<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Pinning, and running"]]>

<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Pinning, and running"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/15.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Pinning, and running
The first one deals with pinning. If you have a squad in base contact with your opponents immobilized vehicle, and they become pinned, do they still make their attacks against the vehicle? We came to the agreement that no, they do not, but I'd like to hear what you guys have to say about that.

Second one is running, while falling back. Didn't actually happen in this game, but could you run forwards while broken, instead of shooting?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/290047/1497672.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/290047/1497672.page GMT Re:Pinning, and running mandatory, and such would not be prohibited by the effects of pinning because going to ground merely prevents voluntary actions.

The question about running while falling back is answered by the Fall Back! rules, paragraph two on page 46.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/290047/1497694.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/290047/1497694.page GMT Pinning, and running http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/290047/1498034.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/290047/1498034.page GMT Re:Pinning, and running http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/290047/1498040.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/290047/1498040.page GMT Re:Pinning, and running

Lorne wrote:But the only way to be engaged in combat with a vehicle is if it is a walker. You do not stay engaged with regular tanks so you would not be able to attack.

Please read the rulebook before posting. It will save you from making incorrect comments.

Specifically, Page 63, under the Heading "Vehicles and Assaults", under the Subheading "Assaulting Vehicles" Under the Sub-Subheading of "Successive turns".]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/290047/1498049.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/290047/1498049.page GMT Pinning, and running http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/290047/1498071.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/290047/1498071.page GMT Pinning, and running

Lorne wrote:Hmmn, I will have to check it out when I get home. No rulebook here at work and can't load a digital one. Seems odd that you can target shoot at and pin a squad but it stays locked in combat with the tank.

It doesnt stay locked in combat, but if a unit remain in base contact they would be able to make attacks against the vehicle.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/290047/1498232.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/290047/1498232.page GMT Re:Pinning, and running

Gwar! wrote:

Lorne wrote:But the only way to be engaged in combat with a vehicle is if it is a walker. You do not stay engaged with regular tanks so you would not be able to attack.

Aha, just the person I wanted in the thread! Didn't have my rulebook at hand when I made the post, but here's why we decided to call it the way we did. Under Successive turns (emphasis mine):

"Units that still have models in base contact with a vehicle in it's Assault phase may attack it again, just as in a normal ongoing combat "

The first part, "may" was what he argued his point on. The rules for pinning state that you follow the rules for going to ground, which contains the following phrase -

"Whilst it has gone to ground the unit may not do anything of it's own volition"

My counterpoint was both the second part of the Successive Turns clause, and the fact that later on in the Going to Ground rules, that it states that if assaulted, they fight normally.

Thoughts on that?

E.T.A thanks for the page number on the Falling back/run question. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/290047/1499607.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/290047/1499607.page GMT Re:Pinning, and running required to attack with all of their attacks. So "just as in an ongoing attack" would be obligatory.

Sort of like voluntary Mandatory Safety Training.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/290047/1499828.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/290047/1499828.page GMT Pinning, and running
The unit that has assaulted a vehicle are not locked in combat, therefore they are not required to attack the vehicle in the successive assault phases. They may choose to do so however do not get a bonus for charging as they would be following ongoing attack rules, but are not required to do so as per the locked in combat ruling.

as mentioned previously the walker is the only case where the unit is forced to stay in combat, as walkers assault like infantry and follow the locked in combat ruling.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/290047/1500040.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/290047/1500040.page GMT Re:Pinning, and running The basic assault rules say that any model still in base to base contact or within 2 inches of a model in base to base, MUST fight in subsequent rounds. (Small rulebook p.35.)

The vehicle assault rules say that if the target vehicle does not move, units with models in contact MAY attack again, just as in a normal ongoing combat. (Small rulebook p.63.)

Yet in a normal ongoing combat it is not optional it is compulsory. In a normal combat you are only compelled to fight again if you are ‘locked in combat’.

You can’t be locked in combat with a vehicle for the simple reason that you can’t score equal wounds inflicted on both sides. Walker vehicles are an exception to this rule.

The Pinning rules say a Pinned unit counts as having Gone To Ground.

The Gone To Ground rules (SRB p.24) say the unit may not do anything of its own volition.

This would seem to preclude taking H2H attacks against a non-walker vehicle it is in contact with, since such attacks are not compulsory but optional.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/290047/1500326.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/290047/1500326.page GMT Pinning, and running
Is correct, however it also states they must be locked in combat and in base to base, or within 2 inches.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/290047/1500818.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/290047/1500818.page GMT Re:Pinning, and running
On page 35, "Who can fight?" it defines engaged models as members of units locked in combat. It is not possible to be engaged in combat without being locked in combat.

On page 63, in "Assaulting Vehicles" under "Launching an assault" the statement is made that the assault is carried out as normal, and "As normal, all engaged models will attack." It's only in the "Successive Turns" section that the statement is made that models in base contact with a vehicle are not locked in combat, but the binding of "during the shooting phase" is ambiguous and the sentence as a whole could be read as either
* When: During the shooting phase
* What: Models in base contact with a vehicle are not locked and can therefore be shot
or
* "Models in base contact with a vehicle are not locked"
* "and [models] can therefore be shot during the Shooting phase"

Clearly, whether or not the vehicle is locked in combat with the unit, pretty much all of the normal rules for being locked don't apply because of explicit statements not to do those various things--both sides are free to move away, both sides can get shot, there's no pile in move, etc.

All of this is relevant for the sentence "Units that still have models in base contact ... may attack it again, just as in a normal ongoing combat (including all models that would count as engaged in a normal assault)." That 'may' can be read as either as 'can' or as providing an option.

But more importantly, for the succeeding rounds of combat, in order to attack again, in other words, in order to be engaged with the vehicle, the models have to at least count as locked, even if they're not subject to all of the normal restrictions of being locked, in order to be engaged and make attacks at all. So if the models have to be locked in order to attack at all, then that lends additional weight to the 'can' interpretation for that all important "... may attack it again ..." quote.

In summary: The rules only say in one sentence that the unit isn't locked in combat, and for everything else the unit must be locked in combat in order to attack at all. Isn't it all just as clear as mud?

P.S. If you've read this far, I apologize for the formatting and the organization.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/290047/1501761.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/290047/1501761.page GMT Pinning, and running FAQ/Errata that deals with this, even though it is a somewhat unusual situation,

I can see it popping up in other places as well, for example - If I'm in base contact with the vehicle, and it's almost dead (immobilized, no weapons) can I NOT make my attacks against it, and instead back up and shoot at it during my turn, so I don't blow it up and kill all of my guys?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/290047/1501947.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/290047/1501947.page GMT Pinning, and running

Aramus wrote:I can see it popping up in other places as well, for example - If I'm in base contact with the vehicle, and it's almost dead (immobilized, no weapons) can I NOT make my attacks against it, and instead back up and shoot at it during my turn, so I don't blow it up and kill all of my guys?

to do a litmus test...

Scenario 1: not pinned/gone to ground

Turn 1A - unit assaults vehicle but does not kill it, rolls weapon destroyed or less.
Turn 1B - vehicle may not move, but it can shoot the unit that just assaulted it if it is able to shoot.
Turn 2A - unit as it is not locked in combat is free to move away in its movement phase or stay and hit vehicle again.
Turn 2B - vehicle may move if allowed to.

Scenario 2: Pinned

Turn 1A - unit assaults vehicle as above.
Turn 1B - vehicle shoots the unit, unit goes to ground to avoid the hit. Alternatively, 3rd party unit with pinning shoots and hits.
Turn 2A - pinned unit may not do anything in this turn, except to react to being assaulted or failing a morale test.
Turn 2B - Vehicle may move away if allowed to.

I think its pretty simple and straight forward.

'Pinned' or 'gone to ground' unit can do nothing but react to the enemy, ie being assaulted or forced to take tests.
Scenario 2's Turn 1B does not have the unit engaged in combat as it is not possible to be locked in combat with a vehicle.
The fact that they have been permitted to be shot, that allows the unit to go to ground or be pinned indicates that the unit is not in combat.

The unit for all intents and purposes have been disengaged from the assault at the end of Turn 1A.

A explicit exception is made that if you can continue an assault from the previous turn that the assaulting unit is considered to have already been engaged so as to not gain the additional attack from the charge, however, there is nothing to stop you in RAW from walking 6' away and then charging back in.

Something else to consider if you take the "who can fight " rule subjectively... i dont move the unit that assaulted the tank the previous turn, but i shoot at another target (cause i'm permitted to shoot with this unit cause its not locked in combat) can i still attack the vehicle that i'm in base to base?

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/290047/1502091.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/290047/1502091.page GMT Pinning, and running

Seriphis wrote:

Aramus wrote:I can see it popping up in other places as well, for example - If I'm in base contact with the vehicle, and it's almost dead (immobilized, no weapons) can I NOT make my attacks against it, and instead back up and shoot at it during my turn, so I don't blow it up and kill all of my guys?

That's another really good question, that I didn't even think about.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/290047/1502097.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/290047/1502097.page GMT Pinning, and running http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/290047/1502292.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/290047/1502292.page GMT Pinning, and running

ChrisCP wrote:No you may not. When you declare an assault you must follow the rules for disallowed assaults on page 33. That should solve your conumdrum a nice and a neatly.

Its nothing about delaring assaults...

You dont have to declare to continue an assault on a vehicle per RAW, but you are also not locked in combat precluding your ability to shoot.

It just happens, normally you are locked in combat, but because of the selective use of some of the rules, it could be construed as being possible to shoot from a unit in base to base with a vehicle it previously assaulted then 'continue the assault' as per the continuing assault rules. doesnt say anything about re-declaring assault.

Its shananigans though and i would never play it, or even try it.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/290047/1502315.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/290047/1502315.page GMT Pinning, and running RaW reasons why not now, as I'm fairly sure it does say 'as if locked in combat' on page 63 so

RaW one may shoot a a different Unit as one is only in BtB not Locked in, and secondly if the unit hasn't moved and neither has the vehicle then one has the line "may attack it again, just as in a normal ongoing combat" Giving permission to make the CC attacks against it.

Hmm, might have to try this one if I haven't missed somthing gaping (again lol) that someone could point out for us?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/290047/1502334.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/290047/1502334.page GMT