Latest posts for the thread "BA Death Company - Thoughts? (For those with the new Codex)"

BA Death Company - Thoughts? (For those with the new Codex)

Neith — GMT

After seeing an article on BoLS, I wanted to get Dakka's take on this. As a lot of you know, Death Company are no longer an Elites choice for Blood Angels, but a Troops choice instead. My question is do you think a Blood Angels army list can feasibly include Death Company without totally dedicating to them with an Astorath list? Also, how would you run the DC? In a Transport, or with Jump Packs? Would you add a Chaplain, a Reclusiarch or Lemartes? I'm interested in hearing what people have to say on the DC now.

For me, I see the pros as:
+ Potentially very dangerous assault unit, as any DC can upgrade to Power Weapons/Fists, Thunder Hammers and so on.
+ Armed with Bolters you could even have a decent firing line, as DC are Relentless.
+ In very large games you can run upto 30 in a squad, which is ridiculously hard to deal with, as each member has FNP. However, on the flipside, to run 30 you'd probably need an almost Apoc-sized battle.
+ Every 5 DC grants you a DC Dreadnought as a Troops choice, which is extremely nice.
+ Adding a Chaplain, a Relusiarch or Lemartes allows the DC to re-reroll any failed hits and wounds, which is amazing.

However, I'm not sure they're worth using because:
- They're fairly expensive units (4-5 more than a normal Tactical Marine, and that's before any upgrades).
- Thunder Hammers cost almost 2 Tactical Marines.
- Jump Packs are around 75% the cost of the DC Marine to begin with, making them an extremely expensive unit to run with any squad size.
- Black Rage is a HUGE downer. Not only does this give them the Rage USR (making them very difficult to control), Chaplains no longer negate this.
- Again from the Black Rage, this makes them a non-scoring unit.

I have 5 DC with Jump Packs from the old Codex, but I'm honestly considering ripping the Jump Packs off, giving them a Rhino to get around Rage a little and cutting points down.

How are people running DC with the new Codex? I apologise if it's too early ('Dex isn't officially out yet, I received mine early this week and have been stumped about the DC since).

Re:BA Death Company - Thoughts? (For those with the new Codex)

Razerous — GMT

Chaplins make them even more expensive. If your having re-rolls, you might aswell include heavy hitting powerfists. This means the squad is too expensive to be fielded with a rhino. This leaves jump packs (too expensive), a drop pod or land raider.

My point is; having the ability to have re-roll to-hit (anything) and re-roll to-wound, With multiple powerfists.. combined with MEQ FNP.. means they can essentially take out most units in the game, on a charge. But its expensive and you may be able to have better, more flexible results with a more mixed selection.

Re:BA Death Company - Thoughts? (For those with the new Codex)

dumplingman — GMT

I'm also having trouble figuring out how to us DC effectively in the new dex. jump packs are just too expensive. Rhinos mitigate rage, but another option I have been pondering is using them in a drop pod. In a heavy pod list, droping them on the first turn forces you opponent to deal with them. Especially if you use them in conjunction with dreads. And since they have FNP they can probably divert heavy fire or absorb light fire. I don't know I have haven't really tested this yet. On another note I could see a pure death company army beign awesome in apoc. It would also be really cool looking.

BA Death Company - Thoughts? (For those with the new Codex)

the_ferrett — GMT

Small squads of 5 with jumppacks tend to clean up rediculously well (unfortunately for I). Then again he was running a save heavy list.

BA Death Company - Thoughts? (For those with the new Codex)

Kirasu — GMT

DC with jump packs are virtually the same price and hitting power on the charge as they were in the previous book.. Only difference is there are OTHER options for hard hitting units now which make them not as great

Now, without JP they are very powerful at 20 pts each.. The issue is dealing with the rage

Re:BA Death Company - Thoughts? (For those with the new Codex)

Arschbombe — GMT

I've lost interest in the DC now. Jumping DC were a staple of my old pdf lists. Now, the only reason I'd take them anymore is to get a DC dread. So that means I need to take 5 DC. The cheapest way then is 5 DC in a pod for 135 points. Drop them somewhere and let the enemy deal with them while I concentrate on the units I can control.

The next cheapest option is to run them in a rhino. This offers the ability to put them in position, wait until the next turn to disembark as desired and get into assault with something.

The best way to get them to do what you want is with a land raider of some type. This allows you to deliver them to the target without problem, but it becomes a huge point sink and the biggest target in your army. I'm not sure it's worth it.

On the crazy fringe I've thought about running a 100% DC army just for giggles.

Astorath
10 DC, JP 3 PF, 5 PW, 2 IP
20 DC, 3 PF 5 PW 2 IP
19 DC, 3 PF, 4 PW, 2 IP

BA Death Company - Thoughts? (For those with the new Codex)

Khornatedemon — GMT

If you can work around their rage they can be a very powerful unit. I feel the only way to really run them is in a raider with a chappy. It makes the unit expensive but not really more than any other dedicated cc unit + HQ. A squad of 10 with 3 power weapons and a chappy will put a hurting on even th'ss terminators with sheer weight of wounds.

Re:BA Death Company - Thoughts? (For those with the new Codex)

The Strange Dude — GMT

Sanguinary priest attached to assault squads give all the benefits of DC (bar loads of Weapon Upgrades) without the rage and are scoring.

Re:BA Death Company - Thoughts? (For those with the new Codex)

Mahu — GMT

Here are my current plans for BA Death Company:

Reclusiarch = 130
8 Death Company w/ Thunderhammer, 2 Power Weapons, Infernus Pistol = 230
Death Company Dreadnought w/ Blood Talons = 125
Storm Raven w/ TL Lascannon, TL Multimelta, Extra Armor = 215

Total combo = 700 points.

If you go first, alpha strike the Death Company Dreadnought anywhere there are troops on the table. Or even a Chimara or two, against a Chimara wall, the goal would be to kill two tanks with the Storm Raven, and assault the guys inside with the DC Crazy.

If you go second, reserve that puppy and turbo boast on as soon as it is available.

BA Death Company - Thoughts? (For those with the new Codex)

Neith — GMT

Good to see I'm not the only one who thinks the DC Jump Packs are expensive.

I only have 5 DC models currently, with Jump Packs and Bolt Pistol/CCW (they're from the old 'Dex where no Power Weapons were allowed), and to run just those is 175 points. If I was to remodel them with Power Weapons, the cost skyrockets. And thats only for 5 DC.

Aside from Rhino or Drop Pod I just can't see much use for them anymore, aside from very large point games.

BA Death Company - Thoughts? (For those with the new Codex)

Khornatedemon — GMT

Neith wrote:
Aside from Rhino or Drop Pod I just can't see much use for them anymore, aside from very large point games.

i think they can serve as a decent hammer unit in a land raider if used correctly. Against certain units like large mobs of orks they will do more damage than terminators.

BA Death Company - Thoughts? (For those with the new Codex)

rdlb — GMT

I'm actually looking forward to using the DC with Jump Packs in a list with many other assault squads. I think it would have the same impact that dumpling man was describing in a drop pod list, they will soak up and attract tons of fire leaving everyone else relatively unmolested.

Rage is an issue but with their speed and increased anti-tank capability I don't think its as big an issue as it used to be.

Also, the ability to take a DC Dread is nothing to sneeze at. A dread with fleet, furious charge, and 'None can stay my Wrath' is very frightening. Again rage is an issue, but you can force you opponent to feed units to the units with rage, and that makes them a little more predictable

But I haven't tried them yet, still assembling and painting new models.

BA Death Company - Thoughts? (For those with the new Codex)

Khornatedemon — GMT

people always say they can lead units with rage around like the BA player isnt going to have any other units in his army. Is that landspeeder you claim your going to lead my dc around with going to survive the missiles and lascannons in the rest of my army? prolly not.

Rage can be worked around. Whether or not DC are better than assault termies remains to be seen in my book, and is the big issue i'm having with DC. Unless of course you plan on taking 2 heavy hitter units in which case both wouldnt hurt.

BA Death Company - Thoughts? (For those with the new Codex)

Razerous — GMT

Khornatedemon wrote:people always say they can lead units with rage around like the BA player isnt going to have any other units in his army. Is that landspeeder you claim your going to lead my dc around with going to survive the missiles and lascannons in the rest of my army? prolly not.

Rage can be worked around. Whether or not DC are better than assault termies remains to be seen in my book, and is the big issue i'm having with DC. Unless of course you plan on taking 2 heavy hitter units in which case both wouldnt hurt.

Not scoring. Rage requires effort and begets mistakes. Expensive. Slot filling. Requires support or better substituted by other units.

BA Death Company - Thoughts? (For those with the new Codex)

Gridge — GMT

I'm on the fence myself about DC. If not for the DC dreads I would say they weren't worth it compared to other units. However, since the dreads are a factor they become much more worthwhile. Rage is something I haven't dealt with in my army before but I believe it can be worked around.

BA Death Company - Thoughts? (For those with the new Codex)

Khornatedemon — GMT

Razerous wrote:
Khornatedemon wrote:people always say they can lead units with rage around like the BA player isnt going to have any other units in his army. Is that landspeeder you claim your going to lead my dc around with going to survive the missiles and lascannons in the rest of my army? prolly not.

Rage can be worked around. Whether or not DC are better than assault termies remains to be seen in my book, and is the big issue i'm having with DC. Unless of course you plan on taking 2 heavy hitter units in which case both wouldnt hurt.
Not scoring. Rage requires effort and begets mistakes. Expensive. Slot filling. Requires support or better substituted by other units.

oh noes! effort in using a unit! assault terminators dont score and are expensive as well and take up an elite slot that is probably more valuable than a troop slot in the BA list. Should I not run them too? The only direct support DC probably need are a chappy for the re-rolls. Otherwise they are no different from any high cost CC unit with the exception of that you have to play smart with them and cant just throw them into whatever like TH/SS terminators.

I think people are writing them off because they want easy mode and dont want to deal with having to think and use a unit with a draw back.

BA Death Company - Thoughts? (For those with the new Codex)

Razerous — GMT

Khornatedemon wrote:
Razerous wrote:
Khornatedemon wrote:people always say they can lead units with rage around like the BA player isnt going to have any other units in his army. Is that landspeeder you claim your going to lead my dc around with going to survive the missiles and lascannons in the rest of my army? prolly not.

Rage can be worked around. Whether or not DC are better than assault termies remains to be seen in my book, and is the big issue i'm having with DC. Unless of course you plan on taking 2 heavy hitter units in which case both wouldnt hurt.
Not scoring. Rage requires effort and begets mistakes. Expensive. Slot filling. Requires support or better substituted by other units.

oh noes! effort in using a unit! assault terminators dont score and are expensive as well and take up an elite slot that is probably more valuable than a troop slot in the BA list. Should I not run them too? The only direct support DC probably need are a chappy for the re-rolls. Otherwise they are no different from any high cost CC unit with the exception of that you have to play smart with them and cant just throw them into whatever like TH/SS terminators.

I think people are writing them off because they want easy mode and dont want to deal with having to think and use a unit with a draw back.

In Codex: SM they are 40pt 2+/3++ with thunder hamers. Thats worth 40pts.

Rage, only slightly surviveable, non-scoring, 20-30pts/model.. more with a Chaplin which seems mandatory. So now we are talking terminator costs and terminators fill thier own roll better and I think, for the cost, you can field the supposed role of DC with other units, more efficiently.

I think unless you build an army around DC (Perfectly fine and could work well) there are better options. There may be "I-win" buttons but DC used badly are "I-loose" buttons too. They have more restrictions than just lack of easy mobility and cost.

BA Death Company - Thoughts? (For those with the new Codex)

Khornatedemon — GMT

but we're not talking C:SM are we. in C:BA TH terminators are 45 points each and if you want the benefit of FNP or re-rolls to hit have to be baby sat by a SP or a libby/chaplain thus increasing their cost.

If you want to compare them to terminators (as you might have to since nothing else in the book compares to DC or termies in points to damage ratio) the non-scoring issues is moot as neither can and unless you pulling the razorback spam list I doubt your going to be hurting for all 6 troop choices in a normal game. Plus being troops allows you to start them and their LRC on the board in DoW if you wanted.

What are the other options do you think are there? Sanguinary guard are junk and vanguard will cost you an arm and a leg to kit out. While I am a fan of terminators i think DC have their place as well, especially for someone who want a challenge and not point and click terminators.

BA Death Company - Thoughts? (For those with the new Codex)

FoxPhoenix135 — GMT

I'm just bummed about the loss of rending. I loved my rending DC... they really made it worth it.

BA Death Company - Thoughts? (For those with the new Codex)

Kirasu — GMT

Vs average units such as space marines theyre actually BETTER now with a chaplain than before.. As I said the problem is not so much that theyre expensive (they were 35 pts with Jps before remember) its that there are ACTUAL options now

10 DC with no upgrades + lemartes is basically same cost as before

With 40 attacks they do *30* wounds to WS4 T4 troops! and lemartes does 3 wounds for a total of 13 wounds vs space marines or basically an entire mob of boyz

Before you did 15 + 5 rending so basically also 10 wounds vs space marines but the worse armor save the unit had the less effective rending really was.. Yeah you cant damage vehicles very well, but they really do the same damage vs most targets

BA Death Company - Thoughts? (For those with the new Codex)

Happygrunt — GMT

I havnt picked up the codex yet, but I plan to have 5 DC in a drop pod with a cc inquisitor (The elite slot WH one). DC will have CC weapons and bolt/melta pistols (think thats the other option), drop them in with Mr.I in the enemy deployment, and let them kill their points. My fast vindicator will wipe up the mess. Overall, never really ran a dedicated CC unit before, but I like the look of the DC.

BA Death Company - Thoughts? (For those with the new Codex)

OverchargeThis! — GMT

I"m having a hard time getting around the increase in cost and decrease in ability. Did notice a few things that make them nice.

FIrst is WS5. Against most targets this is almost like having a chaplain, as against WS4 or less you hit in 3's. So it's 33 percent more hits rather than 50 percent more hits on the charge. and this is every turn.

Second, with a chaplain you re-roll to-hit and to-wound.

9 guys in a rhino, with a basic elite chaplain costs (IIRC) 330. I'd add a T-Hammer and 2 PW's on top of this. Makes the squd 390, but once it rolls into your opponent's line you hit about twice as hard as the DC of the last codex. To get the greatest benefit, just seems like chaplain is required in the unit, but best kept cheap.

I think it's viable personally, but it competes for points with lots of other things like vanguard.

Re:BA Death Company - Thoughts? (For those with the new Codex)

iMagUdspEllr — GMT

I am having a hard time with it too. I'm just going to type stream-of-consciousness so that maybe my train of thought might turn on some lightbulbs for you. I figure that TH/SS terminators are the toughest and hardest hitting units in the game. They do not perform so well against huge mobs of guys. They do not perform as well when your enemy can take you out long before I 1 rolls around (some of the 'nids monstrous creatures come to mind). And, termies can be whittled down over time because they are always attacking last and you can't consolidate from combat to combat. So, yeah they hit a lot harder and they have that amazing 3+ inv sv. But how many squads will they tear through before they are simply dragged down? Now I know you can just include a sanguinary priest to give them feel no pain to make one of the most survivable units twice as survivable. But, you can still be dragged down because they are always hitting last.

So, it seems the only thing the death company can do that the termies can't do as well is put out more attacks at initiative, with re-rolls to hit, re-rolls to wound, and a higher WS means that they just might do more damage that termies do. With only a minor hit in survivability. Assault Termies can eat more power weapons/ap 2 but that would mean that they are probably already dead (massed fire will take out any squad with so few models) or they are going up against the enemies best CC units... not necessarily the best thing to do with your assault units. You should generally be shooting what is good at assault and assaulting what is good at shooting.

So, if the death company (or whatever assault unit you deem is best) is focusing on proper targets then the death company has the higher chance of wipe outs and still number enough models to make it from combat to combat. Also if this squad is equipped with jump packs then you have to realize that these guys put out more damage (against infantry) and are much more maneuverable than terminators after the terminator's initial assault from a land raider (that you don't necessarily have to buy with a DC squad... and use those points for a death company dreadnought which will wipe out squads by itself).

Also, because with a chaplain you r-roll hits+wounds you basically have a super lightning claw squad if you give them all power weapons. With jump packs on the charge that is WS 5 Str 5 I 5 re-roll hits and wounds AND ignore armor saves (overkill much?). So, honestly I don't think you have to give more than 2-5 guys in your squad special weapons at all. You only need massed power weapons/fists/hammers vs monstrous creatures and vehicles... which can be dealt with more efficiently with other units in the codex (Furioso librarian with force weapon can kill monstrous creatures quite nicely... or that cool death company dreadnought too... and you have points for them because you didn't buy a landraider). I would imagine that after you have identified what you want to use to kill light infantry, medium infantry, heavy infantry, take/hold objectives, monstrous creatures, transports, tanks, etc... THEN you can see if you would rather use the slower but harder hitting and slightly more survivable termies or the faster attack spamming death company. I see great potential for both of these units... it really is just a matter of what else is in your army and what kind of hole you need to fill.

You can also just go nuts with them and give them jump packs and bolters and let them run across the field (behind los blocking objects to make them a little more controllable) and just run straight at the center or a weak point in your enemies army... when that squad breaks turn your attention to the next closest thing until you close the distance and tear things apart (equip them appropriately with PF/TH, PW, Infernus pistol, Hand Flamer etc. to make them a general threat to anything) and then force your enemy to deal with them or feel the wrath that they can inflict on anything. As long as you keep them behind LOS blocking cover and scoot them up the field a bit before you go for the mad rush... they won't be diminished in strength as much... or just deepstrike them and give them a few more infernus pistols/hand flamers/plasma pistols/bolters (whatever works for your situation) the enemy HAS to deal with them. They have to deal with them not because "onoz its a landraider" or "onoz that is hard to kill" it will because the death company WILL do damage if you let them. Feel no pain will help with massed bolter fire and the jump packs will prevent the enemy from running away as easily (should they try to run it will make things easier for the rest of your army to assault/get shots in).

I can see the magic. I just need to figure out how many I should have and how many weapons I should give them (remember they don't need as many weapons in the first place because they already can re-roll hits and wounds with a chaplain). I figure that no one should take them in increments other than 5. Because for every five you can take a DC dread. So... it is kind of a waste to take 3 or 8... better to just take 5, 10, 15, etc. and get access to the DC dreads accordingly.

Sorry for the wall of text... but I figure a stream-of-consciousness post might help people out better than just saying "termies iz best" or "da death company iz moar killy".

BA Death Company - Thoughts? (For those with the new Codex)

Black Blow Fly — GMT

Auto rage makes them unviable in a competitive setting in my opinion. Sure you can shoot down your opponent's bait unit that's leading them by the nose around the table but that's soaking up your shooting for a turn or two.

G

BA Death Company - Thoughts? (For those with the new Codex)

I grappled the shoggoth — GMT

I wrote up an ard boyz army that looked like this

astorath
2 squads of sanguinary guard with two infernus pistols, power fist.
2 sanguinary priests with jump packs
2 squads of 30 death company with 8 power fists and a thunder hammer in each.

It wont win, but there will be someone who will get their day ruined by that army.

BA Death Company - Thoughts? (For those with the new Codex)

FoxPhoenix135 — GMT

Lol, I like the idea of having absolutely NO scoring units. A purely "kill them and take their stuff" army. Sounds hilarious.

What about the DC dreads? Not enough points?

BA Death Company - Thoughts? (For those with the new Codex)

I grappled the shoggoth — GMT

not enough points.
Its a fishermans army. It casts a net far and wide and slowly catches anything in it. Sure it will lose to anything fast and meched up, but if some body is lame enough to run horde orks that build will ruin their day.

BA Death Company - Thoughts? (For those with the new Codex)

the_ferrett — GMT

Hoarde orks is lame?

BA Death Company - Thoughts? (For those with the new Codex)

kill dem stunties — GMT

I think their best used with 5 jumppackers with a pfist or 2 and infernus pistol/hand flamers, with a deathcompany dread both in a storm raven, attach an ic for a bit of extra cc punch and you have a nasty hammer.

Re:BA Death Company - Thoughts? (For those with the new Codex)

felixcat — GMT

Just finished a game this evening with my new list.

2 Sanguinary Priests, Infernus Pistols 130 (with RAS)
3x Assault Squad (5), Flamer, Hand Flamer, Power Fist 615
Razorback, TL Plasma Gun/Lascannon, HKM

Reclusiarch 130 w/
9 Death Company, Thunderhammer, 4 Power Weapons 270
Death Company Dreadnought, Magna Grapple, Blood Talons 140
Storm Raven, TL Lascannon, TL Multimelta, Extra Armor 215

Now that is a pretty expensive DC squad at 1500 points. I was a bit lucky though in that I was able to get them on the table fast by irst turn three as I did DS the whole squad. I could deploy normally if I had first tuen but I decided to start everythingb in reserve. . It would mean everything starting in reserve. As it worked out I was able to DS safely against an IG list and my Raven got to their lines without damage. There is nothing that IG can muster that can take on that squad. It was a massacre once they started getting into melee. I used the Razors to go after objectives and had one with priest back up the death star unit.

I'm now a believer. I had thought to use a Landraider and drop the DC dread to get the points needed but I'm glad I had my magna grapple after the DS and the Blood Talons were awesome in assault. Never mind a Commissar and blob squad. You will eat through it quickly along with any command squad nearby. Twenty guardsman are laughable against this combined squad. Really, this squad is hard to take out.

I think that one of their real strengths is that they attract a lot of attention. They cannot be ignored as they are half your army list and your opponent really wants to take them down. But it's not as easy as it looks. Those twelve models have some staying power. I would certainly use them again.

BA Death Company - Thoughts? (For those with the new Codex)

schadenfreude — GMT

Neith wrote:After seeing an article on BoLS, I wanted to get Dakka's take on this. As a lot of you know, Death Company are no longer an Elites choice for Blood Angels, but a Troops choice instead. My question is do you think a Blood Angels army list can feasibly include Death Company without totally dedicating to them with an Astorath list? Also, how would you run the DC? In a Transport, or with Jump Packs? Would you add a Chaplain, a Reclusiarch or Lemartes? I'm interested in hearing what people have to say on the DC now.

For me, I see the pros as:
+ Potentially very dangerous assault unit, as any DC can upgrade to Power Weapons/Fists, Thunder Hammers and so on.
+ Armed with Bolters you could even have a decent firing line, as DC are Relentless.
+ In very large games you can run upto 30 in a squad, which is ridiculously hard to deal with, as each member has FNP. However, on the flipside, to run 30 you'd probably need an almost Apoc-sized battle.
+ Every 5 DC grants you a DC Dreadnought as a Troops choice, which is extremely nice.
+ Adding a Chaplain, a Relusiarch or Lemartes allows the DC to re-reroll any failed hits and wounds, which is amazing.

However, I'm not sure they're worth using because:
- They're fairly expensive units (4-5 more than a normal Tactical Marine, and that's before any upgrades).
- Thunder Hammers cost almost 2 Tactical Marines.
- Jump Packs are around 75% the cost of the DC Marine to begin with, making them an extremely expensive unit to run with any squad size.
- Black Rage is a HUGE downer. Not only does this give them the Rage USR (making them very difficult to control), Chaplains no longer negate this.
- Again from the Black Rage, this makes them a non-scoring unit.

I have 5 DC with Jump Packs from the old Codex, but I'm honestly considering ripping the Jump Packs off, giving them a Rhino to get around Rage a little and cutting points down.

How are people running DC with the new Codex? I apologise if it's too early ('Dex isn't officially out yet, I received mine early this week and have been stumped about the DC since).

DC with power weapon@35 points< Lighting Claw Terminator@40 points
DC with Jump pack@35 points DC with Jump Pack and power weapon=50 points a model that's 25% more than the cost of Sanguinary Guard or Terminators, both of which gain furious charge and feel no pain in the presence of a Sanguinary priest.
If you don't see the folly of 50 point DC may I present the 110 point DC
DC with jump pack and twin thunder hammers=110 points.

My point is simple: It's easy to overspend with DC.

Uses of DC

The bolter fire line
DC with relentless and a bolter @20 < Thousand sons with slow and purposeful +inferno bolts@23 points

DC dreads: For every 5 DC you can lose a troops choice and buy another non scoring unit. Seeing as how 2/3 games are objective based feel free to use up all 6 troops choices on units that can not win the game, it's perfectly legal and your opponents will never complain.

DC in a Rhino with a chaplain and a power fist or 2: At 20 points each with rerolls to hit and to wound they are going to pump out a lot of standard wounds. Mathhammer against MEQ or orks goes as follows

10 DC=40 attacks=30 (20 initial, 10 more with the re roll)hits=22.5 wounds (15 initial, plus 7.5 more with the re roll)

That's enough to really make ork boys cry. It should even drop 3 to 4 termies, and that's without a bonus from a sanguinary priest. I'm against the use of land raiders in general, but if you insist on running one loading a bunch of DC, a chaplain, and a SP on board would= a boat load of hurt when combined with an assault ramp.

BA Death Company - Thoughts? (For those with the new Codex)

Volkan — GMT

@ schadenfreude

Why would you add a Sanguinary Priest to a Death Company Squad? They already have both of the rules that he bestows on the squad.

Cheers,
~Volkan

BA Death Company - Thoughts? (For those with the new Codex)

schadenfreude — GMT

Oooops my bad, forgot they already have FC.

It doesn't change my opinion on DC and jump packs though.

At 20 points a model for a mechanized assault unit they are a good deal, at 35 points with a jump pack they are just plain over priced.

BA Death Company - Thoughts? (For those with the new Codex)

felixcat — GMT

If you go strictly by cost per wound against Meqs, DC outperform Sang Guard. If you add a Chaplain to the DC and Dante to the SG they still outperform the SG. DC on the charge with a Chaplain ( depending on loadout) will easily take down Nob Bikers or Terminators. Nids are their worst enemy though. Trygons, Tyrants, Primes, Toxigaunts, et all will often win combat. So there are nemesis units against them.

Some of the cost comparisons are really not fair evaluations. DC have FNP, FC and Fleet. With a Chappie they reroll hits and wounds. So they are very good at what they do.

BA Death Company - Thoughts? (For those with the new Codex)

Volkan — GMT

I agree there. If they paid the same price for packs as vanguard I'd might be more interested in that option. As it is I think that a drop pod delivery might be the way to go. not sure about bolters vs bp/ccw yet.

Cheers,
~Volkan

Automatically Appended Next Post:
@ felixcat

Death Company do not have fleet, only their dreads do.

Cheers,
~Volkan

BA Death Company - Thoughts? (For those with the new Codex)

schadenfreude — GMT

felixcat wrote:
If you go strictly by cost per wound against Meqs, DC outperform Sang Guard. If you add a Chaplain to the DC and Dante to the SG they still outperform the SG. DC on the charge with a Chaplain ( depending on loadout) will easily take down Nob Bikers or Terminators. Nids are their worst enemy though. Trygons, Tyrants, Primes, Toxigaunts, et all will often win combat. So there are nemesis units against them.

Some of the cost comparisons are really not fair evaluations. DC have FNP, FC and Fleet. With a Chappie they reroll hits and wounds. So they are very good at what they do.

FNP and FC are a dime a dozen in the new BA codex. Everything can have it.

The mobility of 50 point jump pack, fleet, power weapon DC is pretty staggering, but is it worth 150 points in a 10 man squad when a fast Rhino is 1/3 the cost? In a 6 man squad a razorback will still be cheaper. Jump pack DC will either be a very small squad that will be vulnerable to missile and plasma fire, or a 400+ point uber squad of doom that will be hard pressed to make it's points back seeing as how it's going to be a plasma magnet.

BA Death Company - Thoughts? (For those with the new Codex)

mcfly — GMT

I will certainly be putting some into my BA army, however, here is the maximum cost that they could be worth.

60 (3 Models)
540 (27 more Models) (600 total)
450 (jump packs) 1050 total
900 (Thunder hammers) 1950 total
90 (Plasma or Infernus pistols) 2040
150 (Lemartes) 2190

Two thousand one hundred and Ninety points.

Perfect for apocalypse though.

BA Death Company - Thoughts? (For those with the new Codex)

Anarchyman99 — GMT

Khornatedemon wrote:oh noes! effort in using a unit! assault terminators dont score and are expensive as well and take up an elite slot that is probably more valuable than a troop slot in the BA list. Should I not run them too? The only direct support DC probably need are a chappy for the re-rolls. Otherwise they are no different from any high cost CC unit with the exception of that you have to play smart with them and cant just throw them into whatever like TH/SS terminators.

I think people are writing them off because they want easy mode and dont want to deal with having to think and use a unit with a draw back.

Well said, I really don't see rage as an issue....you want them in CC right? and with JP's the 12" move you can make sure your where you need to be, and if you don't want to assault something run...they are not fleet so they can't charge.....IDK....I realy only see the consolidate to the closes a minor issue but you want them in CC. Can someone tell me how rage is so bad?

BA Death Company - Thoughts? (For those with the new Codex)

The Farseer — GMT

they look alright but if i have a realy moblie unit i could just make them run around the board wich would be really funny

BA Death Company - Thoughts? (For those with the new Codex)

Volkan — GMT

@ The Farseer

Do keep in mind that your really mobile unit will need to be the closest unit to them for it to lead them around. The list as a whole can bring some pretty decent shooting to the table so fast kites might not live too long. and if for any reason it gets immobilized the DC will probably eat it.
Also its not so much an issue if they happen to be in a transport or if they come down amongst some infantry in a pod. They might die from taking fire. But if they don't then they are a pretty big problem in the backfield.

Cheers,
~Volkan

Re:BA Death Company - Thoughts? (For those with the new Codex)

felixcat — GMT

@ felixcat

Death Company do not have fleet, only their dreads do.

I know - I was referring to my Death Star unit with a DC dread.

Do keep in mind that your really mobile unit will need to be the closest unit to them for it to lead them around. The list as a whole can bring some pretty decent shooting to the table so fast kites might not live too long. and if for any reason it gets immobilized the DC will probably eat it.
Also its not so much an issue if they happen to be in a transport or if they come down amongst some infantry in a pod. They might die from taking fire. But if they don't then they are a pretty big problem in the backfield.

Well I have my DC in a transport so Rage only becomes an issue once disembarked and you can be smart with them. In three games Rage was not an issue - going head to head in cc with Nids was though, lol. Never mind - I took away some knowledge for next time.

BA Death Company - Thoughts? (For those with the new Codex)

Aduro — GMT

It wouldn't be cheap... But filling up a Redeemer or Crusader with a unit of them plus maybe a Chaplain and pointing them at the enemy will certainly ruin someone's day. I'd maybe give them one Power Fist or Thunder Hammer so they don't get screwed if they get into a fight with a Dreadnought.

Re:BA Death Company - Thoughts? (For those with the new Codex)

Volkov — GMT

I keep trying to figure out a way for them to be good with bolters and jump packs...the idea of relentless jump packers makes me giddy. But at 35 points its just way too much. Games workshop did it on purpose so that no one would want to give them jump packs, but everyone already had the DC models with jump packs, so we have to buy new models. Anyhow, without jump packs its still useful to give a guy with power fist a bolter, since he won't lose 1 attack for a having close combat weapons

BA Death Company - Thoughts? (For those with the new Codex)

TheTrueProtoman — GMT

Really you are paying the exact same price from the previous codex for a DC with a jump pack, 30 points per model, 5 points per jump pack. I also play tested the DC and I found them to be great, but that's probably because I'm not stupid when it comes to kiting and I also used the death company dread with the new blood talons, lets just say that one dread took out 20 marines in one combat.

BA Death Company - Thoughts? (For those with the new Codex)

headrattle — GMT

I was playing a BA army over the weekend with my Necrons. I didn't do so bad and I found that you could lure those DC guys if you wanted. I used immortals to keep going back while putting fire into them. They would not go down easily though. But, I wasn't doing bad until that Mephiston guy came in and killed everything. He was a death machine. He single-handedly killed 5 Destroyers, 4 Immortals, a Destroyer Lord and a Lord. I only got 3 wounds on him and one of those wounds was because he periled. He would kill my lords before they could do anything to him.

So, in closing. DC. OK. I can handle them. Mephiston. My God! I need more shooting!

Re:BA Death Company - Thoughts? (For those with the new Codex)

Jaragoth — GMT

My intention for the death company are one of two options. I have been thinking since the codex came out of ways to overcome or get around the 'rage' problem. Also I would not run both of these in one list as they are both fairly expensive units and I would have to include astorath and i'm against that many points on HQ.

Unit 1:
5 Death Company with jump packs = 175
Dante - 225
Lemartes - 150

= 550

You would always hold this unit in reserve. With Dante using Descent of angels you can use this ability to get them on second or third turn since his ability applies to the unit. Then you use Dante's other ability Tactical Precision to deep strike them without scattering directly where you want them. Mainly behind their lines close to tasty non Mechanical units holding objectives. Your turn again they jump over the terrain, hit the closest unit to them (Opponent would have one turn to attempt to distract them, but you should be able to avoid that with a well done deep strike with no scatter.)

Then end of their turn if you haven't killed whatever you hit you can use Hit and run to bail out of combat and on your turn move back in and get the furious charge again. Basically obtaining the +1Str and +1 Int on combat on everyone of yours turns. A well used Hit and run can also potentially get you into combat with another unit instead. Also if things look too hairy Dante can always bail out of combat himself by pulling the unit out and letting just them go back in and he can direct his attention elsewhere.

Unit 2:
15 Death Company on foot = 300 (All Armed with bolters)
Reclusiarch Chaplain = 130pts or Chaplain Elite = 100pts (depending on your elite choices and points balance)
Land Raider Crusader = 250pts (Before upgrades)

= 680pts

This mass of models would have rage negated by using a transport. After you got them where you wanted them (Assuming you can get them where you want) you bail out of the assault ramp, fire 30 bolter rounds into whatever your looking at, and then assault for 45 attacks that re-roll hits and wounds at WS/S/INT 5. I think those number speak for themselves before applying math hammer to it.

In either of these cases you could also throw in a thunder hammer/PF or two in either squad depending on what you can afford points wise to help deal with a potential Walker/armor situation. Also that while I think these could be very effective, I can't say I have had the chance to test either yet because I am still expanding my Death company with the release of the new death company box which I think is amazing! I plan on buying multiple boxes and will have lots of parts for my tactical and assault squads. :

Also, the possibility of Sanguine Gaurd has crossed my mind and they would be better in some cases. For example if you did the Dante squad with them and and a Sanguinary priest you have a large squad of +2 saves with master-crafted power weapons, feel no pain, furious charge that can all have infernus pistols. They do not however re-roll hits and wounds and do not have WS 5 and rival the DC if not more after infernus pistols for points cost. They would however be scoring.

BA Death Company - Thoughts? (For those with the new Codex)

Sasori — GMT

If all else fails, at least the models look spectacular!

BA Death Company - Thoughts? (For those with the new Codex)

rdlb — GMT

I played some DC and two DC dreads on Monday. I decided to go first and it was too easy for my opponent to react to my deployment by putting little groups of gants in the way of the DC/dreads so they couldn't get the assault on anything good.

I think The dreads need pods and the DC should deepstrike with their JP. Or you could go second and force him to redeploy in his movement phase. It wasn't that the DC were being led around, it was just that the hordes protected the bigger bugs from the assaults.

The DC did last forever even though they were fed speed bumps and counter assaulted. Very Durable

BA Death Company - Thoughts? (For those with the new Codex)

I grappled the shoggoth — GMT

mcfly wrote:I will certainly be putting some into my BA army, however, here is the maximum cost that they could be worth.

60 (3 Models)
540 (27 more Models) (600 total)
450 (jump packs) 1050 total
900 (Thunder hammers) 1950 total
90 (Plasma or Infernus pistols) 2040
150 (Lemartes) 2190

Two thousand one hundred and Ninety points.

Perfect for apocalypse though.

That unit, sanguinor, and 5 tac marines. hooray ard boyz army.

BA Death Company - Thoughts? (For those with the new Codex)

Just Dave — GMT

Bearing in mind that I dont have the blood angels codex or play as them but I have read the forums, White Dwarf etc.

I think that the Death Company are under-estimated.

I'd say their main flaws are their price and other options available. Whilst Rage can be a problem, the difference with Death Company is that, providing the have the almost obligatory powerfist/thunder hammer, they can take on just about anything, unlike, for example, Blood Claws. So I don't believe rage to be as horrible as it's made out to be, add their own ability to their manoeuvrability and I wouldn't see it as too big a problem.

I feel that an advantage of Death Company is that their reputation, appearance and ability FORCES your opponent to deal with them, ie. they cannot be ignored. This is an advantage in ways as although the death company will draw fire, the rest of the army will not. For example, Termies are good. no doubt about that, but if you DS them then they lack the manoeuvrability afterwards and they will not have been taking the enemy fire on the rest of your armies behalf in the earlier stages, unlike Death Company.

I'd imagine some of the best uses for Death Company is to have 2 (or more) small to medium (5-7) sized Jump Pack squads amidst a Blood Angels army that mainly consists of mechanised or assault squads. This adds two tough, very killing and manoeuvrable squads that will draw fire from the rest of your army and really add a punch on the offensive.

Or drop-podding. The allows them to be right on the enemy's door step from turn 1 and will REALLY require dealing with, either in the form of shooting them (therefore not shooting the rest of your army) or running away (into the the face of the rest of your army) or ignore them and have them rip you apart.

Add the potential for chaplains and death company dreads and I'd say that's a recipe for destruction...

I think as much as their ability, the Death Company's sheer reputation and requirement to be dealt with is a major advantage - whilst you can have this at more numbers than say, Sang' guard or termies.

I'm not saying they're the best, I just feel a lot of you aren't recognising their potential (IMHO)...

Re:BA Death Company - Thoughts? (For those with the new Codex)

Nobzey — GMT

I just wanna know where GW got their numbers from. I can take assualt squads, drop the packs and get into a rhino for 15 pts. Yet a single DC pack is 15 points. You're telling me one jump pack = rhino?

BA Death Company - Thoughts? (For those with the new Codex)

Kirasu — GMT

Well a lot of GW codexs have the issue of "most of it is done" and then near the end they add something totally new.. yet dont go back and revisit the earlier stuff

Example is the SM codex which was supposed to be codex: ultramarines but near the end of the development cycle they added Vulkan, Pedro, lysander and shrike to make it just a variety of chapters.. The stuff they added at the end was of a much different "power level" compared to the ultramarine characters (Notice how chapter tactics is preserved for all the ultramarine characters, yet replaced with the non-Ums.. makes me think tactics was a Um specific ability in the beginning of the dev cycle)