<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "1850 All-Comers Comp CSM"]]>

<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "1850 All-Comers Comp CSM"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/14.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net 1850 All-Comers Comp CSM

DP w/ MoN, Wings, Warptime
DP w/ MoS, Wings, Lash

8 Chosen w/ 5 Flamers in Rhino

7 PM w/ 2 Plasma Guns, Champ w/ PF in Rhino
8 NM w/ Soinc Blasters, Champ w/ PW, Doom Siren in Rhino
10 CSM w/ 2 Melta Guns, IoS, Champ w/ PW in Rhino

3 Oblits
1 Defi
1 Pred (Autocannon w/ Las Sponsons)

1850 Exacly]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1423759.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1423759.page GMT 1850 All-Comers Comp CSM CSM, noise marines defiler, and pred. i know these changes are radical, but here's the replacements and why:

DP, wings, MOS, lash (to replace the warptime gribbly): single lash won't do enough for you to make it worth it at almost any points cost, generally over 750 points.

1x termicide (3 terminators with 3 combi-weapons):
this is the 'open the landraider and lash > charge the contents with zerks' unit. oblits have a tough time with raiders and AV 14 in general, and plague meltas simply don't get in range quickly enough for you to do much good in terms of how much enemy MEQ needs to die for you to win.

2x b/t 8-10 zerks with champ w/ fist and rhino: your list lacks close combat and the answer for CSM is berzerkers.

1X 7-8 plagues w/ 2 meltas (and champ with fist): you'll need another of these for objective grabbing and staying power.

2x oblits: to open transports and blow the bejeesus out of whatever comes out

2x oblits: to open transports and blow the bejeesus out of whatever comes out

2x oblits: to open transports and blow the bejeesus out of whatever comes out
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1423829.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1423829.page GMT 1850 All-Comers Comp CSM
If those units pair up, I can see a world of hurt for your opponents. If you use the same idea with your Oblits and CSMs and target the same units with them, your can have three unit pairs wiping up the floor with your enemies. Use your troops to provide bodies and a volume of bolter fire, and your Olits and DPs to provide quality shooting and punching. This way you have a few autonomous pairs that work well together, even if the other groups get shot up.

Use your Defiler and Predator for the normal stuff they get used for.

The one real change that I would suggest is switching out the flamers on your Chosen for meltaguns. You have lots of anti-infantry with your guys, more tank killers would help you. Especially if you outflank them.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1424707.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1424707.page GMT 1850 All-Comers Comp CSM PM and zerkers". I'm just sick of hearing it, but thanks for the input.

@ Groslon: Thanks for pointing that out, cause I never really have a strategy for my armies, more or less just targets for them to go after. As for the melta guns, I'll take a look at it, thanks for the input.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1428531.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1428531.page GMT 1850 All-Comers Comp CSM CSM comp. list) is chaos-zilla (that's max lash princes, defilers, and dreads). if that interests you, i could write something up.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1428580.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1428580.page GMT 1850 All-Comers Comp CSM CSM only rely on Lash+PM+Oblits. I'll admit that I have to play test this list more, but what I've noticed it that people fear DPs way more than they should. Thats why I did two different ones here, since they'll take out one then still have to deal with the other one. Either way one will survive and able to do its job.

It's just that I believe that the CSM codex isn't one dimensional, and that they can make various builds that are all good. Thats what I'm trying to do here, make a different, but still good list.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1428833.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1428833.page GMT 1850 All-Comers Comp CSM Linky

Other Linky

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1428864.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1428864.page GMT 1850 All-Comers Comp CSM http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1431767.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1431767.page GMT 1850 All-Comers Comp CSM

Iron_Chaos_Brute wrote:Linky

Other Linky

I have serious problems with both of those links and the strategies they provide. They are bemoaning things like oblits not being able to pop transports and lash not working against vehicles/armor. So what? When something stops working you change your tactics. Oblits are terribly overcosted for popping transports. For a squad of 3 you get 3 shots for 225 points. Thats stupid for killing transports. Get something like a squad of havocs with autocannons if you want long range transport popping. They are 155pts for 8, count them: 8, str 7 48" shots that destroy rhinos and the like even on front armor. They can't split their fire like long fangs, but they're so inexpensive that you can take multiple squads for less than the oblits would cost while still remaining versatile and able to kill heavy infantry, light infantry, transports, and armor up to av13.

Lash doesn't work against armor. this is painfully obvious to anyone taking a lash list in a tournament. Hell, it doesnt usually work against armies with psychic defense either(and also is a bit of a waste against horde armies). So change your strategy and stop taking wasted points. DPs with wings, warptime ,and winds of chaos (maybe even MoT to use both in the same turn, but that puts even more points into a single MC model) are devastating without relying on moving an enemy squad. WoC basically kills half of what is underneath that flamer template in most cases and the warptime + DP cc rampage usually wipes out a good chunk of the remaining models.

I am sick of two things more than any other with csm players/armies:

1) People that take 2x DP lash / full oblit squad lists.

2) People that cry when that no longer works and they can't find any other way to win.

We need a new codex pretty badly, but lash and oblits are not the only way to win.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1431947.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1431947.page GMT 1850 All-Comers Comp CSM

Halsfield wrote:
I have serious problems with both of those links and the strategies they provide. They are bemoaning things like oblits not being able to pop transports and lash not working against vehicles/armor. So what? When something stops working you change your tactics. Oblits are terribly overcosted for popping transports. For a squad of 3 you get 3 shots for 225 points. Thats stupid for killing transports. Get something like a squad of havocs with autocannons if you want long range transport popping. They are 155pts for 8, count them: 8, str 7 48" shots that destroy rhinos and the like even on front armor. They can't split their fire like long fangs, but they're so inexpensive that you can take multiple squads for less than the oblits would cost while still remaining versatile and able to kill heavy infantry, light infantry, transports, and armor up to av13.

And so Havocs will reliably wipe Terminator squads these days, huh? Or provide the kind of DS defense that Oblits can (TL flamers and TL plasma)?

Lash doesn't work against armor. this is painfully obvious to anyone taking a lash list in a tournament. Hell, it doesnt usually work against armies with psychic defense either(and also is a bit of a waste against horde armies). So change your strategy and stop taking wasted points. DPs with wings, warptime ,and winds of chaos (maybe even MoT to use both in the same turn, but that puts even more points into a single MC model) are devastating without relying on moving an enemy squad. WoC basically kills half of what is underneath that flamer template in most cases and the warptime + DP cc rampage usually wipes out a good chunk of the remaining models.

1st off, how is your 2 power DP going to work against psy defense? It's even more reliant on powers than the Lasher is.
2ndly, wasted points? A 205 point prince is not exactly efficient.
3rd, think through your tactics before you post them. WT + WoC gives you 75% casualties.

We need a new codex pretty badly, but lash and oblits are not the only way to win.

What GTs have you won? And how many have Lash + Oblits won? Lash + Oblits is the only way to win tourneys with CSM.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1432185.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1432185.page GMT 1850 All-Comers Comp CSM

Iron_Chaos_Brute wrote:What GTs have you won? And how many have Lash + Oblits won? Lash + Oblits is the only way to win tourneys with CSM.

Now that's weapons-grade right there...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1432193.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1432193.page GMT 1850 All-Comers Comp CSM
The point in taking 2 diferent DPs is that one of the psychic powers will most likely get off each turn, so either way you get a boost from Lash or WT. Lash + Oblit aren't the only way to win tournys. Just because its the only way its been done before doesn't mean its THE only way. I wish some people besides me would have the balls to realize this, or at least stand up for it.

I appreciate the debate guys, but as far as my last post is concerned what about those Chosen? Are Zerkers a better option instead, or does the outflank ability of the Chosen out weight that? idk but would like some help with the decision.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1432838.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1432838.page GMT 1850 All-Comers Comp CSM

Billie_Joe wrote:@Halsfield: THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You're welcome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! hehe

Billie_Joe wrote:
Lash + Oblit aren't the only way to win tournys. I wish some people besides me would have the balls to realize this, or at least stand up for it.

Completely agreed, although I'd replace "balls" with "brains" and "tournys" with "any game". Way too many people starting chaos go right for the lash princes and the oblits and have no idea what to do when that stops working.

Billie_Joe wrote:
I appreciate the debate guys, but as far as my last post is concerned what about those Chosen? Are Zerkers a better option instead, or does the outflank ability of the Chosen out weight that? idk but would like some help with the decision.

Sorry, we really should stay more on topic and not debate as much, but iron chaos brute seems to think I insulted his mother or something equal when I said I had reservations about his advice.

Chosen - I love the idea, but I think they fall short, especially on Dawn of War missions like has been said before. They are still a great way to take a huge amount of fast moving/infiltrating/outflanking special weapons if you have used up your HS slots or something. The extra 3pts per model over regular csms isnt a huge deal, but it does make it tempting to simply take more troops over chosen.

Berzerkers - Great units. Most people that don't care about fluff are using 1-2 plague marine squads + 1-2 berzerker squads. The PMs tie the enemy up/take charges and the berzerkers clean up.

Iron_Chaos_Brute wrote:
And so Havocs will reliably wipe Terminator squads these days, huh? Or provide the kind of DS defense that Oblits can (TL flamers and TL plasma)?

3 lascannons/PCs/TL-flamers are reliably wiping out terminator squads? How big are these squads, 3 terms? Against 3 I think the AC havocs have just as easy a time cleaning house and for 70 less points. I don't think either oblits or havocs are completely wiping out a 6man+ squad (especially TH/SS)in any fashion that could be considered reliable.

You are ignoring the value of volumes of low cost yet high strength fire, and that is exactly what the havocs bring to the table. The oblits may be firing the proper weapon to do the job in every situation, but they are only getting 1 shot to do the job for 75pts. Plasma cannons/TL-flamers can certainly bring you multiple hits but have some pretty large problems to overcome(PC: smart coherency, scatter, gets hot. TLF: coherency,needing to be up close). Autocannons get the same amount of shots every time.

Are oblits useless? No, absolutely not, but taking 3 squads of them in every tournament and in every game is asking for trouble. I usually take 1 squad of 2-3 oblits and 2 squads of 5 havocs /w autocannons. The combination gives me the volume of fire to devastate any squad/light vehicle(with 8 chances to hurt anything up to av13) and the oblits ensure I'm able to hurt anything the other player can bring to the table(land raiders,etc) with the proper weapon for the job.

DSing oblits? Yea, what a great way to get your 225pts slaughtered. 3 DSing TL flamers? So impressive for 225pts.

Iron_Chaos_Brute wrote:
1st off, how is your 2 power DP going to work against psy defense? It's even more reliant on powers than the Lasher is.
2ndly, wasted points? A 205 point prince is not exactly efficient.
3rd, think through your tactics before you post them. WT + WoC gives you 75% casualties.

1)The point I was making with the alternate powers was that if lash is failing to be effective because your opponent is using armor/hordes/whatever, then take different powers(like warptime and winds of chaos that have a wider range of uses). Obviously if your problem is psychic defense you shouldn't be taking more psychic powers.

2)I was not calling a lash prince inefficient. I was calling it wasted points. Read the words I write please. A lash prince that is not able to do the intended job(because of anything besides psychic defense, ie armor/hordes/etc) is a waste of points, plain and simple. If a lash prince is wasted points then taking another type of prince/hq is the obvious thing to do. As with #1, if it is wasted points because of psychic defense then take another HQ option or take a prince with just wings or wings/warptime(cheap and not going to ruin you if you fail it).

3)??? Did you read at all before blowing up and replying? "WoC kills half of what is underneath the template in most cases" What part of that is incorrect? "DP cc rampage(with WT) usually wipes out a good chunk of the remaining models" 75% casualties = a good chunk of what is left to me.

Iron_chaos_brute wrote:
What GTs have you won? And how many have Lash + Oblits won?

Winning GTs is the only way to know that taking lash princes + oblits when they're failing to be effective is ridiculous? I had no idea, thanks for clearing that up.

Iron_chaos_brute wrote:Lash + Oblits is the only way to win tourneys with CSM.

This just doesn't make any sense. Your own links are explaining how lash + oblits are losing to very popular lists that contain heavy armor/psychic defense/horde/gunline/etc. When something isnt working anymore you don't keep playing it and then complaining when it doesn't work. Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results is the definition of insanity isn't it?

The meta is constantly changing and taking the same list over and over in such an environment is bound to fail. Lash DPs are not the only valuable DP(much less our only valuable HQ), and oblits are not our only worthwhile HS. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1432892.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1432892.page GMT 1850 All-Comers Comp CSM

Iron_Chaos_Brute wrote:
What GTs have you won? And how many have Lash + Oblits won? Lash + Oblits is the only way to win tourneys with CSM.

Just out of curiosity, when did the Lash + Oblit list win GT? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1433326.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1433326.page GMT 1850 All-Comers Comp CSM

Way too many people starting chaos go right for the lash princes and the oblits and have no idea what to do when that stops working.

Great minds think alike

Winning GTs is the only way to know that taking lash princes + oblits when they're failing to be effective is ridiculous? I had no idea, thanks for clearing that up.

I suggest an emocon to liven things up

.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1433334.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1433334.page GMT 1850 All-Comers Comp CSM

Halsfield wrote:I was not calling a lash prince inefficient. I was calling it wasted points. Read the words I write please.

what?! read the words you write please. just play a vassal game to settle it; hell i'll take you on 1,750 competitive and we'll see.

http://www.miniwargaming.com/content/oXa5UrAGpfJG]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1433554.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1433554.page GMT 1850 All-Comers Comp CSM
Second, playing a game of Vassel won't solve anything, only real games do that. Wheres the physical element? The real life playful banter? Misc small children to distract you?

Anyways...as far as the list is concerned I think Termicide might do some good in this list. And they don't always have to be used as strictly Termicide. Depending on how you equip them they can add reinforcements to your CSM squad, as they are the only ones with an icon. As you kinda have a three pronged attack pattern it seems, the termies could help out where ever they come in.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1437036.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1437036.page GMT 1850 All-Comers Comp CSM

BullDurum wrote:playing a game of Vassel won't solve anything, only real games do that. Wheres the physical element? The real life playful banter? Misc small children to distract you?

so you're saying the only usable basis by which to judge (in your language 'solve') a 40K game is by models with a 3rd dimension, the playful banter (which must be spoken face to face, rather than skype'd or typed, according to you), and having small children, the actual function of whom is nebulous in your statement.

personally, i'd disagree by stating that 40k should be 'solved' by models which take up space on a board, dice rolls, and tactics. but that's just me]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1437061.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1437061.page GMT 1850 All-Comers Comp CSM LOS?

I guess i'm just of the opinion that eviornment has alot to do with how a game turns out.

As far as stating that one list is better than another, there is really no way of proving that, since there are so many variables.

Why don't you post something that might help the OP for a change.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1437103.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1437103.page GMT 1850 All-Comers Comp CSM

BullDurum wrote:Why don't you post something that might help the OP for a change.

Dealing with these kind of comments is the change for me. if you had bothered to look at the second post, you would see a perfectly competitive list. I'm done here. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1437141.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1437141.page GMT 1850 All-Comers Comp CSM
Times change, sh** Chaos IS change, and thus everything must change with it, or be left behind, just like your list.

And you never answered my question, how do you get True LOS in Vassal?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1437153.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1437153.page GMT 1850 All-Comers Comp CSM CSM. There's a reason that and not other builds are at top tables.

And LoS in Vassal: you discuss what terrain is what before the game. There is a LoS tool as well.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1437163.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1437163.page GMT 1850 All-Comers Comp CSM 40K are different. There is no denying it. Vassal allows you to test the waters pretty accurately, but it does not do 3 dimensions.
_____________

That aside.

I think people are reacting to Gorgon_Locke's posts a bit more critically because it is written in a sort of way that sounds like it's the only way to play Chaos/high headed...

/shrug. Either way, that's one way of approaching a competitive list, but not the only way.

CSM troopers are perfectly competitive, so is a list with no obliterators.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1437175.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1437175.page GMT 1850 All-Comers Comp CSM

gorgon_locke wrote:

what?! read the words you write please.

Did you read my post at all or just read iron chaos brute's reply? No where in there did I say that unit was "inefficient". That is why I asked him, and I ask you, to actually read the words I write and not skim or put words in my mouth.

Saying something is "wasted points" is different from saying something is inefficient. An inefficient unit would be one that does something effectively but does it for too many points and could be replaced by another unit(s) for less points while still achieving the same result. A wasted point unit would be one that is just that, a waste of points and completely ineffective at the intended job(ie lash against an armored list).

Iron_Chaos_Brute wrote:The list is still the best build out of CSM. There's a reason that and not other builds are at top tables.

And LoS in Vassal: you discuss what terrain is what before the game. There is a LoS tool as well.

I don't think winning a GT or beating me in a vassal game is going to disprove that when something is not working you stop taking that something. Your own words say that lash and oblits aren't working so...

YTTH has another list idea at least that doesnt rely upon lash princes or oblits(but still says chaos is a non-competitive choice until a new codex is released): http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2010/03/chaos-space-marines-ard-boyz-under.html . He also explains as I did why taking lash princes + oblits is often a waste of points: "I don't think much of Lash at 2k, at 2500...I think even less of it. Obliterators don't survive in environments where 3 terminator squads can aim right at them, or IG...or...well, anything since SM just beats their face in. Of course, so do Eldar and DE. Wait, I think we figured out...Chaos is both bad AND boring."]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1437222.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1437222.page GMT 1850 All-Comers Comp CSM CSM. It's a one-build book. I disagree with Stelek about prince type selection (he generally likes MoN, Wings, WT), but otherwise I agree with him here.

Particularly this part: "There really isn't anything better to run. Don't get me wrong, I love my Oblits. They also tend to get shot to pieces by any competent player, because Chaos doesn't get reliable Dreads, good Terminators, or Fast Attack choices that aren't ass bad. Once those die, your mobile transports are safe...because all Chaos can do is drive up, sacrifice a meltagun plague marine squad to kill your rhino, and then you kill those fat feths and call it a day."

EDIT-We aren't talking about 2500, btw. We're talking about 1850

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1437290.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1437290.page GMT 1850 All-Comers Comp CSM lol. But its still not terrible.. Here ya go:

Choas Lord 100
Combimelta

5 Chosen x2 310
2 Meltas
2 Flamers
Rhino

5 Plaguemarines x6 1020
2 Meltas
Rhino

5 Havocs x3 420
2 Meltas
2 Flamers

1850

What do you think?
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1437354.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1437354.page GMT 1850 All-Comers Comp CSM CSM squad and the Chosen squad.

I think that the 5 flamer squad and the full sonic blaster squad is too much overkill when it comes to anti-infantry.

The noise marines should probably just be a delivery system for their champion and his doom siren, or a static high RoF squad ... not both.

I also think that one of the Aspiring Champions from the troop section would be better off in the Chosen squad. I assume at least one of those troop squads is going to hang back and camp on an objective in a lot of games, but an outflanking/infiltrating squad with 5 flamers is going to be up front every game.

A havoc launcher for that predator would expand its capability to make it more of a threat against hordes, although that's not a huge priority given the other anti-infantry options in the list. It may even be a mistake to take a fairly specific use vehicle and try to make it more versatile at a higher points cost.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1437447.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1437447.page GMT 1850 All-Comers Comp CSM

Iron_Chaos_Brute wrote:I agree that Lash and Oblits aren't working. However, they are the only build in CSM. It's a one-build book.

Saying this after a very successful list builder(stelek) builds a list without either lash princes or oblits? Even if I'm just some ignorant peon to you he should have earned some of your respect. You say you know that lash princes are bad and very situational but you also say it is the only list possible to win with? That still doesn't work for me and repeating "Lash + oblits are the only build for CSM" isn't exactly proving the point.

Iron_Chaos_Brute wrote:I disagree with Stelek about prince type selection (he generally likes MoN, Wings, WT), but otherwise I agree with him here.

You, me, stelek, and many other people agree that lash is useful in a small percent of competitive games. Why not take stelek's preferred prince? It certainly wouldn't be as game changing as lash can be, but he wouldn't have 25 wasted points(50 if you take a pair). Are you just eating the 50pts on most games so when it is useful (ie walking lists or mixed lists) that you will have a higher chance of a win? Why not skip the whole thing and simply take a token HQ as stelek did in his list? It allows you to put your points elsewhere where they will be more useful (and not be so easily shot to pieces before ever getting into range).

I really don't think the point level matters in this particular argument. Stelek also agrees that we are just about the same army at 1500 as we are at 2500(and that is the one main reason we are terrible at ard boyz and other high point tournies). Even if we went down to 1500 people are taking enough highly mobile, armored, long range shooting, and psyker defending lists that it makes a lash prince very unreliable(again, just as I've said and backed up by your own link and stelek's).

The lower in points you go the more those oblits are hurting you as well. At 1000 points each oblit lost (and every shot lost by not taking havocs or another option with volume of fire) is a major 75pt loss(almost 1/10th of your army at that level). The ac havoc squads are better at penetrating rhinos at long range, better at taking out infantry in cover(at range), do not have weapons that can wound the shooter, will not scatter off-target, and as long as they are within range will always give the maximum amount of shots(ie don't rely on placing blast+flamer templates). I would say they are slightly less durable, but I feel both will be taken out quite quickly if engaged by heavy weaponry (plasma/las/ordnance/etc) or DSing assault teams and the like.

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jshbchnn wrote:
I think that if was going to try to improve the original poster's list, I'd start off with suggesting he swap out the IoS for Icons of Chaos Glory on the vanilla CSM squad and the Chosen squad.

Agreed, but I think he's trying to keep some fluff to this list(noise marines, lash prince, IoS marines...etc). Kinda makes this intense tournament tactics discussion a bit silly, but neither side seems ready to concede.

jshbchnn wrote:The noise marines should probably just be a delivery system for their champion and his doom siren, or a static high RoF squad ... not both.

I think for 5pts a model the assault ability gained(which works well with the assaulty doom siren template) isn't too high a cost for making them that much more dangerous/flexible close-up. If he can't spare the points atm he should take them from elsewhere imo. An entire squad simply to deliver a single MEQ killing heavy flamer template is a major waste of cult troops and points to me. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1437913.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1437913.page GMT 1850 All-Comers Comp CSM CSM have at 2500 vs. what they have at 1850.

It's what the competition has.

My guard list between 1850 and 2500 adds:
A Manticore
A Vendetta, HBs
A CCS, Meltas
A Chimera
3 Autocannon HWTs

This is a major increase in damage-dealing potential to the few more Oblits and Rhinos I'd have at 2500.

CSM can't match the climb to the points.

As points increase, army power grows exponentially because of unit interaction, target saturation, slot filling capability, etc. CSM has a lower exponential growth rate, so as points levels get higher the gap gets bigger. This is why point level matters.

In 1500, 6-9 Oblits are enough anti-tank. Look at the UK GT results. 1st place: 2x Lash, 6 Oblit, Raider. 2nd Place: 1x Lash, 9 Oblit. 6th place: 2xLash, 9 Oblit.
_________________

The wasted point argument is a really bad strawman. I can just as easily say that DPs will always get shot down before they hit stuff. In which case DPs are useless.
_________________

And before you start thinking that the post I quoted backs you up, re-read this line from my earlier post:

"There really isn't anything better to run. Don't get me wrong, I love my Oblits. They also tend to get shot to pieces by any competent player, because Chaos doesn't get reliable Dreads, good Terminators, or Fast Attack choices that aren't ass bad. Once those die, your mobile transports are safe...because all Chaos can do is drive up, sacrifice a meltagun plague marine squad to kill your rhino, and then you kill those fat feths and call it a day."

If you want context, look at the article.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1438015.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1438015.page GMT 1850 All-Comers Comp CSM
Here's an alternate list:

HQ
Chaos Sorcerer
w/Mark of Nurgle, Melta Bombs, Nurgle's Rot, Familiar, Warptime

Elites
Chaos Terminators
5 Chaos Terminators
w/Icon of Tzeentch, Combi-Weapons (x5), Chainfist
Land Raider
w/Daemonic Possession, Combi-Melta

Chaos Terminators
5 Chaos Terminators
w/Icon of Tzeentch, Combi-Weapons (x5), Chainfist
Land Raider
w/Daemonic Possession, Combi-Melta

Troops
Chaos Space Marines
1 Aspiring Champion
w/Power Fist, Combi-Melta
8 Chaos Space Marines
w/Icon of Chaos Glory, Flamer

Chaos Space Marines
1 Aspiring Champion
w/Power Fist, Combi-Melta
9 Chaos Space Marines
w/Icon of Chaos Glory, Flamers (x2)

Chaos Space Marines
1 Aspiring Champion
w/Power Fist, Combi-Melta
9 Chaos Space Marines
w/Icon of Chaos Glory, Flamers (x2)

Heavy Support
Land Raider
w/Daemonic Possession, Combi-Melta

Land Raider
w/Daemonic Possession, Combi-Melta

Land Raider
w/Daemonic Possession

So rather than Obliterators and Rhinos, take Land Raiders. Five Land Raiders have ten Twin-Linked Lascannons. Twin-Linked Lascannons at BS3 at more accurate than normal Lascannons at BS4, of which you'd have nine on all the Obliterators you could bring. The Sorcerer of Nurgle can sit in his Land Raider with one squad of Chaos Space Marines, all of which are equipped to mop up dismounted infantry, himself wielding either Nurgle's Rot in his own turn, or Warptime in the opponent's combat phase, and he can cast Nurgle's Rot in combat to hurl buckets of automatic hits at the enemy. In fact, the effectiveness of Nurgle's Rot increases as the density on the board goes up. The Land Raiders themselves are immune to Autocannons, and are a touch nut for Lascannons to crack.

But what about Meltas? Well, obviously someone is going to get cracked, but Daemonic Possession should prevent loss of firepower to Stunned/Shaken, and Chaos Land Raiders should sit and shoot the first few turns of the game anyways. Put the Terminators in reserve and have them teleport in, quite apart from their Land Raiders, and you can make quite a mess. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1438293.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1438293.page GMT 1850 All-Comers Comp CSM
Now are there things I would do differently in that list? Yeah, but it's not a radical redesign.

That's the kind of list that someone who "gets" how different 2500 is from "regular" 40K makes. Now this may be because Nurglitch habitually sits outside the box but it works in this case

The thing is that even this kind of list has a hard time with Guard, new BA lists, SW, and, hell, even Orks. Deff Rollas, anyone?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1438363.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1438363.page GMT 1850 All-Comers Comp CSM

My Competitive 1850 is as follows:

Dp, wings.
DP, wings.
10 Plague Marines, 2 Meltas, Fist, Rhino.
10 Plague Marines, 2 Meltas, Fist, Rhino.
10 Plague Marines, 2 Flamers, Fist, Rhino.
3 Oblits.
3 Oblits.
175 points left for whatever I feel like at the time.

There is no doubt that the plague marines are not an optimal size, but works just as those normal DP/Cult/Oblit lists will work. It's more of an objective based list than offensive I admit.

My exp. vs. Guard and Orks are good.
Though I've had little exp with new SW with Chaos and no exp. w/ BA cause we wait for the real deal to be in our hands.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1439000.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1439000.page GMT 1850 All-Comers Comp CSM
@ BullDuram: Hey thanks for the first post on me!!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1440836.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1440836.page GMT 1850 All-Comers Comp CSM
I think the points you spent/spend on chosen could be best used elsewhere in your list. Idk on what atm but I'll mathhammer it and figure it out.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1442709.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/285079/1442709.page GMT