slaanesh based and I play against Necrons. To many choices ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1373982.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1373982.page GMT A good Chaos HQ choice. hq using lash, is not going to be seen as fun. Lash is a very competetive playstyle.

If you want fun or interesting, i suggest fabius bile, typhus, lucius, or perhaps a nurgle sorcerer.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1374082.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1374082.page GMT Re:A good Chaos HQ choice. DP.

I prefer using a sorc/lord with wings + MoN/Tzeentch for the extra survivability, but slaanesh is a great option as well since they are mostly CC oriented. If you go with a sorc I would definitely pick up warptime for the CC goodness and if you pick up a familiar go with maybe winds of chaos for a template that kills everything under it on a 4+ or lash (but as someone said this is the cheese option, not the "fun" option). If you go lord a slaanesh daemon weapon is extremely good for fighting anything with multiple wounds, but idk if that is the most efficient choice against necrons.

If you do go with wings I usually roll my HQ with a squad of raptors with melta + champ with 2x LClaws for MC/HQ/Hardened Toughness killing and for counter-charging anything that gets bogged down fighting your troops.

Typhus is ok, but a bit overpriced. He's excellent against tyranids and is just a tough mother all around. If you're going all slaanesh and want a tough but relatively cheap CC unit lucius is pretty good. He has that excellent armor that throws S4 hits back at any unit he makes a save against and amazing WS. Unfortunately he has a low number of attacks

Fabius bile was a member of the emperor's children so would fit as a slaanesh-ish choice. He has a really fun pre-battle roll that can give you some interesting units to play around with, but he can also kill off an entire squad before they ever set foot on the board. He is a fairly decent CC troop on his own as well.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1374288.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1374288.page GMT Re:A good Chaos HQ choice. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1374289.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1374289.page GMT A good Chaos HQ choice. CC, with up to 15 attacks at S6 (or 5) with no armour saves allowed.

lets see the necrons get up from that!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1374579.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1374579.page GMT A good Chaos HQ choice.
In addition, 1/3 of the time the DW goes stupid and triest to help the Necrons.

So, yes, I do agree on the entertainment value.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1374592.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1374592.page GMT A good Chaos HQ choice. MoK, Deamon weapon. 140 points

up to 17 attacks on the charge hilarious fun, unreliable, but I play one in fun games just because of the amount of attacks it could possibly get ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1374599.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1374599.page GMT A good Chaos HQ choice.
Kharn ftw.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1374615.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1374615.page GMT A good Chaos HQ choice. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1374625.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1374625.page GMT Re:A good Chaos HQ choice.
Go for Lucius. His Armour of Shrieking Souls is pretty fun (automatic S4 ignores armour hit on any saves), he has a Doom Siren, and nobody will accuse you of trying to be competitive.


Well the last part of that is really damn true. Wohoo a S4 power weapon on a pricey non-EW special character, hold on I need a pen to write home about this awesomeness. There's a fine line between "Fun" and "Bad" Lucius is so far on the bad side he isn't even aware there's a fun one. I'd rather have a Slaanesh lord with a Blissgiver, at least then I feel like I'm doing something with the HQ slot.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1374684.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1374684.page GMT A good Chaos HQ choice.
Somewhere around here I have a nice analysis of Lucius killing a unit of ten Bloodclaws when they charge him: it takes three rounds of combat, but it happens.

The funny thing is that Lucius' value goes up as you throw him into more and more dangerous situations.

Take a unit of 30 Orks including a Nob with a Powerklaw, for example, and compare Lucius to Kharn (supposing that they've decided to be idiots and charged the mob without any support):

Lucius gets 5 attacks, hitting on 3+, wounding on 4+, and no armour saves. Kharn gets 6 attacks, hitting on 2+, wounding on 2+ and no armour saves. Kharn wins eh? Well...

Expected value of dead Orks (K): 4.17
Expected value of dead Orks (L): 1.67

The Orks now reply. Against Kharn we can expect (rounding down) 25 Boyz, armed with Sluggas and Choppas, and a Nob with a Powerklaw. So hitting on 4+, wounding on 5+ and failing armour saves on 2-, and hitting on 4+, wounding on 2+ and failing invulnerable saves on 4-.

Expected value of wounds on Kharn (B): 4.17
Expected value of wounds on Kharn (N): 0.83 (ID)

So we can expect Kharn to go down under a scrum of Orks having taken four of the filthy green-skinned savages with him.

Against Lucius we have we can expect (rounding up) 27 Boyz, armed with Sluggas and Choppas, and a Nob with a Powerklaw. So hitting on 4+, wounding on 5+ and failing armour saves on 2-, and hitting on 4+, wounding on 2+ and failing invulnerable saves on 4-. Supposing each villain has been surrounded by six Orks in base to base contact then:

Expected value of wounds on Lucius (B): 4.17
Expected value of wounds on Lucius (N): 0.83 (ID)

However, after the Boyz have attacked, and after they can be expected to beat Lucius to a pleasant pulp, they will suffer 8.33 additional wounds as the Armour of Shrieking Souls makes them pay for their temerity.

This means that while Kharn inflicts 4.17:5.00 expected wounds, Lucius inflicts 10.00:5.00 expected wounds.

In other words, in this situation we can expect both to go down fighting. At the end of the combat Kharn leaves us with 25 Boys and a Nob, and Lucius leaves us with 19 Boys and a Nob. Advantage: Lucius.

Suppose we have a similar situation: The Orks charge Lucius or Kharn!

Kharn has 5 attacks, hitting on 2+, wounding on 3+, and ignoring armour saves. Lucius has 4 attacks, hitting on 3+, wounding on 4+, and ignoring armour saves.

Expected value of dead Orks (K): 2.78
Expected value of dead Orks (L): 1.33

Rounding up, Kharn kills 3 Orks before they can bury him under a mass of Orks, and Lucius kills 1 Ork. Attacking back we see 104 attacks on Kharn and 112 attacks on Lucius, both at 4+ to hit, 4+ to wound, and 2- to fail saves, followed by 4 attacks at 4+ to hit, 2+ to wound, and 4- to fail saves. Both are again surrounded by 6 Orks. O = N + B.

Expected value of wounds on Kharn (O): 9.78
Expected value of wounds on Lucius (O): 9.94

But thanks to the Armour of Shrieking Souls, Lucius can be expected to add another 19 Orks.

In the end, after the Orks have trampled both Lucius and Kharn into the dirt, Kharn can be expected to leave 2.78 Orks dead, and Lucius leaves 20.00 dead.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1374767.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1374767.page GMT Re:A good Chaos HQ choice.
You've also restored my faith in humanty's ability to convince themselves bad ideas are really good if the stars align. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1374803.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1374803.page GMT A good Chaos HQ choice.
Supposing Kharn gets the charge that's 6 attacks at 2+ to hit, 4+ to wound, and 2- to fail saves. Lucius gets 5 attacks at 3+ to hit, 4+ to wound, and 2- to fail saves.

Expected value of dead Terminators (K): 0.83
Expected value of dead Terminators (L): 0.56

Rounding up they both kill a Terminator. The Terminators then beat both to death using their Thunderhammers. It's 4+ to hit both, 2+ to wound both, and 4- to fail saves. Supposing that they are both surrounded we see:

Expected value of wounds on Kharn (T): 2.22 (ID)
Expected value of wounds on Lucius (T): 0.56 (ID)

So rounded up they both get killed. So sad. But Lucius takes 1.11 more Terminators down with him, thanks to the Armour of Shrieking Souls. That means that the final score is 1.67 for Lucius, and 0.83 for Kharn. Lucius only doubles Kharn's score this time, but there's simply not enough Assault Terminators in the combat to really help the Armour of Shrieking Souls overcome the deficit in attacks caused by the Lash of Torment.

Heck, I'm bored, let's see how both would fair plunging into a unit of 30 Termagants with Toxin Sacs, Counter-Attack, Defensive Grenades and Preferred Enemy.

Kharn has 5 attacks at 2+ to hit, 2+ to wound, and ignores saves. Lucius has 4 attacks at 3+ to hit, 3+ to wound, and ignores saves.

Expected value of wounds on Termagants (K): 3.47
Expected value of wounds on Termagants (L): 1.78

So let's give Kharn the benefit of the doubt and say he killed 4 Termagants even though we've been rounding up or down as we would normally, while Lucius killed 2. They're surrounded!

So 26 Termagants hit Kharn on 4+ (re-rolling misses), wound on 4+, and fail armour saves on 2-. They Counter-Attack on 10-, and don't on 11+.

28 Termagants hit Lucius on 4+ (re-rolling misses), wound on 4+, and fail armour saves on 2-. They Counter-Attack on 10-, and don't on 11+.

Expected value of wounds on Kharn (O): 6.21
Expected value of wounds on Lucius (O): 5.94

The Armour of Shrieking Souls inflicts an additional 12.73 wounds on the Termagants.

So again, both are killed, but Lucius takes 14.15 Termagants back to Hell with him, while Kharn manages a magnificent 3.47 tally of skulls.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mastershake:

So, you'd prefer a special character that eats a few armour saves, dies, and doesn't take any with him? Duly noted.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1374826.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1374826.page GMT A good Chaos HQ choice. MEQs and dueling infantry HQs. He is also apparently really good at devouring hordes (so long as he dies). I dunno, he sounds like a pretty good HQ to me. I might have to try him some time.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1374867.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1374867.page GMT A good Chaos HQ choice. Lucius's special rules actually contradict each other...

He has an attack reducing ability while at the same time has an offensive ability that relies on more attacks placed upon him.

IMO, take a more serious approach...will Kharn or Lucius ever engage an unmolested mob of orcs alone?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1374878.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1374878.page GMT Re:A good Chaos HQ choice. HQ V horde scenarios. I am very tempted to try Lucius, he seems underrated, fun and lethal. Kharn just wouldn't fit in with my army anyway, even though he's really cool.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1374882.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1374882.page GMT A good Chaos HQ choice.
But let's throw in a quirk. Let's assume, for the sake of entertainment, that a Sorcerer with the Lash of Submission has made it so that either of these mighty villians will be able to charge 1". So let's begin with the shooting phase:

Kharn opens up with his Plasma Pistol. That's 2+ to hit, 2+ to wound, no armour saves, and on a 1 he takes wound (so expected value of doing a wound minus the expected value of taking one). Lucius, on the other hand, get the Grey Hunters lined up for a perfect ten Doom Siren. That's automatically hitting, 3+ to wound, and no armour saves. On all ten.

Expected value of wounds on Grey Hunters (K): 0.63
Expected value of wounds on Grey Hunters (L): 6.67

So Kharn can be expected to kill one Grey Hunter in the Shooting phase before piling in. Lucius can be expected to kill seven. So they both pile in. Kharn has 6 attacks, 2+ to hit, 2+ to wound, no armour saves. Lucius has 5 attacks, 3+ to hit, 4+ to wound.

Expected value of wounds on Grey Hunters (K): 4.17
Expected value of wounds on Grey Hunters (L): 1.67

So Kharn kills 5 Grey Hunters in total, before they can attack back, and Lucius kills 9.

Attacking back the Grey Hunters, supposing the best equipped survived, we have 5 attack Kharn with one having 1D6 Rending attacks, another with 1-2 Power fist attacks, and three with 6-9 attacks. We have 1 attack Lucius. Let's check for the Powerfist and the 1D6 Rending attacks, and the Banner for completeness. They hit on 4+, wound on 4+ (Powerfist on 2+), and the Rending ignores armour on wound rolls of 6.

Expected value of wounds on Kharn (GH): 1.68
Expected value of wounds on Lucius (K): (0.15, 0.29, 0.17)
The above ordered as Grey Hunter w/Banner, Mark of the Wulfen, Powerfist.

Consequently we can expect (0.08, 0.15, 0.09) wounds on the Grey Hunter from the Armour of Shrieking Souls. Rounding up and down as normal we can expected Kharn to take 2 wounds and win combat by a margin of 3. Lucius will take no wounds and win combat by a margin of 2.

That means that the Grey Hunter will have a 38% chance of remaining to face Lucius, while the other Grey Hunters, the luckier ones, will have a 27% chance of remaining. If the one facing Lucius breaks and runs, and he catches them (I6 vs I4), then it faces 2 saving throws for No Retreat! If the ones facing Kharn break and run, and he catches them (I5 v I4), then they face 3 saving throws. If No Retreat! is factored in, then it's likely that the remaining Grey Hunter facing Lucius will buy it (0.67), and one of the Grey Hunters facing Kharn will buy it (1.00).

Lucius can be expected to murder an entire Grey Hunter squad, regarded as the gold standard for infantry, with no cost to himself, while Kharn will muddle through with a couple of wounds and will remain locked in combat for another round.

How do you like them apples? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1374931.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1374931.page GMT A good Chaos HQ choice. Basically: throw in lash, it makes things better...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Meh, it still doesn't look realistic to me.
The maths look good, but I'd rather see it happen and I just don't see Lucius used that often...even on the bat reps online.

Anyone find any bat reps with Lucius?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1374954.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1374954.page GMT A good Chaos HQ choice.
If you're going to take Noise Marines, then Lucius is a great HQ. Back him up with a Sorcerer with the Lash of Submission, and no one will complain until Lucius gets into combat or uses his Doom Siren on a unit that's already been hit with a Noise Champion's Doom Siren after being Lashed into position.

Speaking of throwing Lucius out there on his own, yes, he is actually one of those Independent Characters that can thrive on his own: attach him to a unit of Noise Marines and have them camp an objective: he'll grant some protection in close combat, and if something big and slow closes with the Noise Marines he can rush out and lock it down. Avoid Dreadnoughts at all costs though.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1374978.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1374978.page GMT Re:A good Chaos HQ choice. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1374980.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1374980.page GMT A good Chaos HQ choice. SW player will remove casualties from those able to be assaulted, so unless you start off in perfect range, after killing so many with a shooting attack a unit (including Lucius) will often not get to charge at all.

Anyways, Nurglich suggested the following HQ in another thread, and I like it quite a bit:

Sorcerer, Mark of Slaanesh, Lash of Submission, Familiar, Warp Time.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1374981.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1374981.page GMT A good Chaos HQ choice.
Sorcerer, Mark of Slaanesh, Lash of Submission, Familiar, Warp Time.

Basically, you pay more for more flexibility... too bad you can't use both. edit (at the same time)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1374992.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1374992.page GMT A good Chaos HQ choice.
That's why I qualified with the Lash of Submission affecting the unit so that neither Lucius nor Kharn need to charge more than 1". While smart players will use the casualty removal system to prevent an assault, you can mitigate it by using the Lash of Submission, shooting from an awkward side (making sure that the casualties that would have to be removed would be useful and important ones), not maximizing the number of casualties so that even if you get lucky you won't killl enough to be left out of combat, and making sure you close to point blank (1") in the Movement phase.

So smart players will avoid charges by dumb players, but smart players can get the charge (barring difficult terrain): they just have to judge how much shooting is too much shooting. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1375001.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1375001.page GMT A good Chaos HQ choice. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1375539.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1375539.page GMT A good Chaos HQ choice. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1375678.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1375678.page GMT A good Chaos HQ choice. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1375742.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1375742.page GMT A good Chaos HQ choice.
In actual combat, when you are charged, you are not in solo (IC can only leave unit in your own turn), so you would never got the chance to take that many saves on Lucius himself.

If the ork player's brain has not be replaced by a squig yet, he would allocate the attacks from boyz to Lucius's companions, and the PK attacks to Lucius himself.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1375771.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1375771.page GMT A good Chaos HQ choice.
Imagine feel no pain. Now when he passes armour saves he hurts you, but half of the times he fails his save, he recovers. These don't do wounds to the enemy, but it keeps him alive long enough to continue to dish out damage. GW just doesn't know how to design good characters half the time. Vulkan? GREAT character. Good against hordes, good against monstrous creatures, good shooting weapon, army-wide buff, and durability. Broken? Not really, though people complain about the very-tailored vulkan list. Assuming the entire list isn't COMPLETELY spammed out to abuse his rule, he's really a good, solid character with a lot going for him.

Not so much characters like Lucius, which is a weaker chaos lord with a suicidal quirk. Agreed that the lash makes him a conundrum since it reduces enemy attacks, yet he's trying to get hurt. Also they did what they always do with chaos and gave him REALLY HIGH WS YARGH! When really something like Preferred Enemy is both more appropriate for a duelist and better in-game. His old Martial Pride rule about being reduced to 2 base attacks versus a bunch of WS2 scrubs, and moving to base 5 when touching someone WS5 was awesome. Such things are gone in the new chaos codex.


But back to the discussion! A Nurgle lod with a daemon weapon is a solid choice. Wounds anything on a 4+ so he can be useful against wraithlords and such, and he's great at killing MEQs since he gets to re-roll wounds against anything T4 or less. Typhus is pretty neat too since he gets that benefit AND can use his force weapon effect on said wounds. Put the nurgle lord on a bike and all you really fear is A) stabbing yourself with the daemon weapon and B) powerfists.

And, though you don't like princes, I think you assumed lash princes. A Tzeentch daemon prince with Warp Time and Wind of Chaos does very very well. 4+ invul, and a flamer template that wounds on a 4+ with re-rolls, plus close combat ability is really amazing. Not "broken" like people think lash is, but quite capable of being very effective.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1375787.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1375787.page GMT A good Chaos HQ choice.
MinionOfDaCube wrote:the chaos lord with daemon weapon and mark of khorne is rather entertaining in CC, with up to 15 attacks at S6 (or 5) with no armour saves allowed.

lets see the necrons get up from that!


17 attacks actually
3A (base)+ 1A (Mark of khorne) +1A (Charge) + 2D6 (Daemon Weapon) = 0*-17 attacks

*when a 1 is rolled for determining the number of attacks, no attacks are made.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1375846.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1375846.page GMT A good Chaos HQ choice.
lordrevege wrote:
MinionOfDaCube wrote:the chaos lord with daemon weapon and mark of khorne is rather entertaining in CC, with up to 15 attacks at S6 (or 5) with no armour saves allowed.

lets see the necrons get up from that!


17 attacks actually
3A (base)+ 1A (Mark of khorne) +1A (Charge) + 2D6 (Daemon Weapon) = 0*-17 attacks

*when a 1 is rolled for determining the number of attacks, no attacks are made.


But it's only Str 4, or 5 if you're on a jugger.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1375849.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1375849.page GMT A good Chaos HQ choice. MoN. The only other thing I'd bother taking is the Lightning Claw, even without a pair. Having a combi-plas is nice with BS5, infact usually better than getting an extra attack so long as you're only in 2 or 3 rounds of combat a game.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1375864.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1375864.page GMT A good Chaos HQ choice.
Moreso the psychic powers would fail 50% of the time in addition to their natural rate of failure.

Regarding Lucius, it could be the case that Lucius leaves his unit prior to being charged. Just throwing that out there...

You could also use Tactics. For example, form a T with the main body of his squad well back, and a chain of four Noise Marines extended joining him to the back line, five Noise Marines over 6" away from Lucius. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1375890.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1375890.page GMT A good Chaos HQ choice.
DarkHound wrote:Yeah, and that actually happens rather frequently. If you are going with a Daemon Weapon, I'd rather take an Undivided one. S5 is nice, and it is economical. If you're going to be extravagent, take MoN. The only other thing I'd bother taking is the Lightning Claw, even without a pair. Having a combi-plas is nice with BS5, infact usually better than getting an extra attack so long as you're only in 2 or 3 rounds of combat a game.


I would always rather take a Plaguebringer than an Undivided Daemon Weapon. An Undivided DW is only better against T2 and T3 opponents; against T4 the Plaguebringer is better, against T5 they're the same, and against anything above the Plaguebringer is better again. So in short, an Undivided DW is great if you plan for your Chaos Lord to be slaughtering grots all game.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1375918.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1375918.page GMT A good Chaos HQ choice. MoN has really helped my Sorcerer survive; usually only Instant Death wounds get tossed on him. I expect the defensive benefits of MoN to hold true for the Lord: it helps against anything that doesn't matter. That being said, is the increase in performance worth 20 points?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1375947.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1375947.page GMT A good Chaos HQ choice.
Remember we've opted out of daemon prince, so once that shark's been jumped, our other choices are pretty much "oh, well, then whatever you want to waste points on is fine"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1376002.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1376002.page GMT A good Chaos HQ choice. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1376080.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1376080.page GMT A good Chaos HQ choice. DP i say.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1376426.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1376426.page GMT Re:A good Chaos HQ choice. The Land Raider can move 12", Chaos Lord disembarks 2" from land raider, run d6" , then charge 12"giving a total threat range of 27 - 32 inches! Turn 1 assault with a daemon weapon that instant deaths everything or if needed has MeltaBombs to disable a tank in close combat before it is even turn 1. Granted he will then be massacred but hey that is part of his fun! And you can always be really "fun" and have two chaos lords riding in land raiders. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1376499.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1376499.page GMT A good Chaos HQ choice. If he got Eternal Warrior yes.
But he doesn't, so hell no in my book.

@SirRouga:
It is a nice charge range...but it's a lone IC with a str 4 weapon...
"Fun" is subjective, I wouldn't find it fine throwing away the figurehead of ones army.../shrug.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1376801.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1376801.page GMT A good Chaos HQ choice.
That's something many people forget: the advantage of Independent Characters is that they can join units to be protected from shooting, and from combat. Sure, they're attacked as separate units in combat, but that's only if there's someone left to attack back.

If you want characterful, stick Typhus in a unit of Plague Marines. If you want characterful but effective, stick him in a unit of Possessed. If you want just effective, stick him in a unit of Berzerkers. If you want to Deep Strike him, stick him in a unit of Obliterators.

If you want him to assault out of a Land Raider, and you're will to both break the bank and take risks, take a unit of four Terminator Champions with two pairs of Lightening Claws and an Icon of Khorne.

That'll be 20 attacks on the charge, re-rolling wounds, ignoring saves at I4, plus Typhus' A3(4)+1D6 on the charge, re-rolling wounds against T4-, and ignoring saves at I5.

If the Land Raider gets close enough, you can get a free Wind of Chaos from Typhus before the charge, or if there's a horde you'll have trouble murdering then a free Nurgle's Rot.

If you're foot-slogging, then go for the "Conga-Line" with Typhus bringing up the rear a good 7" behind the front-most model. If the unit is charged from the front, then Typhus will never get into contact with the enemy until the second round of combat, and if the unit charges, Typhus won't get into contact with the eney until the second round of combat. While in combat, however, he can still set off free Nurgle's Rots.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1377555.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1377555.page GMT A good Chaos HQ choice. .

I've killed him/seen him die too often, but I will admit never in a top-form competitive game.
___________________

As for free Nurgle's 'Farts', I like that conga line idea used in that way.
I generally see the 'conga-line' ( I call it the lightbulb formation) used for fist champions.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1377691.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1377691.page GMT A good Chaos HQ choice. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1377694.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1377694.page GMT A good Chaos HQ choice. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1377895.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1377895.page GMT A good Chaos HQ choice. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1377972.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1377972.page GMT A good Chaos HQ choice.
tau_etheral wrote:Personnally i think the funnest is a sorcerer w gift of chaos, i mean look at your opponents face when he sees a model of his like aunva (250 pts) turns in to a blood thirsty pile of meat.


Don't forget that the Mark of Tzeentch means you get to use two per turn! Unfortunately, since it's used at the beginning of the turn, the Sorcerer has to survive two CCs with the big, powerful dude (not Aun'Va, lol) before he gets to try to use it.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1377980.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1377980.page GMT A good Chaos HQ choice. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1377994.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1377994.page GMT A good Chaos HQ choice. Who the hell uses Aun'Va?
Oh, and it's bad to post points costs of units needlessly.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1378005.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1378005.page GMT A good Chaos HQ choice.
Nurglitch wrote:Warptime and the Mark of Tzeentch help with that. Personally I prefer the Gift of Chaos on an Aspiring Sorcerer. He's protected by Thousand Suns and the Thousand Suns look exactly like the kind of thing you want to jump into combat with.


But then the sorcerer does not have Bolt of Change, which is arguably the most important power for the sorcerer to have.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1378006.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1378006.page GMT A good Chaos HQ choice.
willydstyle wrote:
Nurglitch wrote:Warptime and the Mark of Tzeentch help with that. Personally I prefer the Gift of Chaos on an Aspiring Sorcerer. He's protected by Thousand Suns and the Thousand Suns look exactly like the kind of thing you want to jump into combat with.


But then the sorcerer does not have Bolt of Change, which is arguably the most important power for the sorcerer to have.


Woah there, seriously? Lets not open that can of worms...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1378016.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1378016.page GMT A good Chaos HQ choice. HQ choices, and I'm surprised that anyone would claim the Bolt of Change is the most important power for a Sorcerer of Tzeentch to have when clearly that power is Warptime. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1378286.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1378286.page GMT A good Chaos HQ choice. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1378398.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1378398.page GMT Re:A good Chaos HQ choice.
I'll agree with Nurglitch and echo Sanctjud: wat


Actually, in a 500 pt. tournament I did locally very recently, I ran a Tzeentchian Sorcerer with Warptime and Bolt of Change as my HQ, and I've got to say that he performed admirably, due in no small part to that Bolt of Change. While playing against a Sisters army (a nightmare for any psyker HQ) I managed to blow the hell out of his Exorcist with a single bolt. I mean, it may not be the most reliable long-range weapon, especially when it comes to medium or heavy tank hunting, but I find it to be pretty incredible for Rhino killing and zapping important models. Warptime really helps cut down on the unreliability brought on by its one-shot nature.

Not saying at all that it's an optimal choice, but I find it to be pretty dang effective.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1378474.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1378474.page GMT A good Chaos HQ choice. TL'ed Lascannons on a Predator.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1378512.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1378512.page GMT Re:A good Chaos HQ choice.
But Bolt of Change aside, and in response to the OP, I consider Chaos Sorcerer's to be a very nice choice for an HQ. They're pretty killy in close combat, and their powers have a variety of utilities, particularly Lash of Submission or Warptime. They can be decently durable when paired with a MoN or MoT, and all in all I consider them worth it.

Plus, the models are badass. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1378527.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1378527.page GMT A good Chaos HQ choice. MoN to be a kind of crap upgrade. The only wounds that'll get lumped on him are usually S8 anyway, so they'll still wound on 2s and probably ignore armor. In a hard-core Nurgle army, it does open up Nurgle's Rot is an excellent horde killer, especially when you're rocking Terminator Armor for the increased base size. It'll make up for the lack of bodies/bolters that comes with 23 points per model, which can make MoN worth it.

Right now I run a Sorcerer with MoT, Warptime and Doombolt. I've found it to be the most versitile build I've ever run, packing a big punch at range or in close combat.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1378582.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1378582.page GMT A good Chaos HQ choice. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1378640.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1378640.page GMT A good Chaos HQ choice. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1378770.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1378770.page GMT A good Chaos HQ choice.
willydstyle wrote:Because without Bolt of Change a Thousand Sons squad can't do anything to a rhino on an objective.


Ah but this isnt exactly true! They could rapid fire bolters into back armor for glancing hits, and if they score enough immobilized and weapon destroyed hits they could kill it. Same with cc It is however, very unlikely. But to say they cannot do anything! i will not hear of it ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1378997.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1378997.page GMT A good Chaos HQ choice.
mrwittwer wrote:
willydstyle wrote:Because without Bolt of Change a Thousand Sons squad can't do anything to a rhino on an objective.


Ah but this isnt exactly true! They could rapid fire bolters into back armor for glancing hits, and if they score enough immobilized and weapon destroyed hits they could kill it. Same with cc It is however, very unlikely. But to say they cannot do anything! i will not hear of it


Unfortunately a game only has a limited number of turns!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1379019.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1379019.page GMT A good Chaos HQ choice. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1379074.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1379074.page GMT A good Chaos HQ choice.
I'll second the Warptime and Doombolt though. Doombolt is surprisingly deadly when it's carefully aimed through the mere manipulation of time itself. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1379099.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1379099.page GMT Re:A good Chaos HQ choice.
Another overlooked bag of fun is Fabius Bile. Chirurgion, Needler, and Rod of Torment are all fun by themselves, but add the Enhanced Warrior effect (a little expensive but the very meaning of fun) and the Chaos never stops!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1379120.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1379120.page GMT A good Chaos HQ choice.
As for willydstyle's rationale for Dust Buckets taking BoC....that's what the rest of the list is supposted to do: bust open transports.

The Dust Buckets are one of the few units that will not be able to suppliment their squads with options. You essentially must compliment them and focus on what makes them good, rather than add elements to make them multi-taskers...

So DoomBolt and Wind come to the fore-front (cheap/maximum offensive respectively)

The oppurtunity cost is huge for BoC and the number of dice to get it working properly is appauling.
If you are relying on them to pop tanks, gak has hit the fan already IMO.

Do you use Dust Buckets willydstyle?

{Just in case, for those who don't know, I nickname Thousand Sons as "Dust Buckets." There is a negative connotation to it}]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1379127.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1379127.page GMT Re:A good Chaos HQ choice.
I don't rely on my infantry to crack the enemy's transports themselves. They have the tools just in case, but it wastes everyone's time if I spend a turn or two opening their can before I can broadside them. To quote a great movie: "I like my food dead before it gets to my plate. Is that too much to ask?" The problem with giving the Thousand Sons a can-opener is that their's is not particularly effective or afflordable (which could describe the entire unit).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1379166.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1379166.page GMT A good Chaos HQ choice. can kill mech is dead because his opponent isn't a dummy.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1379200.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1379200.page GMT A good Chaos HQ choice.
That's an interesting thing about flexibility as a property of armies: either you need to have the entire army flexible by balancing a set of specialized units, or you need to have the entire army flexible by balancing a set of flexible units.

A unit of Thousand Suns including an Aspiring Sorcerer with the Bolt of Change is a flexible unit. However, it's also an expensive unit if you don't go for the minimum number of models. And it's flexible in terms of shooting, but you give up synergy in terms of the Mark of Tzeentch allowing you to combine Warptime with Force Weapon or to case Gift of Chaos twice.

If you make them more flexible in terms of the variety of targets they can engage with shooting, then you either lower their redundancy in order to increase the number of flexible units in the army (two minimal units of Thousand Suns are more expensive than one despite the increase in the flexibility of engaging two units and being engaged as two units), or their synergy.

In terms of going the former route, that of specializing units by putting a Bolt of Change on a Sorcerer, again you have the problem of putting him in a unit, in which case he has to shoot at the same target as the unit, or not putting him in a unit so he can target independently and exposing him to fire. If you're going to expose an HQ to fire, it might as well be a Daemon Prince since you will have all the downsides of using a Daemon Prince with the advantages (such as using two psychic shooting powers).

I think you're better off with Chaos Dreadnoughts with Multi-Meltas and Predators with Autocannons/Lascannon sponsons if you're planning on anti-tank, rather than spending 25 points on a Bolt of Change on either an HQ or Troops choice. That said, I feel inspired to give the Troop Bolt of Change idea a whirl. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1380198.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1380198.page GMT A good Chaos HQ choice.
4 thousand sons, 1 sorcerer (min size squad) bolt of change.

Rhino

Combi melta -or- havoc launcher

The combi melta helps the 1k sons with mech, the havoc with horde.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1380297.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1380297.page GMT A good Chaos HQ choice. MSU then it comes with the pros and cons of it...but...227 w/o the HL seems like an offensive cost for essentially 5 MEQs in a rhino.

I mean... even Legion of The Damned look more economical...and frankly, that's fethed up .]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1380307.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1380307.page GMT A good Chaos HQ choice.
Sanctjud wrote:If you are going MSU then it comes with the pros and cons of it...but...227 w/o the HL seems like an offensive cost for essentially 5 MEQs in a rhino.

I mean... even Legion of The Damned look more economical...and frankly, that's fethed up .


Like I said, I don't really consider Tsons to really be a viable unit, but if you're going to try to cram them in there anyways, Bolt of Change is your best option.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1380324.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1380324.page GMT A good Chaos HQ choice.
If you go with them, go with IMO a total squad size of 7-8 in a rhino with wind of chaos.
Maximum carnage as the rest of the list should be concerned about tank busting cause...

BoC is stupid.

Psy Test, then to hit, then to penetrate, then cover saves if any, then vehicle table.

It's a wanna be multi-melta but without the melta and has the wonderful chance of killing the shooter.

I don't know what your definition of best is, but I guess the point of views are just that different, so far it's just dirt in my book.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1380398.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1380398.page GMT A good Chaos HQ choice. here. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1380588.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/281809/1380588.page GMT