<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "1500 Chaos Space Marine list. Note: Partially Scrounged. "]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/14.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net 1500 Chaos Space Marine list. Note: Partially Scrounged. HQ-350
Chaos Sorcerer-165
-MoT
-Doombolt
-Bolt of Change

Daemon Prince-185
-Mark of Tzeentch
-Wind of Chaos
-Warptime

Troops-811
x8 Thousand Sons-811
+Asppiring Sorcerer
-Doombolt

x12 Khorne Berzerkers-307
incl. 1 upped to Skull Champion
-Powerfist
-Plasma Pistol

x10 Chaos Space Marines-250
-IoT
-Meltagun
-Flamer
Incl. 1 upped to Aspiring Champion
-Powerfist
-Twin Linked Bolter

Heavy Support-300
Chaos Vindicator-150
-Daemonic Possession
-Twin-Linked Bolter

Chaos Vindicator-150
-Daemonic Possession
-Twin-Linked Bolter

1466 total

I've borrrowed the DP and Vindis, and the rest are my troops maxed out. All things considered, how'd I do? The HQ's were designed to be able to handle small infantry or larger threats each, possibly teaming up to tackle big big threats, or the Sorc. can join other units that are struggling.

After reading many discussuons and talking to a few different people, I've decided that I'd rather swiss army knife my CSM's, Melta and flamer, rather than dedicate. I'm worried more about swarms than tanks, and likewise, my HQ's can handle both.

I put Doombolt on the Asp Sorc to capitalize on the TSon's strength's:Infantry to infantry combat, out of arms reach.

Anything I should do better, outside of Rhinos? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/290347/1501828.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/290347/1501828.page GMT 1500 Chaos Space Marine list. Note: Partially Scrounged. HQ.

Problem you have is no transport. The sons have slow and purposeful so without a ride you'll be moving pretty slow and won't get in range to unleash those ap3 bolters.

The khorne bezerkers are close combat so you want them in the fight a.s.a.p, yes? Foot slogging won't do this so put them in a ride.

A meltagun and a flamer in the CSM unit do not mix well. Take two the same.

Vindicators are ok.

You have lack of anti tank, really. Destroy the vindicators and you have very little which can threaten armour.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/290347/1502735.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/290347/1502735.page GMT 1500 Chaos Space Marine list. Note: Partially Scrounged.
mercer wrote:
A meltagun and a flamer in the CSM unit do not mix well. Take two the same.



I really wouldn't say this as an absolute statement. There are plenty of players out there that use melta+flamer squads to allow their squads to threaten/engage any unit they come across in an effective way (ie if they run into a tank they have a meltagun, if they run into a large infantry squad they have a flamer). It really comes down to personal preference and your playstyle to determine which is the most effective/efficient choice.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/290347/1503046.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/290347/1503046.page GMT 1500 Chaos Space Marine list. Note: Partially Scrounged.
You only have one of each which aren't effective enough to deal with the threat. One flamer won't scare large hordes at all.

It's not a personal preference it's just common sense. You don't take a knife to a gun fight put it this way...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/290347/1503074.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/290347/1503074.page GMT 1500 Chaos Space Marine list. Note: Partially Scrounged.
You speak in very simple terms and construct very simple scenarios where you say "it's just common sense. You don't take a knife to a gun fight"

What do you do with your 190 point squad, when a dreadnought is hauling up on you, and you equipped flamers. Or just as easily plausible, what about when you and your x2 meltaguns actually break open that ork transport, or rhino. And the 10-20 troops comes pouring out.

Taking one of each is something that Chaos Marines are notoriously good for.

The CSM wargear is extremely versatile, more than loyalist marines.

The safe road to take, is just take one of each. It's the most flexible unit in your codex, leave them that way. I'm not saying you shouldn't be streamlining all your units towards a specific purpose (because that's generally the goal with all units fielded). It's just the tactical maneuverability of a geared CSM squad is just incredible.



On all of your tzeentch stuff. I know it's a "pattern" but it's getting pretty pricey stacked up everywhere.

If you dropped the icon on the CSM to a regular one, and the two members of the khorne zerks. You could have enough points to field rhino's for your thousand suns and zerks with points left over.

Not saying that's the answer, it's just you need everyone in transports since you only have three scoring units

My final look at your list, is I say drop the vindicators, your paying quite a lot for them, and it is only one weapon. For the price of those two vindicators, you could field x 2 defilers, that's a much more versatile unit, already has demonic possession, and a very wide array of weapons. I've heard good things about Defilers, but I myself just use preds.

Good luck! Just trying to help]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/290347/1503402.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/290347/1503402.page GMT 1500 Chaos Space Marine list. Note: Partially Scrounged. MoT may be too pricy, but it's useful, and I needed to fill out points.

I would probably dedicate the CSM's if I had ven one more unit available, but with the single squad, I think the mixed is better.

If UI manage to find some unused Rhinos, I'll get back and see how to incorporate them. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/290347/1504485.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/290347/1504485.page GMT 1500 Chaos Space Marine list. Note: Partially Scrounged. IoT to a CSM squad is a total waste of points. The invuln save isn't enough to justify that many points with cover so abundant.

In regards to the flamers vs meltas debate, I'd strongly support taking 2 of the same weapon in one squad. While it's great to have versatile units, single meltas are notoriously unreliable.
You're looking at a 66.6% chance to hit for each melta. With 2, you can count on a hit just about every time.
Let's go through the Dreadnought example.
So you've got a 66.6% chance to hit
Then (assuming 6" range) You've got an 83.33% chance to penetrate, 8.33% chance to glance
Once you penetrate, you need to immobilize or destroy that dread to stop it from hitting you next turn, with the AP 1 bonus, that's a 66.6% chance if you penetrate, 33.3% if you glance, for a total of:
38.9% chance to stop the dread with one melta.
Considering the fact that the dreadnought costs just over half as much as your marine squad, I'd probably want to put 2 meltas in a squad and have them on armor duty.

If you have 2x flamers and that dread is bearing down on you, the 2x melta squad should be close enough to handle it. Either way, you want to give your squads a specific task, rather than having them semi-perform 2 roles

just my $.02


-edited for maths-]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/290347/1504535.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/290347/1504535.page GMT 1500 Chaos Space Marine list. Note: Partially Scrounged. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/290347/1504538.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/290347/1504538.page GMT 1500 Chaos Space Marine list. Note: Partially Scrounged.
mercer wrote:Well, yeah, it is. When you go and unleash that meltagun on a tank what is the flamer going to do? Oh nothing. When you burn hordes with the flamer which are in cover what's the melta going to do? Very little because the unit will get a cover save from the melta.

You only have one of each which aren't effective enough to deal with the threat. One flamer won't scare large hordes at all.

It's not a personal preference it's just common sense. You don't take a knife to a gun fight put it this way...


Your argument is inherently flawed. By the same token, what good is a 2x melta squad when it encounters a horde? Your argument works both ways and is exactly why this is a personal preference thing and not a "fact".

If you want to read the pages and pages and pages of discussion on this exact subject feel free to do a search, but the conclusion is the same as I just said. It matters more what you prefer to have and whether you want a balanced force able to take on any unit type they come across(but lose a shot) or you want dedicated weapon squads that can punish the correct unit type if they can get to them(but risk facing a unit their weapons are not useful against).

Mad Rabbit wrote:

In regards to the flamers vs meltas debate, I'd strongly support taking 2 of the same weapon in one squad. While it's great to have versatile units, single meltas are notoriously unreliable.
You're looking at a 66.6% chance to hit for each melta. With 2, you can count on a hit just about every time.
Let's go through the Dreadnought example.
So you've got a 66.6% chance to hit
Then (assuming 6" range) You've got an 83.33% chance to penetrate, 8.33% chance to glance
Once you penetrate, you need to immobilize or destroy that dread to stop it from hitting you next turn, with the AP 1 bonus, that's a 66.6% chance if you penetrate, 33.3% if you glance, for a total of:
38.9% chance to stop the dread with one melta.
Considering the fact that the dreadnought costs just over half as much as your marine squad, I'd probably want to put 2 meltas in a squad and have them on armor duty.


I think having a poor chance is better than none. To me this just sends home the point that it comes down to playstyle. Some would rather have dedicated units that hunt the type of unit they work against and gain an extra shot against that type. Some would rather have their units able to threaten anything that comes their way and not worry about coming into contact with something other than their intended enemy type.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/290347/1505252.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/290347/1505252.page GMT 1500 Chaos Space Marine list. Note: Partially Scrounged.
Halsfield wrote:
mercer wrote:Well, yeah, it is. When you go and unleash that meltagun on a tank what is the flamer going to do? Oh nothing. When you burn hordes with the flamer which are in cover what's the melta going to do? Very little because the unit will get a cover save from the melta.

You only have one of each which aren't effective enough to deal with the threat. One flamer won't scare large hordes at all.

It's not a personal preference it's just common sense. You don't take a knife to a gun fight put it this way...


Your argument is inherently flawed. By the same token, what good is a 2x melta squad when it encounters a horde? Your argument works both ways and is exactly why this is a personal preference thing and not a "fact".

If you want to read the pages and pages and pages of discussion on this exact subject feel free to do a search, but the conclusion is the same as I just said. It matters more what you prefer to have and whether you want a balanced force able to take on any unit type they come across(but lose a shot) or you want dedicated weapon squads that can punish the correct unit type if they can get to them(but risk facing a unit their weapons are not useful against).




And why is it flawed? What will be flawed it when you fire that melta at a tank and fail to do anything and the flamer cannot do anything. What is flawed is when that flamer kills a few orks and the melta does hardly any damage and you still get assaulted by the orks because the flamer isn't enough.

It's about redundancy. Sure you have flexibility but that's why you take a squad with all meltas and all flamers. Two are better than one and when going after tanks you don't unleash a flamer, what you going to do burn the paint work? lol.

I think it's your arguement which is actually flawed and a bit of tactics is required. You obiviously make sure that the meltas go after tanks, each weapon has a role. Taking them in singles just isn't enough fire power.

So if you read the "pages and pages" of discussion you'll find it's in fact the other way round. You don't take a jack of all trades master of none unit, you take a unit for the job and another to do another job - not a botch job unit which cannot do the job properly or get it done. Just think about it when 30 orks come at you and you've got one flamer. Just think when you've got one melta and you're hoping to wreck that tank..]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/290347/1505679.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/290347/1505679.page GMT 1500 Chaos Space Marine list. Note: Partially Scrounged. CSM, period.

If I had more, I'd dedicate, but I can't, and I want the army as a whole to be able to handle armour or bodies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, the player I'm borrowing from does have an extra Rhino or two, so dropping the Zerker squad down to 10, coupled with the already leftover points, I have a Rhino each for the Zerks and CSM.

I'm a little wary of Lash, because I play a friendly venue, but I could do it. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/290347/1507166.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/290347/1507166.page GMT 1500 Chaos Space Marine list. Note: Partially Scrounged. I've worked out a new list with the Rhino's I've been loaned.
HQ-340
Chaos Sorcerer-160
-Familiar
-Mark of Slaaneesh
-Lash of Submission
-Wind of Chaos

Daemon Prince-180
-Mark of Tzeentch
-Warptime
-Bolt of Change

Troops-839
x8 Thousand Sons-254
+Aspiring Sorcerer
-Doombolt

x10 Khorne Berzerkers-300
incl. 1 Skull Champion
-Powerfist
-Plasma Pistol
Rhino

x10 Chaos Space Marines-285
incl. 1 Aspiring Champion
-Powerfist
-Twin-linked Bolter
-Meltagun
-Flamer
-Icon of Tzeentch
Rhino

Heavy Support-300
Chaos Vindicator-150
-Daemonic Possession
-Twin-linked Bolter

Chaos Vindicator-150
-Daemonic Possession
-Twin-linked bolter

Better, I imagine. Anything I could do to fine tune it? Keeping with the theme, of course ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/290347/1513038.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/290347/1513038.page GMT 1500 Chaos Space Marine list. Note: Partially Scrounged.
Mixed squads vs dedicated squads is a matter of personal preference. One is not better than the other. I am not arguing that mixed squads are the best, but I have been trying to show you how they can be useful to prove my previous point that either is fine as long as you back it up with proper playstyle and list building.
mercer wrote:
And why is it flawed? What will be flawed it when you fire that melta at a tank and fail to do anything and the flamer cannot do anything. What is flawed is when that flamer kills a few orks and the melta does hardly any damage and you still get assaulted by the orks because the flamer isn't enough.

I explained exactly why it was flawed right after I stated that it was. The point was that there are situations where 2x flamer are useless, 2x melta are useless, 1xmelta+1xflamer are useless. You were arguing essentially that only the situations where 1xmelta+flamer were useless mattered which is a flawed argument.
mercer wrote:
It's about redundancy. Sure you have flexibility but that's why you take a squad with all meltas and all flamers. Two are better than one and when going after tanks you don't unleash a flamer, what you going to do burn the paint work? lol.

I'm glad you mentioned redundancy. When top tournament players like stelek and others(ICB, TKE, etc) build a list they build their lists with redundancy but also duality. That means taking lots of the same thing to ensure the job gets done if the first fails or falls, but also being balanced so a squad can avoid becoming tarpitted and can fill in for any role you need. As I said above, this isn't the only or best way to play, but it has worked quite well for them and they have backed it up with solid math theory and success.
mercer wrote:You obviously make sure that the meltas go after tanks

Oh, obviously. That works up until the point where your opponent has his turn and can move his units wherever he likes.
mercer wrote:
So if you read the "pages and pages" of discussion you'll find it's in fact the other way round.

I was referencing an ongoing discussion on these very forums with people arguing for dedicated and mixed units. They both bring up solid points which is why I stated above that it is a personal choice.
mercer wrote:
You don't take a jack of all trades master of none unit, you take a unit for the job and another to do another job - not a botch job unit which cannot do the job properly or get it done. Just think about it when 30 orks come at you and you've got one flamer. Just think when you've got one melta and you're hoping to wreck that tank..

You still haven't answered me as to why your situations where a melta+flamer squad are useless are more valid than the situations I presented where your 2x melta or 2x flamer squads would be just as useless/inefficient.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/290347/1513358.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/290347/1513358.page GMT