Latest posts for the thread "Measuring Etiquette"

Measuring Etiquette

jgemrich — GMT

So I was at an event this weekend.

I had a group of destroyer platforms (36" Gauss Cannon) lining up a Daemon Prince. Distance maybe 18 to 21 inches.
I pick up my dice to roll and he asks me to measure the distance, very seriously.

I was clearly inside and when I looked up at him I realized he oppononent was trying to see if he had the distance needed to counter charge.

I told him I would not measure the distance as evenly as I could. He backed off. I know that he could have forced the issue and made me measure the distsance but did not.

I understand a little gamesmenship but was this "out of line"? Would you ask to see an obvious measure to pick up advantage in your turn?

Measuring Etiquette

frgsinwntr — GMT

yes... He was well within his rights to ask you to measure. BUT you only need to show him that he is within the 36inch range by extending the tape measure the full 36

Measuring Etiquette

TopC — GMT

opponent asking you to measure something is clearly w/in his rights to ask you, if he is asking you to measure it for his own reasons ( counter charge ) its still w/in his rights to ask, now if you pull the tape out to 36'' and very quickly show that its in range..lol thats also w/in your rights dont have to show him the EXACT range you are from him just that your in it...

Re:Measuring Etiquette

Norbu the Destroyer — GMT

I think it was a good move to ask you to measure as some opponents will and it can give you information. It is a big time waister though to do it often.

You could also pull the tape out to 36" and flip it upside down so no info is transfered, only that the shot is within 36". I think the subtleties of gamemanship are great, as long as they are within the rules. Now putting your 12" ruler down next to a unit that is moving 6" to see if they will have a charge, I would consider that pre-measuring, a no-no, but asking for a range measurement is legit, at least IMO.

Re:Measuring Etiquette

daedalus — GMT

By the rules, you must measure. By the rules, I've not seen where you have to let him know what the real distance is, so long as it's within range.

Measuring Etiquette

Gamble — GMT

jgemrich wrote:I know that he could have forced the issue and made me measure the distsance but did not.

Asked and answered .

As the other have said, show you're in range without showing exact range etc.
I don't think it was a dick move, even if he was trying to get some info from your measure. It's a game with a winner and a loser. Gamesmanship is to be expected no?

Measuring Etiquette

Cannerus_The_Unbearable — GMT

My post will be incredibly helpful I'm sure, but it depends on my opponent. If I'm playing Mega-RAW guy then I'll tell him and he'll tell me because we both want to do the best we can. If I'm playing casual-guy, he usually doesn't care enough to clarify. To each his own.

Measuring Etiquette

jgemrich — GMT

I know the answer that was yes..perfectly legal and that I'm obligated to measure. I was really interested in if the audience at large engaged in that type of questioning or not.

What would you do if your opponent told you no (as I did)?

I really felt it was an OTT question to ask when the distance was nigh 1/2 of the range of the weapon.

Did I mention we were playing on 2x2 tiles as well?

Measuring Etiquette

TopC — GMT

if you told me no and it was OBVIOUSLY in range, id think you were intentionally trying to be a dick to me... you should of at the very least pulled out the tape to the max range of weapon and did a quick see its in range Dumb *** and gone about your shooting lol

Measuring Etiquette

I grappled the shoggoth — GMT

I had someone ask me to measure range to from my thunderfire cannon to a tac squad sitting roughly 2 feet away. Pull that tape measure out to maximum range, flip it upside down, and show him its somewhere within 24 inches.

Measuring Etiquette

Black Blow Fly — GMT

I agree with what Norbu said. Hold the tape out the full range & upside down so he can't see the actual distance from your unit to the target. He will still have to guestimate.

G

Measuring Etiquette

insaniak — GMT

I'm going to have to disagree with just about everyone in this thread.

The rules for measuring range when shooting (page 17 of the rulebook) do not tell you to just make sure that the target is within the maximum range of the weapon... they actually specify that you measure the distance from the firer to the target.

So no, I think he was well within his rights to ask you to measure. It's not giving him any more advantage that it's giving you... now you both know the exact distance between the units.

Measuring Etiquette

skyth — GMT

Of course, flipping it upside down can give you a couple inches of extra range.

I'm of the opinion that if you declare a shot, the range to target will be found out by both parties if they want to know.

Measuring Etiquette

Black Blow Fly — GMT

The OP said it was obvious that his target was within maximum range. If a weapon has 48" or more range it should be fairly obvious most of the time and if you have to measure more than halfway across the table your opponent more than likely won't be able to use it to gauge his full assault arc. If it's obvious I don't see a particular reason why you need to measure the exact distance even if the rules state you can. One thing I really liked a lot about the game Starship Troopers from Mongoose (designed by Andy Chambers) was you could measure any distance at anytime. This mechanic got rid of these kinds of problems as you see being discussed here.

G

Measuring Etiquette

insaniak — GMT

Black Blow Fly wrote: If it's obvious I don't see a particular reason why you need to measure the exact distance even if the rules state you can.

You need to measure because the rules say you have to measure.

If you want to play, as I suspect a lot of gamers do, that measurement is not required if it's obviously in range, that's fine... but it's not what the rules say to do, and unless you have actually agreed to play by your houserule your opponent is within their rights to ask you to measure it.

Measuring Etiquette

CptZach — GMT

insaniak wrote:I'm going to have to disagree with just about everyone in this thread.

The rules for measuring range when shooting (page 17 of the rulebook) do not tell you to just make sure that the target is within the maximum range of the weapon... they actually specify that you measure the distance from the firer to the target.

So no, I think he was well within his rights to ask you to measure. It's not giving him any more advantage that it's giving you... now you both know the exact distance between the units.

Thank you.

Finally some common sense in this thread.

Rules say you have to measure. So you do.

Re:Measuring Etiquette

keeblerpowell — GMT

I honestly don't see this as an issue at all. If you shoot (or use a ranged psy test or anything along that line at all) I would say that if your opponent wants to see the measurement he/she is at rights to do so.

I am REALLY bad with spacial measurements so I often ask to see measurements on ranged distances. Not at all looking for an advantage ... I just want to make sure that things are jolly.

Measuring Etiquette

Clthomps — GMT

I have had this happen, I just pull my tape out to the max range, flip it upside down so he can't see the numbers, and then sweep it over the field to show him whats in range.

Measuring Etiquette

Gornall — GMT

If something has to be measured (shooting, assault, Hood range, etc) then I play it where both players get access to the exact measurement if they want it.

Measuring Etiquette

Black Blow Fly — GMT

The title is about etiquette not rules. There is a difference although they are bound together.

G

Measuring Etiquette

insaniak — GMT

Black Blow Fly wrote:The title is about etiquette not rules. There is a difference although they are bound together.G

And normal etiquette is to follow the rules, unless agreed otherwise...

Measuring Etiquette

Hulksmash — GMT

Yeah, I'd say the measurement should be made and available to both players. I'm with Insaniak on this one.

Measuring Etiquette

Kilkrazy — GMT

The rules do not require precise measurement of the distance to the target. This can confer an unfair advantage on the other player. The upside down max range determination resolves the issue.

Measuring Etiquette

olympia — GMT

Kilkrazy wrote:The rules do not require precise measurement of the distance to the target. This can confer an unfair advantage on the other player. The upside down max range determination resolves the issue.

Absolutely. Your opponent need know only that you are in range.

Re:Measuring Etiquette

jgemrich — GMT

The intent of measuring the distance in the shooting phase is to determine if the weapon is in range for all parties. If it is 'clearly' in range whether due to target and shooter being within 50% of the range, or other battlefield markers (in my case 2 foot tiles) then those that request the measurement (since the rules "demand" it) do not do so for the intent of the rule (determining if the weapon is in range) but rather to gain advantage in their turn. While completely legal it is quite beardy.

I will note that my opponent and I had a very good game and it was very enjoyable. I just called out what I thought to be poor etiquette, rules or no and we settled into a nice game.

note: I like the solution to pull out the tape measure and turn it upside down over the area.

Measuring Etiquette

SagesStone — GMT

You know tipping it updise down makes it fall all over the place and become generally annoying right? Measure to the target you're shooting at, going up to the full range.

Stop at whatever comes first, max range or the target.

Measuring Etiquette

Guitardian — GMT

I guess if you really wanted to get persnicketty you could make some dowel rods or narrow strips of card, each measured to the max range of whichever weapon you have to fire. I know in my army there's only 12" 18" 24" 36" 48". 5 different sizes of straight measuring rods to make... cut them to exact lengths then right before the game take the measuring stick and show him that it is exactly 24" or whatever by holding a tape measure to it? This is going too far in my opinion when the easier solution would be to throw the tape measure at his head and tell him to quit being such an obvious prick

Measuring Etiquette

Black Blow Fly — GMT

I'm glad some people see it the way I do. Etiquette is about being polite.

G

Measuring Etiquette

olympia — GMT

n0t_u wrote:You know tipping it updise down makes it fall all over the place and become generally annoying right?

I'd say it is about as annoying as TFG asking you to measure 18" on a 36" range weapon.

Measuring Etiquette

Frazzled — GMT

skyth wrote:Of course, flipping it upside down can give you a couple inches of extra range.

I'm of the opinion that if you declare a shot, the range to target will be found out by both parties if they want to know.

Yea. I am going to want to see you're within distance. Otherwise you can stick it-its an illegal shot.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Clthomps wrote:I have had this happen, I just pull my tape out to the max range, flip it upside down so he can't see the numbers, and then sweep it over the field to show him whats in range.

Then I would stop you, and make you flip it back over and do it again. If you didn't I would get out my own measure and measure it as you did not follow what the rules say. Until you follow what the rules say I would continue to do that.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kilkrazy wrote:The rules do not require precise measurement of the distance to the target. This can confer an unfair advantage on the other player. The upside down max range determination resolves the issue.

No it doesn't. All it does it denote you pulled a tape measure out and flipped it around. Nothing more.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Black Blow Fly wrote:I'm glad some people see it the way I do. Etiquette is about being polite.

G

Being polite goes both ways.

Measuring Etiquette

Kilkrazy — GMT

Frazzled wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:The rules do not require precise measurement of the distance to the target. This can confer an unfair advantage on the other player. The upside down max range determination resolves the issue.

No it doesn't. All it does it denote you pulled a tape measure out and flipped it around. Nothing more.

Yes it does.

Method:
Set tape measure to 36 inches and lock.
Turn it over.
Compare length of extended tape to distance between shooters and target.
If it is larger they are within range.

Where's the problem?

Measuring Etiquette

Frazzled — GMT

Kilkrazy wrote:
Frazzled wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:The rules do not require precise measurement of the distance to the target. This can confer an unfair advantage on the other player. The upside down max range determination resolves the issue.

No it doesn't. All it does it denote you pulled a tape measure out and flipped it around. Nothing more.

Yes it does.

Method:
Set tape measure to 36 inches and lock.
Turn it over.
Compare length of extended tape to distance between shooters and target.
If it is larger they are within range.

Where's the problem?

By turning it over you're showing bad faith. I don't trust you at that point and you keep the measurement accurately.
Take the measure, stretch it its full distance and run it in an arc from the shooter to the target. That keeps a true distance blurry but offers proof of range.

Measuring Etiquette

Soup and a roll — GMT

The rules say to measure it. He's being cheeky by asking you to measure for him, but it is rude to refuse. Just because he's being an ass doesn't mean you should.

Re:Measuring Etiquette

Primarch — GMT

Interesting question. I wouldn't flip the tape over, cause that could be perceived as an attempt to hide something. But I would lock the tape at 36, and sweep it over the target, maybe just fast enough that he couldn't guage exact distance, or even me for that matter.

Clay

Measuring Etiquette

Kilkrazy — GMT

Frazzled wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:
Frazzled wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:The rules do not require precise measurement of the distance to the target. This can confer an unfair advantage on the other player. The upside down max range determination resolves the issue.

No it doesn't. All it does it denote you pulled a tape measure out and flipped it around. Nothing more.

Yes it does.

Method:
Set tape measure to 36 inches and lock.
Turn it over.
Compare length of extended tape to distance between shooters and target.
If it is larger they are within range.

Where's the problem?

By turning it over you're showing bad faith. I don't trust you at that point and you keep the measurement accurately.
Take the measure, stretch it its full distance and run it in an arc from the shooter to the target. That keeps a true distance blurry but offers proof of range.

That's an acceptable compromise.

Measuring Etiquette

Frazzled — GMT

Ayah I'm not trying to be a butthead here, but the prepodnerence of the 'etiquette' is on the part of the shooter and a flipped tape measure screams "cheater" and "TFG" when there are easier methods as noted above. If Master "you call me a cheater I'll shoot in the Face" Frazzled is saying this smacks of cheating then there's a problem here.

Measuring Etiquette

Kilkrazy — GMT

The original situation was one where the player's troops were very clearly within range and the other guy was only asking for the distance to be measured because it would enable him to know it for a possible charge the next turn.

Remember you can't pre-measure charges either.

Measuring Etiquette

Frazzled — GMT

Kilkrazy wrote:The original situation was one where the player's troops were very clearly within range and the other guy was only asking for the distance to be measured because it would enable him to know it for a possible charge the next turn.

Remember you can't pre-measure charges either.

No, the player is saying they were very clearly in range. We have no proof.

Measuring Etiquette

Sanctjud — GMT

Frazzled wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:The original situation was one where the player's troops were very clearly within range and the other guy was only asking for the distance to be measured because it would enable him to know it for a possible charge the next turn.

Remember you can't pre-measure charges either.

~~No, the player is saying they were very clearly in range. We have no proof.~~ Pics or it didn't happen.

-Fixed that for you .

I would just measure it out as normal. It provides information for both parties, and the owning player should have been careful with his movement before the shooting phase. If he screws up and is in charge range, that's on the owning player.

Although a war game, almost everything is played transparently and essentially with complete information, I don't see how this is any different, it is information for both parties, sure it's a sequential game and the opponent benefits from it, but that's how it goes.

Measuring Etiquette

nkelsch — GMT

Wow... the quality of player in this game has really slipped if people are incapable of judging simple distances and are now needing to rely on opponents measuring. Especially on these 2x2 gridded boards (which is as EZ moade as you can get now)

My answer would be 'who cares' because anyone who pretends to be any good at this game should be capable of accurately judging all distances via looking at it. I remember when we had to guess ranges and it would make or break games. I was king of the looted basilisk.

I guess if someone needs me to pre-measure for them to judge distances, then I probably wouldn't be too worried about the game being 'competitive' in a sense if he is incapable of judging simple distances or has to have 'help' in order to beat me. If he needs to win like that, who cares, it is just a game.

Measuring Etiquette

SagesStone — GMT

It's simple, measure from the firer to the target. No need to go full range. Compaire result to the range value. Uses common sense and no one really gets to premeasure stuff.

Do all of you pull out the tape messure 48" to be sure of a weapon being in range? Even if the opponent asks you and its really something ike 20" away >_>

Basalisk = fun in this case.

Measuring Etiquette

CptZach — GMT

I love how this thread has degenerated into:

"if you play different than me or by the rules, you are a jerk"

Re:Measuring Etiquette

generalgrog — GMT

I'm with Frazz on this. If my oponent asked me to measure, I would,.....and do it quickly.

GG

Measuring Etiquette

Guitardian — GMT

Both myself and my super tournament competingly serious brother only measure range when it is questionable. If it's a half inch short or not kind of check.

Nobody I play with measures a Missile Launcher shooting at a target that's only a foot or so away because it's just OBVIOUSLY in range. Yeah you measure for a meltagun for that sort of thing, or rapid fire, but show some restraint with rules lawyering, right?

If it was around 4 feet away sure you want to measure it for your krak missile... but seriously, within reason. 12"??!!??!! Etiquette does NOT go both ways when one player is obviously playing with an agenda that has nothing to do with the rule they are enforcing.

My possibly unwise advice would be to tell the guy that you know what his alterior motive is and you are obviously in range and he should play nicer instead of trying to finagle an advantage that the rule was not intended for.

I usually just trust my opponents to be honest. I don't check their points in their lists, their ranges, their rolls, heck I go out for a cig while the other guy does his movement phase sometimes. I assume he's doing it correctly, if anything because he never knows if I'm paying attention or not, and is scared of being called out for blatant cheating. But more likely because he wants to play fairly.

I've only ever called a guy out once because he thought I wasn't paying attention and for some reason his orks had advanced 8" instead of 6" before his assault phase, but, before my smoke break, I knew exactly where his lead nob was in relation to a corner of terrain piece. Calling someone out is never pretty and I hated doing it, and haven't since I just let people fudge stuff if they want and roll my eyes and sigh.

The way I see it, if a guy is cheating, or milking rules loopholes or whatever because I just don't care to call him out, then he obviously REALLY needs to win, if he's going to go to such lengths. Maybe I'm a punk loser I guess, but I just don't care. Let him win if he has to risk being seen as a jerk over an inch of movement when we're playing with our toys.

Measuring Etiquette

syanticraven — GMT

I had this problem When firing one of my railguns at my opponent.

He asked me to clearly measure the distance between my Broadside and his Rhino. I asked him if he somehow thought he was 72" away from me on a 48" table But gave in said fine I will measure.

Pulled out 72" measured from the back of the table to the front and showed him I could hit anything on the board as I am in range.

Although I don't range find. When checking if a unit hits I pull the tape to the maximal range of the unit and measure.

Measuring Etiquette

Black Blow Fly — GMT

Going both ways... hee! I wont touch that one.

G

Measuring Etiquette

Guitardian — GMT

just another thought... those rangefinder thingys on IG stormtroopers... if everyone has to measure every shot precisely they become kind of irrelevant, and I'm pretty sure they are factored into the overall cost of the stormtrooper. I don't like paying an extra point for something everyone else can already do anyways.

I believe the rule is that you have to check that it is in range, not the precise range. If you have a stormtrooper scope then you can go ahead and check the exact range if you want but there is no mandate to measure the exact distance, just that it is 'in range'.

Measuring Etiquette

jgemrich — GMT

Frazzled wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:The original situation was one where the player's troops were very clearly within range and the other guy was only asking for the distance to be measured because it would enable him to know it for a possible charge the next turn.

Remember you can't pre-measure charges either.

No, the player is saying they were very clearly in range. We have no proof.

Ahhh correct. But I'm asking you a "what if?" question. So I hope you could imagine the situation without any need of proof. I'm not looking for any sort of internet win or anything. Just looking to see how the group at large would handle the situation I laid out if they were in it on either side. The fact that some are incapable of imagining the situation w/out proof that it is possible may be the best arguement of all for a need to measure the distance.

Thanks for all the comments.

Measuring Etiquette

Frazzled — GMT

If it were blindingly clear yea thats stupid but I would still measure at opponent's request, but in the matter I stated before.

I have REALLY bad short term memory. Combined with that the hearing isn't hot. Part of that is I forget what is shooting or get confused on what is shooting. I'll ask for range and my opponents just tell me the range of the weapon (36 in or H bolter). They don't have to measure, just remind me of the distance.

Measuring Etiquette

olympia — GMT

Frazzled wrote:

I have REALLY bad short term memory. Combined with that the hearing isn't hot.

How old does that make you in beagle years?

Measuring Etiquette

Redbeard — GMT

It is entirely within a player's right to ask that a measurement for a declared action be taken. It is not gamesmanship to use that information later in the game, it is intelligent play. It's not unsporting or anything else like that.

Echoing what Insaniak said, the rules say that you measure range. You don't establish that it's within a minimum, you measure it. The only rude behaviour in this case is what several posters are proposing - turning your tape measure upside-down (in clear violation of the rules), throwing your tape measure at your opponent, or even refusing to measure.

If you don't want your opponent to know the distance between two units, don't do anything that allows them to get a measurement between them (like shooting them). Otherwise, simply accept that an intelligent opponent may use your actions to gather information for their own purposes, and they're not trying to cheat, they're following the rules as written.

Measuring Etiquette

Black Blow Fly — GMT

If your model was one inch away to assault another unit not in cover would you ask your opponent to measure it? No you wouldn't. The example given here in the OP is gaming the opponent for an advantage.

G

Measuring Etiquette

Frazzled — GMT

olympia wrote:
Frazzled wrote:

I have REALLY bad short term memory. Combined with that the hearing isn't hot.

How old does that make you in beagle years?

Not old, two or three thousand dog years. Almost as much as TBone the Terrible, the only creature on earth more crotchety than I am.

Measuring Etiquette

Redbeard — GMT

Black Blow Fly wrote:If your model was one inch away to assault another unit not in cover would you ask your opponent to measure it? No you wouldn't. The example given here in the OP is gaming the opponent for an advantage.
G

Where in the rules does it say that this information is not available to both players? If both players play by the rules, then there is no advantage to either side. The only time an advantage is found in this situation is when one player deliberately ties one of his hands behind his back and then expects his opponent to do the same.

The rules, found on page 17, are quite clear:

When you're checking range, simply measure from each firer to the nearest visible model in the target unit.

If you want to be really precise, there is nothing in there about being allowed to not measure, however convention dictates that the measurement may be waived if both parties agree. However, as long as one side wants to see the measurement, this is perfectly legal, and that information is available to each party.

The only person acting shady in this situation is one who seeks to deny a measurement to an opponent at a time that the rules state the measurement should be made.

Measuring Etiquette

Black Blow Fly — GMT

It's being obtuse if you want to use that phrase to snipe actual distance.

G

Measuring Etiquette

Guitardian — GMT

The rule state that you have to measure the range.

The simple solution is to have a 3rd party verify it that yes it is in range. Nowhere does it require that you show your measurement to your opponent, just that you measure it so that YOU know it's a valid shot. Get the next guy over to verify your claim that you are in range.

If dude wants to be pissy enough to ask you to check range on your railgun or missile, tell him he can turn around or go to the bathroom and his buddy can give you a yes/no answer whether it was in range?

Nowhere does it say that you have to show the measurement to your opponent. It just says you have to measure it. That's honest gaming. I personally wouldn't care (and wouldn't actually chuck a tape measure either that was just a funny thought) enough to worry about it. I would be more worried about the mental state of the person insisting that I measure... okay fine, I MEASURE! NOT YOU! I know I'm this far away... NOT YOU!

Just get a 3rd party to acknowledge that you measured the range and it was in fact, in range. This should solve all issues. Rules Lawyers and TFG, WAAC, etc can be jerks, and that's why a third party is your best friend when coming across them.

Measuring Etiquette

Frazzled — GMT

Guitardian wrote:The rule state that you have to measure the range.

The simple solution is to have a 3rd party verify it that yes it is in range. Nowhere does it require that you show your measurement to your opponent, just that you measure it so that YOU know it's a valid shot. Get the next guy over to verify your claim that you are in range.

If dude wants to be pissy enough to ask you to check range on your railgun or missile, tell him he can turn around or go to the bathroom and his buddy can give you a yes/no answer whether it was in range?

Nowhere does it say that you have to show the measurement to your opponent. It just says you have to measure it. That's honest gaming. I personally wouldn't care (and wouldn't actually chuck a tape measure either that was just a funny thought) enough to worry about it. I would be more worried about the mental state of the person insisting that I measure... okay fine, I MEASURE! NOT YOU! I know I'm this far away... NOT YOU!

Just get a 3rd party to acknowledge that you measured the range and it was in fact, in range. This should solve all issues. Rules Lawyers and TFG, WAAC, etc can be jerks, and that's why a third party is your best friend when coming across them.

Wait, are you really going to go through all that just for a simple question and a basic one in the rules?
This sounds like a job for... random weiner dog pics!

Measuring Etiquette

Redbeard — GMT

Guitardian wrote:
Nowhere does it require that you show your measurement to your opponent, just that you measure it so that YOU know it's a valid shot. Get the next guy over to verify your claim that you are in range.

Is that really the attitude to have in enjoying a game? Measurements are not secret information, both sides are entitled to know the answer to any measurements that are legally taken. If you want to go down the route of hiding measurements, then look away while I measure my charges, and they'll all be within six inches, you know...

You're missing the larger picture - it's honest gaming as long as both people play the same way. Now, one way is supported by the rules, that happens to include legal measuring between models when shots are declared, and one way is not. It isn't pissy for an opponent to ask that you follow the rules, it is pissy for you to expect to play a game by some unwritten set of rules that exist in your head, and to make an issue of your opponent asking you to follow the rules that are actually written in the book.

Measuring Etiquette

Black Blow Fly — GMT

The rule you have quoted does not state you have to reveal the exact distance. Redbeard you have said elsewhere tournaments are more about getting people together and having fun... I am having a hard time understanding why you are such a hardliner on this one.

G

Measuring Etiquette

CptZach — GMT

Redbeard wrote:
The rules, found on page 17, are quite clear:

When you're checking range, simply measure from each firer to the nearest visible model in the target unit.

Honestly, how do you even argue against this?

Guitardian wrote:The rule state that you have to measure the range.

The simple solution is to have a 3rd party verify it that yes it is in range. Nowhere does it require that you show your measurement to your opponent, just that you measure it so that YOU know it's a valid shot. Get the next guy over to verify your claim that you are in range.

The rules don't say you can use a third party to verify range. And since, according to you, your opponent can't know the exact range, then neither can you. Meaning no shooting/movement/charges ect whatsoever since you are not allowed to see ranges measured.

Such a joke...

Measuring Etiquette

Janthkin — GMT

Black Blow Fly wrote:The rule you have quoted does not state you have to reveal the exact distance. Redbeard you have said elsewhere tournaments are more about getting people together and having fun... I am having a hard time understanding why you are such a hardliner on this one.

Nothing says you have to show your opponent your dice rolls, either. Guess how well THAT would go over?

Measuring Etiquette

Redbeard — GMT

Again, do you really want to go down the rabbit hole of problems that not revealing legally made measurements would cause?

As to your other comment... arguments are not fun. No one rational goes to a tournament and wants to get in a fight. The best way to avoid this is to have a clear understanding of what is expected before going to the tournament. If different people have different expectations of how something should be done, that's where problems will come from.

So it's better to establish the expectations ahead of time, right? As long as we're all playing it the same way, it is all good, and no one has an unfair advantage - both players can do the same thing.

All that remains then is for people to acknowledge that the rules clearly allow this measurement to be made... for whatever purpose either player may have of that information. Remember, this goes both ways. If you're shooting at a unit with a long-range gun, you can always measure your own shot too, and possibly establish ranges for your other units in the process, either for their shooting or their charges.

Should your opponent complain if you declare your shooting in an order that allows you to get information relevant to your later actions before declaring those actions?

The use of the information shouldn't be an issue. You're so concerned that your opponent will glean some bit of knowledge. But that knowledge, by the rules, is something they're entitled to because you declared those shots.

Measuring Etiquette

Black Blow Fly — GMT

It has already been pointed out how to verify if a target is in range without showing the exact distance. What is wrong with that? Really shouldnt matter at all.

G

Measuring Etiquette

Redbeard — GMT

Black Blow Fly wrote:It has already been pointed out how to verify if a target is in range without showing the exact distance. What is wrong with that? Really shouldnt matter at all.

You know, that might work when you're measuring a 48" shot from 3" away, but what if you've got an 18" range gun, and it's actually close. You cannot be trying to assert that different steps should be taken for measuring things based on how close you think they might be. Don't you see the potential for abuse there too?

What's wrong with simply admitting that the rules allow your opponent to see the measurement between their unit and the unit that is shooting it. Why is that so hard for you? Even when presented with the text from the rulebook, you seem to be irrationally attached to the idea that this is somehow wrong or unfair.

Measuring Etiquette

skyth — GMT

Personally, I consider someone who won't measure and show the range for a shot when asked to be a TFG and someone who I have no desire to play if I have any choice in the matter.

Measuring Etiquette

jgemrich — GMT

Janthkin wrote:Nothing says you have to show your opponent your dice rolls, either. Guess how well THAT would go over?

From the "good ettiquette" side...nothing in your dice rolls can convey an advantage to your opponent. They are what they are.

Measuring Etiquette

Guitardian — GMT

Redbeard wrote:
Guitardian wrote:
Nowhere does it require that you show your measurement to your opponent, just that you measure it so that YOU know it's a valid shot. Get the next guy over to verify your claim that you are in range.

Is that really the attitude to have in enjoying a game? Measurements are not secret information, both sides are entitled to know the answer to any measurements that are legally taken. If you want to go down the route of hiding measurements, then look away while I measure my charges, and they'll all be within six inches, you know...

You're missing the larger picture - it's honest gaming as long as both people play the same way. Now, one way is supported by the rules, that happens to include legal measuring between models when shots are declared, and one way is not. It isn't pissy for an opponent to ask that you follow the rules, it is pissy for you to expect to play a game by some unwritten set of rules that exist in your head, and to make an issue of your opponent asking you to follow the rules that are actually written in the book.

Oh come ON dude! The rules, as you pointed out, require that a measurement be made. Nothing ever requires that it be shared. Now, as I have already pointer out, personally I couldn't care less, and wouldn't really care, and as Frazz pointed out "would you really go to such lengths...?" Well, no personally of course I wouldn't you of all people know how I play! I don't nitpick on details, but who is the worse sport? The guy blatantly abusing the measurement rule for alterior motives or the guy who RAW measures it and tells him to look away because he's being a spanker?

And why do stormtroopers have those targeting rangefinder decices as special equipment if any squad can just do it anyway? Nobody answered me on that when I first brought it up. That's supposed to be a special advantage. If all you have to do is call a shot with ANY squad, where is the special advantage?

As another for-instance, my farseer has a pistol. It has a range of 6". Is it really in the spirit of the rules that I take a bank shot accross to the far corner of a 4x6 table just to measure the range to your artillery? When I know he can shoot nowhere near far enough? Technically I can measure, just to make SURE the pistol is out of range... (but now I know it's in range for my missile launcher parked right next to the farseer!) but, as you said Redbeard, that's not really a fun way to play. I'm just thinking that if an opponent is going to be so blatantly anal as to require you range every shot, we may as well be as blatantly anal as to say "yes I measured it, but nowhere in the rules does it say I have to tell you what I measured".

Measuring Etiquette

CptZach — GMT

Guitardian wrote:

And why do stormtroopers have those targeting rangefinder decices as special equipment if any squad can just do it anyway? Nobody answered me on that when I first brought it up. That's supposed to be a special advantage. If all you have to do is call a shot with ANY squad, where is the special advantage?

Because they get to measure before they declare shots. meaning they can make sure their in range of what they want to shoot...

The rules say "measure to the closest model", NOT "make sure the target is in range."
When you make a measurement in this game it is always treated as common knowledge. (see movement, assaults, ect ect)
Hence, when you measure to see if you are in range to shoot, it is considered common knowledge.

Guitardian wrote:
As another for-instance, my farseer has a pistol. It has a range of 6". Is it really in the spirit of the rules that I take a bank shot accross to the far corner of a 4x6 table just to measure the range to your artillery? When I know he can shoot nowhere near far enough?

You get a 6" measure, not however far you want...

You should probably go read the rulebook before trying to have an argument with people about the rules...

Measuring Etiquette

Redbeard — GMT

Guitardian wrote:
And why do stormtroopers have those targeting rangefinder decices as special equipment if any squad can just do it anyway? Nobody answered me on that when I first brought it up. That's supposed to be a special advantage. If all you have to do is call a shot with ANY squad, where is the special advantage?

It's not much of an advantage and that's why it's a quirky little rule that doesn't seem to actually cost any points. And, it does have uses, like if you use them first, you can range your subsequent shots.

As another for-instance, my farseer has a pistol. It has a range of 6". Is it really in the spirit of the rules that I take a bank shot accross to the far corner of a 4x6 table just to measure the range to your artillery? When I know he can shoot nowhere near far enough? Technically I can measure, just to make SURE the pistol is out of range... (but now I know it's in range for my missile launcher parked right next to the farseer!) but, as you said Redbeard, that's not really a fun way to play.

I think that's a different case altogether, and I agree that this example is pushing good sportsmanship.

The difference is, if you take a shot at my troops with something, I am entitled to know the range between the unit you shot with and my targeted unit. The rules give me that right. I'm not breaking the spirit of the rules if finding out what that distance is benefits me. In your example, you're taking an action deliberately, with no intent of it succeeding, in order to gather information that would otherwise be denied to you.

I'm just thinking that if an opponent is going to be so blatantly anal as to require you range every shot....

No one is talking about making someone range every shot. There are times in games where knowing the exact distance between two units is relevant, and many more times where it isn't. If your opponent asks for the exact measurement, at a time when the rules state that they're allowed to get that measurement, because they think it might be useful information, that's not being anal, that's playing the game the way it is written.

Measuring Etiquette

syanticraven — GMT

I think the rules incorporate that when the measurement is being taken the information Is seen by both players. (unless the opponent is absent minded, and that's just to bad for them)

Granted Id allow them to do it but if it annoyed you, you are within your rights to measure as quickly as you possibly can as long as it is in a legal manner.

Same with a dice roll. It is hard to hide your dice rolls lol.
I would hate to get in this proposed situation. It is not a nice game when you cannot trust the person across from you to play fairly. I.E they hide their measurements/rolls, which means they could be cheating and if they are doing that then what other information are they withholding that you should be allowed to know.

Measuring Etiquette

CptZach — GMT

syanticraven wrote:
Granted Id allow them to do it but if it annoyed you, you are within your rights to measure as quickly as you possibly can as long as it is in a legal manner.

And then they just say, "I don't think you were in range, can you remeasure"

Measuring Etiquette

puma713 — GMT

CptZac wrote:

You get a 6" measure, not however far you want...

You should probably go read the rulebook before trying to have an argument with people about the rules...

As should you. You don't even measure the range of the weapon. You measure from the closest shooting model to the closest model in the target unit. Then, you check to see if you're in range or not. Page 17, BGB. It has nothing to do with the weapon's maximum range.

So, a farseer with a pistol could most certainly target devastators 52" away. He then measures from his farseer to the devastators, finds that 6" isn't enough to hit, and auto-misses. But at the same time he can legally check any measurements along that 52" line, including how far he needs to move assaulters, how far other weapons can shoot and how far he may need to move vehicles. All gleaned from one 6" shot.

Legal? Yes. Beardy? Hmm. . .

Measuring Etiquette

syanticraven — GMT

We can play the 'and then' game all day. But it is silly and ongoing. The point was you can measure as quickly as you like within the rules. What happens after that is another story.

Measuring Etiquette

Guitardian — GMT

CptZach wrote:

You get a 6" measure, not however far you want...

You should probably go read the rulebook before trying to have an argument with people about the rules...

You got a page number where it literaly says I have to show you? NO? WHAT? OMG my rulebook must just be flawed... All I see is that I have to measure it. Cite your source if you want to be insulting. I never saw anything that I can only measure to 6" either. Those, sir, are rules in YOUR head, which are by most people kind of universally taken for granted. I don't actually need to let you see my dice rolls either ("hey I'm blind, I can't see yours you can't see mine...") We just take certain rules abstractions for granted for the sake of a good game, even if everything isn't perfectly ordered. I've always said, if you don't like the occasional ambiguities go play chess.

All it says is that I have to measure the distance to my target, nothing about who sees the measurement, just that it was established as measured and in fact, in range. Again I can't emphasize more how I would never use this kind of playstyle, but if someone wants to get REALLY technical with RAW loopholes I advocate being just as much of a jerk in return. No one I know wants to play like that though. So yup my farseer targets your whirlwind... how far is it? Oh I guess its out of range.

I just dont want to be that much of a dick to play like that.

Measuring Etiquette

Frazzled — GMT

Modquisition on. Everyone lets be mellow. I've already given out two warnings and a suspension today.

Measuring Etiquette

Guitardian — GMT

Save us Frazz! We argue too much... (did the pup end up eating the crab?)

Just a synopsis so far as far as I see it. Some people see this as a perfectly legit play tactic while some think it is kind of unsporty.

As a somewhat relevant parallel, I know for a fact that the distance from my index finger to the base of my thumb is exactly 6 inches, and that my shoes are exactly 9 inches. I do use these as a referance when planning out charges (especially the perfect 6 on the hand, lucky genetics I guess) just by looking at my hand as I make my moves. I'm not exactly measuring, just using what I know. Some may say that is being a bad sport, but what am I supposed to do, not look at my hand? It IS premeasuring but theres not much I can do about the length of my hand. I never ask for a 6" I just put my hand on the table as I make my move, and the reference is made just by looking at my hand. It's not like I can ignore it and I'm not about to chop it off. Forcing other people is kind of rude though. I don't just go and lay my hand on the table near their unit just for measurement purposes, then I would be a jerk, I just incedentally notice it because I can't help not to. Does it give me an unfair advantage? Maybe I suppose... but I can't play with my hand tied behind my back either.

Demanding it is the problem. Some lucky people have a foot that is a foot long too, and they can use it as a reference for range just I guess by staring at their shoes for a second. We all have some sort of reference point for ranges is what I'm saying here.

Some of you may remember when we used to actually have to GUESS for 'guess range' weapons and maybe why I'm getting defensive about this: My perfectly 6" hand span shouldn't be an advantage, but it is, and short of amputation I cannot help it. Making someone measure 12 1/2 inches with a 48" missile launcher just seems abusive and unfriendly to me.

Measuring Etiquette

CptZach — GMT

You realize measuring your hand and then putting it on the table to measure ranges is in fact premeasuring and cheating.

Just because you don't use a ruler doesn't make it ok...

Measuring Etiquette

Kilkrazy — GMT

The whole idea of not being allowed to measure ranges and having to guess it is stupid, and should be dropped, which would solve this entire argument.

Measuring Etiquette

Guitardian — GMT

CptZach wrote:You realize measuring your hand and then putting it on the table to measure ranges is in fact premeasuring and cheating.

Just because you don't use a ruler doesn't make it ok...

No it isn't cheating... it's called breaking my thumb and having it measured at a doctors office for medical reasons, dude, entirely unrelated to the game. What? am I supposed to get some sort of mind-wipe so I don't remember it? Just because you are an accusing assuming person doesn't make it okay either any more than my 'cheating' is not okay to you.

I would rather just happen to know the length of my hand and have it be okay than just happen to be a dill weed and think that's okay.

When have you played a game where your hand does not touch the table? OKAY? then shut the hell up accusing... or deny me the right to play according to your sporty rules because I broke my thumb ten years ago. By that standard, anyone who wears size twelve shoes shouldn't be allowed to play either. They're cheating? I hate playing against deaf people, and jews and such too because they have unfair advantages.... while we're at it, anybody who isn't naturally dumb should not be allowed to play because they're cheating by outwitting their opponent. Don't worry, plenty of gamers will be just fine if that rule was being enforced.

Measuring Etiquette

Black Blow Fly — GMT

Or tattoo a ruler on your arm. Or just mark it up like a ruler with a magic marker before tournaments. You can put your arm on the table to measure exact distances. Tat is better if you tend to sweat profusely with bearding it out.

G

Measuring Etiquette

Janthkin — GMT

Kilkrazy wrote:The whole idea of not being allowed to measure ranges and having to guess it is stupid, and should be dropped, which would solve this entire argument.

That'd be nice. Strangely, games like Babylon 5: CtA work just fine, in spite of allowing you to measure any distance, at any time, for any reason.

Measuring Etiquette

Guitardian — GMT

Hey you can't blame a guy for knowing what 12" looks like. Arm tat, shoe size, hand size etc, whatever. Just a non-issue. I don't abuse it, other than as an approximation in my head which is at best 'sort of' accurate, but I sure as heck wouldn't go demanding a range measurement for something clearly in/out of range, THAT is 'beardy'. Your Railhead has to measure for something 7" away, my farseer measures for his pistol at something 50" away. It's just being silly.

Measuring Etiquette

CptZach — GMT

Guitardian wrote:Hey you can't blame a guy for knowing what 12" looks like. Arm tat, shoe size, hand size etc, whatever. Just a non-issue. I don't abuse it, other than as an approximation in my head which is at best 'sort of' accurate, but I sure as heck wouldn't go demanding a range measurement for something clearly in/out of range, THAT is 'beardy'. Your Railhead has to measure for something 7" away, my farseer measures for his pistol at something 50" away. It's just being silly.

I still don't understand why you think its beardy to ask for a measurement when the rules direct you to always measure to everything. Not check range.

Using the rules to your advantage is beardy now?

Measuring Etiquette

Kilkrazy — GMT

It's beardy if you are using them to your unfair advantage.

Measuring Etiquette

Redbeard — GMT

I dunno. Maybe it's some ancient carry-over rule from Rogue Trade when they had to guess ranges in order to do anything. Guessing ranges hasn't been a mechanic since I've been playing 40k, which wasn't back in the dark ages or whatever, so I don't understand the opposition.

It's been perfectly clear in all the editions of 40k that I've played that measuring range isn't a big deal, and I'll ask for any measurement in a game that I feel I have a need to ask for, even if it is just to establish a frame of reference for something else. Anyone who makes a fuss about it is not only a poor sport, but they're also the ones breaking the rules. If you're unwilling to follow the rules and measure the range, don't take the shot.

Measuring Etiquette

Kilkrazy — GMT

To amplify on my comment, I think the whole guess before measure idea is stupid and should be dropped.

However, if it is to be played, it should be played equally by both players.

That precludes player B from forcing player A to make an unnecessary measurement which allows player B to avoid the guess he ought to make by the rules.

Anyway that's how it seems to me,

Measuring Etiquette

Guitardian — GMT

Nobody said you could look. They just said I have to measure. Rules to my advantage, not the beardy guy. Upside down tape measure would work for me if someone was trying to pull that crap on me I'd get just as rules-lawyer on him as he got on me. Hey he started it... But then again, nothing says he has to turn around or look away either. Also nothing says I have to show him the tape measure. Just have to measure it. Game, set, match as far as RAW in my opinion. Most people just don't like to play like this though.

Measuring Etiquette

Redbeard — GMT

Guitardian wrote:Nobody said you could look. They just said I have to measure. Rules to my advantage, not the beardy guy. Upside down tape measure would work for me if someone was trying to pull that crap on me I'd get just as rules-lawyer on him as he got on me. Hey he started it... But then again, nothing says he has to turn around or look away either. Also nothing says I have to show him the tape measure. Just have to measure it. Game, set, match as far as RAW in my opinion. Most people just don't like to play like this though.

You keep saying this, but it just sounds stupid. You are trying to enforce a personal prejudice that has no basis in the rules of the game with absolutely ludicrous assertions. Your opponent has a right to know the distance between any model shooting at his models and those models. Yes, that information can aide their decision making process. But it's not an unfair advantage, as you get access to the exact same information when they shoot you. Attempting to get around this by claiming you don't have to share the measurement (as if your opponent cannot use their own tape measure at this point), or paint someone who follows the rules in this way as beardy or cheesy is only revealing that you don't want to play the current edition of the game.

Measuring Etiquette

Danny Internets — GMT

Guitardian wrote:Also nothing says I have to show him the tape measure. Just have to measure it. Game, set, match as far as RAW in my opinion. Most people just don't like to play like this though.

This becomes extra fun when you apply it to rolling dice.

"Cool, I just rolled all 6's!"
"Wow, that makes nine times in a row! Mind if I take a look at the dice?"
"No, you're just going to have to trust me, bro. Rules don't say I gotta show you."

When you start ignoring even the most basic bits of common sense to the point where it potentially breaks the entire game it might be time to rethink your position.

Measuring Etiquette

CptZach — GMT

Guitardian wrote:Nobody said you could look. They just said I have to measure. Rules to my advantage, not the beardy guy. Upside down tape measure would work for me if someone was trying to pull that crap on me I'd get just as rules-lawyer on him as he got on me. Hey he started it... But then again, nothing says he has to turn around or look away either. Also nothing says I have to show him the tape measure. Just have to measure it. Game, set, match as far as RAW in my opinion. Most people just don't like to play like this though.

Ok, well I am bringing a black trash bag to cover up my models so you can't see their position on the table. I will be happy to tell you if you are in range of the ones you are shooting at.

Nothing says I have to show you where my models are placed...

Seriously, 40k is all about open knowledge. Lists, game objectives, models in transports ect. Anything on the table top is fair game for all players to know.

Btw, the cheesy/beardy argument is so stupid and not even a real argument against something. Its more like saying, I don't have a real argument so I will try and insult him or his argument to prove I am correct.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

"Cool, I just rolled all 6's!"
"Wow, that makes nine times in a row! Mind if I take a look at the dice?"
"no, remember for that one moral check I rolled double 1's?"
"oh that's right, your dice can't be loaded then.
"Yep, you're just going to have to trust me, bro. Rules don't say I gotta show you."

Fixt

Re:Measuring Etiquette

olympia — GMT

Let's be straight. You are TFG if you make me measure with broadsides when your ork battlewagon is in the middle of the table.

Measuring Etiquette

Black Blow Fly — GMT

Agreed olympia! For certain.

G

Measuring Etiquette

Guitardian — GMT

Again, nothing says I have to tell him, that is assumption that we all, in general take for granted. I normally would have no problem telling him, but there is no rules precedent written for telling what you measured (actually they never specified that you had to show dice rolls either it's just taken on assumption). If someone is going to do something as blatantly against the RAI as measuring a 6" pistol to find the range on a model 50" away, then yeah... I'll go ahead and measure it, but nowhere have I seen that I have to share that info. Like I said I wouldn't want to play in such an atmosphere in the first place, but if you can out-lawyer the rules lawyers on their technicalities I see no reason not to. They caused the problem in the first place. When someone causes a problem you counter it by being a bigger problem because they brought it up. This goes beyond warhammer and into the game of life. If someone is being abusive of rules loopholes that everyone knows were not intended, I see no problem being an even bigger jerk to put them back in their place. Yes I measured it. The end. How does that make me look stupid? Sorry Red but rules lawyers end up looking stupid, or at least looking like jerks. Calling them on it, or questioning it, as the OP was, doesn't seem stupid to me. Assumptive rules are not rules. We use them because it is necessary to play a fun game, we do not abuse wordings for petty advantage... or you never know... someone might just start hiding their dice from you.

Re:Measuring Etiquette

CptZach — GMT

olympia wrote:Let's be straight. You are TFG if you make me measure with broadsides when your ork battlewagon is in the middle of the table.

Lets be straight, anyone who thinks different from me is a jerk and their arguments hold no relevance no matter what they say. I will just ignore them and continue to repeat they are wrong because they are a jerk.

Measuring Etiquette

syanticraven — GMT

It doesnt give you a time limit per turn either.

Say I go first. Im going to bugger off for 3-7 hours. If you give in or quit then it still counts as a win to me.

hiding your stuff is reason for doubt and will be cause no one to believe you without showing.

I always look at my opponents dice when he rolls. If he hides them and declares he even got 1 hit out of 100 He will have to prove it or count it as missed.

Re:Measuring Etiquette

Redbeard — GMT

olympia wrote:Let's be straight. You are TFG if you make me measure with broadsides when your ork battlewagon is in the middle of the table.

Not at all. There are all manner of reasons that I might want to know the distance between the broadsides and the wagon. The rules indicate that you must measure. If you refuse, you're a cheat. If you don't want me to know that measurement, don't take the shot.

And, as the earlier poster said, calling someone TFG only means you have no real argument. Calling someone names because they want to follow the rules in order to gain information that they have a right to know isn't exactly stand-up-guy behaviour...

Whatever. It's obvious that some of you don't like the rules of the game. No amount of rational discussion is going to change your minds. The rules are clear on what's legal, and anything else is just your preference. If it comes up in a tournament, the judges will side with the rules. I'm unsubscribed from this thread.

Measuring Etiquette

Guitardian — GMT

Show me the rule that says I have to show you the measurement and I shall concede. All I see is that I have to measure it.

Measuring Etiquette

Frazzled — GMT

Guitardian wrote:
CptZach wrote:You realize measuring your hand and then putting it on the table to measure ranges is in fact premeasuring and cheating.

Just because you don't use a ruler doesn't make it ok...

No it isn't cheating... it's called breaking my thumb and having it measured at a doctors office for medical reasons, dude, entirely unrelated to the game. What? am I supposed to get some sort of mind-wipe so I don't remember it? Just because you are an accusing assuming person doesn't make it okay either any more than my 'cheating' is not okay to you.

I would rather just happen to know the length of my hand and have it be okay than just happen to be a dill weed and think that's okay.

When have you played a game where your hand does not touch the table? OKAY? then shut the hell up accusing... or deny me the right to play according to your sporty rules because I broke my thumb ten years ago. By that standard, anyone who wears size twelve shoes shouldn't be allowed to play either. They're cheating? I hate playing against deaf people, and jews and such too because they have unfair advantages.... while we're at it, anybody who isn't naturally dumb should not be allowed to play because they're cheating by outwitting their opponent. Don't worry, plenty of gamers will be just fine if that rule was being enforced.

our Dakka guitar hero is right. Further any carpenter or old school IG player can guess within an inch. I used to throw dice on the floor, guess the distances and use a tape measure to confirm just like I'd practice putting.

Measuring Etiquette

pretre — GMT

Guitardian wrote:Show me the rule that says I have to show you the measurement and I shall concede. All I see is that I have to measure it.

Show the rule that says I have to show you my dice when I roll them.

The ruleset does not cover every eventuality. It does tell you the things you specifically have to do, however. The rest it assumes people know. Things like measuring and rolling dice are considered fundamental parts of the game.

Measuring Etiquette

puma713 — GMT

syanticraven wrote:

I always look at my opponents dice when he rolls. If he hides them and declares he even got 1 hit out of 100 He will have to prove it or count it as missed.

Where is that rule? What page?

Tell you what, you pre-measure all you want and I'll hide my dice from you and tell you what I rolled, and we'll call it square. After all, they're both legal.

Measuring Etiquette

pretre — GMT

puma713 wrote:
syanticraven wrote:

I always look at my opponents dice when he rolls. If he hides them and declares he even got 1 hit out of 100 He will have to prove it or count it as missed.

Where is that rule? What page?

Tell you what, you pre-measure all you want and I'll hide my dice from you and tell you what I rolled, and we'll call it square. After all, they're both legal.

qft

Re:Measuring Etiquette

olympia — GMT

TFG follows the rules! Indeed, that is what TFG is all about: RAW to the core. If a battlewagon is in the middle of the table the maximum distance the broadside could be from the wagon is about 3' 7". Railguns have a 6' range! So if in this hypothetical situation you demand measurement you are a] Thick b] TFG (passive aggressive, slowing playing etc.).

Re:Measuring Etiquette

puma713 — GMT

olympia wrote:TFG follows the rules! Indeed, that is what TFG is all about: RAW to the core. If a battlewagon is in the middle of the table the maximum distance the broadside could be from the wagon is about 3' 7". Railguns have a 6' range! So if in this hypothetical situation you demand measurement you are a] Thick b] TFG (passive aggressive, slowing playing etc.).

I agree. I just think that there are a few people in these. . what. . four threads about measurement now? - that are finding out that they may just be TFG and they're not happy about it. Even Dash (the person that really got all this started) conceded that he will not use this tactic again and didn't think of it as a foul move until he heard all the retrospect.

As an aside: it's a funny thing too, Olympia when the "RAW to the core" players field their units, they don't always follow all the RAW rules to the core (as in, everything listed in the RAW FUN thread) - they pick and choose the ones that benefit them and then fight for those tooth and nail.

Re:Measuring Etiquette

pretre — GMT

olympia wrote:TFG follows the rules! Indeed, that is what TFG is all about: RAW to the core. If a battlewagon is in the middle of the table the maximum distance the broadside could be from the wagon is about 3' 7". Railguns have a 6' range! So if in this hypothetical situation you demand measurement you are a] Thick b] TFG (passive aggressive, slowing playing etc.).

What's the cutoff point? Am I TFG if I ask you to measure when my BW is 2/3 of the way across the table? 3/4? 7/8? Where is the magical point at which I stop being a jerk for asking you to do something completely legal like measure a shot?

Which is in fact required by the RAW.

BRB Pg15 wrote:
1) Check LOS & Pick Target
2) Check Range
3) Roll to Hit

BRB pg17 wrote:
When you're checking range, simply measure from each firer to the nearest visible model in the target unit.

Wow I am a TFG for asking that.

Re:Measuring Etiquette

puma713 — GMT

pretre wrote:
olympia wrote:TFG follows the rules! Indeed, that is what TFG is all about: RAW to the core. If a battlewagon is in the middle of the table the maximum distance the broadside could be from the wagon is about 3' 7". Railguns have a 6' range! So if in this hypothetical situation you demand measurement you are a] Thick b] TFG (passive aggressive, slowing playing etc.).

What's the cutoff point? Am I TFG if I ask you to measure when my BW is 2/3 of the way across the table? 3/4? 7/8? Where is the magical point at which I stop being a jerk for asking you to do something completely legal like measure a shot?

Which is in fact required by the RAW.

BRB Pg15 wrote:
1) Check LOS & Pick Target
2) Check Range
3) Roll to Hit

I'm not so sure about the railgun issue. I mean, if the battlewagon is obviously in range, I don't mind measuring from my gun to the BW. I do it often. What I think is shady is measuring a 12" bolter all the way across the field, then using that information to find out things that have nothing to do with shooting.

Thing is, rules-wise, there's no difference.

Measuring Etiquette

syanticraven — GMT

puma713 wrote:
syanticraven wrote:

I always look at my opponents dice when he rolls. If he hides them and declares he even got 1 hit out of 100 He will have to prove it or count it as missed.

Where is that rule? What page?

Tell you what, you pre-measure all you want and I'll hide my dice from you and tell you what I rolled, and we'll call it square. After all, they're both legal.

Thank you automatically assume my argument against hiding dice rolls means that I am in favour of pre measuring. There is a difference between a discussion and twisting someones words to suit your argument.
I was merely stating that if the player hides their dice I will refuse to believe the player.

Measuring Etiquette

Wildeyedjester — GMT

The rules state that you must measure range - It makes no reference to ignore doing so if a 'target is clearly within range'. If your opponent was attentive and asked you to measure the range then you should have. If anything, I think the sportsmanship of the thread's author should have been docked for his refusal to measure.

Measuring Etiquette

Black Blow Fly — GMT

Preach on Olympia! Preach on. Your words will not go unheeded.

G

Measuring Etiquette

puma713 — GMT

syanticraven wrote:
puma713 wrote:
syanticraven wrote:

I always look at my opponents dice when he rolls. If he hides them and declares he even got 1 hit out of 100 He will have to prove it or count it as missed.

Where is that rule? What page?

Tell you what, you pre-measure all you want and I'll hide my dice from you and tell you what I rolled, and we'll call it square. After all, they're both legal.

Thank you automatically assume my argument against hiding dice rolls means that I am in favour of pre measuring. There is a difference between a discussion and twisting someones words to suit your argument.
I was merely stating that if the player hides their dice I will refuse to believe the player.

You may not be "in favour" of it, but you certainly don't mind it - that is evident from your posts in the other measurement threads. And since (for some) it is equally as shady as me not showing you my dice, then you shouldn't have a problem with it. But you do. Starting to see where the other side is coming from with the pre-measurement stance? It's not about the legality, but about sportsmanship.

Measuring Etiquette

pretre — GMT

Black Blow Fly wrote:Preach on Olympia! Preach on. Your words will not go unheeded.

G

Good, I think the sarcasm didn't get through the first time.

Re:Measuring Etiquette

olympia — GMT

Let's juxtopose some quotes:

olympia wrote:TFG follows the rules! Indeed, that is what TFG is all about: RAW to the core.

pretre wrote:
What's the cutoff point? Am I TFG if I ask you to measure when my BW is 2/3 of the way across the table? 3/4? 7/8? Where is the magical point at which I stop being a jerk for asking you to do something completely legal like measure a shot?

Which is in fact required by the RAW.

Wildeyedjester wrote:The rules state that you must measure range/

Ironic that the two proximate responses go straight to RAW isn't it? And this in a thread about etiquette.

Measuring Etiquette

syanticraven — GMT

puma713 wrote:
syanticraven wrote:
puma713 wrote:
syanticraven wrote:

I always look at my opponents dice when he rolls. If he hides them and declares he even got 1 hit out of 100 He will have to prove it or count it as missed.

Where is that rule? What page?

Tell you what, you pre-measure all you want and I'll hide my dice from you and tell you what I rolled, and we'll call it square. After all, they're both legal.

Thank you automatically assume my argument against hiding dice rolls means that I am in favour of pre measuring. There is a difference between a discussion and twisting someones words to suit your argument.
I was merely stating that if the player hides their dice I will refuse to believe the player.

You may not be "in favour" of it, but you certainly don't mind it - that is evident from your posts in the other measurement threads. And since (for some) it is equally as shady as me not showing you my dice, then you shouldn't have a problem with it. But you do. Starting to see where the other side is coming from with the pre-measurement stance? It's not about the legality, but about sportsmanship.

It doens't matter if I mind it or not. What mattered is that in a discussion you took my words, twisted to what you wanted to hear, and then stated them as that. That is bad manners and also a disrespectful way to act in an argument.

And In other threads I only stated it is Legal, and that it wouldn't bother me if my opponent done it. I never said It wasnt shady or it was, you took that yourself.
I'm confident that them doing that isnt what cost me the game.

However hiding the dice is slightly different. One situation is the opening up of information to both players - both can see the info and rule it; the other is withholding information not allowing the second player to see and their-fore not being able to rule upon it.

Re:Measuring Etiquette

pretre — GMT

olympia wrote:Ironic that the two proximate responses go straight to RAW isn't it? And this in a thread about etiquette.

Okay, let's go back to the etiquette part of my question:

What's the cutoff point? Am I TFG if I ask you to measure when my BW is 2/3 of the way across the table? 3/4? 7/8? Where is the magical point at which I stop being a jerk?

Measuring Etiquette

puma713 — GMT

syanticraven wrote:
puma713 wrote:

You may not be "in favour" of it, but you certainly don't mind it - that is evident from your posts in the other measurement threads. And since (for some) it is equally as shady as me not showing you my dice, then you shouldn't have a problem with it. But you do. Starting to see where the other side is coming from with the pre-measurement stance? It's not about the legality, but about sportsmanship.
#

And In other threads I only stated it is Legal, and that it wouldn't bother me if my opponent done it. I never said It wasnt shady or it was, you took that yourself.
I'm confident that them doing that isnt what cost me the game.

You're right. You didn't say anything about it being shady or not, simply the legality of it. I apologize for assuming. However, we're now talking about the "etiquette" of the move, not the legality of it. Most people agree that it's legal. More didn't like the move at all.

Just like me hiding my dice from you. I'm entitled to. It's legal. You don't like it though because of the "etiquette" of the game. We're talking about the same thing here, just two different situations are in place to illustrate it.

Measuring Etiquette

syanticraven — GMT

puma713 wrote:
syanticraven wrote:
puma713 wrote:

You may not be "in favour" of it, but you certainly don't mind it - that is evident from your posts in the other measurement threads. And since (for some) it is equally as shady as me not showing you my dice, then you shouldn't have a problem with it. But you do. Starting to see where the other side is coming from with the pre-measurement stance? It's not about the legality, but about sportsmanship.
#

And In other threads I only stated it is Legal, and that it wouldn't bother me if my opponent done it. I never said It wasnt shady or it was, you took that yourself.
I'm confident that them doing that isnt what cost me the game.

You're right. You didn't say anything about it being shady or not, simply the legality of it. I apologize for assuming. However, we're now talking about the "etiquette" of the move, not the legality of it. Most people agree that it's legal. More didn't like the move at all.

Just like me hiding my dice from you. I'm entitled to. It's legal. You don't like it though because of the "etiquette" of the game. We're talking about the same thing here, just two different situations are in place to illustrate it.

I know but if you look further into the thread I did say that if they request a measurement for their personal gain then it is within your right to measure as quickly as possible (in a legal manner) to show you they are in range but fast enough that they do not get any real information. As it is legal to do this. (some may also argue this is unsportsmanlike.)

I was also then making my point on the dice rolling thing.

Measuring Etiquette

Arschbombe — GMT

CptZach wrote:
Ok, well I am bringing a black trash bag to cover up my models so you can't see their position on the table. I will be happy to tell you if you are in range of the ones you are shooting at.

Nothing says I have to show you where my models are placed...

Awesome. Let's play 40k Battleship!

"I'm going to shoot my long fangs 26" in this direction."

"Hit!"

Measuring Etiquette

Sanctjud — GMT

So... the opponent gets to place your infiltrators and you get to kill your own guys...?

"You sunk your own Chimera."!!

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Seriously:

Generally the game is played with:
-Open Lists.
-Open Rules
-Transparent Deployment.
-Transparent Transports.

Measuring ranges and letting everybody know causes the least disturbance and goes along with the Open/Transparent aspect of the game.

Sure, it sucks ballz if you screw up and are too close... but that's all your fault and not the opponents'.

You only have yourself to blame.

Re:Measuring Etiquette

TopC — GMT

WOAH PEOPLE!!!!

How bout this for an argument.

What is the purpose of measuring in the shooting phase?
TO DETERMINE IF THE WEAPON IS IN RANGE TO BE FIRED? Yes?
Tape to max distance, Yup your troops fall in that range. Oh you wanna know how many inches? My range is 48'' its less than that. the end You wanna determine how far away i am during your turn shooting by all means go for it.

Measuring Etiquette

skyth — GMT

I love how all the anti-measuring responses just go off bullying the other side and calling them names.

This is NOT a case of rules-lawyering. The rules are perfectly clear in the matter.

The fact is, if you refuse to measure, YOU are the one being unsportsmanlike.

Measuring Etiquette

frgsinwntr — GMT

skyth wrote:I love how all the anti-measuring responses just go off bullying the other side and calling them names.

This is NOT a case of rules-lawyering. The rules are perfectly clear in the matter.

The fact is, if you refuse to measure, YOU are the one being unsportsmanlike.

qft

Measuring Etiquette

Guitardian — GMT

skyth wrote:I love how all the anti-measuring responses just go off bullying the other side and calling them names.

This is NOT a case of rules-lawyering. The rules are perfectly clear in the matter.

The fact is, if you refuse to measure, YOU are the one being unsportsmanlike.

OTT stream of bile and hyperbole removed.

Measuring Etiquette

Regwon — GMT

Guitardian wrote:
Another possible perspective is to think that range gets measured before every shot, from every single lasgun in the Guard horde. That'd be fun wouldn't it?

And yet, those are the rules...

Measuring Etiquette

TopC — GMT

Regwon wrote:
Guitardian wrote:
Another possible perspective is to think that range gets measured before every shot, from every single lasgun in the Guard horde. That'd be fun wouldn't it?

And yet, those are the rules...

and if someone measured every single las gun instead of just being an intelligent human being and measuring the ones furthest away and then saying yep the rest are in range. id say you were stalling and being TFG

Measuring Etiquette

WARBOSS TZOO — GMT

Guitardian wrote:that makes YOU the douchebag for forcing the little rule, not me the douche for calling you on it.

What makes you the douchebag is the passive aggressive gak that you're pulling in response to being asked to make a single measurement.

Measuring Etiquette

puma713 — GMT

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:
Guitardian wrote:that makes YOU the douchebag for forcing the little rule, not me the douche for calling you on it.

What makes you the douchebag is the passive aggressive gak that you're pulling in response to being asked to make a single measurement.

And then we get back to the "intent" argument.

Measuring Etiquette

darkdm — GMT

If I recall correctly, the OP said he was at an event. At an event, no matter how much fun it is, you are there to play and to play well. You will (or at least should) try to use every advantage you can if you’re trying to do well. Including asking someone to measure something that is obviously in range. To echo Redbeard, as long as it is in the rules, and not a stretch of them, your opponent shouldn’t be bothered by it because he has access to the exact same tools you do. If you really think it’s that big of a deal, you should call over the TO or whoever is in charge and ask. But even if the TO rules against measuring range for something within obvious range, you are both denied that tool and therefore you have both lost that advantage. The rule is not unlike a double edged sword.

Also, Frazzeled is right:

Frazzled wrote:
Further any carpenter or old school IG player can guess within an inch. I used to throw dice on the floor, guess the distances and use a tape measure to confirm just like I'd practice putting.

Back when I did play WHFB, I did a lot of guessing with cannons and got darn good it. After playing for long enough, or doing the same thing over and over again with a specified distance, yes, you start to be able to very accurately judge distances. It doesn’t mean the experienced players are cheating for being able to guess to the smallest increments the distance between units. And so it doesn’t make it cheating to be able to get a good look at a distance when you’re opponent is already (supposed to be) measuring.

To say that the guy who asked you to measure while you were at an event is TFG is silly. You and him are both there to compete whilst having fun. He’s not breaking the rules, let alone bending them, and he’s not being a jerk about it. If someone refuses to measure after being asked to measure, even something as silly as a broadside firing at a target 12’’ away, they should be the one looking at themselves.

Now outside of an event, you and your opponent can work it out, because that’s purely for your own enjoyment, but that’s not what this is about. Etiquette is about being polite. If your opponent asks something of you that’s part of the rules, you should do it. And they should return the favor when the situation has changed.

Measuring Etiquette

Danny Internets — GMT

Do people really not understand that strict RAW adherence is the only way to ensure a fair game? This goes to the heart of good sportsmanship. Redbeard put it succinctly when he commented that an honest game (a level playing field) is one where everyone plays by the same rules, the rules as they are written, rather than some new rules that you invented and insist on enforcing despite having no legitimate claim to do so. I would think that etiquette is primarily concerned with good sportsmanship, no? And good sportsmanship is concerned with fair play? How can you possibly expect a fair match when you're inventing your own rules as you go along and masquerading them as "etiquette"?

Does asking your opponent to measure range from his Broadsides convey an advantage to you? Of course. And good on you for being an intelligent player and figuring out how to best use the rules of the game to satisfy the victory conditions of said game.

This might be news to some, but this is a game of abstract rules and those who best understand the rules have the best shot at winning the game. Why are TH/SS Assault Terminators so awesome? Because their rules, what they can do and how much they cost to do it, are fantastic relative to other units. Many people recognize this and therefore you see lots of these models being fielded. Is taking advantage of their rules poor etiquette as well? Such a claim sounds ridiculous because it is exactly that.

It's a game of rules. Being good at the game is being good at using the rules to your advantage. This goes for every single game in existence. Playing by the rules is not poor etiquette.

Measuring Etiquette

puma713 — GMT

Danny Internets wrote:Do people really not understand that strict RAW adherence is the only way to ensure a fair game? This goes to the heart of good sportsmanship. Redbeard put it succinctly when he commented that an honest game (a level playing field) is one where everyone plays by the same rules, the rules as they are written, rather than some new rules that you invented and insist on enforcing despite having no legitimate claim to do so.

So, why do people insist on playing by the RAW that they see is sufficient enough for them? Do those same players play by all the rules in the RAW FUN thread? Because if they don't, they're picking and choosing which RAW they like to play by. If they're going to fight tooth and nail about the measuring RAW, then they sure as hell better fight tooth and nail that the Doom of Malantai they're fielding isn't a Zoanthrope and therefore has no Warp Field, as it refers to Zoanthropes.

Measuring Etiquette

WARBOSS TZOO — GMT

puma713 wrote:
Danny Internets wrote:Do people really not understand that strict RAW adherence is the only way to ensure a fair game? This goes to the heart of good sportsmanship. Redbeard put it succinctly when he commented that an honest game (a level playing field) is one where everyone plays by the same rules, the rules as they are written, rather than some new rules that you invented and insist on enforcing despite having no legitimate claim to do so.

So, why do people insist on playing by the RAW that they see is sufficient enough for them? Do those same players play by all the rules in the RAW FUN thread? Because if they don't, they're picking and choosing which RAW they like to play by. If they're going to fight tooth and nail about the measuring RAW, then they sure as hell better fight tooth and nail that the Doom of Malantai they're fielding isn't a Zoanthrope and therefore has no Warp Field, as it refers to Zoanthropes.

Why should we, other than you want us to so as to validate your argument? If there's no disagreement on how to play the game, then there's no need to bring up RAW. If there is disagreement, then bring up RAW. If someone wants to argue that DoM doesn't get warp field and we disagree, then I'm going to call over the TO to see what they have to say on it. If they want to call over the TO on measurement, they're free to do so.

Measuring Etiquette

TopC — GMT

puma713 wrote:
Danny Internets wrote:Do people really not understand that strict RAW adherence is the only way to ensure a fair game? This goes to the heart of good sportsmanship. Redbeard put it succinctly when he commented that an honest game (a level playing field) is one where everyone plays by the same rules, the rules as they are written, rather than some new rules that you invented and insist on enforcing despite having no legitimate claim to do so.

So, why do people insist on playing by the RAW that they see is sufficient enough for them? Do those same players play by all the rules in the RAW FUN thread? Because if they don't, they're picking and choosing which RAW they like to play by. If they're going to fight tooth and nail about the measuring RAW, then they sure as hell better fight tooth and nail that the Doom of Malantai they're fielding isn't a Zoanthrope and therefore has no Warp Field, as it refers to Zoanthropes.

*cough* or my favorite... 5 piranha strong squad all with flech...*cough*

Measuring Etiquette

puma713 — GMT

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:
puma713 wrote:
Danny Internets wrote:Do people really not understand that strict RAW adherence is the only way to ensure a fair game? This goes to the heart of good sportsmanship. Redbeard put it succinctly when he commented that an honest game (a level playing field) is one where everyone plays by the same rules, the rules as they are written, rather than some new rules that you invented and insist on enforcing despite having no legitimate claim to do so.

So, why do people insist on playing by the RAW that they see is sufficient enough for them? Do those same players play by all the rules in the RAW FUN thread? Because if they don't, they're picking and choosing which RAW they like to play by. If they're going to fight tooth and nail about the measuring RAW, then they sure as hell better fight tooth and nail that the Doom of Malantai they're fielding isn't a Zoanthrope and therefore has no Warp Field, as it refers to Zoanthropes.

Why should we, other than you want us to so as to validate your argument? If there's no disagreement on how to play the game, then there's no need to bring up RAW. If there is disagreement, then bring up RAW. If someone wants to argue that DoM doesn't get warp field and we disagree, then I'm going to call over the TO to see what they have to say on it. If they want to call over the TO on measurement, they're free to do so.

Then that is the double standard. You're choosing which RAW you like and which one you don't. That's not the RAW purity that Danny Internets was referring to (at least as I understood it). That's pushing RAW to whatever advantage you can and then, when someone else does the same thing, you call over the TO because now you don't agree with the RAW. Why is your RAW better than my RAW? Remember, it's the same thing. Now, we get into interpretation again. RAW is supposed to be devoid of interpretation, but Rules As Written.

Measuring Etiquette

WARBOSS TZOO — GMT

puma713 wrote:
WARBOSS TZOO wrote:
puma713 wrote:
Danny Internets wrote:Do people really not understand that strict RAW adherence is the only way to ensure a fair game? This goes to the heart of good sportsmanship. Redbeard put it succinctly when he commented that an honest game (a level playing field) is one where everyone plays by the same rules, the rules as they are written, rather than some new rules that you invented and insist on enforcing despite having no legitimate claim to do so.

So, why do people insist on playing by the RAW that they see is sufficient enough for them? Do those same players play by all the rules in the RAW FUN thread? Because if they don't, they're picking and choosing which RAW they like to play by. If they're going to fight tooth and nail about the measuring RAW, then they sure as hell better fight tooth and nail that the Doom of Malantai they're fielding isn't a Zoanthrope and therefore has no Warp Field, as it refers to Zoanthropes.

Why should we, other than you want us to so as to validate your argument? If there's no disagreement on how to play the game, then there's no need to bring up RAW. If there is disagreement, then bring up RAW. If someone wants to argue that DoM doesn't get warp field and we disagree, then I'm going to call over the TO to see what they have to say on it. If they want to call over the TO on measurement, they're free to do so.

Then that is the double standard. You're choosing which RAW you like and which one you don't. That's not the RAW purity that Danny Internets was referring to (at least as I understood it). That's pushing RAW to whatever advantage you can and then, when someone else does the same thing, you call over the TO because now you don't agree with the RAW. Why is your RAW better than my RAW? Remember, it's the same thing. Now, we get into interpretation again. RAW is supposed to be devoid of interpretation, but Rules As Written.

Ah, you're arguing against something that I'm not advocating. The intent of the measuring RAW in this instance is clear. The intent of the Warp Field RAW is not clear if it does not explicitly refer to DoM, or if DoM does not explicitly have that option, but it is implicit. Further, wanting to make use of one rule does not mean that you want to make use of them all.

On the other hand, if my opponent brings it up I won't bitch and whine like a little child; I'll either quit the game because they're not worth playing against or I'll call over the TO and have them rule on it or I'll keep playing because it doesn't bother me to play that way.

And what I don't agree with is their interpretation of RAW, not the RAW itself.

Measuring Etiquette

puma713 — GMT

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:
puma713 wrote:
WARBOSS TZOO wrote:
puma713 wrote:
Danny Internets wrote:Do people really not understand that strict RAW adherence is the only way to ensure a fair game? This goes to the heart of good sportsmanship. Redbeard put it succinctly when he commented that an honest game (a level playing field) is one where everyone plays by the same rules, the rules as they are written, rather than some new rules that you invented and insist on enforcing despite having no legitimate claim to do so.

So, why do people insist on playing by the RAW that they see is sufficient enough for them? Do those same players play by all the rules in the RAW FUN thread? Because if they don't, they're picking and choosing which RAW they like to play by. If they're going to fight tooth and nail about the measuring RAW, then they sure as hell better fight tooth and nail that the Doom of Malantai they're fielding isn't a Zoanthrope and therefore has no Warp Field, as it refers to Zoanthropes.

Why should we, other than you want us to so as to validate your argument? If there's no disagreement on how to play the game, then there's no need to bring up RAW. If there is disagreement, then bring up RAW. If someone wants to argue that DoM doesn't get warp field and we disagree, then I'm going to call over the TO to see what they have to say on it. If they want to call over the TO on measurement, they're free to do so.

Then that is the double standard. You're choosing which RAW you like and which one you don't. That's not the RAW purity that Danny Internets was referring to (at least as I understood it). That's pushing RAW to whatever advantage you can and then, when someone else does the same thing, you call over the TO because now you don't agree with the RAW. Why is your RAW better than my RAW? Remember, it's the same thing. Now, we get into interpretation again. RAW is supposed to be devoid of interpretation, but Rules As Written.

Ah, you're arguing against something that I'm not advocating. The intent of the measuring RAW in this instance is clear. The intent of the Warp Field RAW is not clear if it does not explicitly refer to DoM, or if DoM does not explicitly have that option, but it is implicit. Further, wanting to make use of one rule does not mean that you want to make use of them all.

But you don't get one and not get them all. You can't pick and choose which rules you like and which ones you don't. And there are no "implicits" in RAW, remember? That's the whole purity of it. If the rules say something, the rules say it and there's no other way to take it.

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:And what I don't agree with is their interpretation of RAW, not the RAW itself.

Again, there are no "interpretations" of RAW. My Tyranid codex doesn't say that the Doom of Malantai is a zoanthrope. Neither does yours. There's nothing to interpret. If you're getting into interpretations, you're getting into RAI and that's where we start talking about intent. Like, the intention to measure something illegally while using a legal rule to do it.

Measuring Etiquette

Guitardian — GMT

Again, interpretation, and when someone shows me the rules that say I have to show you my measurement, rather than the assumption we all play by, I would be happy to do so. Until then my assumption of obvious range is just as legit as my opponent's assumption that he can see my measurement.

Measuring Etiquette

WARBOSS TZOO — GMT

puma713 wrote:But you don't get one and not get them all. You can't pick and choose which rules you like and which ones you don't.

But we can pick and choose which rules we agree on and which rules we don't.

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:And what I don't agree with is their interpretation of RAW, not the RAW itself.

Again, there are no "interpretations" of RAW. My Tyranid codex doesn't say that the Doom of Malantai is a zoanthrope. Neither does yours. There's nothing to interpret. If you're getting into interpretations, you're getting into RAI and that's where we start talking about intent. Like, the intention to measure something illegally while using a legal rule to do it.

No. What I mean here is things like "The rules don't say that I have to show you my measurement." It's implied that if you measure something, both players know what the measurement is, but there is a literal interpretation available which says that this isn't true.

Guitardian wrote:Again, interpretation, and when someone shows me the rules that say I have to show you my measurement, rather than the assumption we all play by, I would be happy to do so. Until then my assumption of obvious range is just as legit as my opponent's assumption that he can see my measurement.

Your assumption of obvious range has nothing to substantiate it under RAW. EDIT: In fact, it's contradicted. Your opponent's assumption that he can see your measurement is common-sense and implied by the context of the rule (that it's in a wargame with no third party to arbitrate).

Measuring Etiquette

Kilkrazy — GMT

How do people resolve the dichotomy that showing both players the precise result of a measurement allows player two to pre-measure, which is specifically against the rules?

Measuring Etiquette

WARBOSS TZOO — GMT

Kilkrazy wrote:How do people resolve the dichotomy that showing both players the precise result of a measurement allows player two to pre-measure, which is specifically against the rules?

By defining pre-measurement. If I'm good at judging distances, I can pre-measure whatever I like without the use of a ruler, and this is allowed by the rules of the game. But using a legal measurement to supplement that judgement is illegal?

That's insane, and it means that a better definition of pre-measurement is needed.

But even if we ignore this completely, showing both players the precise result of the measurement allows both players to know what can be gained from the measurement, rather than just player one, who has exactly the same ability to pre-measure that player two does.

Measuring Etiquette

puma713 — GMT

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:How do people resolve the dichotomy that showing both players the precise result of a measurement allows player two to pre-measure, which is specifically against the rules?

By defining pre-measurement. If I'm good at judging distances, I can pre-measure whatever I like without the use of a ruler, and this is allowed by the rules of the game. But using a legal measurement to supplement that judgement is illegal?

That's insane, and it means that a better definition of pre-measurement is needed.

CatPeeler wrote:In actual play, precise measurement for movement and/or range typically only comes up when at the hard limit (i.e., is that unit 6" away, or 6-1/16" away? Is that rhino 47" away from my ML, or 49" away?). What I see the vast majority of the time is this:

1) Player extends tape measure to the limit of the unit's move or weapon range.
2a) If moving, player either moves the unit to the end of the tape or places a finger at the end of the tape before moving the unit to that spot.
2b) If shooting, player extends the tape towards the target unit. If the end of the tape reaches the unit, dice hit the table.

As outlined above, the moving/shooting player doesn't typically determine the range to an exact degree (other than the hard limit of the end of the tape measure). As an example, when shooting an assault cannon at a land speeder, I don't take the time to find out that it is 21-3/8" away; I just make a quick check to see if it's as close or closer to me than the end of the tape.

As I mentioned in the actual batrep thread, the correct/legal way for dash to do what he did would be:

1) Extend the tape 24", rotate it around the raider to determine it's movement range
2) Estimate that the enemy unit was about 19" away.
3) Deduce the amount of his own movement needed to avoid an assault

Part 2 is the whole key to the issue, as far as I'm concerned. By taking the time to determine the exact distance between the raider and the BW, Dash took a measurement that was unrelated to his own movement. Obviously, there are any number of situations where making one measurement will also give you some information about another measurement. To a degree, this is unavoidable. So long as you restrict yourself to estimation and deduction--you are in the clear. On the other hand, if you take unnecessarily precise measurements for reasons unrelated to what you are ostensibly measuring, then you are breaking the rules.

This, I believe, is RAW. The rules say you are allowed to premeasure X. INTENTIONALLY measuring X+Y, regardless of the manner in which you do it, is not in keeping with the rules.

CatPeeler wrote:
Che-Vito wrote:(3) If I know that by measuring my shooting/movement to you, it is 24", then I also know that it is 24" from your unit to mine. I have thus gleaned obvious information, in a legal manner.

That depends on the manner in which you measure.

Say you are shooting an assault cannon. You extend the tape 24", put the spool of the tape at the end of the weapon, and see if the target is as close or closer than the end of the tape.

Perfectly legal, and whether the target is in range or not can be determined in... oh... a tenth of a second.

On the other hand, if you lay the tape between target and firer and then take a second or two to determine that the exact range between the two is 11-7/8"--which, 'coincidentally' tells you whether or not the target is within melta range for your 2nd, adjacent firing unit--I would argue that you are clearly taking a measurement which you are not entitled to take.

Measuring Etiquette

skyth — GMT

Is pre-measuring actually against the rules, or is it not permitted by the rules?

And there is no Dichotomy. You can't measure something unless you are allowed to by the rules. Shooting at something requires you to measure to it. It is an increadibly bad show of sportsmanship to not measure to something you are firing at when asked, I don't care what the range is.

Measuring Etiquette

WARBOSS TZOO — GMT

puma713 wrote:-snip-

You are required to measure the distance between X and Y when shooting at Y from X. If you don't know the distance between X and Y, you didn't measure the distance between them. If you did measure the distance between them, then you can extrapolate from that without having to have the tape measure there.

You haven't stopped pre-measurement with that. You also haven't solved the problem of the guy who's really good at being able to judge distances.

Measuring Etiquette

puma713 — GMT

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:
puma713 wrote:-snip-

You are required to measure the distance between X and Y when shooting at Y from X. If you don't know the distance between X and Y, you didn't measure the distance between them. If you did measure the distance between them, then you can extrapolate from that without having to have the tape measure there.

You haven't stopped pre-measurement with that. You also haven't solved the problem of the guy who's really good at being able to judge distances.

Those quotes were talking about movement, not shooting. And more power to the guy who's really good at being able to judge distances. That's what players are supposed to be doing - judging distances. Not laying down tape measures and taking down information that they're not supposed to be taking down, like an opponent's movement and charge range.

Measuring Etiquette

WARBOSS TZOO — GMT

puma713 wrote:
WARBOSS TZOO wrote:
puma713 wrote:-snip-

You are required to measure the distance between X and Y when shooting at Y from X. If you don't know the distance between X and Y, you didn't measure the distance between them. If you did measure the distance between them, then you can extrapolate from that without having to have the tape measure there.

You haven't stopped pre-measurement with that. You also haven't solved the problem of the guy who's really good at being able to judge distances.

Those quotes were talking about movement, not shooting.

"Say you are shooting an assault cannon."

And more power to the guy who's really good at being able to judge distances. That's what players are supposed to be doing - judging distances. Not laying down tape measures and taking down information that they're not supposed to be taking down, like an opponent's movement and charge range.

Here's the thing: the vast, vast, vast majority of the time, you can't actually tell whether or not that's going on.

Measuring Etiquette

puma713 — GMT

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:
puma713 wrote:
WARBOSS TZOO wrote:
puma713 wrote:-snip-

You are required to measure the distance between X and Y when shooting at Y from X. If you don't know the distance between X and Y, you didn't measure the distance between them. If you did measure the distance between them, then you can extrapolate from that without having to have the tape measure there.

You haven't stopped pre-measurement with that. You also haven't solved the problem of the guy who's really good at being able to judge distances.

Those quotes were talking about movement, not shooting.

"Say you are shooting an assault cannon."

Ah yeah, there was that hypothetical. The quotes were in reference to the movement pre-measurement thread though, just like this thread.

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:
puma713 wrote:And more power to the guy who's really good at being able to judge distances. That's what players are supposed to be doing - judging distances. Not laying down tape measures and taking down information that they're not supposed to be taking down, like an opponent's movement and charge range.

Here's the thing: the vast, vast, vast majority of the time, you can't actually tell whether or not that's going on.

However, in the case that all these threads are talking about, Dash made it abundantly clear.

Measuring Etiquette

skyth — GMT

When you fire weapons, you don't 'judge' the distance, you outright measure the distance to the target.

Measuring Etiquette

Kilkrazy — GMT

skyth wrote:Is pre-measuring actually against the rules, or is it not permitted by the rules?

Yes, it's against the rules when shooting or charging

skyth wrote:And there is no Dichotomy. You can't measure something unless you are allowed to by the rules. Shooting at something requires you to measure to it. It is an increadibly bad show of sportsmanship to not measure to something you are firing at when asked, I don't care what the range is.

The rules allow you to measure anything you like except when deciding whether to shoot or charge.

Is it an incredible show of bad sportsmanship to require someone to measure the distance when it clearly isn't necessary, and you are only doing it to find out if your unit will be in charge range, which you are forbidden to pre-measure?

I say yes. I assume you would say no, so I think we shall just have to politely disagree.

If people think this is a major issue at tournaments I would suggest they take it up with the TO before the competition starts.

I think some people are losing sight of the point that the rules are not an end in themselves. They are a means to the end of having an enjoyable game. We don't play the game simply to follow the rules, at least I don't.

Measuring Etiquette

puma713 — GMT

skyth wrote:When you fire weapons, you don't 'judge' the distance, you outright measure the distance to the target.

Really? You don't guess that a unit is 48" away when you say you're firing a lascannon at it and then measure and find it's 49" away? I'd say that's judging distance, wouldn't you?

Measuring Etiquette

Kilkrazy — GMT

skyth wrote:When you fire weapons, you don't 'judge' the distance, you outright measure the distance to the target.

I don't waste the time when it clearly isn't necessary.

Measuring Etiquette

WARBOSS TZOO — GMT

puma713 wrote:Ah yeah, there was that hypothetical. The quotes were in reference to the movement pre-measurement thread though, just like this thread.

If you want to play that way because it makes the game go quicker and your opponent has no issue with it, great!

But if your opponent has an issue with it, and the rulebook disagrees with it, and the TO has an issue with it, then too bad.

puma713 wrote:However, in the case that all these threads are talking about, Dash made it abundantly clear.

And yet you wouldn't have a problem with it if he hadn't said anything, because you would be unable to judge whether or not it actually happened.

So what you would be doing by making this illegal is to punish stupid people who don't realise that they're breaking a rule, and ignoring people who are intent on cheating.

Seems ass-backwards to me.

Measuring Etiquette

skyth — GMT

Kilkrazy wrote:
Is it an incredible show of bad sportsmanship to require someone to measure the distance when it clearly isn't necessary, and you are only doing it to find out if your unit will be in charge range, which you are forbidden to pre-measure?

The rules for shooting allow (actually require) the distance to be measured. It is not pre-measuring. If it gives you more information, there is nothing wrong with that.

I say yes. I assume you would say no, so I think we shall just have to politely disagree.

If someone refused to measure a shot in a friendly game, I would just pack up.

I think some people are losing sight of the point that the rules are not an end in themselves. They are a means to the end of having an enjoyable game. We don't play the game simply to follow the rules, at least I don't.

Refusing to follow such a clear rule makes the game not fun for me. Especially with the implication that I'm a bad person for asking.

Measuring Etiquette

puma713 — GMT

skyth wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:
Is it an incredible show of bad sportsmanship to require someone to measure the distance when it clearly isn't necessary, and you are only doing it to find out if your unit will be in charge range, which you are forbidden to pre-measure?

The rules for shooting allow (actually require) the distance to be measured. It is not pre-measuring. If it gives you more information, there is nothing wrong with that.

I say yes. I assume you would say no, so I think we shall just have to politely disagree.

If someone refused to measure a shot in a friendly game, I would just pack up.

skyth wrote:
I think some people are losing sight of the point that the rules are not an end in themselves. They are a means to the end of having an enjoyable game. We don't play the game simply to follow the rules, at least I don't.

Refusing to follow such a clear rule makes the game not fun for me. Especially with the implication that I'm a bad person for asking.

So, on the same token, you'd be perfectly fine with me firing my laspistol at a unit 72" away to glean all the measurements I needed for the rest of my turn. The laspistol is going to miss, but I have to measure. And any other measurements I make out are perfectly fine. So now I know where I can and can't deep strike to be safe. I know how far I need to charge. I know how far I need to move my land raider to disembark and get into assault. All from a 6" laspistol shot.

Measuring Etiquette

WARBOSS TZOO — GMT

puma713 wrote:So, on the same token, you'd be perfectly fine with me firing my laspistol at a unit 72" away to glean all the measurements I needed for the rest of my turn. The laspistol is going to miss, but I have to measure. And any other measurements I make out are perfectly fine. So now I know where I can and can't deep strike to be safe. I know how far I need to charge. I know how far I need to move my land raider to disembark and get into assault. All from a 6" laspistol shot.

I'd personally be fine with it. Because of my aforementioned superior judging skills, I already know all this. I'd rather outplay you than win because you're gak at judging distances.

Measuring Etiquette

skyth — GMT

As for firing the laspistol at a target 72" away...I don't know if there's a rule in 40k, but in Fantasy, you cannot attempt actions that is obvious that they would fail. Shooting a 12" range gun at something 72" away falls into that category.

Nice Strawman though. Especially as they are entirely different situations.

Measuring Etiquette

puma713 — GMT

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:

puma713 wrote:However, in the case that all these threads are talking about, Dash made it abundantly clear.

And yet you wouldn't have a problem with it if he hadn't said anything, because you would be unable to judge whether or not it actually happened.

How am I going to have an issue with something that I don't know is going on? If you are intent on cheating and are good at it, then I suppose there's nothing I can do about it. You needed to cheat to win. That's on you. Whether or not I know you did it, you still cheated and it's still wrong. If you got away with it, then I wouldn't know to have a problem with it.

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:So what you would be doing by making this illegal is to punish stupid people who don't realise that they're breaking a rule, and ignoring people who are intent on cheating.

If someone doesn't realize they're breaking the rule, you can politely say, "you really aren't allowed to measure my unit's movement and charge range. Try to refrain from that in the future." People who are intent on cheating and do it blatantly, like Dash did, are not ignored. I wouldn't ignore anyone that was intent on cheating, if I had any sort of inkling about it.

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WARBOSS TZOO wrote:
puma713 wrote:So, on the same token, you'd be perfectly fine with me firing my laspistol at a unit 72" away to glean all the measurements I needed for the rest of my turn. The laspistol is going to miss, but I have to measure. And any other measurements I make out are perfectly fine. So now I know where I can and can't deep strike to be safe. I know how far I need to charge. I know how far I need to move my land raider to disembark and get into assault. All from a 6" laspistol shot.

I'd personally be fine with it. Because of my aforementioned superior judging skills, I already know all this. I'd rather outplay you than win because you're gak at judging distances.

And that's the whole point of this thread. You're not "outplaying" someone when you pre-measure your opponent's move and charge distances.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

skyth wrote:As for firing the laspistol at a target 72" away...I don't know if there's a rule in 40k, but in Fantasy, you cannot attempt actions that is obvious that they would fail. Shooting a 12" range gun at something 72" away falls into that category.

Nice Strawman though. Especially as they are entirely different situations.

In 40K, you measure from the closest model in the firing unit to the closest model in the targeted unit, whether the max range of the gun is 6" or 72".

And about the Strawman thing - pre-measuring movement to glean charge range of your opponent is no different than using a pistol to glean the charge range of your enemy. Both instances are pertinent to the conversation and the original argument.

Measuring Etiquette

WARBOSS TZOO — GMT

skyth wrote:As for firing the laspistol at a target 72" away...I don't know if there's a rule in 40k, but in Fantasy, you cannot attempt actions that is obvious that they would fail. Shooting a 12" range gun at something 72" away falls into that category.

You can shoot at something obviously out of range, what happens is that your shots automatically miss. You can still measure the distance between them.

puma713 wrote:How am I going to have an issue with something that I don't know is going on? If you are intent on cheating and are good at it, then I suppose there's nothing I can do about it. You needed to cheat to win. That's on you. Whether or not I know you did it, you still cheated and it's still wrong. If you got away with it, then I wouldn't know to have a problem with it.

This is exactly my point. You don't know what it is that I'm doing. You don't know that I'm premeasuring. I could just be slow to register numbers on a tape measure. (actually true, and why I practice to become decent at not needing to measure)

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:So what you would be doing by making this illegal is to punish stupid people who don't realise that they're breaking a rule, and ignoring people who are intent on cheating.

If someone doesn't realize they're breaking the rule, you can politely say, "you really aren't allowed to measure my unit's movement and charge range. Try to refrain from that in the future." People who are intent on cheating and do it blatantly, like Dash did, are not ignored. I wouldn't ignore anyone that was intent on cheating, if I had any sort of inkling about it.

First of all, we don't agree that it's cheating.

Second, the point is that if you make it illegal then people who are intent on cheating aren't going to make you aware of what they're doing. It's entirely pointless.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:
puma713 wrote:So, on the same token, you'd be perfectly fine with me firing my laspistol at a unit 72" away to glean all the measurements I needed for the rest of my turn. The laspistol is going to miss, but I have to measure. And any other measurements I make out are perfectly fine. So now I know where I can and can't deep strike to be safe. I know how far I need to charge. I know how far I need to move my land raider to disembark and get into assault. All from a 6" laspistol shot.

I'd personally be fine with it. Because of my aforementioned superior judging skills, I already know all this. I'd rather outplay you than win because you're gak at judging distances.

And that's the whole point of this thread. You're not "outplaying" someone when you pre-measure your opponent's move and charge distances.

I'm not outplaying someone by being a better judge of distance than they are, either, which is the point that I'm making here.

puma713 wrote:And about the Strawman thing - pre-measuring movement to glean charge range of your opponent is no different than using a pistol to glean the charge range of your enemy. Both instances are pertinent to the conversation and the original argument.

And one is entirely legal, and one is not. Either both should be illegal, or both should be legal.

Measuring Etiquette

puma713 — GMT

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:So what you would be doing by making this illegal is to punish stupid people who don't realise that they're breaking a rule, and ignoring people who are intent on cheating.

If someone doesn't realize they're breaking the rule, you can politely say, "you really aren't allowed to measure my unit's movement and charge range. Try to refrain from that in the future." People who are intent on cheating and do it blatantly, like Dash did, are not ignored. I wouldn't ignore anyone that was intent on cheating, if I had any sort of inkling about it.

First of all, we don't agree that it's cheating.

That's fine. But it is. You aren't allowed to measure your opponent's charge range and movement, which is what Dash did, under the guise of his movement phase.

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:
puma713 wrote:
WARBOSS TZOO wrote:
puma713 wrote:So, on the same token, you'd be perfectly fine with me firing my laspistol at a unit 72" away to glean all the measurements I needed for the rest of my turn. The laspistol is going to miss, but I have to measure. And any other measurements I make out are perfectly fine. So now I know where I can and can't deep strike to be safe. I know how far I need to charge. I know how far I need to move my land raider to disembark and get into assault. All from a 6" laspistol shot.

I'd personally be fine with it. Because of my aforementioned superior judging skills, I already know all this. I'd rather outplay you than win because you're gak at judging distances.

And that's the whole point of this thread. You're not "outplaying" someone when you pre-measure your opponent's move and charge distances.

I'm not outplaying someone by being a better judge of distance than they are, either, which is the point that I'm making here.

lol yes you are. You are outplaying them because you're a better judge of distance. If they can't look at a board and decide that you're too far away for a charge and they move forward anyway, your being able to more accurately judge makes you better at estimating measurements, which makes you a better player. But that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about setting down your tape measure, measuring how far your opponent can move and charge and then moving accordingly.

Anyway, I'm tired of arguing the same points in two threads. The majority has spoken (so far - 52% don't agree with the use of this tactic) in the other thread, so I'm happy at leaving it with that. I'm also happy that no one around here plays like this.

Measuring Etiquette

skyth — GMT

puma713 wrote:And about the Strawman thing - pre-measuring movement to glean charge range of your opponent is no different than using a pistol to glean the charge range of your enemy. Both instances are pertinent to the conversation and the original argument.

Not quite. By the rules you are required to measure to any target you fire at (Which is what this thread is about). Attempting an action that will obviously automatically fail is a different animal.

Measuring Etiquette

puma713 — GMT

skyth wrote:
puma713 wrote:And about the Strawman thing - pre-measuring movement to glean charge range of your opponent is no different than using a pistol to glean the charge range of your enemy. Both instances are pertinent to the conversation and the original argument.

Not quite. By the rules you are required to measure to any target you fire at (Which is what this thread is about). Attempting an action that will obviously automatically fail is a different animal.

It might have started that way, but it degenerated into the thread about pre-measurement, which was kicked-off by this thread about Dashofpepper and Primarch's game: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/296521.page It started about movement, not shooting, and has spanned many different forums. And this topic has moved toward that as well - the overall umbrella topic of pre-measuring, in which both the movement phases and the shooting phases can be affected. Hence, the points are pertinent.

Measuring Etiquette

skyth — GMT

The thing is, measuring the distance to a target is not pre-measuring.

Measuring Etiquette

puma713 — GMT

skyth wrote:The thing is, measuring the distance to a target is not pre-measuring.

If you happen to measure the charge range of one of your units to a completely unrelated unit that you expect to charge, just to find out if you're in range by using your shooting measuring, then yes, that is pre-measuring.

Measuring Etiquette

skyth — GMT

No, it isn't. Pre-measuring is only when you measure something outside of a game-required/allowed measurment.

Measuring Etiquette

puma713 — GMT

skyth wrote:No, it isn't. Pre-measuring is only when you measure something outside of a game-required/allowed measurment.

I line up my bolters with their 24" range. I take aim at a Chimera about. . say. . .60" away. I place my tape measure alongside a unit that I am planning to assault with, while, at the same time, laying my tape measure alongside the enemy unit that I plan to charge. I take a look at the tape measure to find out that the enemy unit is 7" away. Too far for a charge. Better use rapid fire on them. I find that my bolters miss the Chimera 60" away, but now I have pre-measured a charge range for one of my units and am using that knowledge to influence my further actions.

Measuring charge range is not allowed in the shooting phase. That is against the rules.

Measuring Etiquette

skyth — GMT

The same old Strawman. Attempting an action that you know will automatically fail is another kettle of fish.

Measuring Etiquette

puma713 — GMT

skyth wrote:The same old Strawman. Attempting an action that you know will automatically fail is another kettle of fish.

Christ. You're not getting the point. Fine, don't use a shot that will miss. Use a krak missile firing at a unit 36" away. If I use the measurement to find out a charge range, I am still pre-measuring a charge range which is against the rules.

Measuring Etiquette

WARBOSS TZOO — GMT

puma713 wrote:That's fine. But it is. You aren't allowed to measure your opponent's charge range and movement, which is what Dash did, under the guise of his movement phase.

But we don't agree that this is what he did. He measured his own movement and, extrapolated from that, which isn't against the rules.

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:
puma713 wrote:
WARBOSS TZOO wrote:
puma713 wrote:So, on the same token, you'd be perfectly fine with me firing my laspistol at a unit 72" away to glean all the measurements I needed for the rest of my turn. The laspistol is going to miss, but I have to measure. And any other measurements I make out are perfectly fine. So now I know where I can and can't deep strike to be safe. I know how far I need to charge. I know how far I need to move my land raider to disembark and get into assault. All from a 6" laspistol shot.

I'd personally be fine with it. Because of my aforementioned superior judging skills, I already know all this. I'd rather outplay you than win because you're gak at judging distances.

And that's the whole point of this thread. You're not "outplaying" someone when you pre-measure your opponent's move and charge distances.

I'm not outplaying someone by being a better judge of distance than they are, either, which is the point that I'm making here.

lol yes you are. You are outplaying them because you're a better judge of distance. If they can't look at a board and decide that you're too far away for a charge and they move forward anyway, your being able to more accurately judge makes you better at estimating measurements, which makes you a better player.

That might make you a better player, but beating someone because they misjudged a charge distance doesn't mean you outplayed them, and you cannot honestly believe this to be true.

But that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about setting down your tape measure, measuring how far your opponent can move and charge and then moving accordingly.

You're measuring your own movement. And extrapolating from that. Which is perfectly legal.

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puma713 wrote:
skyth wrote:The same old Strawman. Attempting an action that you know will automatically fail is another kettle of fish.

Christ. You're not getting the point. Fine, don't use a shot that will miss. Use a krak missile firing at a unit 36" away. If I use the measurement to find out a charge range, I am still pre-measuring a charge range which is against the rules.

If I measure the distance between two objects, X and Y, I then know the distance between Y and X, and I also have a fair idea of the distance of anything between X and Y and either X or Y.

Expecting me to forget this is utterly naive.

Measuring Etiquette

puma713 — GMT

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:

But that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about setting down your tape measure, measuring how far your opponent can move and charge and then moving accordingly.

You're measuring your own movement. And extrapolating from that. Which is perfectly legal.

And this thread isn't about legality (which is what it has boiled down to) but the etiquette of measuring - the intent. Dash measured his opponent's move and charge range, disguised as his own movement, and then moved backwards. Legal? Maybe - since he could disguise it as a legal move, technically yes. But while enforcing one rule, he broke another. Shady? Definitely.

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WARBOSS TZOO wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

puma713 wrote:
skyth wrote:The same old Strawman. Attempting an action that you know will automatically fail is another kettle of fish.

Christ. You're not getting the point. Fine, don't use a shot that will miss. Use a krak missile firing at a unit 36" away. If I use the measurement to find out a charge range, I am still pre-measuring a charge range which is against the rules.

If I measure the distance between two objects, X and Y, I then know the difference between Y and X, and I also have a fair idea of the distance of anything between X and Y and either X or Y.

Expecting me to forget this is utterly naive.

I didn't write the rules. If you take a measurement of something that you're not entitled to, it is cheating, plain and simple. Again, it comes back to intent.

Measuring Etiquette

WARBOSS TZOO — GMT

puma713 wrote:
WARBOSS TZOO wrote:

But that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about setting down your tape measure, measuring how far your opponent can move and charge and then moving accordingly.

You're measuring your own movement. And extrapolating from that. Which is perfectly legal.

And this thread isn't about legality (which is what it has boiled down to) but the etiquette of measuring - the intent. Dash measured his opponent's move and charge range, disguised as his own movement, and then moved backwards. Legal? Maybe - since he could disguise it as a legal move, technically yes. But while enforcing one rule, he broke another. Shady? Definitely.

I though you just said it was cheating?

Now it's legal?

Make up your mind.

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:
puma713 wrote:
skyth wrote:The same old Strawman. Attempting an action that you know will automatically fail is another kettle of fish.

Christ. You're not getting the point. Fine, don't use a shot that will miss. Use a krak missile firing at a unit 36" away. If I use the measurement to find out a charge range, I am still pre-measuring a charge range which is against the rules.

If I measure the distance between two objects, X and Y, I then know the difference between Y and X, and I also have a fair idea of the distance of anything between X and Y and either X or Y.

Expecting me to forget this is utterly naive.

I didn't write the rules. If you take a measurement of something that you're not entitled to, it is cheating, plain and simple.

Take it up with GW, then, because they've made it impossible to follow the rules without breaking them, as far as you're concerned.

Measuring Etiquette

skyth — GMT

No, you are not pre-measuring in that case. You are making a required measurment in the game. If you happen to get additional information from that, more power to you.

It's exactly the same thing as you destroy a Rhino and entangle the troops inside of it so they can't move next turn. Are you not allowed to fire pistols at the entangled unit because you'll know if you're in charge range then for the next turn? By your definition, you are pre-measuring and thus cheating.

Measuring Etiquette

puma713 — GMT

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:

I though you just said it was cheating?

Now it's legal?

Make up your mind.

Are you following me at all? I said yes it is legal to measure your movement. By doing so, he took another measurement, which is illegal. By enforcing one rule, he broke another. What do you do there? That's the point of these four or so threads that have started up about measurement.

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:
puma713 wrote:
WARBOSS TZOO wrote:

If I measure the distance between two objects, X and Y, I then know the difference between Y and X, and I also have a fair idea of the distance of anything between X and Y and either X or Y.

Expecting me to forget this is utterly naive.

I didn't write the rules. If you take a measurement of something that you're not entitled to, it is cheating, plain and simple.

Take it up with GW, then, because they've made it impossible to follow the rules without breaking them, as far as you're concerned.

And as far as the majority in the other thread as well. In fact, the person that committed the offense has said that he will not be resorting to that tactic anymore. I can take a measurement of my movement without INTENTIONALLY trying to pre-measure something else. That's like snubbing your nose at the rules and saying, "Well, I'm legally allowed to, so nyah!" So, the game is not unplayable. I take measurements all day without taking secondary measurements. And I do well! See you at the 'ard Boyz Semis.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

skyth wrote:No, you are not pre-measuring in that case. You are making a required measurment in the game. If you happen to get additional information from that, more power to you.

Measuring a length of the field for a purpose other than moving in the movement phase, or measuring something other than shooting in the shooting phase (aside from special rules and running - you get my point, let's not break this down into basic semantics so we can't have an actual discussion) is against the rules. It is clearly written. I'm not making this up. You're saying it is IMPOSSIBLE for you to measure something without taking a second measurement of something else? That is not me or GW breaking the game, that is you breaking the game.

Edit: Again, like I said about 5-6 posts ago, I'm off. The same argument in two threads is taxing and I have to be up in about four hours. If it's still going on, I'll talk to you tomorrow night.

Measuring Etiquette

WARBOSS TZOO — GMT

puma713 wrote:And as far as the majority in the other thread as well. In fact, the person that committed the offense has said that he will not be resorting to that tactic anymore.

Dash said that he won't be doing it again because it irritates people, not because he thinks it's rulebreaking.

I can take a measurement of my movement without INTENTIONALLY trying to pre-measure something else.

But you can't take a measurement of your movement when there's another persons unit in the vicinity of your movement without knowing whether or not they're in charge range/etc. At least without a lot of work.

That's like snubbing your nose at the rules and saying, "Well, I'm legally allowed to, so nyah!" So, the game is not unplayable.

Never said it wasn't. Just implied that it was foolish beyond belief to expect other people to conform to your imaginary set of rules.

I take measurements all day without taking secondary measurements.

If you know the distance between X and Y, you know the distance between Y and X. And if you know your opponents army, you then know if Y're in charge range.

So unless you're an incompetent general, you don't take measurements all day without taking secondary measurements.

And I do well! See you at the 'ard Boyz Semis.

So apparently either your preliminary opponents were incompetent, or you lie about taking secondary measurements, or you aren't aware that you're taking secondary measurements.

Measuring Etiquette

skyth — GMT

You are not taking the measurement of something not allowed, but you will know the distance by making other allowed measurements.

You are required to measure the distance to the target for weapon fire. Getting other information via that REQUIRED measurement is not pre-measuring any more than firing a pistol at a pinned squad is even though it will allow you to know if the squad is in assault range next turn. Same as two squads next to each other and the less valuable shot is taken first to see if the more valuable shot is in range, or should be used somewhere else.

Measuring Etiquette

kartofelkopf — GMT

puma713 wrote:

Anyway, I'm tired of arguing the same points in two threads. The majority has spoken (so far - 52% don't agree with the use of this tactic) in the other thread, so I'm happy at leaving it with that. I'm also happy that no one around here plays like this.

Lies, damn lies, and statistics, eh?

Only 7% think it is outright cheating.

49% Think it's perfectly legit.

45% say it's legal, but frowned upon.

(and for those keeping score at home, yes, those do total 101%)

Anyways, the point is... if you want to cite a poll supporting your position, try one that isn't almost a 50/50 split on this issue... and definitely don't cite a poll in which 94% of respondents would disagree with your bandying about of the term 'cheating'-- because something that is legal, isn't cheating.

Re:Measuring Etiquette

generalgrog — GMT

I've been following this thread and watching the point, counter point. I have allready given my opinion and stated that the simplest thing to do would be to just comply with the request to measure my range to the target. No biggie. Two can play that way.

All of these "what if" straw man arguments about can a lasgun meaure out to 48" etc.etc. are so far beyond anything that would actually happen in a real game of 40K vs on some theoretical situaton on an internet forum, it really is an example of how to rules lawyer.

Also I think it's false to call it premeasuring by asking your opponent to measure HIS range to HIS target. Trying to say that you are premeasuring, by asking your opponent to measure HIS range to target on HIS turn is not premeasuring.

It's only premeasuring when you pull out YOUR tape measure and start to measure YOUR targets.

Bottom line is, it really isn't that big of a deal.

So much drama.......

GG

Measuring Etiquette

Mannahnin — GMT

Interesting thread.

I don't think there have been any significant strawman arguments here, and I've actually run into a problem with this recently at Adepticon. In an otherwise great game against two high-quality and sportmanlike opponents, my partner and I were surprised and discomfited that when we fired a multimelta at a unit of Thunderwolf cav, one of our opponents requested that we go back and re-measure so he could clearly see the exact distance and so best judge the move+fleet+charge distance for his TWC. This seemed inappropriate to us, but reading Redbeard and Capt Zachs's posts today, I can better see where our opponent was coming from.

Overall I have to agree with Kilkrazy and Puma.

The rules state that we are not allowed to pre-measure our shooting or assault moves. The intent is clearly for players to need to exercise personal judgment of distances when committing to an action.

The rules also clearly state that we measure from the firing model to the targeted unit for any shot. I agree that it is implicit in the rule that both players get access to the same information from the measurement, but I definitely see Kilkrazy’s point that this seems to conflict with the general idea of not pre-measuring.

When I started wargaming it was in a very strict no-premeasuring environment, and we used multiple procedural techniques to prevent the inappropriate gaining of any unnecessary data about distances on the table. This meant that (for example) swinging your tape measure in an arc before deciding what direction to move was verboten. The rule of thumb was “you measure, you move.” This meant, for example, that vehicle movements were often made in stages, as each short measurement you made just committed you to that distance, and you retained the freedom to measure a different direction for remaining movement distance you hadn’t measured yet. Flipping the tape measure on a shooting measurement to prevent pre-knowledge of assault moves was another common technique.

When the 5th edition rules came out and officially sanctioned pre-measuring for your own movement, I was a combination of discomfited and relieved. A little annoyed at the conflict with the traditional strong censure on pre-measuring, but mostly relieved, as I had certainly faced a good number of people who did things like swinging their tape measure in an arc to measure potential moves for their flyer or skimmer, and having that officially allowed meant I didn’t have to have uncomfortable conversations about it or sit there being annoyed.

IMO there is a conflict in the rules here, and I can understand how different players, particularly ones from different gaming backgrounds, can come to different conclusions on this subject. I think the Pistol example is strong evidence that the person who wrote the phrasing on the rules for measuring shooting distances did not take into account the conflict with pre-measuring shooting/assault. The fact that firing a pistol technically (under one reading, anyway) makes it legal to measure to a unit four feet away (thus giving you the range for your missile launchers in another nearby unit) seems to my mind to be clearly an unintended consequence resulting from sloppy wording.

Given the clear prohibition on not pre-measuring for shooting or assault, and the fact that processes exist by which we may satisfy the needs of both rules (determining whether the first shooting unit is in range, without pre-measuring another), such as by flipping the tape measure, I think using those alternate solutions best fits both the rules and their intent.

Measuring Etiquette

skyth — GMT

Flipping the tape measure over is not Kosher. It's too easy to 'accidently' get a couple extra inches of range that way.

Measuring Etiquette

carmachu — GMT

Frazzled wrote:Ayah I'm not trying to be a butthead here, but the prepodnerence of the 'etiquette' is on the part of the shooter and a flipped tape measure screams "cheater" and "TFG" when there are easier methods as noted above. If Master "you call me a cheater I'll shoot in the Face" Frazzled is saying this smacks of cheating then there's a problem here.

Actually, not only are you trying to be a butthead, but your pretty much condoning thebehavior of the OP's opponent who clearly only wanted to know for countercharge purposes.

Around here we call that cheating.

It the tape measure is clicked open at 36 and locked in place, numbers up or numbers down its STILL 36". And your asking for some measurement thats half its range. You dont need to see the numbers.

Measuring Etiquette

skyth — GMT

It is hardly cheating. It is actually following the rules and is a rules-required measurement. The 'cheater' is the person refusing to measure.

Measuring Etiquette

CptZach — GMT

carmachu wrote:

It the tape measure is clicked open at 36 and locked in place, numbers up or numbers down its STILL 36". And your asking for some measurement thats half its range. You dont need to see the numbers.

Except the rule book tells you how to measure. Closest model to closest model. NOT wave the tape measure around to make sure you are in range.

So how is following the rulebook cheating?

Measuring Etiquette

carmachu — GMT

CptZach wrote:

Except the rule book tells you how to measure. Closest model to closest model. NOT wave the tape measure around to make sure you are in range.

So how is following the rulebook cheating?

Becuase your opponent is not asking to check for range of the weapon from what the OP is sounding off. He's doing it to get information about charging. It be no different if he were using his elbow to arm or premeasuring himself.

If one wants to make sure your in range, I'm ok. But when you start to make people do it to get information for charges and countercharges, well thats a whole different ballgame.

Measuring Etiquette

WARBOSS TZOO — GMT

carmachu wrote:Becuase your opponent is not asking to check for range of the weapon from what the OP is sounding off.

Yes, he is.

He's doing it to get information about charging.

That's why he's doing it, sure. But it's not what he's doing. He's asking his opponent to measure the distance between the shooting unit and the unit he's shooting at. Any information gleaned from that is entirely beside the point.

Measuring Etiquette

Mannahnin — GMT

carmachu wrote:
Frazzled wrote:Ayah I'm not trying to be a butthead here, but the prepodnerence of the 'etiquette' is on the part of the shooter and a flipped tape measure screams "cheater" and "TFG" when there are easier methods as noted above. If Master "you call me a cheater I'll shoot in the Face" Frazzled is saying this smacks of cheating then there's a problem here.

Actually, not only are you trying to be a butthead, but your pretty much condoning thebehavior of the OP's opponent who clearly only wanted to know for countercharge purposes.

Around here we call that cheating.

Carmachu, please don’t make disagreements with other posters into personal arguments. Insults are not cool.

carmachu wrote:If the tape measure is clicked open at 36 and locked in place, numbers up or numbers down its STILL 36". And your asking for some measurement thats half its range. You dont need to see the numbers.

Exactly. There’s no real chance of cheating there. It’s an easy procedure.

Extend tape measure (above the table, away from the models) out to requisite distance. Visually show the distance to your opponent so he can confirm you’re measuring the right distance. Lock. Then hold the tape measure upside-down so neither of you can see the numbers while you measure the exact distance.

The measurement verifies that the weapon is in range with equal accuracy as doing it right-side-up, without giving either of you additional information which would constitute premeasuring (either for your own other shooting units, or your opponent’s assault moves).

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:
carmachu wrote:He's doing it to get information about charging.

That's why he's doing it, sure. But it's not what he's doing. He's asking his opponent to measure the distance between the shooting unit and the unit he's shooting at. Any information gleaned from that is entirely beside the point.

Both myself and Kilkrazy have identified an apparent conflict in the rules for measuring shooting and those forbidding pre-measuring. I expanded on it a bit in my last post. Do you have any thoughts on what I posted?

Measuring Etiquette

WARBOSS TZOO — GMT

Mannahnin wrote:Both myself and Kilkrazy have identified an apparent conflict in the rules for measuring shooting and those forbidding pre-measuring. I expanded on it a bit in my last post. Do you have any thoughts on what I posted?

I feel like the "flip the tape measure over" solution opens up a can of potential abuse, and that I honestly don't care if my opponent is pre-measuring things in the way posited by the OP regardless, as I can measure things by eye very accurately anyway. This means that we're acting with equal information. If I cannot win in a game where all measurements are known to begin with, then while the odds are greater that I can win in one where all measurements are not known, it certainly won't be because I outplayed my opponent. It'll just be because I'm better at judging range than s/he is.

Re:Measuring Etiquette

Redbeard — GMT

The problem with your explanation, Mannahnin, is that it isn't what the rulebook says to do. I understand that some of you guys who have been playing the game for a long time are used to playing under a different set of rules, but regardless of what was expected in past editions of the game, the current edition is pretty clear about what is allowed and what isn't.

Consider the paragraph that is the only prohibition against "pre-measuring". It is on page 3 of the rules:

In general, players are not allowed to measure any distance except when the rules call for it (e.g after declaring an assault, or firing at an enemy, to work out a rule's area of effect, when deploying their forces, etc.)

Not only does that rule prohibit making measurements when not allowed, but it expressly allows taking measurements when the rules do call for it. These are defined opportunities to gather information.

You're still attempting to apply some prejudice from earlier editions of the game onto people who may not have played that edition of the game. Apply Occam's Razor - what is the simplest solution? Just measuring the distance, or applying all sorts of extra steps like rotating tape measures to hide the measurement? There's no basis in the rules for what you're attempting to do.

On GW's website, before it was redone, and all the articles disappeared, using this opportunity to gather information was actually called out as smart play in some of their tactics articles. You don't get unlimited knowledge of distances between things, but when the rules call for it, you do get the opportunity to gather this information. This isn't 'pre-measuring', it's simply measuring something that the rules require you to measure, and remembering that information for later. Declaring shots is one of the few cases where making a measurement is allowed, and personal feelings formed from past editions of the game shouldn't have any place in whether following the current edition of the rules is reasonable behaviour.

Measuring Etiquette

Danny Internets — GMT

Both myself and Kilkrazy have identified an apparent conflict in the rules for measuring shooting and those forbidding pre-measuring.

So if I measure range to a target in Turn 1 and fire then I'm cheating if neither unit moves and I do it again in Turn 2 because I pre-measured in Turn 1? Your position would need to answer yes to be logically consistent.

In fact, every single measurement after the game's first can potentially be construed as pre-measurement and therefore cheating. Taking this position breaks the game, hence why it's not a good one.

EDIT: Redbeard cited the rule I couldn't find and said it better anyway.

Measuring Etiquette

Guitardian — GMT

The operative part of that sentence Redbeard quoted would be 'in general'.

Measuring Etiquette

WARBOSS TZOO — GMT

Guitardian wrote:The operative part of that sentence Redbeard quoted would be 'in general'.

The part that you're ignoring would be "except when the rules call for it".

Measuring Etiquette

Guitardian — GMT

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:
Guitardian wrote:The operative part of that sentence Redbeard quoted would be 'in general'.

The part that you're ignoring would be "except when the rules call for it".

Did the rules say I have to show him? Or did we just assume, the same we assume the laspistol is out of range half a board away.

Measuring Etiquette

WARBOSS TZOO — GMT

Guitardian wrote:
WARBOSS TZOO wrote:
Guitardian wrote:The operative part of that sentence Redbeard quoted would be 'in general'.

The part that you're ignoring would be "except when the rules call for it".

Did the rules say I have to show him? Or did we just assume, the same we assume the laspistol is out of range half a board away.

The rules don't say I have to show you the results of my dice rolls. Do I have to show you the results of my dice rolls?

Measuring Etiquette

Danny Internets — GMT

Guitardian wrote:

Did the rules say I have to show him? Or did we just assume, the same we assume the laspistol is out of range half a board away.

The rulebook also never says that we need to use a standardized instrument to make measurements. I guess that means I can use my home-made ruler, you know, the one with extra long inches that only I get to use. Of course you'll never know the inches are longer because I'll be hiding all of my measurements. Totally legal, right?

Re:Measuring Etiquette

olympia — GMT

I think most agree that the rules call for a measurement to the closest model when shooting. However, this thread is about etiquette not RAW. Now then, many people will be offended if you demand a measurement from a deffgun or something else with a huge range when the target is quite obviously in range. In a tournament setting with sports scoring (basically all in the U.S.) you should expect to get tanked on that sports score. That is why I was surprised that in the original thread about pre-measuring primarch said he had awarded full sports scores to his opponent. If he had tanked his opponent for pre-measuring then he would have got tanked on sports in retribution. Yet more evidence that sports scoring is useless.

Measuring Etiquette

Guitardian — GMT

I think Mister Olympia kind of hit it straught there: Yes you can gain a (albeit minor) advantage by playing up the RAW in certain scenarios, but that just leads to losing out on your sporty score. Prob with sporty score is they just hit you back just because they're bad sports. Not much can be done about that. A scoring system to encourage friendly gaming is necessarily subjective, and going to be doomed to fail. If the anal types would create a new system that is cut and dry and anal like they are, we could have a policy where some judge knocks a point off your sporty points score every time you demand an obviously bs range measurement that wan't necessary... maybe knock off two points if you do it in the end round when there's only a couple minutes left to play. If you want to play like jerks then so be it. When they make 6th edition that tells me I have to show what I measure, instead of just telling me I have to measure. Sure I have to measure, but, it's simply none of your business. If you want to be an obvious dick, expect a bigger obvious dick back... or go play chess like the badass tactician you think you are. And yeah... before I close, I will take all comers at chess... just not at warhammer (something about arguements and dice and ambiguities)...

Measuring Etiquette

Redbeard — GMT

Why should it be considered poor etiquette to ask for a measurement when the rules call for one, if you have any interest in what the distance is? The rules clearly indicate that there are very specific times when you're allowed to measure things. Taking that opportunity, when it arises, is not poor sportsmanship. Just about every other thing discussed in this ridiculous thread is, including hiding measurements, hiding dice, tanking an opponent's score for their choice to follow the rules, trying to take shots that you know will fail, or using a custom ruler.

You old-school people need to accept that whatever the rules or traditions were in previous editions, 5th edition allows this action. Whatever personal affront to your sensibilities this may be is something you need to get over. Don't go calling an opponent names or insulting their sportsmanship simply because they're taking an opportunity that the rules grant them to gather information about the state of the board.

Should we only take one shot with our bolters too, using a previous edition's rules for those?

Measuring Etiquette

Guitardian — GMT

No, previous editions allowed for split squad shots depending on model facing, and overwatch rules that are evidently too complex nowadays. You don't have to diss oldschool wargamers just because you have mastered the science of what used to be an art (including painting). It's really about the spirit of the rules in this arguement and I'm sorry but I have to rank up with the old schoolers on this one. Everyone knows what measuring in the shooting phase is for; It is to find out if your weapon can hit. Some people use it to plan their assault phase instead. I'll fire off shuripistol shots all day at a target a mile away just so I can range my indirect fires, and then then stuff gets blown to pieces I guess I can claim impunity because it was full in my rights to measure whether or not I was 6" away from a model I could eye at about 3 feet.

You can use rules, and you can abuse them. When they write a book that tells me otherwise, if I catch a dude doing that tactic I'll just measure and keep it to myself.

"yup... it's more than 6, no shot for me... your turn... nice to know the distance though"

Measuring Etiquette

WARBOSS TZOO — GMT

Guitardian wrote:No, previous editions allowed for split squad shots depending on model facing, and overwatch rules that are evidently too complex nowadays. You don't have to diss oldschool wargamers just because you have mastered the science of what used to be an art (including painting). It's really about the spirit of the rules in this arguement and I'm sorry but I have to rank up with the old schoolers on this one. Everyone knows what measuring in the shooting phase is for; It is to find out if your weapon can hit. Some people use it to plan their assault phase instead. I'll fire off shuripistol shots all day at a target a mile away just so I can range my indirect fires, and then then stuff gets blown to pieces I guess I can claim impunity because it was full in my rights to measure whether or not I was 6" away from a model I could eye at about 3 feet.

You can use rules, and you can abuse them. When they write a book that tells me otherwise, if I catch a dude doing that tactic I'll just measure and keep it to myself.

"yup... it's more than 6"

No, you can't fire your shuriken pistols.

Why not?

Your models have no eyes.

Measuring Etiquette

Danny Internets — GMT

You can use rules, and you can abuse them. When they write a book that tells me otherwise, if I catch a dude doing that tactic I'll just measure and keep it to myself.

Good luck getting away with that in a tournament.

Measuring Etiquette

Guitardian — GMT

I'd be happy to share the info with a judge if it came down to it, just not the opponent. It's a blatant disregard for RAI, which I like to play by, as do most. If someone is abusing it I'll say RAW... show me where it says... and yeah nobody will like it. This is of course a hypothetical scenario, I don't actually play like this. Just as most people don't actually play like that. Point is that if someone does play like that, they have no reason to object if someone doesn't give them the information they underhandedly sought, since it is nowhere in the RAW that they are required to.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
If people really played like this IRL I imagine there would be a lot of frustrated and overworked TO s quitting for a new hobby.

Measuring Etiquette

WARBOSS TZOO — GMT

Guitardian wrote:I'd be happy to share the info with a judge if it came down to it, just not the opponent.

Sounds like you'll be unhappy with the judge's ruling then.

Measuring Etiquette

Primarch — GMT

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:
puma713 wrote:That's fine. But it is. You aren't allowed to measure your opponent's charge range and movement, which is what Dash did, under the guise of his movement phase.

But we don't agree that this is what he did. He measured his own movement and, extrapolated from that, which isn't against the rules.

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:
puma713 wrote:
WARBOSS TZOO wrote:
puma713 wrote:So, on the same token, you'd be perfectly fine with me firing my laspistol at a unit 72" away to glean all the measurements I needed for the rest of my turn. The laspistol is going to miss, but I have to measure. And any other measurements I make out are perfectly fine. So now I know where I can and can't deep strike to be safe. I know how far I need to charge. I know how far I need to move my land raider to disembark and get into assault. All from a 6" laspistol shot.

I'd personally be fine with it. Because of my aforementioned superior judging skills, I already know all this. I'd rather outplay you than win because you're gak at judging distances.

And that's the whole point of this thread. You're not "outplaying" someone when you pre-measure your opponent's move and charge distances.

I'm not outplaying someone by being a better judge of distance than they are, either, which is the point that I'm making here.

lol yes you are. You are outplaying them because you're a better judge of distance. If they can't look at a board and decide that you're too far away for a charge and they move forward anyway, your being able to more accurately judge makes you better at estimating measurements, which makes you a better player.

That might make you a better player, but beating someone because they misjudged a charge distance doesn't mean you outplayed them, and you cannot honestly believe this to be true.

But that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about setting down your tape measure, measuring how far your opponent can move and charge and then moving accordingly.

You're measuring your own movement. And extrapolating from that. Which is perfectly legal.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

puma713 wrote:
skyth wrote:The same old Strawman. Attempting an action that you know will automatically fail is another kettle of fish.

Christ. You're not getting the point. Fine, don't use a shot that will miss. Use a krak missile firing at a unit 36" away. If I use the measurement to find out a charge range, I am still pre-measuring a charge range which is against the rules.

If I measure the distance between two objects, X and Y, I then know the distance between Y and X, and I also have a fair idea of the distance of anything between X and Y and either X or Y.

Expecting me to forget this is utterly naive.

You should re-read that thread, and Dash's own words then. Clearly you don't understand. He did in fact do exactly as Puma says. By Dash's own words.

Clay

Measuring Etiquette

Guitardian — GMT

All I have to do, according to the book, is measure it. No ruling necessary, just let him see me do so. Following the rules. This whole arguement comes down to presumption and "who started it". If you won't assume that I am in range when it's ridiculously obvious, I will not assume I have to tell you the range until you can find the fine print that tells me I am required to. All you need to know is that I am, and all the poor judge has to do is verify my measurement. Yes I measured it, yes I know the exact distance, no I don't have to tell you. All rules obeyed and nobody has any fun. But who started it?

Measuring Etiquette

WARBOSS TZOO — GMT

Primarch wrote:You should re-read that thread, and Dash's own words then. Clearly you don't understand. He did in fact do exactly as Puma says. By Dash's own words.

He measured from his vehicle == He measured his own movement. Any information he gleaned from that is secondary.

Guitardian wrote:All I have to do, according to the book, is measure it. No ruling necessary, just let him see me do so. Following the rules.

According to the book, your eldar cannot shoot, as they have no eyes to measure from.

I'm just following the rules.

Measuring Etiquette

Guitardian — GMT

They have eyeHOLES in thier silly elf hats, but no actual biological eyes (that would be some kind of creepy conversion job you'd see years later dramatized on Law And Order or something). I guess technically that's not close enough either, and all marines are blind too except the occasional sarge... at least genestealers can still shoot or... wait... no they cant! but at least you can see the reds of their eyes!

Re:Measuring Etiquette

Primarch — GMT

I think a side effect of all the people that are using this stance, is the time length in a tournament game.

If I am playing Seer Council, or Nob Bikers from now on, I will measure 24 inch bubbles around every model in the unit to make sure i get the right charges off in all cases. THen I will demand to see every single measurement for shooting down to the inch coming from my opponent. Heck, even his movement. Since he would have to share that information with me, else it opens up the possibility of cheating.

Also, he will have to show me how far onto the table he deployed his models, to make sure of course that they aren't over the 12 inch line. If that gives me the information that he only deployed 7 inches in to protect his units, that is secondary information.

Do you even remotely see where this could all end up? I mean the game will drag out forever, however, you can't call me for slow play, because according to all of you, its all perfectly legal, and you would have no problem with me doing any of it. Right?

Clay

Re:Measuring Etiquette

WARBOSS TZOO — GMT

Primarch wrote:however, you can't call me for slow play, because according to all of you, its all perfectly legal

Uh, no, I can call you for slow play. One measurement is not slow play. All the measurements are slow play. Slow play has never been about performing illegal moves slowly.

Measuring Etiquette

Cannerus_The_Unbearable — GMT

Decide at the start of the game. Not everyone is offended by doing it and some would be offended if you didn't let them. That way no one is a bad sport and this stupid argument can be over.

Also: Don't get your panties in a twist over assumptions. Some people might believe the game works a different way than you.

Measuring Etiquette

Guitardian — GMT

So YOU get to pick which measurement matters when it serves your purpose? But all other measures can just be assumed when you don't need them, ummm... due to time constraints...? hmmm... well... lawyers are very good at only presenting the evidence that helps their case.

Measuring Etiquette

skyth — GMT

Strawman Primarch. If you are doing something to be an ass that is different than doing something allowed by the rules for a game-related purpose.

As for the locking the tape measure at the range and flipping it upside down, it does also possibly give additional information. As you are putting a known measurement on the board, you are allowing knowledge of other ranges around.

It's a blatant disregard for RAI, which I like to play by, as do most

I challenge that assertion. First that it's RAI as the rule is crystal clear. It's more RAIWTP (Rules as I want to play). Second that most people would have an issue with a range request when outright granted by the rules. I've only had one person give me a hard time about it and he's an ass anyways and someone that I have no desire to play ever again.

Measuring Etiquette

Primarch — GMT

skyth wrote:Strawman Primarch. If you are doing something to be an ass that is different than doing something allowed by the rules for a game-related purpose.

As for the locking the tape measure at the range and flipping it upside down, it does also possibly give additional information. As you are putting a known measurement on the board, you are allowing knowledge of other ranges around.

It's a blatant disregard for RAI, which I like to play by, as do most

I challenge that assertion. First that it's RAI as the rule is crystal clear. It's more RAIWTP (Rules as I want to play). Second that most people would have an issue with a range request when outright granted by the rules. I've only had one person give me a hard time about it and he's an ass anyways and someone that I have no desire to play ever again.

Re-read the thread Skyth, both of them in fact. We tried to argue that intent mattered, but were shouted down, as you cant PROVE intent. How then can intent be used against me now? If my intent is to find the best possible move, then I need to measure accordingly. Add that to the poster above, he is quite right. You can't just say that your measuring/pre-measuring is fine, but mine somehow isn't. Either the intent to measure my stuff illegaly, disguised as your movement is illegal, or it isn't because of the disguise. If it's legal and there is nothing wrong with it, then my scenario above is also perfectly legal.

Clay

Measuring Etiquette

WARBOSS TZOO — GMT

Guitardian wrote:So YOU get to pick which measurement matters when it serves your purpose? But all other measures can just be assumed when you don't need them, ummm... due to time constraints...? hmmm... well... lawyers are very good at only presenting the evidence that helps their case.

Yeah, when I don't care at all about a measurement and it's clearly in range, feel free to bypass measurement.

Asking for one measurement isn't stalling. Asking for every measurement clearly is stalling. The two are not equivilant, no matter how much you'd like them to be.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Primarch wrote:You can't just say that your measuring/pre-measuring is fine, but mine somehow isn't. Either the intent to measure my stuff illegaly, disguised as your movement is illegal, or it isn't because of the disguise. If it's legal and there is nothing wrong with it, then my scenario above is also perfectly legal.

And I repeat, slow play has nothing to do with whether or not the moves you're performing are illegal.

But if you want to argue that it's fine to take measurements that are virtually identical repeatedly to the judge, go nuts.

Re:Measuring Etiquette

Primarch — GMT

Hmm, so if i have a big unit of bikes spread out, then every move would be an identical measurement? And you say you are an expert at judging distances?

Here is the thing, my intent will be to try and find the best possible move, not slow play the game. I just happen to know, that it will in fact slow the game down, just as a matter of how long it will take. Either way, I am perfectly allowed by the rules to measure my stuff, just as you are, just as Dash was. I would certainly expect the TO to be fine with it, as legal, REQUIRED(word I picked up from you guys in this thread) measuring must be done or else I am cheating/whatever. Right? Right?

Clay

Measuring Etiquette

Guitardian — GMT

It is required that I measure my shots. Also that you measure yours. Neither of this information is required to be shared, hence the upside-down tape measure counter terrorism tactic.

Measuring Etiquette

Aelyn — GMT

Guitardian wrote:It is required that I measure my shots. Also that you measure yours. Neither of this information is required to be shared, hence the upside-down tape measure counter terrorism tactic.

But if you use the upside-down tape measure method, you haven't actually measured the distance from your model to theirs. All you've done is to demonstrate the distance is less than a predetermined value - that's not what the rules ask for.

For what it's worth, in my playgroup we've always played exactly this way - whenever a shot has been declared, it's been measured. Not for every model, but certainly for closest to closest, furthest to closest, and all when necessary (for example for rapid fire reasons). However, we've never done the "fire a pistol at a model four feet away" trick.

Measuring Etiquette

WARBOSS TZOO — GMT

Primarch wrote:Hmm, so if i have a big unit of bikes spread out, then every move would be an identical measurement? And you say you are an expert at judging distances?

Virtually identical, yes. If you know one, you can easily extrapolate the rest.

Unless, of course, you're not as good at judging distances as I am.

Here is the thing, my intent will be to try and find the best possible move, not slow play the game.

I thought you were arguing from the basis that intent doesn't matter? Be consistant.

I just happen to know, that it will in fact slow the game down, just as a matter of how long it will take. Either way, I am perfectly allowed by the rules to measure my stuff, just as you are, just as Dash was. I would certainly expect the TO to be fine with it, as legal, REQUIRED(word I picked up from you guys in this thread) measuring must be done or else I am cheating/whatever. Right? Right?

Those tricksy TOs though, you just can't predict what they'll do. Feel free to argue your newfound zealotry though.

Guitardian wrote:It is required that I measure my shots. Also that you measure yours. Neither of this information is required to be shared, hence the upside-down tape measure counter terrorism tactic.

What Aelyn said.

And it is required that I roll dice for tohit and towound. None of this information is required to be shared, hence my rolling the dice in a partitioned area that you don't get to see for counterterrorism tactic.

Re:Measuring Etiquette

Primarch — GMT

Negative, I argue that INTENT does mean something. For instance, if you measure your movement with the sole intent of measuring my move/charge range, I consider that to be against the rules. When I made this case, people immediately said I couldnt do that, because you can't glean intent.

Now, I have changed my argument so suit those folks, they can have it their way. Since they can't possibly glean my intent, how can they hold it against me, when they told me I couldnt hold intent against anyone else?

I am consistent, but i have been told repeatedly by you and others that these are just good tactics, so now i will put them to good use, how then can you say I am wrong? I am just doing as you advised....

Clay

Measuring Etiquette

Danny Internets — GMT

Guitardian wrote:It is required that I measure my shots. Also that you measure yours. Neither of this information is required to be shared, hence the upside-down tape measure counter terrorism tactic.

I hope you enjoy a games where everything your opponent measures is always in range and he rolls all 6's because you'll have no standing to challenge him on it.

In any event, the point is moot as no TO would ever let you get away with this ridiculousness. The rules are clear to everyone. Well, everyone but you, I guess.

Re:Measuring Etiquette

WARBOSS TZOO — GMT

Primarch wrote:Negative, I argue that INTENT does mean something. For instance, if you measure your movement with the sole intent of measuring my move/charge range, I consider that to be against the rules. When I made this case, people immediately said I couldnt do that, because you can't glean intent.

Now, I have changed my argument so suit those folks, they can have it their way. Since they can't possibly glean my intent, how can they hold it against me, when they told me I couldnt hold intent against anyone else?

I am consistent, but i have been told repeatedly by you and others that these are just good tactics, so now i will put them to good use, how then can you say I am wrong? I am just doing as you advised....

We're not holding your intent against you. We're holding your actions against you. You're playing too slowly. Slow play has nothing to do with the legality or illegality of what you are doing, it has to do with how quickly you are doing it. If you are too slow, you are too slow. Full stop.

Re:Measuring Etiquette

Primarch — GMT

If i am measuring at a decent pace, its not that I am going to measure slooooooooowwwwwwwlllllllllyyyyy. It's that making all the measurements you guys say I should be making to be a better 40k player, are just going to take a really long time. Fast or not, its going to slow the game down, no matter what. Lucky me that measuring is required in most cases, and my right in others....

Clay

Re:Measuring Etiquette

WARBOSS TZOO — GMT

Primarch wrote:If i am measuring at a decent pace, its not that I am going to measure slooooooooowwwwwwwlllllllllyyyyy. It's that making all the measurements you guys say I should be making to be a better 40k player, are just going to take a really long time. Fast or not, its going to slow the game down, no matter what. Lucky me that measuring is required in most cases, and my right in others....

Clay

If you are taking too long to complete your turn, then you are taking too long to complete your turn. Full stop. You cannot argue against this.

I lie, you can try. But the TO will have other ideas.

Re:Measuring Etiquette

Primarch — GMT

Hmm, i figured to use the old "they told me on dakka this would make me a better general" argument. Figure that won't fly huh?

How about?;

The rules require my opponent to show me all his measurements according to Dakka, and legally I can measure all my movement as bubbles before deciding where to move them.

Worth a try, since you guys seem to think it would be ok making all these measurements.

Clay

Measuring Etiquette

WARBOSS TZOO — GMT

If you can do it without taking too long to complete your turn, sure.

Measuring Etiquette

skyth — GMT

Asking for a required measurement is legal and smart play if you can benefit from it.

Flipping your tape measure over so your opponent can't see it is the same as hiding dice rolls. Bad sportsmanship and a breach of Etiquette. Not to mention, it isn't counterterrorism...Rather it is the original terrorism.

Measuring Etiquette

carmachu — GMT

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:

That's why he's doing it, sure. But it's not what he's doing. He's asking his opponent to measure the distance between the shooting unit and the unit he's shooting at. Any information gleaned from that is entirely beside the point.

Any information gained in a like manner is cheating. And its ENTIRELY the point of him doing it. Its no different from using yoru elbow to arm. Asking me to measure a 36" gun when the distance is ~18" or less is simply trying to cheat the system. He absolutely knows that its already in range.

Measuring Etiquette

skyth — GMT

No, it is not cheating. Cheating requires you to break the rules. However, having a measurement that is required by the rules is the exact opposite of cheating. The cheating is the refusing to measure it.

It's the same as having a unit of plasma gun Havoks in a Rhino. There is a unit of boys around 19" away and a unit of Meganobs that you think is 23.5" away in another direction. Is firing the combi-bolter at the meganobs to get a ranging shot for the Havoks cheating or smart play?

Measuring Etiquette

Danny Internets — GMT

carmachu wrote:
WARBOSS TZOO wrote:

That's why he's doing it, sure. But it's not what he's doing. He's asking his opponent to measure the distance between the shooting unit and the unit he's shooting at. Any information gleaned from that is entirely beside the point.

Any information gained in a like manner is cheating. And its ENTIRELY the point of him doing it. Its no different from using yoru elbow to arm. Asking me to measure a 36" gun when the distance is ~18" or less is simply trying to cheat the system. He absolutely knows that its already in range.

In order to cheat you must break a rule. What rule is being broken by, um, following the rules? Please quote the relevant passage.

Measuring Etiquette

syanticraven — GMT

carmachu wrote:
WARBOSS TZOO wrote:

That's why he's doing it, sure. But it's not what he's doing. He's asking his opponent to measure the distance between the shooting unit and the unit he's shooting at. Any information gleaned from that is entirely beside the point.

Any information gained in a like manner is cheating. And its ENTIRELY the point of him doing it. Its no different from using yoru elbow to arm. Asking me to measure a 36" gun when the distance is ~18" or less is simply trying to cheat the system. He absolutely knows that its already in range.

But if the distance is exactly 36" and he gains the information you are exactly 36" ? or even close to 30"

Where is the cut off point between cheating when learning information, and not.

Measuring Etiquette

Redbeard — GMT

If this came up in a case where the shooting player had two units next to each other, one with a 36" range and one with a 48" range... let's say a heavy bolter and an autocannon.

Would you object to them taking the autocannon shot first, and measuring it, prior to declaring their shots with the heavy bolter unit?

What if the overall ranges were shorter? If you have a unit of Dire Avengers (range 18") next to a Death Jester w/ Shuriken Cannon (24" range), would it be wrong to measure the Death Jester's shot first, before deciding to shoot the Dire Avengers or run them?

What if you had two weapons with the same range, but one was a more-important shot. Say I've got a unit with a heavy bolter next to a unit with a plasma cannon, and I may, or may-not be in range with them. If I declare the shots with the Heavy Bolter first, couldn't I use that measurement to decide where to place my plasma template?

To the best of my knowledge, players have done all of the above regularly, and without issue, for years. The rules don't dictate that longer-range weapons have to fire first (or last for that matter). But each of the above situations gives the firing player extra information that they can use on their subsequent shots.

Perhaps the player whose unit is being shot at should measure these shots with an upside-down tape measure so that the shooting player doesn't get any benefit from their earlier shots when calling their later ones?

I'm not a carpenter. I don't have a perfectly formed 6" span between my fingers. And, quite honestly, winning a game of 40k isn't worth the time or effort involved in trying to memorize exactly what 12" looks like. I'm glad that some of you have these useful life skills and feel so superior to us geometrically challenged folks that you want the rules to protect your well-earned advantages. I shall simply ask for measurements when the rules tell me that I am allowed to ask for them, and if you have a problem with my nefarious schemes to dominate the tabletop based on following the rules, we will simply have to agree not to play each other.

Re:Measuring Etiquette

I grappled the shoggoth — GMT

The only time I have an issue with this is when stuff is clearly within range. All the instances redbeard mentioned are perfectly legit. The only times I have felt problems with it are when people ask you to measure shooting that is quite clearly within range. Say a rocket launcher or lascannon firing at a demon prince which is easily within 2 feet, let alone 4. Thats time for upside down tape measure. Which you cannot argue against mathematically. I want to shoot my rocket at your prince, you tell me to measure it, I pull my tape measure out to a full 4 feet, flip it upside down, and lay the squad and prince between the two end points, I am in range.

If I see someone measuring full out range on say a storm raven to boost it, and then they dont but do realize they have assault range, thats legal, but I consider it a breach of gaming etiquette.

Measuring Etiquette

Gornall — GMT

Redbeard wrote:If this came up in a case where the shooting player had two units next to each other, one with a 36" range and one with a 48" range... let's say a heavy bolter and an autocannon.

Would you object to them taking the autocannon shot first, and measuring it, prior to declaring their shots with the heavy bolter unit?

What if the overall ranges were shorter? If you have a unit of Dire Avengers (range 18") next to a Death Jester w/ Shuriken Cannon (24" range), would it be wrong to measure the Death Jester's shot first, before deciding to shoot the Dire Avengers or run them?

What if you had two weapons with the same range, but one was a more-important shot. Say I've got a unit with a heavy bolter next to a unit with a plasma cannon, and I may, or may-not be in range with them. If I declare the shots with the Heavy Bolter first, couldn't I use that measurement to decide where to place my plasma template?

To the best of my knowledge, players have done all of the above regularly, and without issue, for years. The rules don't dictate that longer-range weapons have to fire first (or last for that matter). But each of the above situations gives the firing player extra information that they can use on their subsequent shots.

Perhaps the player whose unit is being shot at should measure these shots with an upside-down tape measure so that the shooting player doesn't get any benefit from their earlier shots when calling their later ones?

I'm not a carpenter. I don't have a perfectly formed 6" span between my fingers. And, quite honestly, winning a game of 40k isn't worth the time or effort involved in trying to memorize exactly what 12" looks like. I'm glad that some of you have these useful life skills and feel so superior to us geometrically challenged folks that you want the rules to protect your well-earned advantages. I shall simply ask for measurements when the rules tell me that I am allowed to ask for them, and if you have a problem with my nefarious schemes to dominate the tabletop based on following the rules, we will simply have to agree not to play each other.

+1. If using an intelligent firing order is wrong, then I don't want to be right.

Measuring Etiquette

TopC — GMT

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:If you can do it without taking too long to complete your turn, sure.

so since your opponent can make you measure and share that measurement with well..pretty much everything.. your opponent can now make you measure EVERY distance EXACTLY, and share said information on YOUR turn. Thus.. wouldn't you be slow playing? since its your turn thats taking so long

Measuring Etiquette

puma713 — GMT

Danny Internets wrote:
carmachu wrote:
WARBOSS TZOO wrote:

That's why he's doing it, sure. But it's not what he's doing. He's asking his opponent to measure the distance between the shooting unit and the unit he's shooting at. Any information gleaned from that is entirely beside the point.

Any information gained in a like manner is cheating. And its ENTIRELY the point of him doing it. Its no different from using yoru elbow to arm. Asking me to measure a 36" gun when the distance is ~18" or less is simply trying to cheat the system. He absolutely knows that its already in range.

In order to cheat you must break a rule. What rule is being broken by, um, following the rules? Please quote the relevant passage.

Page 3, BGB. "In general, players are not allowed to measure any distance except when the rules call for it (. . .)".

Yes, it's your movement phase. You're measuring my movement and my charge range and you've made it clear to me that you're doing so because you told me what you're doing. Hence, you're not measuring your movement, you're taking a measurement that you're not entitled to take.

That rule is being broken by, um, following the rules.

Edit: Let me give you a similar analogy with a different, simpler game. Hearts. I am allowed to give my partner two cards. But I am not allowed to look at my partner's hand. So I stand up, walk around the table, put my cards that I'm giving to my partner face down in front of him and look at his cards at the same time. I broke a rule by following the rules. Could it have been done better? Sure, I could've just passed them along the table and not taken the time to glean whatever information I could from my partner's cards.

Could Dash have done it better? Sure, he could've estimated the range from his Raider to the Battlewagon and moved backward, instead of taking two measurements, one legal, and one illegal.

Measuring Etiquette

skyth — GMT

The thing is, you are NOT measuring the other distance. You are measuring the distance that the rules call for. If you learn additional information, more power to you.

In your hearts example, if you passed him two cards, without the going around and looking at his hand, you know what part of his hand is (The two cards you gave him). That is the same type of legal information that people get when they measure other things.

Measuring Etiquette

puma713 — GMT

skyth wrote:The thing is, you are NOT measuring the other distance. You are measuring the distance that the rules call for. If you learn additional information, more power to you.

Once again, he wasn't measuring the measurement that the rules called for. He was measuring his opponent's move + charge range (which is illegal). He was simply using his movement measurement to do it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

skyth wrote:The thing is, you are NOT measuring the other distance. You are measuring the distance that the rules call for. If you learn additional information, more power to you.

That is the same type of legal information that people get when they measure other things.

And that's just it. "Measuring other things" isn't legal. Page 3 of the rulebook. You're only allowed to measure what you're called on to measure. If I measured my shooting in my movement phase, then that would be against the rules. It is no different.

We're never going to agree. We're not even going to see eye to eye.

Measuring Etiquette

skyth — GMT

I'm not talking about Dash though...I'm talking about measuring weapons fire.

Measuring Etiquette

puma713 — GMT

skyth wrote:I'm not talking about Dash though...I'm talking about measuring weapons fire.

And it's absolutely no different. Using weapons fire to measure charge range is taking a measurement that you're not called upon to take. Once again, page 3. You're only allowed to take measurements that you've been called upon to take. If I measure a charge in the shooting phase, then I've taken a measurement that I'm not allowed to.

I suppose, if someone does this to me, I can simply say that once they've measured that charge (because I can't stop them. They can't suddenly "unknow" that their unit is within charge range), that their shooting phase is over and the assault phase has begun. I mean, it has obviously begun because you've moved on to measuring charge range.

Measuring Etiquette

skyth — GMT

puma713 wrote:"Measuring other things" isn't legal. Page 3 of the rulebook. You're only allowed to measure what you're called on to measure.

Nice way to break up my quote to ignore me torpedoing your hearts example. Measuring other things is what you are allowed/required to do by the rules. You can information about something legally IF you measure to something else through legal means. Funny how you never responded to the repeated questions that Redbeard and I asked about various weapon fire measurement questions. Ignoring things you can't counter doesn't bode well for your argument.

Measuring Etiquette

syanticraven — GMT

puma713 wrote:
skyth wrote:The thing is, you are NOT measuring the other distance. You are measuring the distance that the rules call for. If you learn additional information, more power to you.

Once again, he wasn't measuring the measurement that the rules called for. He was measuring his opponent's move + charge range (which is illegal). He was simply using his movement measurement to do it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

skyth wrote:The thing is, you are NOT measuring the other distance. You are measuring the distance that the rules call for. If you learn additional information, more power to you.

That is the same type of legal information that people get when they measure other things.

And that's just it. "Measuring other things" isn't legal. Page 3 of the rulebook. You're only allowed to measure what you're called on to measure. If I measured my shooting in my movement phase, then that would be against the rules. It is no different.

We're never going to agree. We're not even going to see eye to eye.

Technically if you can move 24" and you can fire 12" then if you lay the tape measure down (24"), and move exactly 12" You have then successfully measured your shooting range to. Be it accidentally or meant. It is still however a legal move. Albeit slightly stupid and argueably unsportsmanship, but still legal

Measuring Etiquette

puma713 — GMT

skyth wrote:
puma713 wrote:"Measuring other things" isn't legal. Page 3 of the rulebook. You're only allowed to measure what you're called on to measure.

Nice way to break up my quote to ignore me torpedoing your hearts example. Measuring other things is what you are allowed/required to do by the rules. You can information about something legally IF you measure to something else through legal means. Funny how you never responded to the repeated questions that Redbeard and I asked about various weapon fire measurement questions. Ignoring things you can't counter doesn't bode well for your argument.

Nah, I haven't ignored anything. Everyone on your side of the argument is saying the same thing over and over. Just like my side is. What makes me laugh, honestly, is your "measuring other things is what you're allowed /required to do by the rules." When, in fact, that is the complete opposite. I mean, show me in the rules where it says you're allowed to measure more than one thing at once. Please. Page number, paragraph number. I can cite a page and paragraph for my argument. Where's yours?

And "torpedoing" my hearts example? lol - M'kay. You didn't prove anything. While you said that I could simply pass him two cards and still have a little bit of information, that doesn't change the fact that I could still stand up and get -all- the information, using a legal rule to break another rule, which you're defending:

"You can information about something legally IF you measure to something else through legal means."

So, I can get up and legally give my partner two cards and look at his hand - breaking the rules - because I did it through legal means. Riiiiight.

Measuring Etiquette

skyth — GMT

Actually, what we're doing is knowing what two cards in his hand are because we passed them to him. Just like we know certain other distances by measuring things we are allowed to.

And we are NOT measuring multiple things. We are measuring ONE thing (That we are allowed). However, measuring that ONE thing allows us to know other distances.

Measuring Etiquette

puma713 — GMT

skyth wrote:

Measuring other things is what you are allowed/required to do by the rules.

skyth wrote:
And we are NOT measuring multiple things.

>.>

<.<

o.O

Measuring Etiquette

skyth — GMT

Comprehension fail on your part. Probably comes from taking things out of context...Which kind of shows in your argument.

Measuring Etiquette

puma713 — GMT

skyth wrote:Comprehension fail on your part.

Right. You say first that you're allowed - nay, required - to measure multiple things. Then you say you're not measuring multiple things. You're right, where did I go astray?

Anyway, since it is a permissive rulesset and you need permission to perform an action, just produce the page and paragraph that says you're allowed to use a measurement to measure more than one thing. Go ahead, I'll wait.

Edit: Scratch that, I'll just check back on the thread every once in a while.

Measuring Etiquette

skyth — GMT

And you keep on ignoring everything that doesn't agree with you and saying that I said things that I did not...How typical.

Measuring Etiquette

syanticraven — GMT

This is less a discussion of what's right and what's wrong, and more a case of "I'm right so I'm going to keep talking till everyone else agrees with me" it happens in every discussion their are opposing arguments.

I suggest people state their opinion and leave it at that before things get out of hand with proofs, counter proofs and distortions -be them right or wrong.

Re:Measuring Etiquette

kartofelkopf — GMT

Puma

It's quite simple, and it's been pointed out (repeatedly)- you're measuring for a SINGLE thing. This provides you with information that you can then use in any manner you see fit.

Am I cheating when I measure off the 6ft on an 8ft table to make sure we're playing on the proper size? That measurement provides information I can use to my advantage later.

Am I cheating when I measure 36" to find the table center, then, noting the table center, using that information to make informed decisions on future moves/shots?

It's idiotic to ramble about measuring multiple things-- any time you measure ANYTHING in the game, you're getting valuable information to use for future decisions.

Re:Measuring Etiquette

whitedragon — GMT

kartofelkopf wrote:
It's idiotic to ramble about measuring multiple things-- any time you measure ANYTHING in the game, you're getting valuable information to use for future decisions.

The rules say that doing this is in fact, illegal.

Measuring Etiquette

Frazzled — GMT

This thread is getting flamy. Opinions have been stated, time to shut 'er down.